An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

[SaintBass]

i think the main problem, and this is my opinion too, is that they JUST revamped the trait lines. If he wanted to do more he should have done it with the hunter update or postponed the hunter update until he COULD get it all done... the underlying issue is we just got a complete *and good* revamp. What is the point in changing it AGAIN. That is the stupid part, what isengard needs to do to the 6 classes who received an udpate is add new skills, and add new traits into the lines...but not rework the lines again. Also Isengard needs to add 5 set bonuses to match the burgs now. And maybe even add 6 and 7 set bonuses past slotting the cap stone... What Isengard doesn't need to do is completely revamp traitlines that JUST got revamped. Perfect the changes and tweak them is the most we should see.

I definitely understand the point about the class having just been worked over, but over time, it has been one of the more neglected and seemingly more difficult class to balance. I also agree that the class functions really well right now... and if there is any complaint its in the lack of certain skill functionality and shallowness of play (as others have mentioned).

One thing that makes me much more welcoming of these (potential) changes is that in the past, changes would be made and they weren't always that great (BKs 10 and 11, MoM BK 7) and we would get these promises to review the changes. Now I see a very different approach, where Turbine has made some really good, measured changes and seeing how those have played out, is putting in the effort to be closer to its design ideals and (hopefully) more engaging to play.

I have leveled a lot of criticism at Turbine in the past for seemingly senseless changes and poor communication... so when I actually see logic to some changes and see continuity in development, I don't really sweat it too much. Of course I want to see the details of these changes and give more specific feedback... and I may not even be that fond of the end result (I did suggest the initial ideas for Fleet Stance on these boards), but I will at the very least participate in the discussion and see what the changes are before I protest them.

[CWood]

i think the main problem ... is that they JUST revamped the trait lines.

That's part of my issue with it, as is the fact that broad changes like this are going to have balance issues.

===

One thing to consider: If they're doing another overhaul this quickly on the heels of the last one, the last one must have failed to achieve its goal. Given the direction the last few updates have been moving, I suspect that Huntsman-based Focus burn builds have been decided to be against the intent of the class, and this is the Final Solution.

Honestly, though, I'm just looking forward to the forum ****storm this is going to cause when it hits. It's gonna be a fun time on the hunter boards for a while.

[Lithium777]

I have leveled a lot of criticism at Turbine in the past for seemingly senseless changes and poor communication... so when I actually see logic to some changes and see continuity in development, I don't really sweat it too much. Of course I want to see the details of these changes and give more specific feedback... and I may not even be that fond of the end result (I did suggest the initial ideas for Fleet Stance on these boards), but I will at the very least participate in the discussion and see what the changes are before I protest them.

If the changes are good I won't have many problem's... I just don't see the communication here or logic in changing the lines, then turning about and changing then so drastically again. Even from the little information giving it definitely shows a plan to drastically alter the lines, again. Which I just don't understand at all. Now however... if they are giving alternative capstones with this and leaving the originals in place I am all for a legendary trait that changes the function of the line a bit. However, I don't think that is whats going on here.

One thing to consider: If they're doing another overhaul this quickly on the heels of the last one, the last one must have failed to achieve its goal. Given the direction the last few updates have been moving, I suspect that Huntsman-based Focus burn builds have been decided to be against the intent of the class, and this is the Final Solution.

Which would be odd because they actually said to be the intent of the line... which was a good line. Though if they keep doing this I don't see a final solution ever happening. What they should do is just add a 4th line and new traits to accompany it. This would be the best solution and not have wasted monthes of design and testing for something that isn't even going to stay in game a full 12 monthes. Because that's basicly what this boils down to. Wasted content development time. What should have happened is testing on Alpha, or anywhere between there and BR and if they didn't like it...which I actually think they did tbh, but if they didn't scrap it before it hit BR, much less live. Or only pushed through what would definitely work... maybe trait changes but not other changes like the line changes. The point being they should have either done all the changes they wanted NOW or take the time and release it later, weather that later date be Isengard or earlier I could care less. Point being doing two complete revamps in the space of the year is a waste off resources. Not to mention time and the players level of tolerance. I welcome class updates, stuff almost always needs tweaking but this is absurd.

Though Trapper of Foes I AM looking forward too, less CC could mean as little as removing Pen Shot root, which is less CC technically while imrpvign DPS and utility... I would LOVE a utility line that didn't nerf DPS outside of not traiting DPS, which as mentioned is a hefty penalty as is. The amount of utility a hunter could bring which roots, fears, back up mezes, crafted traps of all natures. A trait for allowing tripwires in combat maybe? Or a trait that detaches the shared cooldown between traps? Those would be helpful and much appreciated as well as modifications and maybe new trap skills and crafted traps that go beyond just simple roots and snares. Make the name trapper of foes mean just that. Utility and mid level DPS would be fantastic.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Alright, what if they did not touch Huntsman quite so much as buff/add a few melee skills? Huntsman can already shoot on the move so why not enhance that ability and integrate melee into the rotation by adding melee skills that burn/add focus without losing DPS? Scourge strike as it stands is mostly unused but if the skill consumes a Barbed Arrow it could return focus. Low Cut could be given a line bonus to proc so that combined with the LI it would have 100% chance to bleed.

A melee skill that consumes focus would be nice. It would be really nice if it burnt all focus at any given time in exchange for different effects dependent upon how much focus was burnt. That might be a trite difficult to code for though. Oh and maybe adding in a critical response skill would be nice.

(Disclaimer: That said the Hunstman line is fine-as-is. If it comes between adding melee skills or taking away the mobile sweet Hunstman that lets me PS in PS, the fast BA'ing before a BA or SB without ever SB'ing, I'll take the ranged mobile Hunstman that comes out with top DPS.)

Regarding the ToF, it would help greatly if the trap/snare did more damage. Penetrating Shot is the really big killer of DPS, if it were changed to a debuff it would make ToF more viable in a group and might still be in line with the cost/benefits of traiting ToF.

EDIT: Real biggy that I DO Want is for the traps/snares when traited ToF to become AoE. Totally imbalanced but there's ways around it like limiting it to 1-2 targets without the LI. Come to think of it, why wouldn't the LI increase the number of mobs effected by traps?

[Elderban]

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

Good. I always used most of the Bowmaster traits, but never ran in Strength stance, always Precision. The greater chances of missing, fewer crits, higher chance of aggro and higher power loss in Strength stance just wasn't worth using it for a few more DPS.

BTW, didn't Hunters already have an update?

Sad to hear that Trapper will be less CC though.

[PhantomPunkk]

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

Oh my Science, making the Hunter more melee oriented? I've VERY low expectations but who knows, maybe it won't be a crushing failure that completely goes against the established functionality and conventions of the class. But I doubt it. Why another update so soon? Seems unneeded. Then again...from the sound of it. All the changes are aimed at diluting all three roles and are the epitome of things unneeded.

[slack_n_hash]

Even when I'm tanking a mob in melee range I only occasionally buff my parry rating with the melee skill, and that is the only useful melee skill besides our slow. if you're using melee skills you arn't gonna hold agro anyway.

IMHO, a hunter melee tanking should be using melee skills to:
- have the parry buff up continuously
- daze as often as possible
- interrupt
- build focus (no induction is even more useful in melee)

The more damage you avoid, the less chance you'll lose aggro to the healer, and if the hunter is tanking you probably don't have other dps classes to compete with.


NOTE: I'm not saying that hunters need more melee skills, or buffs to them!

I could see further induction reductions helping close range fights though.

[moduz]

Seriously...
Give them a chance before you start qq-ing about the changes. Lets see where they want to take this. A line with better melee skills could be quite nice depending on how its done. It really doesn't make much sense to have two ranged dps trait lines anyway. And as far a trapper of foes is concerned, I see tons of complaints about how the line is bad because the damage output is so low. If they intend to increase the line's dps while easing off on its cc a LITTLE, making the line one that a hunter could trait more than just situationally, then I am all for it. These changes could allow for more play styles than are currently available i.e. making the hunter a better, more versatile, and more enjoyable class.
The only way for that these changes could turn out to be terrible is if we destroy the lines on communication with the developers by launching into THESE CHANGES WILL BE TERRIBLE! tirades on the forums. Try to see their vision for the class and ask questions instead of attacking. We can help to shape the class so long as we don't deter them from listening to us.
--Modus

[CharlesRollinsWare]

Seriously...
Give them a chance before you start qq-ing about the changes. Lets see where they want to take this. ...snipped ... The only way for that these changes could turn out to be terrible is if we destroy the lines on communication with the developers by launching into THESE CHANGES WILL BE TERRIBLE! tirades on the forums. Try to see their vision for the class ... snipped

Why??? We just had a freaking total revamp - one that I happen to love - but none the less, one that required a total revamp in how I played. Now, three months later we are going to be totally revamped again. Say what??? Go change the other classes that have been crying for changes forever.

I don't want my hunter to be a god that does everything. I want an archer. I wouldn't mind having some kind of stalk ability like a Warden has because that IS a hunter skill. Hunters have a bunch of melee skills NOW that do what they should do - put debuffs on so you can get back out of melee range and use your bow.

Why is it that Turbine feels the need to have somebody redesigning the same class 2-3 times a year while other classes have remainded basically unchanged since I started playing. Fix my dang Burglar skills so they actually work and leave my Hunter that does work alone.

All I want for Christmas is the ability to tackle new content WITHOUT having to totally relearn how to play the class I have played since the day I joined.

[Yosoff]

Why??? We just had a freaking total revamp - one that I happen to love - but none the less, one that required a total revamp in how I played. Now, three months later we are going to be totally revamped again. Say what??? Go change the other classes that have been crying for changes forever.

Remember that it was ZC that made the current changes that you happen to love. Unlike previous hunter devs, he's earned a little trust.

Look at our current melee skills. Blindside=3 focus, Agile Rejoinder=Heal, Swift Stroke=Parry/Evade. Where are the melee skills that used for DPS? Look at the melee related class traits, I can only think of 1 off the top of my head and it's a joke. If he's going to give melee a buff or 10, I'm not going to complain. But if we have to sacrifice ranged DPS to get it I'm going to be extremely upset.

Let's wait for more information and then complain about the specific things that we don't like.

[nolins12]

Why would one class get 2 updates before others even get one?

[drexele]

i agree on getting less inductions ive had fights where i accidently pull in 1 reg mob and 3 swarms which as far as morale/dmg goes is no prob at all however when i try somehting like qs it takes like 5 times as long making me loose about half my hp

something else id like to see is something added to blood arrow becouse at the moment it is the exact same as pen shot (unless there is a legacy that i havnt seen yet that buffs it after all i only just reached 53)

and i think we should get more skills, and when one of u said 20 new ones thats over exagerating we only get skills on our even lvls and ever since i reached like 30 its every four lvls and now about evey 10 almost so id expect about 5 or less new skills

[FyreBrand]

i agree on getting less inductions ive had fights where i accidently pull in 1 reg mob and 3 swarms which as far as morale/dmg goes is no prob at all however when i try somehting like qs it takes like 5 times as long making me loose about half my hp

something else id like to see is something added to blood arrow becouse at the moment it is the exact same as pen shot (unless there is a legacy that i havnt seen yet that buffs it after all i only just reached 53)

and i think we should get more skills, and when one of u said 20 new ones thats over exagerating we only get skills on our even lvls and ever since i reached like 30 its every four lvls and now about evey 10 almost so id expect about 5 or less new skills

With my current trait setup I have 51 hunter skills. I also have 11 other non-class related skills and then there are consumable clickies.

That is a lot of skills to manage, not that complexity is a bad thing. Consider how long different combat situations last. Solo combat lasts a very short time as it's mostly a dps race versus your morale bar. Small group combat and skimirshes similarly last a short time against trash and slightly longer against bosses. Even long boss raid fights don't incorporate the entire use of a skill bar.

So when considering how many skills are enough think about how many skills can and should be used in rotation during fights and how additional skills would (or wouldn't) add to the effectiveness or fun of combat.

That is why I'm not in favor of blanket skill additions just for the sake of measuring character progression. In other words, character progression could be measured in better ways than simply adding skills. Adding skills should be to flesh out character functionality and have a specific purpose behind their addition.

[Lithium777]

What no class in this game needs, every update, or even at all is more skills. Skill bloat in the game is getting unwieldy. Possibly some new traits might be interesting, but skills no. When every action bar is jam packed with skills (what is that 60 slots?) there doesn't need to be more icons/clickies as a measure of progression.

Next to Warden's Hunter's have the least amount of active skills in the game, with the travel plugin added i have 1 and a half skill bars empty of skills (minimum!) and just filled with consumables, shortcuts(even to emotes!), not skills. and before you ask, yes I have every skill except ports on my skill bar. So not sure what you're going on about this time.

IMHO, a hunter melee tanking should be using melee skills to:
- have the parry buff up continuously
- daze as often as possible
- interrupt
- build focus (no induction is even more useful in melee)

The more damage you avoid, the less chance you'll lose aggro to the healer, and if the hunter is tanking you probably don't have other dps classes to compete with.

Maybe, the parry buff you're right about. Interupt shouldn't be worked into a normal rotation though, I personally don't ever run out of focus even with a full focus burn rotation.

Edit: I am all for a buff to melee skills if they want to do it... fine go for it. I just don't think they need to revamp the trait lines after they just did.

[FyreBrand]

Next to Warden's Hunter's have the least amount of active skills in the game, with the travel plugin added i have 1 and a half skill bars empty of skills (minimum!) and just filled with consumables, shortcuts(even to emotes!), not skills. and before you ask, yes I have every skill except ports on my skill bar. So not sure what you're going on about this time.



Maybe, the parry buff you're right about. Interupt shouldn't be worked into a normal rotation though, I personally don't ever run out of focus even with a full focus burn rotation.

Edit: I am all for a buff to melee skills if they want to do it... fine go for it. I just don't think they need to revamp the trait lines after they just did.

What don't you get? 51 skills is still a lot and how many skills other classes have is irrelevant. We don't need more skills just for the sake of having them. What added functionality is needed to the hunter skill set that can't be incorporated into an existing skill or trait function? So I don't really get what you're going on about. Skills for the sake of adding skills is poor design. Do you actually have a reason to add more skills?

Lua mods aren't a reason to add (or not) more skills. I don't run mods at all and requiring their use for functionality is also bad design. Mods break with updates, often have bugs, and aren't always continually supported by the author which can leave users hanging when the client changes. Mods should never be a reason to change basic gameplay (adding skills or not, combat mechanics, etc).

Outside of this crazy idea that updates must mean skill bloat, and without any more details, the basic idea that hunters can have a melee focused build and untying S:S from BM sound good. I'm curious how ToF will end up. I think it's a lot like champs ardour, in that it can be used, but is always marginalized by BM and HM.

The sooner we can get some info about ToF and the other changes, the better.

[Sonsy]

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

Bowmaster is currently a solid line for hunters, particularly with the lowering of threat and power penalties and the makeover to Burn Hot. As a hunter who primarily runs in Precision Stance, I think doing away with the trait set bonuses that apply only in Strength Stance would make this line more attractive.

Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.

Referring to melee combat around hunters makes us nervous. While our melee skills have their uses, we know that even up close our best bet is to shoot stuff point-blank. Bonuses that involve melee skills are not going to fly.

I like the current Hunstman line for the traits that help with focus as well as the reduced inductions from the trait set bonuses. Basically, things that allow us to use our bow skills in melee. Personally, I also like Hunstman for groups for the higher attack rate. I might not have the burst damage I'd have with BM, but I think I come out ahead in the long run.

The short version: Hunstman is good for letting us use bow skills in melee combat...don't try to make us use actual melee skills!

Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

This may not be a bad thing. ToF is a combination of two hunter roles that are not necessarily related...crowd control and low-threat dps. It's always been sad that the threat-lowering traits in the Trapper line come at the cost of damage. It may be smart to trait lower-threat for a raid, it's not smart to gimp your dps. Most hunters hide from ToF.

I've actually been using ToF for the trash pulls in the disease, poison, and boss wings of OD. Traited for ToF (and a helpful legacy), a hunter is a CC machine. I have more CC skills available than I can coordinate the use of, quite frankly.

The bad thing about ToF is that a hunter can't permalock anything without traiting the ToF capstone. Without the capstone, you are only good as an emergency backup to someone else. There's no middle ground.

The short version: Split up CC from Endurance stance since the two are essentially mutually exclusive. If CC remains one of the trait lines, provide some middle ground so we have at least a roundabout way to perma-CC something (rotate Bard's and Distracting Shot, for instance) without needing the capstone.

[Lithium777]

What don't you get? 51 skills is still a lot and how many skills other classes have is irrelevant. We don't need more skills just for the sake of having them. What added functionality is needed to the hunter skill set that can't be incorporated into an existing skill or trait function? So I don't really get what you're going on about. Skills for the sake of adding skills is poor design. Do you actually have a reason to add more skills?

new skills can be skill upgrades. Any level cap upgrade comes with new skills of some form. It's inevitable. You don't like it, dont buy the expansion. Beneath Care was a new skill that replaced beneath Notice, whats wrong with that? Chill out.

[Highcyde]

Of course it depends how this all plays out. However, the developers have always seemed to have an interest in making hunters melee and bow fighters. They put might on our items, they put in useless melee traits, they make a legendary slot a melee weapon, etc.

The last update was great, both for sorting out some traits, but also because it seemed to be finally acknowledging that we aren't a melee class. The update was mostly positive in my view because it made 3 usable trait lines. I *like* this. It makes the class fun.

Turning huntsman into a melee+bow line goes in the opposite direction. It reduces the viable traitlines to 2: high aggro burst damage and CC. BTW, I don't have much interest in either of these. Now, it is certainly possible that ZC will maintain the 3 viable lines while adding some melee functionality, but that is not at all how his initial post reads. It might be that he disconnects traits from stances which would add a ton of flexibility to trait lines and builds. It may even be that he does this without nerfing anything (though I think this is exceedingly unlikely based on what I know of prior updates).

But on the off-chance that this can end well, I don't really believe it I'm just trying to be a good citizen, the only melee I'm interested in has some sort of dual functionality. Blindside: interrupt, focus; dazing blow: stun; AR: heal. I have no others in any quickslot and it is extremely unlikely I will add any that do not match that level of functionality. I will never put a melee skill in a quickslot simply because it does melee damage. If I wanted a champ, I'd roll one.

Finally, the last update maintained the possibility that hunters can be premier dps, at least among the non-premium classes. ZCs proposal seems to point in the direction of lame utility class. If so, I'm not interested.

If the developers want to fix something they could start with scaling the skills that haven't had any along with the LI legacies that are useless. They could combine focus and induction crit, there is no reason to punish hunters in this regard, they could either dump or combined the ranged evade and block mitigation, and they could add new LI legacies that, for example, might boost Strength of the Earth in a real way. They could add an LI legacy that makes BN an aggro dump, etc. etc.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

The absolute last thing I want to be turned into is a utility class. I want one specific major role - DPS. I don't want to become a failsauce warden with a bow. Don't buff my melee damage, give me some range upgrades if anything. Give me burst damage like a tactical god-mode RK or minstrel.



Here's the dilemma though, increased DPS needs to be off-set with a decrease in survivability. This is why Blood-Arrow was one of the most thoughtful additions to the class I've seen. I would love to see a new stance/legacy/upgrade where DPS could be increased at the expense of morale/survivability/avoidances. I'd also like to see some more skills with low base/big crits that cost morale.



And, when can we get Focus + Induction criticals either upgraded or combined if they are to remain at +25%?

[SerowLOTRO]

What no class in this game needs, every update, or even at all is more skills. Skill bloat in the game is getting unwieldy. Possibly some new traits might be interesting, but skills no. When every action bar is jam packed with skills (what is that 60 slots?) there doesn't need to be more icons/clickies as a measure of progression.

Totally agree. Ever seen some videos of DDO? That was a game where there were so many skillbars (all packed with item clickies). I love D&D, but that aspect of DDO really turned me off.

And on topic, I think skill upgrades would be nice. Maybe Blood Arrow will have a small AOE? Maybe Cry of the Predator will become AOE? Maybe our Trap and Snare will have their cooldowns unlinked? Maybe we won't need to use multiple item slots for all the various crafted traps anymore? (I think ZC mentioned the possibility of this in the last hunter update.) Maybe Bow of the Righteous will work based on a percent of maximum power (say 0.5 - 1% per shot) instead of a fixed number? Looking forward to more blog updates on this!

[Bhoris_the_spider]

It wouldn't suprise me if zombie has recently re-watched the LOTR trilogy and thought to himself.. 'Hmm, hunter's need to be more like Legolas'. In fact, it was stated in the post about Champions that champs are based on Gimli and because he didnt use a shield then neither should champs, even when tanking.

No class will every be perfect but Hunters are far from being in a bad place. Why the need for another update so soon after the previous one?

[Masterli89]

Please Noo! I just made a new hunter and wanted to explore some of the new updates, now I hear you're changing them! No! Go Bye Bye!

[Surmoth]

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

Hmm, I have mixed feelings about this really. As it currently stands I love the Huntsman line and use that all the time, its perfect, I don't want much changes there.

In fact, the only thing I'd like to change is the animation time for the Burn Hot skill, other then that I'm happy about the current state of the hunter. The next update can feature some skill boosts, but not more skills. We already have a LOT of skills, no need for more, just improvements.

[Dom12]

I have a bit of an update on Blogs, shamelessly copied from Orion.

Some of you may have noticed that Kelsen put up a bundle of blogs two days ago http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/ on his my.lotro.com page and Orion talked about them in a Champion thread. As you can see by that little snippet of information, we are going to attempt to do blogs for upcoming class changes. That being said, I am hoping to post the first iteration of my proposed changes to the Hunter up soon.

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

Between the fact that, like several have mentioned, we just got an update, and the odd direction ZC suggests we might be going here.. I honestly had to look back and make sure this wasn't posted on April 1.....

[Lucanthanas]

I want to give you something to chew on and speculate, postulate and discuss:

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.
Huntsman: A true Bow and Blade warrior.
Trapper of Foes: Less crowd control, more of everything else.

Personaly, before actually seeing what they have in mind, I only have issues with the ToF line. Why remove CC? I personally love CC. I'm traitted in ToF line even while solo because of it (only 2 deep, but still).
What is wrong with the ToF line is not having too much CC.
- The problem is the DPS penalty which is just too much considering you will be loosing all the benefits from the other two lines. - remove it or reduce it to 5% (total)
- The problem is that you cannot place the two trap skills we have simultaneously. - separate the cooldowns
- The problem is that we can only track one creature at a time, making it not a viable possibility to avoid an enemy in stealth missions. - make the racial traking skills toggle skills that show us all the enemies of that type on the map and add a general track skill to track a single foe of the toggled type beyond the map limits - like we do now.
- The problem is the excedingly long cooldown on penetrating shot after the upgrade. - just reduce the cooldown a tad.

If anything, give us slightly MORE Crowd Control, not less...