So, no Guardian Dev Feedback?

[TUX426]

Allow me to make an attempt to explain:

Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power.

Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

But see, it sounds like all a Champ would need to do is change his stance to be DPS+Tank. For me, a Guardian, I need to retrait at a Bard to go from Threat to Overpower effectively - costing a group time and me 200silver each swap.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for enhancing classes, but seriously, this sounds like a mighty blow to any Guardian. I'm forced to almost exclusively spam my +threat skills to hold aggro against Champs right now (in fervor stance), which means my DPS blows.

If you're telling me that now a Champ can simply click a button and be a tank + DPS - you may not "intend" to make them the only tank class, but you're effectively doing exactly that by allowing them to be a primary tank without any sacrifice to DPS. Honestly, please tell me why ANY group would take a Guard over a Champ after this?!

You guys have a helluva balance going right now imo, but this just mucks the entire thing up. Unless of course you're intention is to allow OP mode with shields again? Or add DPS in some major way to Guards?

I guess I just don't understand this move. lotro's classes are give and take...this change to Champ is give and give.

[Zaestro]

My only consolation in this thread is that now people are coming out and seeing the problem as I see it...instead of me being called 'chicken little' and and alarmist by some who enjoy speaking in demeaning ways if they disgaree.

[TUX426]

My only consolation in this thread is that now people are coming out and seeing the problem as I see it...instead of me being called 'chicken little' and and alarmist by some who enjoy speaking in demeaning ways if they disgaree.

I see how it can be taken that way, but I honestly don't think it was intended to be insulting to you in any way mate. More of an attention grabber than anything

And THANK YOU for pointing this out. I'm VERY pleased to know about it NOW rather than later.

[brasswire12]

Look, on its own this paragraph says, to me, "You will need to change your rotations for new mitigation skills and effects, but Champions will still deal out 'savage beats,' while managing threat and mitigating incoming damage." To me, that's a reasonable condensed version of what you said. I don't think it was a "Chicken Little" interpretation - taking the smallest sign as one of doom.

I think you're interpretation is incorrect/flawed. As I read it he's saying that Champs will need to change their rotations in order to maintain threat/power/fervour and mitigate damage. And that this change of rotation is going to result in less dps output. Champion-*style* game play means hitting things/using dps skill rotations as opposed to beefing up on armour/shields/b/p/e. It doesn't necessarily mean massive dps output. "Style" means style, it does have anything to do with results.

As for having more than one class of main tank. It's a great thing. Sure I can understand why Guardians would be worried because you're no longer going to be a special snowflake that is wanted by every group 100% of the time. But let's be honest, Guardians have had a stranglehold on tanking in this game for awhile now, and that's not healthy for the game as a whole. We have multiple classes that can CC, do damage, support, and heal, but only one class that can actually tank raid content really well. That's an obvious game imbalance and glad that it's finally being addressed. Guardians are still going to be wanted and valued, they just won't have their super-special status anymore. Now they'll be on a level playing field with everyone else.

[qannadi]

Okay, read Orion's statement again. He is saying that in a rotation, ONE SKILL will hit as hard as a Champ NORMALLY DOES ON ALL HIS SKILLS. The rest of the rotation will be filled with skills to raise threat, mitigate damage, etc. In no way does that imply a tanking Champion will do the same DPS he does in a DPS stance. It just means that ONE SKILL will hit as hard as a normal skill. It does not mean that one skill will do the same DPS as the rest of their skills combined.

[TUX426]

I think you're interpretation is incorrect/flawed. As I read it he's saying that Champs will need to change their rotations in order to maintain threat/power/fervour and mitigate damage. And that this change of rotation is going to result in less dps output. Champion-*style* game play means hitting things/using dps skill rotations as opposed to beefing up on armour/shields/b/p/e. It doesn't necessarily mean massive dps output. "Style" means style, it does have anything to do with results.

As for having more than one class of main tank. It's a great thing. Sure I can understand why Guardians would be worried because you're no longer going to be a special snowflake that is wanted by every group 100% of the time. But let's be honest, Guardians have had a stranglehold on tanking in this game for awhile now, and that's not healthy for the game as a whole. We have multiple classes that can CC, do damage, support, and heal, but only one class that can actually tank raid content really well. That's an obvious game imbalance and glad that it's finally being addressed. Guardians are still going to be wanted and valued, they just won't have their super-special status anymore. Now they'll be on a level playing field with everyone else.

Special snowflake?! Dude, I can find healer and capt and burg requests every night in glff too. I certainly don't feel "special" as a Guardian. I love the role they play though, and that's why this change bothers me.

And in order to "level" the playing field, will we get a tremendous boost to our DPS also (2x's)? Because, to be a tank, I have already sacrificed MOST of my DPS ability. I need to choose DPS below Champ level or I tank. You'll have both. I want both then too - fair? As I said earlier, I already spam my +threat skills to maintain aggro over Champs. I want to be able to DPS and STILL maintain aggro if you can. You guys can keep the dual wielding, but I really want your DPS numbers and 4k crits too.

[Jeffor]

I would gladly give up Glory-tanking if guardians lose Overpower. If guardians should be the only tank class, it wouldn't be fair for you to be able to DPS too. Guardians in Overpower step on MY toes, just as much as Champs tanking step on yours.

This is not true. I never really see anyone looking for DPS and accepting OP guardians. There is a difference.

[Lomeloth]

Okay, read Orion's statement again. He is saying that in a rotation, ONE SKILL will hit as hard as a Champ NORMALLY DOES ON ALL HIS SKILLS. The rest of the rotation will be filled with skills to raise threat, mitigate damage, etc. In no way does that imply a tanking Champion will do the same DPS he does in a DPS stance. It just means that ONE SKILL will hit as hard as a normal skill. It does not mean that one skill will do the same DPS as the rest of their skills combined.

It doesn't have to - it will still hit a lot harder than any of mine. I already need to throw everything I have into threat generation to compete with Fervour champs and hunters; the DPS I sneak into my rotation is laughable.

Champs' main role is supposedly melee DPS; these proposed changes seem to be upgrading their secondary tank role to another primary role. With that being the case, at a minimum I would like to be able to actually compete with them for a tanking slot (AND with any other class for a secondary role). Orion paints Champs as just as viable as Guards with the right rotation, except the former will also have DPS in their mix. I need to see the tradeoff that makes it a level playing field.

[Grampsaz]

No, no, and no. There were some promising blurbs for wardens from orion...but guards get a vague allusion to "some enhancements" at some undisclosed and likely uncoordinated time in the future...and have been waiting 18 months just for some minor niggling points to be addressed already.

Guards "hide behind shields"...which would be demeaning for a champ to do...and champs are meant to "hit like trucks...." Got it! Am even more certain now than before that these concerns for MAIN tanks are valid.

There are NOT...or were not, anyway, three main tank classes. This update looks to make champs have "main" primary and secondary roles...with main tanks doing less dps and not preferred as "sub-optimal," and being secondary or worse in both roles.

This is the exact situation from Moria...the rest of the problems with other classes didn't help, but this was the crux of the problem that persists in threads and debates even to this day (optimality in raids...OD already being tanked by champs) despite "main tanking" being brought a long way in the proper direction from SoM on.

Very disappointing Orion.

There are three tank classes now. If you dont know that, then there is nothing anyone on these forums can do to help you. This is nothing even remoely close to the problem in Moria. Moria guards suffered from a massive dps upscale with a minor threat generation upscale. Very simple.

Back in SoA, which is what I first referenced, Guardians were the preferred tanking class. Sure a glory Champ could do it, but it wasn't common that it happened and most champs I know weren't interested in that role, they wanted to dps. MoM did change things, and not for the better for Guardians. And no, I'm not too concerned about Champs or Wardens when posting about Guardian issues on the Guardian forums. I haven't been overwhelmed with the number or Wardens and Champions on their own forums worrying too much about the proposed changes and what it may mean for Guardians. And since tanking is a secondary function for Champs, if they can do it as well as my primary purpose Guardian, well that is an issue unless the Guardian tweaks mean that a Guard running in OP now does enough damage that groups would seriously consider taking an OP Guard as dps over a champ, then I won't have any issues with these changes.

Stop being a revisionist historian.

Guardians were the preferred tanking class because that outside of a Fervour champ was the only option. It wasn't until much later in SoA did Champs get Glory. Get your head outta the clouds dood. Guards haven't been the only tank in the game for over three years now. They've just been the best option for the majority of the content.

You can do almost as much dps as a Champ. If you dont know that then you should try to build a proper OP guard and parse it. You're going to run 80-90% of a Champs dps. To answer you, there is no reason in the world why OP guards shouldn't get a buff. OP has massive power issues and isn't as sustainable as Champs.

My only consolation in this thread is that now people are coming out and seeing the problem as I see it...instead of me being called 'chicken little' and and alarmist by some who enjoy speaking in demeaning ways if they disgaree.

He wasn't 'calling you names' he was making a point. Your not a victim in this, stop acting like one. Your voice and opinion is just as important as anyone elses.

This is not true. I never really see anyone looking for DPS and accepting OP guardians. There is a difference.

Its ignorance. Many many people have zero clue how much dps OP Guards can put out. Thats on them. But like I said above, OP guards could use a little love.

[Jatayu]

For some reason, Guards have never had any luck with a developer that really was looking out for the class. The original developer was so conservative, I don't think he ever wanted to change anything. Then there was the launch of Moria, what a nightmare, I don't want to relive that. Dps was king, range tanking, Guards were not needed or wanted.

As for the changes for the Champions, don't kid yourself, if the developers are talking about them then they are already in the works.

But if your going to make the Champs more like Guards, then make the Guards more like champs. Make it so when people think of a dps class, they also think of Guards. This would not be my preferred solution, I don't really want to be a Champ lite, but it's better than being totally useless.

[TUX426]

As for the changes for the Champions, don't kid yourself, if the developers are talking about them then they are already in the works.

But if your going to make the Champs more like Guards, then make the Guards more like champs. Make it so when people think of a dps class, they also think of Guards. This would not be my preferred solution, I don't really want to be a Champ lite, but it's better than being totally useless.

I could not agree more.

We're too late to change their minds if they're talking/blogging about it - the best we can hope for is more DPS to extend our role.

[Sthrax]

Honestly?

I don't think ever in my life in LOTRO...ever...EVER...I have see on GLFF or LFF: "LF1M Melee DPS, champ or OP guardian wanted.' Sure I've seen groups, occasionally, grudgingly take an OP guardian when they were looking for a melee DPS role. But I've never seen a group happy about it, and I've damn well never seen a group take an OP guardian OVER a champ for the role of melee DPS.

EVER.

Yet I have seen plenty of groups (again, especially immediately post-MoM) actually take a champ OVER a guardian...specifically for the role of main tank.

That is just so very, very wrong I cannot even begin to fathom what more to say.

Whereas with stunning frequency (especially when MoM first came out), "LF1M tank wanted, champ preferred." Granted that is less common now, but mostly because the horrific damage done to the guardian class at MoM launch has been corrected.

If you give champs a stance that lets them tank "as well as" a guardian, while still being able to hit as hard as a champion normally hits (which seems to be what Orion is saying his goal is), then at the very least you need to give guardians a DPS stance that lets them DPS "as well as" a champ. Not just "do a little, mostly single-target DPS" but I mean the kind of full-bore DPS that a champion provides in a group.

And if you do that, then at some point you really have to ask yourself why LOTRO has them as two separate classes to begin with. Honestly. Other MMO's don't...the biggest one out (which will go unnamed here) there immediately comes to mind. In that game, you have one class that is BOTH the tank and the melee DPS class wrapped into one. One the new twists that LOTRO brought to the table to be different from "that game" is that in LOTRO, you had those two roles split into two classes; one could DPS great but not tank very well, the other could tank great but not DPS very well.

Now it seems as LOTRO goes along, it is becoming more like WoW (okay, I finally named it) and merging those two back into one. Which ultimately I think is a real shame, and ends up hurting both classes by making neither of them terribly distinctive from the other.

I PUG a lot, and you'd be surprised how many guardians insist they should go Overpower and dps-tank. And don't get me started on the OP guardians insisting they should be dpsing the cauldron in NCF instead of a champ... For the record, both classes have been messed up since MoM and their roles too blurred.

More to the point, I like that classes have primary and secondary roles. But those roles should be clearly defined and one's class' primary role shouldn't be eclipsed by the other's secondary. I do not want champs to tank as well as guards, but given the very tiny bits of information available at this time, I don't see a problem with them tanking in a different way than guards. I suspect that champ tanking will be more difficult and trait/skill-intensive than guard tanking, and without a shield, guard mitigation will still be better. No matter what, I (as well as most champs) want to DPS (leaving the tanking to guards or wardens), and only tank in an emergency or the odd 3-man.

I stand by my comment (which wasn't directed at you or the more level-headed posters here)- if guards don't want champs to be able to tank, guards shouldn't be able to dps. Right now, it appears like each will be able to do both with some proficiency, and I'd prefer it that way (options are always good). It just doesn't sit well with me when, with little information, someone declares only guards should tank, yet ignores the gigantic Overpower elephant in the room.

[brasswire12]

I need to choose DPS below Champ level or I tank. You'll have both. I want both then too - fair? As I said earlier, I already spam my +threat skills to maintain aggro over Champs. I want to be able to DPS and STILL maintain aggro if you can.

People who think Champs will be able to tank as well as Guardians and still put out top tier dps and threat at the same time just aren't reading what Orion said. He specifically said that is *not* what they are doing, and that it would be bad for the game if they did. I don't know how much clearer they can make it.

[Sthrax]

But see, it sounds like all a Champ would need to do is change his stance to be DPS+Tank. For me, a Guardian, I need to retrait at a Bard to go from Threat to Overpower effectively - costing a group time and me 200silver each swap.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm all for enhancing classes, but seriously, this sounds like a mighty blow to any Guardian. I'm forced to almost exclusively spam my +threat skills to hold aggro against Champs right now (in fervor stance), which means my DPS blows.

If you're telling me that now a Champ can simply click a button and be a tank + DPS - you may not "intend" to make them the only tank class, but you're effectively doing exactly that by allowing them to be a primary tank without any sacrifice to DPS. Honestly, please tell me why ANY group would take a Guard over a Champ after this?!

You guys have a helluva balance going right now imo, but this just mucks the entire thing up. Unless of course you're intention is to allow OP mode with shields again? Or add DPS in some major way to Guards?

I guess I just don't understand this move. lotro's classes are give and take...this change to Champ is give and give.

We have no idea how this will work yet. For all we know a champ may have to completely retrait in order to an effective tank. Switching to Glory when not traited for tanking may only be good in an emergency and even then only for a limited time.

And I would stress this- I (and most other champs) want to DPS. Period. I have no desire to be a main tank, and I'm not particularly keen on being an off-tank. However, I appreciate to option to do so effectively if need be (even if it requires retraiting and a second set of legendaries).

[Golledhel]

Yes and this shouldn't be news to anyone. There has always been a primary and secondary role for classes, some were clearer then others, some where good some were bad.

And it sounds like they're trying to do away with the secondary roles and turning them into main roles. So that Champions can, if they choose, trait for a tanking main role, or trait for a DPS main role, or trait for another DPS main role. Something similar to WoW.

I think it's good.

[qannadi]

And it sounds like they're trying to do away with the secondary roles and turning them into main roles. So that Champions can, if they choose, trait for a tanking main role, or trait for a DPS main role, or trait for another DPS main role. Something similar to WoW.

I think it's good.

This, honestly, I think is a good thing. There are a LOT of changes that would need to take place to make this happen, but I for one would be very happy to see a CC Hunter who was as good as a CC LM.. Are we likely to see many? No, it's like the posters have said- most Champs play Champs because they like to DPS and shing-shing, NOT because they want to tank. But would it be terrible if every class could, with a LOT of gearing, traiting, and LI'ing, be a viable and strong alternative class? I would dare say that except for bursts, Minstrels have even less of a second role than Guardians. Would I love to see actual medium armour wearing, DPS Minstrels? Sure, would be fun for them. I wouldn't choose to do it, but I think that would be a cool option for people to have. Maybe when we DO hear about Guardian changes, we will hear about Overpower getting a bump to allow Guardians to compete on a more even DPS level. The fact that they're rolling out Champion changes first may be a GOOD THING- then Guardians (upwards) or Champions (nerfage) can be adjusted based on actual in-game feedback if suddenly Champs are the best tanks in the game.

But again.. why NOT allow classes to have two viable roles instead of a "primary" and a "secondary?" I hate to mention another game because clearly we're not any other game (yay Lord of the Rings).. but I like what SW:TOR is doing with their classes a lot.. You want to be a healing heavy armour trooper? Go right ahead, just understand what you're getting yourself into.

Still looking for LFF calls for CC-traited Hunters.

[TUX426]

People who think Champs will be able to tank as well as Guardians and still put out top tier dps and threat at the same time just aren't reading what Orion said. He specifically said that is *not* what they are doing, and that it would be bad for the game if they did. I don't know how much clearer they can make it.

They don't need to tank "as well as" - if they tank marginally as well as a Guard PLUS deal Champ DPS, they'll be the preferred tanking class every time. Groups would be fools to take a Guardian tank when they can grab someone who will make the entire run go quicker by tanking AND DPS'ing.

I'm fine with Champs being given a "tank" role option...but NOT with Champ DPS. Give and take!

[Iracham]

My guard's OP DPS is easily within 10% of a champions, even closer on single target fights, the main limiters are POWER and parry reactives.

That said, I'd love to see OP change Protection into a parry-only buff/reactive feed, and maybe slightly reduce the OP power penalty.

Also, very very very few champions that I've played with are either inclined to (attempt to) tank, or have the sufficent Clue Density required to successfully do so.

Although I suppose that the converse is true as well, most guardians either don't want to or suck at being DPS. I ran NCF T2 with someone who had a (badly played/poorly geared) guard alt and didn't believe that I could solo DPS the cauldron down. Of course you can't when you're wearing 7 pieces of annuminas armor, your agility is 240, and your 2h is a 60 first age.

[brasswire12]

They don't need to tank "as well as" - if they tank marginally as well as a Guard PLUS deal Champ DPS, they'll be the preferred tanking class every time. Groups would be fools to take a Guardian tank when they can grab someone who will make the entire run go quicker by tanking AND DPS'ing.

I'm fine with Champs being given a "tank" role option...but NOT with Champ DPS. Give and take!

If you re-read what Orion said you'll find that is what he already did say. That Champs would *not* be able to do normal Champ dps while tanking.

[OldFashioned]

It seems the fear with all of this is that guards (and wardens) will be left out in the cold when it comes to group instances of 6+ and up. Like we were right after MOM. Fun for me is defined by playing group content. If groups LF1M tank and have 4+tells... and they have the choice of a champ or guard, they might likely choose the champ. Guard gets passed up... I'm not grouping... I'm not having fun.

Most 6 man instances only require 1 tank. And often times the instance only really requires that tank for the boss fights. So, there's incentive to take a dps-ing champ that can also handle the boss fights (switch to glory if needed). That would likely be the fastest way through the 6mans.

12-man are similar usually requiring two tanks. (LFF Turtle, 2 heavies, 2 healers, 1 Cappy...and 7 spots for anyone else *except for another tank). That's literally 10 spots for any class to fill in the Turtle raid... and only 2 spots for tanks. (I know this example breaks down quickly when we all know you can tank the turtle with champs, burgs, others already). I use it as an illustration about the number of spots available to a tank in a raid/group.

I think Turbine could help remedy this situation by creating 6-man instances that often require more than 1 tank role, and 12 man instances that require more than 2. With 3-4 classes (Guard, Wrd, Champ, Cappy) that can tank (not even including hunters and burgs) Turbine needs to create more content in the instanced fights that requires more than 1 tank role. That would create more incentive for groups to bring additional heavies/tanks -because the content demands it.

[doug01]

No they are 'fixing' the problem in the first place. Champs have been tanks since day one. They have got a true tanking role in MoM. It just wasn't good enough to allow Champs to sit in Glory and tank with as much sucsess as Guards.

Wardens' were added in Moria and they do have issues that they hopefully will adress. They have never been as popular as they could be, as a tanking class that does it differently then Guards.

Bottom line, there has always been other options besides Guards, they just weren't very good options for ALL content. They were good options for some content.

I can only hope that we have three true options after these changes. Doing Guards a disservice? Stop playing the victim role. There are are Wardens and TANKING champs to consider too.

So there will be some situations where wardens and Guards will be as good as a champ filling the DPS slot?

My guess, nope. I foresee a repeat of Moria.

[D.H1cks]

If you re-read what Orion said you'll find that is what he already did say. That Champs would *not* be able to do normal Champ dps while tanking.

Correct, they cannot DPS while tanking, but (from what I understand) they can easily switch from one mode to the other. A simple stance change and modified skill rotation and you are there.

I admit that I don't know what role class traits will play in a champ being able to perform either role, but it currently seems like not so much.

If this is true, then champs could become the more prefered class for tanking, simply because they can help speed up a group by doing great DPS with trash, and being able to tank the bosses. I know I would take a champ over guard in this situation.

[TUX426]

If you re-read what Orion said you'll find that is what he already did say. That Champs would *not* be able to do normal Champ dps while tanking.

He didn't say that at all.

He said:

"They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play. They should tank like a champion."

and

"What this means for Glory is as follows: no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun! That is the goal of playing games after all, having fun! At the same time, understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive."

and...

"I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation."

But all that implies is that they won't need to waste skills on 'threat'...but without a Guard in the group, there's no need to think they would ever lose aggro after a slight bit.

and...

"Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to..."

No place does he suggest there will be a reduction in ANYTHING Champs can deal for damage, only that they may need to sacrifice hitting hard ALL the time. Guards are forced to sacrifice damage ALL the time to be effective tanks.

Where did you think you read otherwise?

[Jaunt]

Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

Given that both Guardians and Wardens have dps as their secondary role (Keen Blade and Spear respectively), does this mean that your goals are to not make champions, guardians, or wardens as DPS preferable over any other?

[Lomeloth]

If you re-read what Orion said you'll find that is what he already did say. That Champs would *not* be able to do normal Champ dps while tanking.

The problem isn't that they can do Champ DPS while tanking - the problem is that they will still be doing significantly more DPS than Guardians when tanking. How else can I interpret the following (all quoted from Orion, but with different emphasis):

• "They should not hide behind a shield, deal less damage, or sacrifice their game play."
• "...mitigate damage, maintain threat, all while dishing out some savage beats."
• "...no more damage reduction. Hit like a truck have fun!"

Apparently Guardians are expected to tank by dealing less damage and hiding behind a shield. The bolded language above all sounds like DPS to me, and is in sharp contrast to how a Guard plays - gear/trait for mitigation, use your skill rotation to generate threat... and forget about anything but incidental DPS.

If the Champ-tank is still hitting like a truck, but also able to manage his mitigations and threat (bear in mind that DPS is also threat), he's got the clear advantage absent some other way to level the playing field - and that's what we need to hear about.