An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

[Lithium777]

I'm not sure which Legolas you are referring to, but I prefer the Legolas from the movie. If a mob comes in melee range, take your arrow and poke it in their eye and/or throat. I guess that's more Bow & Arrow than Bow & Blade...



.

Blindside! best animation in the game. *stab in eye with arrow*

[Sainthood]

Blindside! best animation in the game. *stab in eye with arrow*

Needs to really be blindside

Speaking of Legolas.... just where exactly, in either the book or movie, did he put down a trap???

Btw, ZC, since you're looking strongly at Hunter and what to do with it, may I also suggest looking at hunter gear. No, not just LI's or armour, but also other gear. I get sick and tired of seeing a nice piece of jewellery that has +tactical crit (esp that +6%) over and over and over and over and over again..... yeah, great for healers (who is going to be against that), and RK's must simply love the extra DPS they can do - but when is there going to be a similar amount of jewellery that has +RCrit or +Rdam?? Do RK's really need some nice shiny bling to compensate for something much smaller...????

[Surmoth]

Just going to throw in another thing, the first time I played my hunter during the introduction I died several times. Why? Well, the mobs got into close range and as such it was logical for me to change into melee. After a couple of levels I found out I should just stay in ranged mode all the time, as such I could just press 1-2-3-4-REPEAT (QS -> Barbed Arrow -> Swift Bow -> Penetrating shot) if I wanted too.

[Tinluen]

Now that you have given us a bit more information about the direction you want to go I like the idea of the melee building focus. It sounds like you want to give the hunter community the chance to "stance dance" to make us more adaptable in battle. I can get behind that philosophy IF>> you change your thoughts on huntsman. Leave it as it stands, the fast consistant dps TRAIT LINE that many have fallen in love with. Change the Bow and Blade hunter to the Endurance STANCE and you will make many of us very happy.

I will quickly rehash my previous post because I think it illustrates the perfect way to blend in the Bow and Blade hunter into every hunter's rotation at some point in the game. Endurance is, by far, the least used stance by hunters. I almost never run it anymore with the changes that were made duing last book. It needs some love.

Endurance is the ideal way to let a hunter go toe to toe with mobs. Hell, even the name screams, "I will stand my ground!" When in Endurance STANCE the hunter receives +25% damage to all melee skills, +25% to +50% bonus to armor (can use a traitline skill to bump it up for those who want it), -25% threat reduction, and -15% ranged damage.

This makes it the anti strength stance, you drop to it to reduce your threat but get a 30% penalty to ranged by doing so. This will also make it a great way to build back focus with the plans on making melee attacks generate focus. Many hunters who do use endurance have been running in S:S and have either run out of power or hit the theat cap. They use endurance stance to "reset" S:S. By making these changes it would allow this to happen much quicker, and give the dual wielding crowd a stance to run in prementantly if they choose.

The buffs make off tanking viable compared to optimal. It will not overpower a hunter to take the role of a guard, warden or cappie since we have no means to block attacks. It will allow the healers a bit of extra time to breathe a bit when a big baddie jumps on the hunter because the hunter has the ability to shed that threat plus a bit more survivability with the extra armor added. The hunter should pay a price to ranged attacks while in melee mode, but it is offset by the chance to get rid of some unwanted threat as well.

This change will keep the TRAIT LINES intact, and allow the hunter to be more deliberate in managing threat. Since it is a STANCE we will not be running to the bard nearest you to retrait all the time. It makes it a choice for hunters, even if you don't want to melee you get the threat reduction, and the -15% ranged hit will also lower your chances of climbing the threat ladder while in Endurance. Hunters that want to wade in with blades flashing can get a bonus for doing so. I humbly submit this idea as something that can make the class better by creating a useful stance rather than tearing apart a trait line many here love and would hate to see changed.

Oh.. make tracking invisible mobs innate at level 60, we are hunters after all. And.. do something with Bow of the Righteous it is anything but legendary. Give it more power return or revamp the skill. As it stands it is not worthy of its name.

Tydalmir

[NotYetMeasured]

Blindside! best animation in the game. *stab in eye with arrow*

Ha ha, now I have to look more closely the next time I use that skill.


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[Thraxz1982]

::cracks knuckles::
Huntsman: While I knew that bringing up melee would pique peoples curiosity, I admit to being taken aback by how much negativity it generated. Legolas quickly dispatching enemies at range and in melee is the archtype the class was built on and one that many still identify with. A monthly update was not enough time to make the kind that would bring the Huntsman up to a Legolas standard, but an expansion is. Before I say anymore, yes, I understand that Hunters do not use melee much. I believe that this is more because that there is little reason or benefit, not because it isn't exciting to switch between melee and ranged combat during a fight. However, it seems I did my job too well in the last update, many are rather fond of the state the Huntsman is in and do not want it changed. Such feedback has effected me, and I'm backing off from making the Huntsman a melee/ranged hybrid. Instead, minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.
That said, here are some details for what I was planning for the line: All melee skills grant focus, ranged skills increase melee damage while melee skills increase ranged damage (with applications/removals to encourage switching between ranged and melee at some kind of tempo - 10 seconds ranged buffed, 10 seconds melee buffed), extending Fleetness to buff melee, make quickshot usable while moving (ie: no induction). Basically, allow the class to fluidly swap between melee and ranged and gain benefits for doing so, while giving it even more mobility and induction-less attacks.

I LOVE this idea, but we need a low aggro way to deal lots of DPS. How about you do ALL of the plans you just laid out, and instead bring back fleet stance, because quite frankly, that's what fleet stance should have been.

Trapper of Foes: "But you just made it awesome, don't nerf it!" Don't worry, I'm not changing Trapper to nerf it. When the last update hit, a lot of feedback on the line was focused on the damage reduction still being unappreciated, and penshot still not being what people hoped for. I intend on changing both of those. Further, the realities of endgame are that CC is often negated by boss mechanics, making a class that CC's focus on support through debuffs, buffs or restoration. The trapper will trade some of his straight CC for more generally applicable support abilities. Lastly, I'm going to try to add new trap mechanics in that make the Trapper more about traps!

Take care not to make us LM clones, but a different flavor of buffs.

[drexele]

i like the idea of less inductions on skills (as long as dmg isnt nerfed)i realy like what u (or maybe it was a dif dev) did wiht pen shot and the lesser inducs will helpwhen i accidently 4 enemies making any skill with an induction horrible to use (this ofcourse is if needful haste is on cooldown)

[FoxFire]

Don't listen to all these melee hunter haters ZC.

I don't know if all these anti-melee hunters are constantly running to their 40m range or what, but that's gotta be pretty cumbersome on play, and just plain silly. I won't do that. I REFUSE to do that. Okay... I often do that.

But frankly, while soloing I'd rather not always get into maximum range so I can down a mob before it gets to me. If I'm rolling along I don't always want to focus up, lay traps, etc... I'd rather get right in the action. If I'm in a field of mobs or there is a mob I need to take out that is closer, even with my well-honed rotation, I'm going to be doing some melee with it, and frankly I'd like those skills to be better.

If I pull multiple mobs, sure I can do some CC (traps, fears, short stuns), but chances are the thing will be back in melee range before I get to it, and you know what I DON'T always want to fear the thing away or root it, and then run to range or sit around twiddling my thumbs till I have some distance to fill it full of arrows.

And sometimes it's just advantageous to be in melee range. No I don't waste my Blindside for focus pips, IF I know I'm fighting a mob that I'll need the Blindside interrupt for (which is one great reason to be in melee range on occasion).

So yes Zombie, your ideas of giving hunters the ability to more easily and naturally switch between ranged and melee with more effective melee skills, sounds like a GREAT idea. I'm all for it.

[FoxFire]

One melee skill (addition to a melee skill) I'd like to see, is one that reduces our threat when used.

This is unimportant when we are soloing, we will always have top threat.

But when in groups. If you pull aggro and a mob closes within melee range, it would be nice to have a melee attack that helps us reduce our threat, so the tank can more easily grab it back.

[Waxe]

One melee skill (addition to a melee skill) I'd like to see, is one that reduces our threat when used.

This is unimportant when we are soloing, we will always have top threat.

But when in groups. If you pull aggro and a mob closes within melee range, it would be nice to have a melee attack that helps us reduce our threat, so the tank can more easily grab it back.

That's a pretty good idea.

[Caranthon]

I do not have anything against using melee skills if I am in melee range, but:
I just want to use those skills to get a benefit for my next few range attacks. eg: gain focus or maybe the next induction cant be broken, or mezz an enemy so I can do the next range attack etc.
I would not be forced to use melee attacks, because they are making more damage than my range attacks. <- and this was/is my reason to say: I do not want to be an hybrid melee/range hunter in the huntsman traitline.

[FoxFire]

P.S. While you're at it.... Why don't snare-trap bleeds stack? They aren't all that powerful to begin with, and it's not often you're running around with more than a couple of hunters anyhow. So... can't you let those snare bleeds stack?

[Ayrolen]

P.S. While you're at it.... Why don't snare-trap bleeds stack? They aren't all that powerful to begin with, and it's not often you're running around with more than a couple of hunters anyhow. So... can't you let those snare bleeds stack?

Yes, please.

+1

[Ayrolen]

Don't listen to all these melee hunter haters ZC.

I don't know if all these anti-melee hunters are constantly running to their 40m range or what, but that's gotta be pretty cumbersome on play, and just plain silly. I won't do that. I REFUSE to do that. Okay... I often do that.

But frankly, while soloing I'd rather not always get into maximum range so I can down a mob before it gets to me. If I'm rolling along I don't always want to focus up, lay traps, etc... I'd rather get right in the action. If I'm in a field of mobs or there is a mob I need to take out that is closer, even with my well-honed rotation, I'm going to be doing some melee with it, and frankly I'd like those skills to be better.

If I pull multiple mobs, sure I can do some CC (traps, fears, short stuns), but chances are the thing will be back in melee range before I get to it, and you know what I DON'T always want to fear the thing away or root it, and then run to range or sit around twiddling my thumbs till I have some distance to fill it full of arrows.

And sometimes it's just advantageous to be in melee range. No I don't waste my Blindside for focus pips, IF I know I'm fighting a mob that I'll need the Blindside interrupt for (which is one great reason to be in melee range on occasion).

So yes Zombie, your ideas of giving hunters the ability to more easily and naturally switch between ranged and melee with more effective melee skills, sounds like a GREAT idea. I'm all for it.

Agreed. I'd love some more melee utility. Having more utility doesn't mean I have to be in melee range more. It just means that if I am, I can actually get my weapons out that are just dangling there, looking pretty, and helping my stats and do some real damage, instead of hoping Needful Haste is up so I can get some ranged inductions off. I really don't see what all of the anti-melee fuss is about. /shrug

One melee skill (addition to a melee skill) I'd like to see, is one that reduces our threat when used.

This is unimportant when we are soloing, we will always have top threat.

But when in groups. If you pull aggro and a mob closes within melee range, it would be nice to have a melee attack that helps us reduce our threat, so the tank can more easily grab it back.

I like this, for when I'm running around with my husband's Champ. I bet it would help when I'm running solo skirmishes with my stupid Protector, too. He does a pretty good job in duo+ skirmishes, but I want to kick him during solos. What I wouldn't give for a soldier reset option, so I could put a few thousand points towards leveling something else.

[FoxFire]

Poison Removal:
We need to make group poison removal not dependant on equipping a trait. It needs to be something given at lvl 65 for our support requirement in groups and raids.

It can remain tied to traits, just make it part of a single slotted trait, OR at most part of a 2 equipped trait bonus. But the current 4 Deep into ToF is WAY too much (there are plenty of times we need group poison removal that wouldn't lend us to also being in the ToF line).

Also, yeah the poison removal animation is much too long. Maybe if it were shorter we wouldn't need a group poison removal as badly.

[Lycaunoss]

While I think I would enjoy more melee utility I wouldn't really want to be a hybrid ranged/melee. I was one of those hunters who tried the melee thing back in the day and I did run with axes. It wasn't terrible to be honest but I didn't enjoy it. I think what I'm seeing is people stressing the utility part which to me means things like the focus on Blindside extra parry on swift strike etc. So I'm all for more stuff like that.

What I would give for a knockback to put a mob back at range and not require me to move.....

Traited mostly huntsman and I do run enduring precision. I like speed. If there's any merging of BM and Hunstman skills so that Hunstman can be the hybrid melee/ranged then don't jack with the lowering of inductions. I like the speed and the thing I dislike most is sitting there watching a progress bar. I'm pretty sure I give up some dps by not running deeper in BM but I'd give that up for the lower inductions any day of the week.

[FoxFire]

What I would give for a knockback to put a mob back at range and not require me to move.....

I made a proposal not long ago to have a new hunter skill that would allow us to 'Jump Back', out of melee range while also getting off a shot. (Perhaps even a melee hit + midair shot).

This would be useful for grouping when you are in melee range and your tank gets aggro, so that you can get back out of a mob's standard melee AoE range, without losing a beat in your DPS.

Yes, this skill would separate the skilled hunter from the ???????, in that you would have to have good situational/positional awareness, so that you don't jump back into something dangerous or into the aggro range of another mob. And it will just make us THAT much cooler (especially if they gave it a sweet animation - like a back flip or something )

(Haha, I can't believe that word gets censored out. Weird. Okay let's say huntorally-challenged )

[Tarasque]

Ok, I really would like to see a true trap... one that dangles the target like a strangling tentacle from the watcher.

[Forgotten_Legend]

poison removal... i would SO TOTALLY approve making the group version into a slottable class trait. i personally like the single target remove 3 poisons no cooldown version... many people prefere the groupwaide removal with a 30 second cooldown. this would allow for more diversity in hunter builds.

i do not want to be forced into a 30 second cooldown poison removal for shallow traiting into trapper... or ever, for that matter

Ok, I really would like to see a true trap... one that dangles the target like a strangling tentacle from the watcher.

why not? how many times in movies and cartoons have we seen someone tie a lasso to a tree? then some guy steps into the losso and is hoisted up into the air, upside down!

[Nelavor]

Isn't it a little bit naive to think, a massive change in the hunter mechanics would only result in upsides with no downsides?

A shift to more powerful melee will result in diminished ranged ability. Like we had it several times before, with damage vs speed, speed vs power consumption, threat vs damage and so on.

My understanding of the hunter is to avoid melee at all costs. Kill the enemy before it gets to you. Trap it, slow it, mezz it, fear it. Get a feeling for induction CC that when it comes near you, it hasn't a chance to do you any harm.

If you want to improve hunters for no reason than making them stronger, simply improve the damage. Improve the attack speed, give him a real aggro dump. Remove those fancy unused legacies.

Maybe it is fun playing a melee/ranged class. Perhaps a new idea for a new class?

[FyreBrand]

@ZC: Thanks for the clarification.

Bowmaster - I like the idea of this trait line being stance independent.

Huntsmen - As I've said before I love the DDO ranger (and also how RIFT rogues play). I've never thought of hunters as anti-melee, but as excelling as single target damage dealers. Hunter melee is very viable up until around level 35 when it start to lag behind. Having a more fast paced roguish feel to the class would be a lot of fun. Something should be just as afraid to get in melee range as they are standing within LoS range. Your idea of bow and melee skills building on each other sounds good on paper. I'm looking forward to how this pans out.

Trapper - I've always wanted to like this trait line and using traps in general, but they've never worked out when BM or HM can do the job just as effectively with less expense and greater efficiency. We've talked about different options for traps before (traps as skills on independent timers with a single common crafted component, etc). I would love to see a more versatile trap and buff/debuff focus in this trait line.

------------------------------

One thing a lot of people like about huntsmen is the reduced skill timers (induction, etc). Maybe there could be a way for someone to trait for reduced skill times in any trait line. I think the reason behind this is because long inductions and long cooldowns aren't as fun as faster skills. When inductions, cooldowns, and skill times are shorter it gives a class a more action-oriented feel to it. That is the main reason I think people love Huntsmen; that and they can keep up good numbers while getting that faster paced feel.

Anyway, I'm sure you, Orion, and Gx2 will do a fine job. Class play in this game is one of its greatest strengths imo.

[Lithium777]

Isn't it a little bit naive to think, a massive change in the hunter mechanics would only result in upsides with no downsides?

Basically.

Maybe it is fun playing a melee/ranged class. Perhaps a new idea for a new class?

It would be, I'd love to play a class like this...however not the hunter.

[drexele]

i came up wiht this idea when when i was playing wiht knifes and main reason im suggesting is it would look so cool

what if we had skill that when the enemy falls below like 600hp (im 54 so ofcourse this # would increase wiht the lvl of enemies) u run fast get behind it and slice its throat i mean just picture that move it would be awesome and it could do like 400dmg or 200 and if if u go for lower dmg it could cuz i strong bleed or give u a buff

[rewrando5]

Ok, so I have been delayed posting, due to a busy weekend, and I have finally read this entire thread.

I must admit that my first reaction to the "Bow and Blade warrior" hint by ZC was "oh no! Not my favorite line!" However, after pondering and reading the second post (which granted, my delay benefited my hindsight), I can see great benefits to the ideas ZC has laid out. As I see it, there are pros and cons to the proposed changes.

Pros:
1. The hunter has always lacked the melée abilities the description claimed it would have. This would remedy that.

2. Hunters that enjoy soloing Rare named mobs might now be able to do so if the mob is CC immune, which is a pain atm

3. Hunters in 3-man and 6-man instances might see some improvement in off-tanking abilities, which would enhance their roles as the healer-protector.

4. PvMP might be easier, and these changes might enhance the hunter to have a strategy besides Camo+BH+HS.

5. The use of melée skills to build focus and an inductionless Quick Shot sounds great for kiting and building focus on the run, and building focus has always been an important aspect of the Huntsman line.

6. Alternating buffs as ZC mentioned would provide a more dynamic playstyle for the hunter, increasing the difficulty and making the good hunters stand out from everyone else.

Cons:
1. Hunters use Huntsman now because they like to shoot things really fast. I personally run 2/5/0 without the blue capstone usually, and with a full set of Hele armor. I feel so fast, and it's a rush! I would be saddened if my -induction bonuses went away. I also use the Focus Burn method, as I'm sure many of you here do, and the Huntsman line has many traits that are great for building Focus back up after it is used. Losing those would render a tried and true (not to mention loved) method useless.

2. The Huntsman line is the usual raid line, though I tend not to use Bowmaster at all even solo. I prefer the feel of the fast shots. Messing up the grouping line could affect the entire game.

3. Might is almost ignored or eliminated from most hunters' gear. It is my lowest or second lowest stat, depending on my jewelry setup for the situation. Melée offense comes a the expense of ranged offense on most jewelry. Therefore, even if you did buff our melée, unless we build our stats back up, we won't really notice the difference.?

4. Though these changes could potentially be great for PvMP, the devs maintain that they tend not to make decisions based on the effect changes will have on PvMP. I believe they try to balance PvMP from the creepside.

There are a lot of things to consider in these changes. Looking attempt pros vs the cons, I would like to see more melée incorporated, but not at the expense of the speed I am accustomed to.

Overall, I was very impressed with the update last time, especially considering how often the nerf-bat hits us. I had a laundry list of things in a thread a few months back (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...28#post5155828) and almost all of my requests were met. I will put the remaining ones here for further discussion:

"Our group usefulness would be greatly increased by having the fellowship-wide poison removal, but our utility could be even greater. Hunters are crackshots, or at least they should be. What about different shots designed to impede our foes in combat? Parry debuffs are present in Enedwaith, how about letting us in on that action? Or disarms, like the ranged disarm present in orcs in Mirkwood. There are precedents, and there are no disarm skills for any class currently present in the game. This could greatly enhance our grouping ability, as dps classes often serve two roles (champs can transfer aggro, RKs can heal)."

"8. Make it so Strength of the Earth doesn't get interrupted by every breath of wind in the forest. That is all about that. Love the skill, best power regen in the game. Please never nerf it. "

I feel that it in fact was nerfed. It returns about a third of the power it did before, and the bonus to morale regen isn't worth it for such a short channel. It also still gets interrupted very easily. It was the only thing that saddened me about the update.

"9. Strong Traps trait should make it so that my traps DO NOT AT ALL let my prey out when I am shooting them. I personally believe that my traps shouldn't release them anyway, as I would hope that I am not shooting my prey's feet, but rather their head and heart like a good archer would. Every time something escapes my trap because I hit it, it insults me, as it implies I was a terrible shot. :P

10. Trapper of Foes could include a traitline bonus that allows us to move slowly in Camouflage. No bonuses to attack out of it, as we don't want to be burgs. Just make us a little more "hunter-ish""


To sum it up, ZC, you are my favorite dev and I trust you. Do what you will, and I will keep playing the class.

[EvilTreerat]

Gad damn it! The morons whining wins again! ZC, if he's still at Turbine go ask Sporkfire what happened to Planetside when they listen to a bunch of whiny brats who threw a tantrum because a change to give options and got the change reversed. I'll give you a hint - Planetside went from 3 servers and possible reactivating another one to barely 1 server in less than a year afterwards. If people whine about a change that gives options, especially when the change isn't even off the drawing board, those are the people you do not want to listen to. For all they knew your changes could have left Huntsman exactly as it was (ie NO CHANGE TO RANGED DAMAGE) and just added the extra damage to melee. Instead they started screaming worse than the most spoiled 4 year old you have seen when their parent tells them they get no desert until they eat the food they ordered.

Especially when you had changes like those. Want to play an archer go Bow Master (isn't the name a big enough hint?) or stay at range. Want to play a Huntsman then you need to learn when to stay at range, when to go melee, and when to swap between them. Please do not listen to these people in the future. It really stinks to keep seeing good ideas torn to pieces because some whiny brat can't handle the concept of their way not being the "best" way to play.