An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

[Ronis]

My hunter has always been mostly Huntsman traited ever since it came out. I would do as much damage as I could at range, and when enemies got close, I would switch to melee attacks to finish them off. The problem is, it isn't really an optimal strategy. Standing there in melee range, not doing melee attacks, but using your bow with double traited Needful Haste is much better. This doesn't seem right.

After they took away Bow & Blade and gave it to all hunters, there's only one melee trait left and it's fairly weak. Some changes to base skills or upgraded/additional traits to help close combat would be nice.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

Interesting ideas. Guess we'll have to wait and see how the ideas are all implemented. I'd hate to see another -5% nerf to strength stance. Still don't know how that was decided upon...

[Odin_of_Freyr]

The problem with melee skills is that you need to be in melee range to use them.

If we cannot do the same amount of DPS at 40m as we can at 5m then we will feel nerfed whenever out of melee range. A ranged DPS class that's not as effective at range? I guess we could shift our thinking and stop calling ourselves a pure ranged DPS class. Unfortunately, raids are designed with the idea that there are ranged DPS classes in the game.


In general, Huntsman is preferred for raiding and fellowship instances. Sustained DPS over long fights. Usually standing out of range of any melee AOE attacks done by the raid bosses.

In general, BowMaster is preferred for soloing and PVP. High burst DPS that is very difficult to sustain. Usually standing at range but ending in melee range face-to-face with mobs.


It seems to me that any changes to the melee skills should be associated more closely with the BowMaster trait line instead of the Huntsman trait line.

I agree. Bowmaster seems better suited to melee abilities for PvP/solo purposes, but I will be very sad if the burst damage gets nerfed.

[kerryak]

I honestly had to look back and make sure this wasn't posted on April 1.....

I did too, bro.




@ ZC:
Thanks for the details, it's an interesting paradigm shift, but one that sounds more engaging than what we've got, which could make gameplay more fun.

[skadoink]

Some interesting possibilities there, but I'd still want fleet stance to add to defences, probably evade. For me, conceptually, mobility == dodging...

[NotYetMeasured]

Thanks, ZC. It's nice to have 2-way communication like this. No...it's great to have this type of communication!

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with.

As far as Hunstman goes, it sounds good if we are going to have a Merciful Shot-type melee attack ("quickly dispatching enemies"), sure! I can see the back-and-forth you describe working in a group setting if you are peeling enemies off a tank one at a time. Would it be viable solo? I suppose it certainly would with traited Needful Haste.

Quick Shot become Fast certainly makes a lot of sense too!


.

[Tannus]

I'm a huge fan of hunters getting some melee damage.

My feeling is that most of the "opposition" to hunters getting melee abilities comes from raid hunters who adamantly don't want to be in melee. For solo hunters like myself, the reality is that in a tough fight you're going to spend a lot of it in melee.

[Daynab]

That gives me an idea.... ToF traitline would allow Desperate Flight to work as an AoE for your whole group to escape!

In early beta, it had an induction and did exactly that

[Finrandiras]

Well, the reply from ZC looks pretty good.

This is what I imagine was his idea:
Bowmaster: ranged dps
Trapper of Foes: utility
Huntsman: fun build (like burgs have with the stealth and sneaking, captains with their heralds, loremasters traited blue etc)

I can support that, as long as our primary raid role will be premier ranged dps.

Also I love that the change to ToF will add more group utility, the CC aspect of it is perfect, but unfortunately as he stated if you can CC and not debuff or help the group in other way, you will always be behind Loremasters/Burglars.

[Daynab]

The problem is that the "fun" build becomes useless in raids and certain fellowships. It might be fun solo but that's about it. the time you spend going to melee is lost dps, and you'll get murdered in a raid if you go melee.

[Ayrolen]

::cracks knuckles::

GROSS. /cringe Don't make me slap you around like I do my husband when he does that around me.

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

I'm definitely liking the sound of this already.

Huntsman: <snip> However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.

/claps

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

Color me intrigued...

I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon.

Ooh ooh, are you going somewhere tropical? Take me, please!

[Finrandiras]

The problem is that the "fun" build becomes useless in raids and certain fellowships. It might be fun solo but that's about it. the time you spend going to melee is lost dps, and you'll get murdered in a raid if you go melee.

Well if 2 out of 3 builds are viable for raiding, thats 100% increase compared to last few years

And also take in mind not every hunter is raider, people who don't raid should have option for solo build.

[Lithium777]

::cracks knuckles::

First off, to the "but we just got updated!" people. Rumblings in other class forums may have begun to tip you off that more then just the Hunter is getting some work. We haven't made global announcements yet, but I think it may be fairly clear where this is going. Also, it will be some months before anything I've teased here hits game.

Yes, and I look forward to it for the lines that need it and class that need it.

Next, I want to give a big thankyou to the whole Hunter community here. The debate and discussion has been very helpful! I very much wanted to just throw some chum in the water and see what happened. While I didn't know exactly what to expect, I'm glad for what I did get.

I've been playing this class for almost as long as my captain, so my captain since the game launched and this for almost those same 4 years.... you did a great job with Huntsman and I like what you did with it this last update...I'll go further into the ideas you had for Huntsman in a few lines... they were good but...

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

So let me get this straight, traiting bow master will add 10% damage to all stances? This is intriguing, and I very much look forward to hearing from this more.

Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.

Enduring precision made into a line or passive bonus? another new trait.... I'm all ears. Sounds good. Don't see any other major concerns with Bow master.

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

Okay here's where we really get into it. These are all AWSOME ideas. I'll start simple, while I LOVE the idea of more skills on the move this would severely hurt the RK's strength for DPS. A hunter has longer range than a RK, making it so more and more of their skills can be spammed on the move (quickshot) will slowly phase out the usefulness of Rune Keeper DPS. However adding the other 2 single target focus skills to be allowed while moving would be acceptable in my opinion.

bow & blade: I like it, don't get me wrong but this game has ONE and i repeat one dedicated ranged DPS class (not tacical, physcial ranged damage.) melee does not, and should not be integrated further into this even though your ideas are solid. I like your idea on the focus building, they are good. But the new raid set has no might on it because thats what we wanted, and how we wanted it. It's good.

A trait to replace Enduring Precision would be nice... I would like to see a trait that is -5 seconds on Rain of Arrows cool down.

I also have an easy enough sustaining focus in a full focus build... even if every melee skill granted focus i would have no reason to stay in melee... focus in generated incredibly easy and I am never short of it since Swift Mercy was implimented.

Now what would be good would be to take this idea and implement it into a 4th trait line, or better yet, I say a new class designed with hybriding in mind from the get go. Similar to the RK which is DPS or Heals... implement a class that can do solid ranged or melee damage based on trait lines or stances. the Ranger's were skilled with Bow and with Blade. this would present the perfect opportunity to add a class like this to the game to do what you suggested. Hybrid and switch between melee and ranged. 2 handed weapons and bows and crossbows would be amazing for this.

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

i would love to see trapper of foes focus on, you knows... traps. Adding more utility and removing the dmg penalty is great as well. Looking forward to this one the most.

Examples as per requested. Add more to the legendary, have it sever the cooldowns for all traps. Allow trip wires in combat. Allow the combat traps to allow snares in combat and sever the cooldown between these 2 skills as well. Add more traps with more utility functions. You could have something similar the lure trap that helps allies. Athelas bundle. Would put up passive resistances to poisons and maybe a minor HoT. After all the Hunter is the survivalist class as well. this would fit it very well. Make AoE purge poison a trait in place of the Endurance stance trait since u are removing this. Make it function liek the LM Proof Against All Ills, no cool down addition. Just makes it AoE. The hunter's secondary role is back up CC and poison removals. THIS is what we need upgrading on, not Melee DPS. As Explained above a new class is best suited for that.

I think that's the important stuff. I'm going to be out for two weeks after this, so don't expect any more info any time soon. Please do continue discussing things, talking about what you want and don't want, and focus on examples, not hyperbole

GL, HF!

Looking forward to your next post and/or updates. Have fun wherever your going for 2 weeks.

[skorpion352]

In early beta, it had an induction and did exactly that

that indusction was still there at launch. it was removed in june 07 with the first major update ot the game titled book 9. they also increased its cooldown to 30 minutes with that patch

[Forgotten_Legend]

with all due respect... why do we need 2 archer classes when a few tweaks can be made to hunters? you keep asking for a ranger class... hunter IS LOTRO's "ranger" class... because in LOTR lore... Rangers are a specific group of people including Aragorn, who are of mixed elven/human decent. the only ranger class in game will be/has been the session play ranger (not-currently) available in the moors. (i suppose some of the epic session quests would count as well) Turbine has already said as much.

i understand some folks are adamantly opposed to buffing hunter melee... but like currently... if you don't like the (buffed) skills... continue not using them. if you want YOUR hunter to only be an archer... then so be it... i want MY hunter to feel like the class i was promised... an archer that could ALSO hold her own in melee. in short, please allow others the versatility that they've (i've, we've) been longing for since SoA, so we can shelve our RK alts (which incidentally still do about 10-20% more sustained DPS than hunters in raids, based on the parses i've seen. RKs easily breaking 1000 anywhere, while hunters only see 900+ in S:S against the LT's bird)

i suppose what i'm saying is, i respect your opinion of not wanting to change hunter anymore... but i strongly and respectively disagree.

speaking of upgrades... is there any chance that Improved Swift Bow (learned at 54) could be further improved to earn default 3 focus?

[Tannus]

bow & blade: I like it, don't get me wrong but this game has ONE and i repeat one dedicated ranged DPS class (not tacical, physcial ranged damage.) melee does not, and should not be integrated further into this even though your ideas are solid. I like your idea on the focus building, they are good. But the new raid set has no might on it because thats what we wanted, and how we wanted it. It's good.

I don't get your point. The raid set has no might, and raid hunters would be pure ranged dps hunters.
I don't see how that could possibly effect the fact that a "solo set" could have might and solo hunters can spec for a melee/ranged hybrid.

I don't carry a tank in my pocket, so improved melee skills would be of huge benefit to me.

[IGolbezI]

quickshot usable while moving? yea thats not overpowered in pvp at all.

[SerowLOTRO]

Maybe we'll get more debuffs in the ToF line that are triggered by causing the enemies to step into traps. Sorta like the Loremaster's Circles. As to how to position these... there's always the possibility of the Trap Launcher I would like to see Set Snare as a AOE effect rather than a trigger-once-and-it's-gone effect.

[thecman02]

I'm probably going to get yelled at by some, but I love the idea of fluid fighting in and out of melee range. It would make the moors a heck of a lot more fun actually being able to have a chance at 1vs1's. Most of the time "hunters" get hunted in 1v1's vs wargs.

[Waxe]

quickshot usable while moving? yea thats not overpowered in pvp at all.

I don't PvP, but to be able to do quick shot on the run does seem overpowered to me, or at the very least, does not make sense. It is a focus building skill, kind of hard to build focus on the run.

[Sainthood]

My first 2cents on this topic....

Firstly, thank ZC for the clarification.

I suspect all the aggro you just managed to tank was from saying that the hunter was designed to be a 'true bow and blade warrior' - which implied being another champ/guard wannabe, with the intention of being a viable melee character. In other words, not just someone who can survive the up close and personal, but should also be staying in melee range for a period of time in order to serve a good functioning role. That's not our role. Our role is ranged DPS (and now, some CC).

So, there was an idea that our role, our new function, was melee.... not that we'd just be more survivable when placed in that situation. There's a very big difference between the two concepts (and hence the comparisons with the other melee classes - and hence the 'negativity').


On the idea of the 'concept' of the hunter - Legolas. Let's just go back to the drawing boards and see what the picture really is. Scene 1: Moria, Balin's tomb. Enter: Cave-troll. What does our intrepid 'bow and blade warrior' do?? Pew-pew's at point-blank* range... note: NO sharp pointy stick (or metal), except that leaving the bow. Scene 2: Amon Sul. Enter, hordes of uruk-hai. What does our intrepid 'bow and blade warrior' do?? Pew-pews at point-blank range. He then takes out 3 (in the movie) uruk-hai, again at point-blank range, with his bow - melee daggers staying safely secured in their scabbards. After hearing a horn, he races through the woods, bow in hand, pew-pewing on the move (QS/PS on move, no induction?) Scene 3: Fields of Pelennor. Enter marmaluks. What does our intrepid 'bow and blade warrior' do? Pew-pews at point-blank range. Then, hops up on a marmaluk, and pew-pews some more. Then, jumps off the marmaluk, and keeps on pew-pewing.... daggers still safely secured away on his back.

In the movies, and basically intimated when not outright said in the books, Legolas leaves his knives on his back, unless absolutely necessary, which basically would mean when he was out of arrows (which, since it was a type of super-hero movie, meant never ).

So, if Legolas is the design you're going for, then melee has to be few and far between, and rates much much lower than ranged DPS. Useable, but not an intelligent viable alternative as a class action/role. (IIRC, even when he did go melee, it was briefly, and then he was back on the bow again ASAP... yes?)

So, I'd say that the idea of melee skills building focus would fit this idea.


In reference to S: not having an impact on traits, I disagree entirely. While I agree, it would be nice to do our max damage at any time, in any stance, I think it takes away from the builds by doing so. I stay in S:P because I get trait bonuses from doing so. I would be in S:S because of the trait bonuses for doing so. Free-for-all mixing and matching would, IMNSHO, mean more cookie-cutting, not less.

ToF suggestion - how about a shot that not only Fears the enemy, but makes them attack their own??? The sort of fear that makes people crush others in their panic to escape? The sort of panic that makes you fight anything, and anyone, in your way??

I'm glad I didn't get to this thread til after ZC got in his 2nd post, with more details... I like the improvements to the melee skills, but certainly don't want to be another 'viable' melee character... that would just cheapen me. (any chance we can have a class that only does 1 thing, but does it well? Instead of all this 'mixed-role' thing????)


*(using the technically incorrect definition of 'melee range'.... )

[Darzil]

I've always been amazed by how many hunters think hunters are rubbish in melee.

There are two legacies I like to have (on top of the more important ones to improve ranged damage) - Swift stroke Parry/Evade buff and Agile Rejoinder Heal Chance. I don't add many points to the first, but take the second all the way.

The result is that when an enemy reaches melee range, I use Swift Stroke, increasing my avoidance to near 30%. Any blow that is avoided doesn't set back inductions, it seems, making it easier to do bow dps. In addition, there is the (now 100%) Agile Rejoinder heal, which is larger than a Guardian's self heal.

Solo, add the Mirkwood crafted chestpiece with damage reduction, and the gloves with Heal procs. I wouldn't claim indestructability, but in melee range I'd rate my Hunter as pretty robust, and kills far faster than my other characters in melee range.

[Tamiya]

The problem is that the "fun" build becomes useless in raids and certain fellowships. It might be fun solo but that's about it. the time you spend going to melee is lost dps, and you'll get murdered in a raid if you go melee.

Cannot agree more.

Well if 2 out of 3 builds are viable for raiding, thats 100% increase compared to last few years

And also take in mind not every hunter is raider, people who don't raid should have option for solo build.

Are you saying you have problem soloing as a hunter now? So much so that it warrants a redesigned "solo" build?

There really isn't any solo quest content that a hunter cannot already solo as a ranged class. "Death from Below" is the ultimate solo test, and with the amount of CC a hunter has, many of the "fellowship" volume II epilogue content can be soloed quite easily as well.



I'm not going to say that a hybrid melee/ranged build is a bad idea, because I do in fact think it's a very interesting a concept. I've played such classes in other games before. Such a build really does belong to a new class though, and should not be squeezed into the Hunter class. Or if you must add it to the Hunter class, make it a fourth traitline.

Right now, as a ranged class, the hunter has a choice between fast-hitting and hard-hitting. These are healthy variations of ranged builds for a ranged class, regardless of situations. If you replace one of the traitlines with a melee/hybrid build just for the sake of it, then you end up limiting the actual options this ranged class has when it comes to actual ranged builds. Yes, notice I'm repeating "ranged" over and over. The Hunter is the only ranged class right now, and we should be getting even more viable variations of different ranged builds, and not be getting reduced to just one.

[Belnavar]

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

I love this and would like to see it in game. We have melee skills, but rarely use them, and as others pointed out many hunters end up doing induction bow skills while a mob is standing right in front of them. It's illogical and painful to play. I'd like our melee skills to be buffed a little and the rotation between the two and the 'on the go' nature of this trait lines sounds wonderful and makes it very different to the other lines.

I think you should go for it and just move some of the old trait bonuses to other lines, to traits, or to new skills as we level from 65-75.

-Bel

[protofunk]

That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.
GL, HF!

As a player who almost exclusively solos, I LOVE these proposed changes. I don't know what kind of crazy ranged damage some of the people in this thread are doing, but depending on the enemy I don't always find I can pick something off before it closes to melee range with me. I would think I'm not the only one in that situation, so these would make some very welcome improvements.