Is using Overpower a necessary evil?

[Evendale]

The OP guard is definitely going to do more damage, but not twice as much, because the S&B can still add shield skill damage.

Way more than twice as much ...

[ImirielOfTheNorth]

Way more than twice as much ...

I totally agree.

[Steppy9]

Besides the increased DPS of the weapon and the obvious 50% and more in bonuses from traits, you are using different attacks and relying more heavily on the parry chain -- the very-fast induction Stagger plus lots of quick parry chains result in significantly higher damage potential than the normal one-hander attack sequences and heavy reliance on slow-induction block chains. Adds up fast - harder hitting weapon, huge damage bonus from traits, faster and harder hitting attacks in core group of skills -- doubling your DPS is not at all far-fetched.

[Boffadoc]

I just read the "Guards using OP at lower level" thread...

My guard is level 40, doing a lot of solo work right now, so traited for OP (4 red + harasser). I'm finding that to be awesome; I can wade through mobs of at level foes with great speed... but after reading that thread, I can see that I'm going to really amp up my OP in the next 6 levels. That's going to be fun...

[Dwarendele]

Just like you i ignored OP till i hit 65 and started to do instances for end game gear - i found that there was a few 3-man instances where depending on your party make-up we didn't have enough DPS to beat the run - Sword hall in Mirk comes to mind - the only solution was for me to tank in OP to add to our DPS output - this worked like a charm and i now switch to OP quite a bit during runs when A. we need more DPS to win or B. we got it down and I switch to OP to speed the killing up and C. I want to show off and get back at all the toons who have been laughing at my damage for the last 65 levels - a traited guard in OP has the 3rd highest DPS in the game - period!

It is a bear to work on the skills all at once - and in a perfect world we work on them as we level - but its totally do-able to catch up after the fact and you will come to love it.... but still I prefer to roll S&B most of the time and only whip out the two hander when i feel frosty

Good luck
D

PS yes it is evil - as in evil wicked cool lol

[Boffadoc]

... and C. I want to show off and get back at all the toons who have been laughing at my damage for the last 65 levels - a traited guard in OP has the 3rd highest DPS in the game - period!

Keep mum about this, or someone might start a campaign to get OP nerfed...

[Linwe-Elfmaiden]

Evandale summed it up perfectly! (+rep to you!)

Work those traits and become familiar with those skills... there are a few times when you will really need them! ( In the Ost Donhoth wound wing, in the "gauntlet-style" race you could potentially get your raid wiped if you sword and board... it is a straight up DPS race and every bit of FAST damage is vital...)

[horus418]

How sustainable is power going all out in OP?

[NamelessZombie]

I can not stress this enough:

Go with what you prefer to play and don't let anyone change your mind over it. I, personally, am not a fan of OP. I feel it is much more keeping with the dwarven appeal of an axe and shield. Some prefer the 2haxe, both are good.

If you don't enjoy OP, as I don't, being able to kick out a ???? ton of DPS is not going to do you one bit of good. If I want to use a 2h weapon (And I do sometimes) I jump on my champion. Someone who is not having fun, just does not do their job well.

If your instance run is plod, hit key, plod, hit key, hit key, turn, sigh, hit key, sign, plod ... well you get the point.

So long as you are holding aggro, tell anyone who tells you "Thats the wrong way to do it" to piss off.. or let them and them only die a few times ~.^

[Zaestro]

How sustainable is power going all out in OP?

There are several different routes to managing it...be it through power restore legacies / cost reductions and/or traiting...careful rotations to include use of power restore skills at times for maximal effect. Takes some knowledge and experience but is very doable...burgs and rk's seem to have more trouble than me going all-out dps during 3-mans.

[Evendale]

being able to kick out a ???? ton of DPS is not going to do you one bit of good

That's not really true -> refer to my first post.

There are several different routes to managing it...be it through power restore legacies / cost reductions and/or traiting...careful rotations to include use of power restore skills at times for maximal effect. Takes some knowledge and experience but is very doable...burgs and rk's seem to have more trouble than me going all-out dps during 3-mans.

Yea, other than in large AoE fights where you get a tonne of parrys, your power will drop fairly quickly; however if you use the power restore trait + use TTH & ToD frequently, and eat food often, you can usually get by without running out of power too much. And fights go so much quicker anyway, so your power doesn't need to last all that long .

We're definitely better at power management than Burgs (except maybe Burgs with the full DN set), and seem to be about equal with Hunters.

Of course with enough rallying crys you can last indefinitely.

[horus418]

Thanks for the info.

So, in order to keep up power in OP you have to have aggro for reactives, is that right?

Rallying cries are a power chuggers dream.

[Zaestro]

Thanks for the info.

So, in order to keep up power in OP you have to have aggro for reactives, is that right?

Rallying cries are a power chuggers dream.

Agree on rally cries...and yes, having parries come in freely (and proc'ing power restores, if you go that route) helps sustain dps with less power consumption...but not absolutely necessary. FO is a power hog, comparatively, especially if it is BPE'd anyway sometimes...but we get by

[Steppy9]

Just to scale out the kind of power consumption curve, I offer my experience using OP mode to beat down the cauldron in Northcotton Farms. We're doing this tier 2 style - no buckets thrown on the fire - so you're racing the clock with your DPS. I usually have to use one power potion in that fight. Of course, you can assume our captain isn't getting any Rallying Cries because the only thing that dies is the cauldron at the end. Oddly, you DO get parry chains in this fight - not sure exactly how that works - and you can trigger them with Force Opening if you need. My power pool is roughly 2500 give or take.

[Zamia]

Just like you i ignored OP till i hit 65 and started to do instances for end game gear - i found that there was a few 3-man instances where depending on your party make-up we didn't have enough DPS to beat the run - Sword hall in Mirk comes to mind - the only solution was for me to tank in OP to add to our DPS output - this worked like a charm and i now switch to OP quite a bit during runs when A. we need more DPS to win or B. we got it down and I switch to OP to speed the killing up and C. I want to show off and get back at all the toons who have been laughing at my damage for the last 65 levels - a traited guard in OP has the 3rd highest DPS in the game - period!

It is a bear to work on the skills all at once - and in a perfect world we work on them as we level - but its totally do-able to catch up after the fact and you will come to love it.... but still I prefer to roll S&B most of the time and only whip out the two hander when i feel frosty

Good luck
D

PS yes it is evil - as in evil wicked cool lol

Guardians do not have the 3rd highest DPS in the game. Hunters/RK/Champs are top 3 and you have to consider power issues, DPS over time ect.

[chazcon3]

OP/2h is great for soloing. I only pull out the shield and go into Block stance if I get in trouble.

OP/2h is great for an off-tank. The cool thing is you are an insurance policy for your fellowship in case the main tank gets in trouble.

The notion that Guardians don't do much DPS is hogwash. Read Forohir's guide. Use his method. Properly set up and played, an OP/2h Guardian can do tremendous damage. One of the great debates that is sure to start a flame-fest is whether a Guardian played this way can out-DPS a Champion on single targets. Compared to most Champions, it is true.

OP/2h is handy for a main tank to use, at the end of a battle when you are all whacking on one remaining mob and you have already established a solid aggro lock.

OP/2h is great for a main tank to use if your group is cutting down trash mobs.

OP/2h is a poor way to main tank and try to establish, and maintain aggro. Guardians who 'always tank in OP' are fooling themselves and endangering their fellowships.

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

Sometimes I will trait all-DPS for soloing and very occasionally stay traited this way in a fellowship, if I am providing DPS only and don't expect to main tank at all. My damage ouput is noticeably higher than being traited for main tanking and being in OP/2h. And then to flip it, when setup this way and soloing someplace tough like Urugarth, I will occasionally pull out my shiled, not to tank but to protect myself and heal up before going OP/2h again to finish the fight.

[Evendale]

OP/2h is great for soloing. I only pull out the shield and go into Block stance if I get in trouble.

OP/2h is great for an off-tank. The cool thing is you are an insurance policy for your fellowship in case the main tank gets in trouble.

The notion that Guardians don't do much DPS is hogwash. Read Forohir's guide. Use his method. Properly set up and played, an OP/2h Guardian can do tremendous damage. One of the great debates that is sure to start a flame-fest is whether a Guardian played this way can out-DPS a Champion on single targets. Compared to most Champions, it is true.

OP/2h is handy for a main tank to use, at the end of a battle when you are all whacking on one remaining mob and you have already established a solid aggro lock.

OP/2h is great for a main tank to use if your group is cutting down trash mobs.

OP/2h is a poor way to main tank and try to establish, and maintain aggro. Guardians who 'always tank in OP' are fooling themselves and endangering their fellowships.

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

Sometimes I will trait all-DPS for soloing and very occasionally stay traited this way in a fellowship, if I am providing DPS only and don't expect to main tank at all. My damage ouput is noticeably higher than being traited for main tanking and being in OP/2h. And then to flip it, when setup this way and soloing someplace tough like Urugarth, I will occasionally pull out my shiled, not to tank but to protect myself and heal up before going OP/2h again to finish the fight.

A) If you are out dpsing a Champ against a single target, they aren't very good (or maybe you have SB and they don't). Even if you are out dpsing them against a single target, then they can always go trait CBR...

I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative dps, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

B) Go read my first post in this thread. There is nothing wrong with traiting 5 red for all non-raid content - in fact, you may as well trait this way by default because its better most of the time. Also, if you don't generate more threat in OP than you do in Block stance, then you are very very very bad at using it.

[Zaestro]

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

The above quote from a guard that has not hit level cap yet, is a perfect example of the "self-justifying" that people do to try to avoid the work of setting up specific builds and LI's for OP play, for survival tanking and for max-threat tanking. I have 6 keeper LI's, two for each specific purpose...also setting myself up for cross-swaps of LI's for increasing duration of some cd's across the builds without having to "waste" a legacy slot mutliple times that is easily reusable. One should trait for purpose as well.

Any less would be to self-nerf / self-limit from reaching our fullest capacities...there is no justification beyond laziness.

[chazcon3]

B) Go read my first post in this thread. There is nothing wrong with traiting 5 red for all non-raid content - in fact, you may as well trait this way by default because its better most of the time. Also, if you don't generate more threat in OP than you do in Block stance, then you are very very very bad at using it.

All I can say to this ridiculous blather is: I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative aggro, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

It's a FACT that you cannot perform the function of a Main Tank in OP stance better than or even equal to a Guard in Block, Threat, or even Parry stance. Period. Foolish waste of energy, all the epeen about OP tanking.

[chazcon3]

The above quote from a guard that has not hit level cap yet, is a perfect example of the "self-justifying" that people do to try to avoid the work of setting up specific builds and LI's for OP play, for survival tanking and for max-threat tanking. I have 6 keeper LI's, two for each specific purpose...also setting myself up for cross-swaps of LI's for increasing duration of some cd's across the builds without having to "waste" a legacy slot mutliple times that is easily reusable. One should trait for purpose as well.

Any less would be to self-nerf / self-limit from reaching our fullest capacities...there is no justification beyond laziness.

lol I LOVE these posts. Empowered by the knowledge of how to look up a poster's level, the self-righteous boldly attempt to discredit said poster based on a combination of blind assumption and ignorance.

But of course, how could you possibly know that I have played LOTRO for four years and have leveled more Guardians alone that you have characters?

[Zaestro]

You admitted in another thread you were only level 58 as you claimed to have never had engage resist.

Also, you have been famously spouting ill-conceived and ill-informed information in short-term bursts ever since i have been participating in the forum...posting heavily for a week or two: e-peen, inaccuracies and intentionally inflammatory "blather" as you so eloquently put it...then disappearing for weeks or months in between.

That is all that I need to know. Playing the game alone does not intelligence, skill or correct knowledge bestow.

[Evendale]

All I can say to this ridiculous blather is: I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative aggro, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

It's a FACT that you cannot perform the function of a Main Tank in OP stance better than or even equal to a Guard in Block, Threat, or even Parry stance. Period. Foolish waste of energy, all the epeen about OP tanking.

That is such fail rhetoric. Clearly meters can be used for dps (and are the only way to measure dps output very accurately), whereas who has aggro is directly observable in game. That's all that needs to be said about that. State inaccurate information as if you know it to be fact and you will be shut down. Recognize your uncertainty when stating inaccurate information, and people will politely correct you.

The developers of this game have made it easier to generate threat in OP stance than in Block/Parry stance. That's just the way the game is designed. They don't want it to be too easy for tanks.

Generating threat isn't the only function of a tanking Guard.

[harman097]

OP/2h is great for soloing. I only pull out the shield and go into Block stance if I get in trouble.

OP/2h is great for an off-tank. The cool thing is you are an insurance policy for your fellowship in case the main tank gets in trouble.

The notion that Guardians don't do much DPS is hogwash. Read Forohir's guide. Use his method. Properly set up and played, an OP/2h Guardian can do tremendous damage. One of the great debates that is sure to start a flame-fest is whether a Guardian played this way can out-DPS a Champion on single targets. Compared to most Champions, it is true.

OP/2h is handy for a main tank to use, at the end of a battle when you are all whacking on one remaining mob and you have already established a solid aggro lock.

OP/2h is great for a main tank to use if your group is cutting down trash mobs.

Yes.

OP/2h is a poor way to main tank and try to establish, and maintain aggro. Guardians who 'always tank in OP' are fooling themselves and endangering their fellowships.

No. You can generate more aggro than while in block. There are also many instances in which its better that not everything is hitting one person and you're better off having things die faster to get more rallying cries rolling in (Lost Temple, any 6-man run with just cappy heals, ALL 3-mans, imo). Guardians who refuse to ever tank in OP are fooling themselves, unnecessarily slowing down many runs, and, in certain fights, endangering their fellowships.

A person can get completely carried away with gear and trait changes. I try to keep it simple (going against my nature in the process). I see my primary job as being a main tank and all of my gear, traits, skill choices and rotations, and playstyle is focused towards being the best main tank I can be. I use ONE Guardian Belt, one 1h sword, and one 2h sword. The traits I normally run around in are for maximum effectiveness while main tanking. I can switch from sword & shield to OP/2h quickly in combat as necessary This setup provides flexibility and a good deal of damage output.

If you're going to overpower tank anything you should absolutely not trait for S/B tanking so that, on the occasions that you switch to block for a little bit, you are most effective. The difference between trying to overpower tank things with yellows and blues vs 5 reds + cap is much greater than the difference between trying to S/B tank things with 5 reds + cap vs yellows and blues.

If you're going to spend 75% of the instance in block, sure, trait for block. However, like I said above, I don't think this is ideal for numerous scenarios.


edited off the ending due to unnecessary hostility. it was early, idk...

[Carmmond]

I have ran in OP from a very early lvl.... 30ish?

Finaly at lvl 65 and end game I find myself having time to go back and get my counts up for shield-taunt and fray the edge for my trait sets..... no lie

[Malephor]

All I can say to this ridiculous blather is: I'm so sick of people making statements based on flawed perceptions. If you wanna make claims about relative aggro, use freaking meters, and use them lots. Then come back and make an educated post instead of pure guesswork.

It's a FACT that you cannot perform the function of a Main Tank in OP stance better than or even equal to a Guard in Block, Threat, or even Parry stance. Period. Foolish waste of energy, all the epeen about OP tanking.

I find it really funny that you picked the person you picked, and told them to go try parsing stuff on their OP guard. Not sure you could have picked a worse choice there. Just saying.

FACT

Lol.

Main Tank

Please define the role of Main Tank for me. Do you mean, simply holding aggro? Do you mean holding aggro and surviving? What specific jobs do you consider blending together to make the role of Main Tank?

My definition is that the main tank needs to be able to hold aggro on stuff the squishier members of the group cannot survive having aggro on, and to be not-squishy enough to survive that aggro as well. In addition, a main tank, if both of those is fulfilled, should be further adding to the group, through additional dps to speed up the run, or iutility jobs(interrupts, CR), or self heals to allow the healer to dps/buff and speed up the run. An OP guard can certainly hold aggro as well as, if not better than a block stance guard, as proven by the better guards out there. An OP guard is certainly not-squishy enough to survive tanking, as proven by them tanking the majority of the content in the game. An OP guard can certainly perform all the utility of a SnB guard, and additionally put out much higher dps. Why exactly can an OP guard not match a SnB guard as a tank?