So, no Guardian Dev Feedback?

[AS1476]

What is being said, and how it may end up being, are two different things.

The guard dev pre MoM was told are threat gen was broke, he told us it was fine, hell, he implied that we should all lrn2play.

MoM was released, and about 1-2 weeks in as grds were getting to lvl 60, we all found out: guards threat was broke, and champs were kings for 3-4 months or so, until it was fixed for grds, and nerfs handed to champs (which is always bad).

If something isn't said about champs and glory tanking now, and concerns over the past brought up, we could have the same thing happen, but this time it would effect two classes, not one.

The more classes become the same, the harder any type of balance will be able to be maintained.

[brasswire12]

How else can I interpret the following (all quoted from Orion, but with different emphasis)...

You should interpret it alongside and with the same weight as other things he said today. Specifically...

* "allowing for the rotation to mitigate the massive damage that Champions can output."
* "understand that if all you do is hit things you are likely not going to survive."
* "I have not created magical pixie dust that allows for champs to do all three of tanking, damage dealing, and threat generation. That would be a single-player game. We are not a single-player game. I am working toward a balanced approach to make them tanks that use Champion-style Game Play."
* "They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power."

Apparently Guardians are expected to tank by dealing less damage and hiding behind a shield.

This isn't a shot at Guardians so much as it is a shot at the current form of Glory, which, instead of being a Champ flavoured stance, instead tries to make Champs into Guardians-lite. It would be like if Loremaster heals involved them whipping out a musical instrument and playing a song to heal. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, it works great for Minstrels. But from a Loremaster perspective, that's not the LM way of doing things, and the LM based description of it might not be so flattering.

[Zaestro]

Again...I am slightly heartened that people are joining in this...for a day or two, with people telling me to essentially shut up even on this forum ...I think my concern was called a "tirade" on this forum...I really felt like I had had a brain bleed or something...since the cause for concern seemed so plain to me, and yet did not receive any kind of expected reception. Btw, Orion actually called someone else "chicken little" here, and I was referring to certain private posters who were decidedly having a go at me (here and on champ forum), whereas I do think Orion had some genuine intention of humor versus forum nastiness with his use of that phrase.

Couple of things...my first post somewhere...i think champ forum...hit on what several are saying here...I made some sarcastic comment that jumped over the problem to where I suspect we have to strive for a "solution." I made a one-liner that "its all good, since guards will be having the evade and power nerfs of OP stance removed and increased crit multipliers granted to all of our big attacks and additional AoE attacks." That is it...probably the only thing we can hope for parity, to then truly compete...have our secondary role similarly be buffed into a viable primary role to match champs across the board. Maybe also some increased crit multiplier and increased frequency on bash & SS crit (I'd like to see a 3k SS and more often), would also assist maintaining parity in tanking.

The additional yet still intentionally vague snippets from Orion lead me to think that champ tanking will actually be something akin to "one button" warden tanking...without the gambits...that champs (like wardens) will be able to spam certain skills to max BPE, and/or crit def, and or increased self-heals. yay!!! a "warden analog" that is not limited by a players ability to bring to bear uber defensive skills that leave guards skills in the dust, just press one button! Commingled with champ-like dps, if not "full champ dps," we are most certainly in trouble.

Orion, as the dev for wardens...temporarily placated them with some promised buffs as well...but I think wardens will end up unhappy as well just the same, when champs outdo them with single button presses that take wardens time to build a gambit for.

Two fully spammable main tanking classes to compete with soon...but hey we should still be preferred all because someone gave us "pledge" way back at the get go....lolz!

I do not think the boost to OP is a good or right solution that we have to head toward, but it is all we can strive for...agree that this is a "done deal" if the dev's are blogging about it and so we can only try to get the ball rolling so that when the needed correction (to our class) comes, it might take a little less intervening time of misery.

They don't ever really ask us for feedback that can greatly modify or change a course, even if that path leads to certain "destruction"...and there are too many champs getting excited and asking for 5 morale per vit...crit defense from skills...and block on weapons, etc. , etc.

Dark times ahead...I feel more sure than ever that I will not need that Lotramin for MY tongue!

[sirwillow]

Look, on its own this paragraph says, to me, "You will need to change your rotations for new mitigation skills and effects, but Champions will still deal out 'savage beats,' while managing threat and mitigating incoming damage." To me, that's a reasonable condensed version of what you said. I don't think it was a "Chicken Little" interpretation - taking the smallest sign as one of doom.

You missed the part where he said, "When they hit they will hit with a savage beat." That "When" is the key word there. If a champ is tanking he's not going to be hitting and laying out dps like he might otherwise. He's going to be working more on his b/p/e to avoid the hits and keep aggro up. In other words he'll be using a different skill rotation than he would if he wasn't tanking, but he'll still be using a skill rotation.

Will the champ be as effective a tank as a guard? No. But right now he's not effective as a tank much at all, in spite of skills hinting that they wanted the champ to be able to tank if so desired. So now they are giving the champ an option to be able to semi-effectively tank if need be- not by dealing out loads of damage, but by using skill rotations like a champ does. And that's fine with me.

Personally, I think when you can make a character class viable in more than one role, that's a good thing. Versatility and choices are good, and this is helping to open up and allow that.

[Jaunt]

Yes, the word "tirade" was used. I also used a dictionary beforehand to make sure that it wouldn't be offensive.

When I disagree with you, I'm not "having a go" at anyone or anything, I'm just disagreeing. Whatever you choose to read into my words is your choice. Nobody told you to shut up, at least not here. People can disagree with you without demanding that you shut up.

Well, if you were looking to make the thread about real or imagined forum drama instead of issues, congratulations.

[Solien]

Honestly?

I don't think ever in my life in LOTRO...ever...EVER...I have see on GLFF or LFF: "LF1M Melee DPS, champ or OP guardian wanted.'

[and other completely accurate stuff]

This.

Sure I can understand why Guardians would be worried because you're no longer going to be a special snowflake that is wanted by every group 100% of the time.

Childish condescension aside, this is an absurd statement.

Here's a clue from the clue bat:

There are already groups tanking nearly all bosses in OD - Tier 2 challenges - with fervour Champs

Answer me this: aside from take a beating (by hiding behind our shields, apparently), what do Guardians do better than - heck as well as - any other class?

[ANewMachine]

And this, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guardians were created to be "the tank" in Lotro. And then Wardens got added later, as another unasked for tanking option. Now you are implying that Champs will be on a comparable level to a Guardian as a tank. A 'primarily dps class' will now be able to tank as well as one of the designated 'tanking' classes. The 'tanks' should be preferable over a 'non tanking' class. What's next, to change Captains so that they can heal as well as Minstrels and RK's in any situation? Should no one be optimal at any one thing? Unless the changes, tweaks, enhancements to the Guardian class make us that much more desirable as tanks, once again Turbine is doing the Guardian class a grave disservice.

I will note that Wardens and RKs were clear strategic decisions on Turbine's part to alleviate the need for more tanks and healers at end-game. They were certainly not "unasked-for."

[Zaestro]

Yes, the word "tirade" was used. I also used a dictionary beforehand to make sure that it wouldn't be offensive.

When I disagree with you, I'm not "having a go" at anyone or anything, I'm just disagreeing. Whatever you choose to read into my words is your choice. Nobody told you to shut up, at least not here. People can disagree with you without demanding that you shut up.

Well, if you were looking to make the thread about real or imagined forum drama instead of issues, congratulations.

You were intentionally and needlessly abrasive, which is not uncommon when you address people you may disagree with...and I think you may even now be coming around to recognizing that this issue is a valid concern...but your first post was expressly addressing me for even bothering to bring up.

As said then, I am "over" verbal sparring with you...this issue will pan out as it does and I suspect before the end you will be far more in agreement than your initial go at me would betray.

[Zaestro]

This.



Childish condescension aside, this is an absurd statement.

Here's a clue from the clue bat:

There are already groups tanking nearly all bosses in OD - Tier 2 challenges - with fervour Champs

Answer me this: aside from take a beating (by hiding behind our shields, apparently), what do Guardians do better than - heck as well as - any other class?

I so am feeling you right now dude ...in a purely intellectual "in the same boat" sort of way, no puns!!!

[Jatayu]

I think most Guards just want to make sure they have role to play in the up coming content. The Guards that were around at the launch of Moria saw it, everything was Dps (and to a great extent range dps). Why use a shield, when the object is to burn the boss down faster than he can burn you down. Can't control your aggro, no problem just keep dpsing.

Champs wielding two handers tanking, burgs tanking, RK's tanking, with big numbers flying, I get it. All I ask is to let guards into the fun, you can have my mitigations, give me dps. Let me post how I hit with X with shield smash for a million points of damage. I can't wait for shield throw, to up my range dps.

Besides, if tanking was such a great job, more people would be doing it.

I wonder what kind of sound a dpsing Guard will make?

I am looking forward to this already.

[Zaestro]

Shield throw...love it!!

In reality, we will be getting our melee crit rank 3 and 4 passives finally, and a smoothed out sting and upped ratings on protection....read: the shaft! That should fix the problem

[Crissaegrim]

Well, this has been... entertaining.

I'd like to just reiterate that I'm looking forward to the information on the Guard class as soon as the Blog is possible, and will enjoy any teasers that Orion cares to share with us from himself and the other developers working on the class changes. So far, even the small amounts that have been shared in a completely roundabout fashion have perked my interest.

It's sounding like, more and more, the Champion class is moving towards a more Hybrid take on the traditional role of DPS and Tank. From the small amounts of cross-reference that have been supplied in the ensuing discussions, it would seem that this is also the case for Guardians and Wardens, as well.

Our concerns, as Guardians, is that we are profoundly sensitive of being moved into a situation of redundancy within the Fellowship and/or Raid. The unfairness of that sensitivity right now is that we have less than a third of the information of what the incoming class alterations are going to be for the Champions, Guardians and Wardens that might justify or allay this sensitivity. The information for the Champions was released in a generous and playful manner -- it was met with an undue amount of negativity.

So I suggest that we all slot our Stoic Trait, and kindly wait for Orion to release our own information.

[Evendale]

Well, this has been... entertaining.

I'd like to just reiterate that I'm looking forward to the information on the Guard class as soon as the Blog is possible, and will enjoy any teasers that Orion cares to share with us from himself and the other developers working on the class changes. So far, even the small amounts that have been shared in a completely roundabout fashion have perked my interest.

It's sounding like, more and more, the Champion class is moving towards a more Hybrid take on the traditional role of DPS and Tank. From the small amounts of cross-reference that have been supplied in the ensuing discussions, it would seem that this is also the case for Guardians and Wardens, as well.

Our concerns, as Guardians, is that we are profoundly sensitive of being moved into a situation of redundancy within the Fellowship and/or Raid. The unfairness of that sensitivity right now is that we have less than a third of the information of what the incoming class alterations are going to be for the Champions, Guardians and Wardens that might justify or allay this sensitivity. The information for the Champions was released in a generous and playful manner -- it was met with an undue amount of negativity.

So I suggest that we all slot our Stoic Trait, and kindly wait for Orion to release our own information.

I agree with you somewhat. We don't know enough information to warrant this much negativity.


But if I were to respond to what I read in http://my.lotro.com/user-55/2011/05/...nd-trait-sets/ on its own, I would be very concerned.

With increased crit defense, and better emergency skills, Glory (with no shield) will become almost as good as Overpower for survivability (there's already barely any difference), and with increased damage, and increased pip generation, it may well end up providing as good (if not significantly better) damage output than Overpower.

Of course I realize that it remains to be seen how much of an effect these changes will actually have, and we won't know until people start playing. A lot of Champions will probably stubbornly refuse to use Glory just like a lot of Guardians stubbornly refuse to use Overpower .



That said, I don't have much faith in the devs. So please realize that:

A Guardian is switching between:
i) Using a Shield (very low dps, very high survivability)
ii) Overpower (? high dps, moderate survivability)

A Champion is switching between:
ii) Glory (? high dps, ? moderate survivability)
iii) Fervour (very high dps, low survivability)
iv) when available: (very high dps, slightly worse than moderate survivability)

Since (i) is rarely (pretty much never) required outside of raids, even in mediocre groups: If Glory is made as good as Overpower, Guardian's could easily become generally undesirable outside of raids; If Glory is made significantly better than Overpower, Guardian's could easily start to generally be seen as a hindrance to groups.


Presumably, to counter these changes to Champions, Guardians are going to see one of the following:
- Increased Damage in Overpower
- Much better Survivability in Overpower
- and/or Mobs hitting much harder in general (unlikely)

Fingers crossed anyway...

[gakj3]

Allow me to make an attempt to explain:

Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power.

Our goal is not to make the Champion the only tank that people choose. Our goal is to make the tank a viable option at tank, just like the Guardian and the Warden. Options are not bad. Good tanks, be they guardians, wardens or champions are going to be desired. It may not make you feel better, not sure, but our goals are not to make any one preferable over any other.

I'm not sure if anyone has said this already, but I'll say it and repeating it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Champions with no damage penalty generating crazy fervor pips with glorious exchange will have no problem dealing damage and holding aggro. Especially if they have To Arms, but even otherwise it's NEVER a problem.

ALL they need to do is worry about power.

Now, I'm not saying guards will be useless, but it's clear you haven't thought through the implications of the changes very well. At least it is to me, prove me wrong right?

[brasswire12]

Here's a clue from the clue bat:

There are already groups tanking nearly all bosses in OD - Tier 2 challenges - with fervour Champs

There are 6 bosses in OD, what qualifies as "nearly all" in your definition? Some of the fights are definitely designed to not be tanked in the traditional way but that's neither here nor there. Over the last two years at least I've never seen a raid group that would turn down a Guardian given the opportunity. That doesn't mean that some very high-performing groups aren't capable of doing it without one as is true of any class.

[rewrando5]

The way Orion's posts strike me is exactly what I'm looking for. As a champ, there is a certain feel that we all love, that of a blade-swinging whirlwind of death. Fast skills, with fun animations (you know, unless you are 2H lol. jk to my 2H brothers, I couldn't resist).

If you have ever played a tanking champ with a shield, you know that there are a few things that are a little...underwhelming about playing that style. We didn't roll a champ to play a guard lol.

I think that a lot of our skills will be modified by traits and the stance itself. I suspect that it will be tied more to our traits, as arguments from the guards here are true that it's not fair if they have to retrait and we don't. I think the skills will be given more utility (think hunter melee skills, everything has a purpose, and it's not necessarily for dps).

I will say something I said in the warg forum too. Try not to panic. We love this game, Turbine has done a great job so far, and they try not to create problems, though problems will always exist. Have faith, my friends. We don't have details yet.

Namárië,
Geldarion

[ArcticAurora]

I have a lot of reserved concerns, summed up by others in part.

EDIT: And yes, there is a slight feeling of impending doom. Maybe. I dunno, I'm just uncertain we'll get a fair shake.

[Jaunt]

You were intentionally and needlessly abrasive, which is not uncommon when you address people you may disagree with...and I think you may even now be coming around to recognizing that this issue is a valid concern...but your first post was expressly addressing me for even bothering to bring up.

As said then, I am "over" verbal sparring with you...this issue will pan out as it does and I suspect before the end you will be far more in agreement than your initial go at me would betray.

You can say that somebody's "having a go" at you as much as you like. It doesn't make it true. You can say that something is abrasive as much as you like, but that doesn't make it so. Yes, my first post disagreed with you. This is one of the risks of expressing yourself in a public forum.

[Zaestro]

You can say that somebody's "having a go" at you as much as you like. It doesn't make it true. You can say that something is abrasive as much as you like, but that doesn't make it so. Yes, my first post disagreed with you. This is one of the risks of expressing yourself in a public forum.

And you can dissemble from your oft repeated manner of posting...denials won't change that your words and intentionally cutting style are self-evident.

You could have just said, "you are getting more concerned than necessary"...instead you intended to belittle and demean...but you back off from that intention now if it pleases you, idc either way...my opinions of you are set and I understand the motivationto back peddle, as you have realized my cause for concern was valid and shared by others, regardless of how that far more important topic may eventually resolve for good or ill.

[ArcticAurora]

You were intentionally and needlessly abrasive, which is not uncommon when you ...

I stopped reading and started howling at this point. Maybe the irony is too deep. Person A thinks Person B is offensive, and then Person B proceeds (in said and following posts) to tell Person A exactly what they think of them - in an intentionally and needlessly abrasive manner. I think I found a free energy device.

[Zaestro]

I stopped reading and started howling at this point. Maybe the irony is too deep. Person A thinks Person B is offensive, and then Person B proceeds (in said and following posts) to tell Person A exactly what they think of them - in an intentionally and needlessly abrasive manner. I think I found a free energy device.

Yeah...that's how it reads.

[Grimbran]

Well, this has been... entertaining.

I'd like to just reiterate that I'm looking forward to the information on the Guard class as soon as the Blog is possible, and will enjoy any teasers that Orion cares to share with us from himself and the other developers working on the class changes. So far, even the small amounts that have been shared in a completely roundabout fashion have perked my interest.

It's sounding like, more and more, the Champion class is moving towards a more Hybrid take on the traditional role of DPS and Tank. From the small amounts of cross-reference that have been supplied in the ensuing discussions, it would seem that this is also the case for Guardians and Wardens, as well.

Our concerns, as Guardians, is that we are profoundly sensitive of being moved into a situation of redundancy within the Fellowship and/or Raid. The unfairness of that sensitivity right now is that we have less than a third of the information of what the incoming class alterations are going to be for the Champions, Guardians and Wardens that might justify or allay this sensitivity. The information for the Champions was released in a generous and playful manner -- it was met with an undue amount of negativity.

So I suggest that we all slot our Stoic Trait, and kindly wait for Orion to release our own information.

^This. (+Rep)

The fear-mongering here is worse than it was in the burg forums back when the dev diary for update 2 came out for them. And that's impressive. Guards have virtually no info to go on regarding their own class at all. Just promises that guards will get attention too, to be patient, its coming. Still, crazy fear and doomsaying here for no good reason.(no info to go on means you know nothing of the upcoming changes to our class, so it serves no purpose to prattle on about all the worst-case and in some ways impossible scenarios) Guess what happened for the Burgs? After it was all said and done, release of update 2 and full disclosure and testing on live servers, the only negative issue that really survived out of their voluminous gripes was "Hey, you forgot to buff one of our traitlines. That really woulda been grand, as we like mischief stance and it could use some work."

The old days may have seen some horrid balance changes from dev for guards, but since f2p turbine has a lot more money to spend on the game and based on all the updates since then, they are doing pretty quality updates each time since.(not perfect, ofc, but nothing can be.) Fully functioning multi-role classes are a good thing, with traiting required, its one of the only things I miss from my WoW days and by the looks of it, it seems to be coming for lotro. I look forward to it if that's the direction that the devs are heading.

I've fallen in love with my guard alt lately and have all but forgotten my burg main for now. I forgot how much fun it was to tank and to just *be* tanky. In fact he might become my new main as I can't stop playing him.(hence me perusing the guard forums of late, instead of the burgs) Lets be patient, stop twisting Orion's words to say what he never said, and wait for our dev blog to come. It will, we will get enhancements too, we wont be trivialized as tanks, the Dev team-lead already said so. With no info to go on about our class yet, it is senseless to argue with him. As the tankiest tanks in the game, you'd think we'd have thicker skins than this.

Patience, Daniel-san.

[FyrenLandroval]

From the Warden forum:
Originally Posted by Orion
Maybe those three trait slots will not be necessary in the future. Let me get through the Champ stuff, get the information out to them and I will turn my attention to the next class. Maybe Wardens, maybe Minstrels.

For all those saying we don't have enough information to be concerned at this point it doesn't look like we will have that info for quite awhile.

[qannadi]

From the Warden forum:
Originally Posted by Orion
Maybe those three trait slots will not be necessary in the future. Let me get through the Champ stuff, get the information out to them and I will turn my attention to the next class. Maybe Wardens, maybe Minstrels.

For all those saying we don't have enough information to be concerned at this point it doesn't look like we will have that info for quite awhile.

I think the reason for this is that Orion is not the Guardian dev.. It doesn't mean that the Guardian dev WILL post any sooner, but it also doesn't mean that they won't. Orion just happens to be one of the best blogging devs at Turbine, historically speaking. Not sure if he'll speak for the people doing the other classes or not. It does sound, at least from this thread and the Warden thread, that Orion is certainly speaking to the other class devs, which is as it should be given how much class changes will impact each other, especially the melee classes.

[Seedly]

I think the reason for this is that Orion is not the Guardian dev.. It doesn't mean that the Guardian dev WILL post any sooner, but it also doesn't mean that they won't. Orion just happens to be one of the best blogging devs at Turbine, historically speaking. Not sure if he'll speak for the people doing the other classes or not. It does sound, at least from this thread and the Warden thread, that Orion is certainly speaking to the other class devs, which is as it should be given how much class changes will impact each other, especially the melee classes.

But who is our Guardian dev then? Why are they mum when a bomb gets dropped like this? Is there even a guard dev?

I'm not sure if anyone has said this already, but I'll say it and repeating it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Champions with no damage penalty generating crazy fervor pips with glorious exchange will have no problem dealing damage and holding aggro. Especially if they have To Arms, but even otherwise it's NEVER a problem.

ALL they need to do is worry about power.

Now, I'm not saying guards will be useless, but it's clear you haven't thought through the implications of the changes very well. At least it is to me, prove me wrong right?

THANK YOU for pointing out something that shouldnt have taken 6 pages to get to. (+rep)

If guardians are struggling to hold aggro against champs as is, why would Champs have to work aggro skills into a Glory rotation?

Champion's tanking in Glory will play like Champions. When they hit as part of their rotation they will hit hard. They will, however, need to sacrifice hitting hard all the time by using skills that will allow them to a) survive, b) maintain threat, c) build their fervour back, d) maintain power.

emphasis added

The problem with what Orion is saying is that the intention will be for champs to have to slow DPS for 4 major reasons. We all know that isnt likely to happen...not even close. If a champ can dish 80% of the damage they do normally, they wont HAVE to switch out of full bore DPS to get aggro.

Again...quite simply: DPS = AGGRO GENERATION

I would say take the aggro generation from damage down in glory to force glory tanks to use aggro skills, but this would be used by DPS champs to stay off the aggro list instead of for tanking. If you went this route, why would a champ ever use Fervor?

To echo one or two others, I dont think OP is our answer. I stand by what I said in a earlier thread in regards to desired Guardian changes:

The Guardian was originally created to be a reactive tank, making it somewhat unique in the tanking role in MMOs.

I would like to see this carried over to damage and/or threat generation. I know that we have Reactive Block, but lets be honest. Its a stinking **** of a trait at the moment that dosent get used except as a novelty because the damage is too little (even with the legacy), which causes a decided lack of threat generation. Heck, you probably generate more threat with the Sting trait. At the very least this skill needs to be made to do whatever type of damage our shield is doing, not common. Maybe make a trait that allowed us to do a small amount of damage on ANY reactive, not just block.

I would really rather see a small-medium amount of threat generated on blocks and parries. This helps us fill our roles better as tanks, is in line with the idea of a reactive tank, and would make multi-mob tanking much easier. As it is, it can be hard to keep a mob glued to you after a Challenge. Being able to combine Challenge and Pledge to get ahead in the threat game early in the fight without having to pop an "Oh Shait!" like CtD would be nice (I dont consider pledge an OS button. If you can use a skill more than 5-10 times in an instance its not an OS button. Longer cooldowns like Deep Breath, CtD, and Man Heal are true OS buttons).

I mean think about it...how much does it piss you off when a mob blocks or parries your attack? This would also breath life into Guardians Ward as it ups our reactive rate quite a bit.

Maybe a legendary that gives us a small heal on reactives (similar to the damage from reactive block) would help this skill mix out. Force a choice of "Do I use pledge now to build threat, or later to heal up?" To keep it from being OP, it could be a skill that last for 10-15s or something. This would also generate threat as its a self heal. Maybe combine this with the above skill, making this the legendary trait for the above aggro generation skill.

Even better, make it two skills. One that does threat and one that heals, but they share a cooldown. Plus, since its based on number of reactives, it would greatly affect fights with tons of adds but not boss fights.

I also think the cap on block % should be removed, or at least increased to 20% when wielding a heavy shield. Were guardians...we are the masters of shield use and use a bigger shield than anybody else and can only block 15% of the time?

Maybe the combo of these things would make Guards "too OP" at tanking. Then again Wardens can spam a self heal, a power restore, an interrupt, a threat leech, and Eru only knows what else to the point that they are soloing raid content. RKs can dish out 5k+ damage in one shot with EC and swap to spamming heals. Hunters can dish out insane DPS at a steady clip, and enough CC to make using an induction like SOTE or the 3k morale and power heal in combat possible. WS Minnies have very decent AoE burst damage and a bubble and self heals.

Cant Guards have just one or two skills to make them slightly OP at holding aggro and make self healing not suck as bad? Were not asking to be invincible or do insane damage, just to fill our class role better. We have pets tanking the hardest content for goodness sake!

Now add to that last paragraph "And Champs can 'hit like a truck' while being as survivable as other tanks."

Yeah, it lets us encroach on the Warden territory of being able to say "I am a small fellowship", but champs are getting to be main tanks now, so why cant we be a small fellowship unto ourselves like wardens? Plus, it would let us drop this build for something more useful.

Or just give us more PROC gear options.

I LOVE the reactive nature of Guardians. I feel like it keeps me on my toes. Let me use THAT mechanic to be more survivable! Right now, all we have in that vein is CaB. Sure, traited and legacied its nothing to sneeze at, but its no Conviction. As it stands I feel silly being squishier in solo play than a medium armor wearer...

Besides, if a Champ can do anything a Champ can do by playing like a Champ ("shing-shing!"), then why cant us guardians do the same thing while cowering behind our shields?

Dont make me a Champ-lite please. I rolled a tank to be a tank.

I know that we cant get dev diaries on demand, but could someone please just respond a little so that we have some sort of rough idea of where were headed? Turbine, right now you have alot of nervous players who would just like to know that there is a direction and plan for their class. The silence for the last year or more has been pretty deafening.