An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

[Halvaethor]

So.... make a champion?

My advice is if you want to play melee, create a champ. They're great for melee. But if you want to play a hunter, you are a RANGED combatant. You see, that's what a hunter is.

Here we go again with this type of mentality. Nobody said that us, in favor of changes to the hunter's melee attacks, wanted to play melee exclusively. We chose a hunter so that we can deal death from afar; we just wanted to improve our melee skills so that you can deal with those pesky enemies/adds that gets too close for comfort. We do not, I repeat, do not want to rush head long into opponents and slash with our blades/axes. If we would then we are better of playing a melee class.

His tools are bows and crossbows and arrows and bolts. A hunter shouldn't know which end of a sword to hold, and his skills should reflect this.

Now this is where you are horribly mistaken, mate. If this was the truth, then why would Turbine or J.R.R. Tolkien himself equip archers/hunters/rangers with swords, axes, spears and clubs eh? Read the books, my friend; and if you don't have the time, then just watch the movies, even just one.

I used to play other MMORPGs that have archer classes that do not even have melee weapons, you are just forced to use your bow and arrows even at point blank range. Now, that isn't the case with LOTRO. Us hunters are forced to use melee weapons automatically when the need arises. I am just suggesting that we improve these melee skills to the point that they are worth using because as of the moment, most hunters just use Dazing blow, Low cut and the occasional Blindside. Is that too much to ask, mate? Nobody said that range skills will be nerfed, not even ZC.

[LionZero]

Not gonna reread this whole thread to find out if people already posted these suggestions or changes they'd like,

But the thing i'd like to see changed the most are the skills that are instant yet have a 1-2 sec animation that even roots you on place, like Purge poison intend concentration and the likes, what i prefer to see done to this is like Duty bound for instance it has an animation but you can move while using it, unlike strenght of morale, purge poison, intend concentration and the likes, obviously other classes also have to deal with these animation roots on instant skills and it slows down the action a lot.

Another minor thing to note for the hunter specific is that Shot through the heart damage for removing the bleed is always common damage, is this WAI or should it adapt to the weapon or oil damage i assume the latter is in place here.

[SCHawks73]

Can someone please link the changes? When I click on ZC's link to the blog, it's about nothing but RoI's Monster Play...

Thanks.

[Forgotten_Legend]

hammer... i don't believe they're trying to make the hunter into a melee class... they're just trying to make all three of our traitlines useful, and distinctly different. one of the lines will still be dedicated totally to ranged damage. i hope its a combo of focus burn and increased damage (and moving the reduced inductions into passive traits instead of traitset bonuses... bonii?) and second traitline will be dedicated to utility... trapper of foes... and the last traitline would be dedicated to the ranged/melee hybrid.

to everyone: its just like any class... trait for the role you prefer. if you don't want to go melee/ranged hybrid, don't! no one is forcing you to. in all honesty, i think the ranged traitline will still be the line of choice for raids.

[Luthyen]

Bowmaster: No longer tied to Strength stance.

Actually, I think that the Bowmaster traitline should focus even more on the Strength stance. Increase its damage but force that high DPS output to be tied to the Strength stance.

[Luthyen]

The only three complaints I can come up with about the CLASS as it stands now is this:

1) I like the Heartseeker skill now. It just needs a bit more 'punch'.

3) The Press Onward skill is useless in solo. If you are grouped, people can keep mobs off of you so that you can actually use that skill. But when soloing, that skill might as well not exist. The induction is just too long if you don't have somebody else holding aggro while you use it. Press Onward is a hunter's friend, but only when he is grouped and probably already has access to healing by a minstrel. Where it is really needed, in solo play, it is totally useless. I don't even have the trait slotted. No point trying to use a heal that has a five second induction. Out of battle, the induction takes longer than it takes me to heal naturally, so I obviously don't need it out of combat.

I strongly agree with these 2 suggestions.
Heartseeker is a great hunter skill, but it is lacking a bit more strength to get truly useful, given its long induction. But, most of all, Press Onward needs to be revamped in order to be useful to solo hunters. It's not my case, but I can understand their issue. Press Onward's induction is just too long, making the skill unusable to most solo players.

Zombie_Columbus, please take this in consideration.

[Tamiya]

Disagree.

Press Onward is mostly useful for solo. A single Distracting Shot, Bard's Arrow, Dazing Blow, or Rain of Thorn can buy you all the time to perform Press Onward (and Strength of the Earth).

If you are grouped with people who can keep the mobs off you, then you should never have much need for a big morale heal like Press Onward anyway, especially when there are healer classes that are better at restoring morale quickly.

[Milithion]

the only time, when i would need press onward is figthing against an elitemaster. (solo)
for all lower enemies this skill is simply not needed.

the problem with the elitemasters: thy are imun for cc, so i wont get through with the cast.

groupplay has been said before, there are normally other healers.

so for me, this skill is an unneeded legendary skill. and this is an shame to have such one.

[Lamda]

Please please please no melee for my beloved blue line!!! ((((((
omg

[cold_realms]

Not sure why everyone is so against adding melee anything but... how about something constructive?

We have three trait lines, three possibilities for different play styles that are reinforced by those lines. It has been said, many times and by many people, that the trait lines should be different and goal oriented, but they are not.

We have: Bow-master, Huntsman, and Trapper of Foes. Forgetting ToF for now, BM and HM are very close. One focuses on big ranged numbers, the other on speed.. net result is very similar in both playstyle and dps it's all ranged DPS. How do we effectively split those two and make us more than archers? (Remember we are hunters, not just bows with legs)

If BM is for massive hits at range (which it is) then it is doing it's job well nuff said.

HM however is all about the agility to handle any foe ranged or close (as evidenced by the reduced inductions, quicker atk speed, and the traited abilities to ignore knockbacks... things that only really make a difference in melee combat. PLUS the fact that this was modeled after the Legolas character!) However all the HM does now is make it easier to shoot your bow in melee... shouldn't the line allow us to shine in melee when the need arises and use that focus to range down the next thing that thinks we would be tasty on rye bread?

When ZC made that same argument all we heard from the vocal minority was "If you want to melee be a champ" and "I fear change so don't try to improve things!!" (Last one just a summary of posts) But few actual good reasons why or suggestions to the contrary.

Since beta all the hunter community has said is "We are supposed to be the best single target sustained DPS in the game" tell me how a line change that gives us the OPTION to continue that even in melee is somehow bad? Champs reign supreme in aoe dps and can tank, RK's ranged DPS and heal but are squishy, why is there no room for a real single target DPS king?

This is not about being a fake tank, or change for changes sake. BM and HM are not different as it stands, they accomplish the same goal. BM should be absolute god DPS at ranged but med dps in melee, HM should be solid DPS in both melee and ranged with benefits applied to encourage that kind of switch in order to maintain that DPS. ToF.. well that is a different topic as i could care less about it.

For those of you who only see the world through a raid windows here is how it would work:

• BM Traits: For raids (unless there is a need for a hunter offtank...o.0) and for Fellowships where you will have a tank and probably an off tank. Soloing really easy things where you are not likely to be overwhelmed by mobs.
• HM Traits: For Small groups/ duo's where you are the tank. Also for soloing in places that are actually challenging (t3 lvl 67 skirms, soloing t2 duoskirms, etc) .
• ToF traits: Solo play i guess (i never run those lines so someone else can fill this in.)

Remember that ZC wanted to pull the stance from the lines. so you could run S:S in any mode and not sacrifice any trait line benefits, same with S:P

Last thought on this rather rambling post. Think about how specialization / generalization works for a moment. If you specialize you should be really really good at that thing and kinda meh on others, if you generalize, then you have flexibility but do not excel at any one thing. Traits should be this way and in fact are for most classes, an Rk who traits for heals can still dps pretty well but their healing rocks... conversly if they trait for DPS then yes they can heal but not nearly as well. What really changes when a hunter traits BM vs HM? In the end not alot... HM hits faster and more often but for less.. BM just hits hard in the end they are a wash. What is wrong with being able to specialize????????

ZC I really hope you stick with your guns and push forward with your plans despite the chicken little and the knee jerk activists. Hell if it is a complete disaster it can be fixed... it's happened before with MoM

[Aestiliat]

ZC I really hope you stick with your guns and push forward with your plans despite the chicken little and the knee jerk activists. Hell if it is a complete disaster it can be fixed... it's happened before with MoM

Well said...
Hunters need to handle close combat as stated in our class' gameplay. No less no more.

[Luthyen]

Disagree.

Press Onward is mostly useful for solo. A single Distracting Shot, Bard's Arrow, Dazing Blow, or Rain of Thorn can buy you all the time to perform Press Onward (and Strength of the Earth).

Except for the small detail that... when a soloing hunter actually does need the morale boost from Press Onward is in battle with bosses that are immune to hunter's crowd-control skills.

Turning Press Onward into a no induction skill (known as Fast or Immediate skill in LOTRO terminology) would solve this issue for soloing hunters, but probably others would complain of its easier usage and power. Could be other solutions for the problem, though.

[Beldacar]

Disagree.

Press Onward is mostly useful for solo. A single Distracting Shot, Bard's Arrow, Dazing Blow, or Rain of Thorn can buy you all the time to perform Press Onward (and Strength of the Earth).

If you are grouped with people who can keep the mobs off you, then you should never have much need for a big morale heal like Press Onward anyway, especially when there are healer classes that are better at restoring morale quickly.

As Milithion and Luthyen stated, Press Onward is useless for soloing because the only time you'd need it would be facing an Elite Master; and Elite Masters are notoriously immune to all the crowd control skills that would buy you the time to use the skill.

As a matter of fact, the immunity of the majority of flake-droppers to crowd control was one of the two factors that led me to putting my Hunters on the back-burner. My Guardians can simply stand toe-to-toe with these things and bring home the Mithril Flakes; my Hunters, for the most part, have to resort to lame kiting (or simply give up and run away).

The other factor, of course, was the previous revamp the class received: nothing I dislike more than change just for the sake of change. Sure, ToF needed a bit of a boost (see previous paragraph for a hint as to why), but there was no good reason for the Heart Seeker nerf or for most of the trait line changes. If you're going to "fix" things, start by fixing things that actually are broken ... like Press Onward ;^)

[Beldacar]

Not sure why everyone is so against adding melee anything but... how about something constructive?

We have three trait lines, three possibilities for different play styles that are reinforced by those lines. It has been said, many times and by many people, that the trait lines should be different and goal oriented, but they are not.

We have: Bow-master, Huntsman, and Trapper of Foes. Forgetting ToF for now, BM and HM are very close. One focuses on big ranged numbers, the other on speed.. net result is very similar in both playstyle and dps it's all ranged DPS. How do we effectively split those two and make us more than archers? (Remember we are hunters, not just bows with legs)

Personally, I find the difference between Bowmaster and Huntsman to be night and day. Huntsman is generally much faster-paced due to Focus building up rapidly and being spent every two to four shots; Bowmaster is much slower-paced. Similarly, their group play is very different: Bowmasters spend a lot more of their time lying on the ground dead due to having gained aggro ;^)

If BM is for massive hits at range (which it is) then it is doing it's job well nuff said.

HM however is all about the agility to handle any foe ranged or close (as evidenced by the reduced inductions, quicker atk speed, and the traited abilities to ignore knockbacks... things that only really make a difference in melee combat. PLUS the fact that this was modeled after the Legolas character!) However all the HM does now is make it easier to shoot your bow in melee... shouldn't the line allow us to shine in melee when the need arises and use that focus to range down the next thing that thinks we would be tasty on rye bread?

When ZC made that same argument all we heard from the vocal minority was "If you want to melee be a champ" and "I fear change so don't try to improve things!!" (Last one just a summary of posts) But few actual good reasons why or suggestions to the contrary.

I don't "fear" change; I simply dislike it immensely when it's unnecessary. These are not at all the same things ;^)

Since beta all the hunter community has said is "We are supposed to be the best single target sustained DPS in the game" tell me how a line change that gives us the OPTION to continue that even in melee is somehow bad? Champs reign supreme in aoe dps and can tank, RK's ranged DPS and heal but are squishy, why is there no room for a real single target DPS king?

There is. Both Rune-keepers and Hunters fit that role just fine. War-speech Minstrels don't do too shabby, either. You'll note that all three classes have something in common: they rely on range. It's hard to be the most effective DPS class if you spend a large portion of your time running up to things before doing damage to them.

This is not about being a fake tank, or change for changes sake. BM and HM are not different as it stands, they accomplish the same goal. BM should be absolute god DPS at ranged but med dps in melee, HM should be solid DPS in both melee and ranged with benefits applied to encourage that kind of switch in order to maintain that DPS. ToF.. well that is a different topic as i could care less about it.

Yeah, it pretty much is about being a fake tank, or change for the sake of change. Has a large segment of the Hunter community been clamoring for increased melee ability? No? They why add it?

SNIP

Last thought on this rather rambling post. Think about how specialization / generalization works for a moment. If you specialize you should be really really good at that thing and kinda meh on others, if you generalize, then you have flexibility but do not excel at any one thing. Traits should be this way and in fact are for most classes, an Rk who traits for heals can still dps pretty well but their healing rocks... conversly if they trait for DPS then yes they can heal but not nearly as well. What really changes when a hunter traits BM vs HM? In the end not alot... HM hits faster and more often but for less.. BM just hits hard in the end they are a wash. What is wrong with being able to specialize????????

Because if you make Bowmaster clearly superior at ranged DPS, you will find that the number of Hunters traiting the Huntsman line will suddenly shrink dramatically. MMO players, as a group, don't like playing classes (or trait lines) that make them jacks-of-all-trades. More importantly, MMO players, as a group, generally don't invite jacks-of-all-trades classes into their groups unless there's a very real benefit from doing so. And apart from DPS, Hunters simply don't offer that benefit. Especially now that Champions are getting their tanking ability beefed up, there's absolutely no point in trying to compete with them for small fellowship tanking or any other such nonsense. It's quite clear that the ideal small fellowship composition is heading toward Minstrel/RK (healing/DPS) + Champion/OP Guardian (tanking/DPS) + Hunter/RK/Champion (DPS). Just as Trapper of Foes-traited Hunters almost never get invited to group for their crowd control abilities, so Huntsman-traited Hunters will almost never get invited to group for their melee abilities. The end result will be two gimped trait lines instead of just one.

ZC I really hope you stick with your guns and push forward with your plans despite the chicken little and the knee jerk activists. Hell if it is a complete disaster it can be fixed... it's happened before with MoM

Personally, I'd rather nip bad ideas in the bud =before= Turbine wastes resources on them. Unfortunately, there are always optimists who say "let's wait and see how it all plays out before we complain." Dude, if you wait to see how it plays out, it's waaaaay too late.

[kerryak]

I see no reason why the Hunter should have a kill zone shaped like a doughnut... even if it is national doughnut day.

10 out of 10 Tony Stark's say Randy's Donuts are the bestast.







(although I agree, I don't mind the idea of a melee hunter, but the whole "omg in melee keep using bow skills" thing has always irked me from a realism standpoint. not that I care much for that while I run around digitally drunk, through hobbiton, as a hobbit, that wears boots and shoots light arrows.)



We all know hobbits don't wear boots, ja-heeeez.

[Lithium777]

Turning Press Onward into a no induction skill (known as Fast or Immediate skill in LOTRO terminology)

Just fyi...fast and immediate do NOT mean just no induction, they mean they skip auto attacks *fast* or skip autoattacks and do not wait for whatever skill is goign to finish (immediate). There are tons of skills with no inductions that are not fast or immediate. Actually the majority of no inductions skill are not fast or immediate in this game. The hunter just has alot of them because they are a DPS class. Go play any other class and you won't see so many.

Similarly, their group play is very different: Bowmasters spend a lot more of their time lying on the ground dead due to having gained aggro ;^)

I dont know who you play with but that usually means bad tank to me :P In raid situations I almost never have agro even in a max DPS strength stance rotation.

The end result will be two gimped trait lines instead of just one.

Basically this, there is NOTHING wrong with improving the melee abilities of hunter's. However there is something wrong with dedicating the only true ranged(weapon) DPS class to a melee trait line.

[Beldacar]

Just fyi...fast and immediate do NOT mean just no induction, they mean they skip auto attacks *fast* or skip autoattacks and do not wait for whatever skill is goign to finish (immediate). There are tons of skills with no inductions that are not fast or immediate. Actually the majority of no inductions skill are not fast or immediate in this game. The hunter just has alot of them because they are a DPS class. Go play any other class and you won't see so many.



I dont know who you play with but that usually means bad tank to me :P In raid situations I almost never have agro even in a max DPS strength stance rotation.

I don't raid. And when a DPS class dies in a group situation, 90% of the time it's the DPS player's fault. The classic example is the Bowmaster-traited Hunter blasting away in Strength Stance, who doesn't even have Beneath Notice on his hotbars. All it takes is one big crit and suddenly "Hunter is back on the menu, boys!"

Basically this, there is NOTHING wrong with improving the melee abilities of hunter's. However there is something wrong with dedicating the only true ranged(weapon) DPS class to a melee trait line.

Exactly. Want to improve Hunter melee ability? Go right ahead. But make it an addition to the Huntsman line. No tradeoffs. None. Huntsman line keeps everything it already has =and= gets some nifty extra melee ability. Because otherwise it will join Trapper of Foes on the discount rack, only to be picked up by noobs and jaded veterans looking for a challenge.

[cold_realms]

Beld - you miss my point... several times in fact.

First - BM and HM. Yes HM is faster, but in the end the DPS is a wash makeing no FUNCTIONAL difference.

Second - Please see the responce to the revised bank vault for examples of people fearing change without thinking.

Third - Ahh but you miss the point. I did not say single target RANGED dps... i said single target DPS. That counts both Melee and Ranged. Again remember we are Hunters.. not archers. Bringing up minnies is moot as they must become sub-par healers to do so and in a group no one is auctioning out for a DPS minny.

Fourth - The number of people posting on the forums vs those leaving the class or making due i would argue is at least 1:10 in favor of not clamoring... You make my point for the ridiculousness of knee-jerk reactions. Tank is agro management, high moral, and huge mitigation... largely a group role. If you bothered to read the post before attacking it you would see that BM is the Group role, HM with melee would be for when there is no tank. You want a tank be a tank, but saying that hunters must stay at range is missing the point.

Fifth - Your supposition is flawed, again because you fail to read the whole post. BM as highest RANGED dps, when your not going to be in melee choose this! But goign into melee kills that even now with the slow attacks and no way to minimize induction knockbacks. You make HM SINGLE TARGET dps for both Melee and Ranged knowing that you will only really shine DPS wise when you do both ... In that senario noone will abandon any stance en-masse (what do you have against people doing what they please?). Inviting a hunter for melee abilities is two fold: First, it's about our DPS not a way of doing it (remember that full groups would be BM if you are afraid to get dirty, HM is you don't mind a bit of rough and tumble. Second: If we had good abilities in melee we would get invites for that (and if not it's still about DPS). People assume that we cannot get into a fight. I say try being the only melee in a t2 instance or group skirm and tell me we are squishy. Additionally you assume i was somehow advocating generalization.. i was not. Please re-read.


Sixth - Oh yes please let allow the vocal MINORITY to dictate life and stifle innovation! Going back to the bank vault example i mentioned in the beginning peopel had the same responce, now which do you think people would choose now after having experienced it? We did not even get the full layout of what MIGHT change and people threw fits, but as shown by your response, people wouldn't bother to read the whole thing anyway...

[cold_realms]

Last post... if people are so stuck in thier ways that they cannot even try to think outside thier walled garden then no post is goign to do it, it will either be ignored, misread, or just flamed because that is how the vocal MINORITY work, scream so loud that thier voice is the only one heard.

I don't raid. And when a DPS class dies in a group situation, 90% of the time it's the DPS player's fault. The classic example is the Bowmaster-traited Hunter blasting away in Strength Stance, who doesn't even have Beneath Notice on his hotbars. All it takes is one big crit and suddenly "Hunter is back on the menu, boys!"

True that. Aggro management in raids is the responsibility of each person. You want agrro, it's up toy ou to get it, you don't want agrro.. it's up to you to get rid of it (or not to have it in the first place)

Exactly. Want to improve Hunter melee ability? Go right ahead. But make it an addition to the Huntsman line. No tradeoffs. None. Huntsman line keeps everything it already has =and= gets some nifty extra melee ability. Because otherwise it will join Trapper of Foes on the discount rack, only to be picked up by noobs and jaded veterans looking for a challenge.

Maybe, but then you have balancing issue, where now noone runs BM because HM is so overpowered. There must be balance... hence why you tie it to melee. But that is the rub... people don't want to HAVE to melee (Forgetting they could just re-trait).... that is what ZC was trying to do before people went nuts, stifled innovation before the balance could be worked out.

[Beldacar]

Last post... if people are so stuck in thier ways that they cannot even try to think outside thier walled garden then no post is goign to do it, it will either be ignored, misread, or just flamed because that is how the vocal MINORITY work, scream so loud that thier voice is the only one heard.

Thanks, but change for the sake of change is just as bad as stagnation. Change, when it's a response to an actual need, is good. Hunters already deal the best single target DPS. Period. Ranged or not ranged. The distinction is irrelevant. Don't try to use Heart Seeker in melee, but other than that, what damage skill can a Hunter currently not use in melee?

Maybe, but then you have balancing issue, where now noone runs BM because HM is so overpowered. There must be balance... hence why you tie it to melee. But that is the rub... people don't want to HAVE to melee (Forgetting they could just re-trait).... that is what ZC was trying to do before people went nuts, stifled innovation before the balance could be worked out.

Not all innovation is good. Bad innovation should be stifled before resources are wasted on it.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

Hunters already deal the best single target DPS. Period. Ranged or not ranged.

If you're trolling, you win.

If not, I'm sorry. I take pride in putting out some rockin' DPS single-target, but I have a half-glass RK that I can out do my hunter with. I try to push the limits, but hunter just can't match an RK. I'm sure there are times where a champ can match or surpass a hunter, but I don't have one, so I won't state that they can't. I've tried everything in the book to make my hunter tops, sacrificing morale for ICPR to sustain, trying all trait lines, etc... Hunter's just not #1. Its ok though since imo they are more survivable than RKs. Don't tell me they're #1 unless you can back it up with repeatable solid parsed numbers. If you show them or provide those numbers, then I'd like to talk about what I'm doing wrong. Best of luck showing the parses.

[Lithium777]

If you're trolling, you win.

If not, I'm sorry. I take pride in putting out some rockin' DPS single-target, but I have a half-glass RK that I can out do my hunter with. I try to push the limits, but hunter just can't match an RK. I'm sure there are times where a champ can match or surpass a hunter, but I don't have one, so I won't state that they can't. I've tried everything in the book to make my hunter tops, sacrificing morale for ICPR to sustain, trying all trait lines, etc... Hunter's just not #1. Its ok though since imo they are more survivable than RKs. Don't tell me they're #1 unless you can back it up with repeatable solid parsed numbers. If you show them or provide those numbers, then I'd like to talk about what I'm doing wrong. Best of luck showing the parses.

I dont save parses but... I'd like to see where your getting this, I've never seen even the best DPS RK out DPS me CONSISTENTLY. RK's have potential to output major burst DPS. But this doesn't always happen. However the best champion will probably output the most single target DPS, there arn't many champions this decent however that I've noticed.

[Beldacar]

If you're trolling, you win.

If not, I'm sorry. I take pride in putting out some rockin' DPS single-target, but I have a half-glass RK that I can out do my hunter with. I try to push the limits, but hunter just can't match an RK. I'm sure there are times where a champ can match or surpass a hunter, but I don't have one, so I won't state that they can't. I've tried everything in the book to make my hunter tops, sacrificing morale for ICPR to sustain, trying all trait lines, etc... Hunter's just not #1. Its ok though since imo they are more survivable than RKs. Don't tell me they're #1 unless you can back it up with repeatable solid parsed numbers. If you show them or provide those numbers, then I'd like to talk about what I'm doing wrong. Best of luck showing the parses.

I guess I should clarify and say "sustained" single target DPS. Rune-keepers (and Minstrels, for that matter) can top a Hunter at "burst" DPS. But the gap between "best" and "worst" isn't all that large. Frankly, I haven't bothered with parses for a very long time; I don't raid, so I'd only be competing against myself. What's the point? But I can say that my Hunters invariably kill their opponents faster than any class they might compete with, as long as they take them on one at a time.

Which leads to survivability: I simply can't agree with your assessment. Any class that can heal itself will have better survivability than a Hunter. My Rune-Keeper is third in line behind my Guardian and Warden for survivability. Of course, she's also traited almost purely for healing. My Hunters are quite laughably far behind on this particular measure.

I'll also add that the biggest advantage Hunters have is the ease with which they can crank out that superior DPS. At one point I used to dual box my Guardian and Hunter. And I could quite literally play the Hunter with my left hand by simply hitting the same three keys over and over. Back in those days, I =was= parsing, and I found it amusing that my Hunter was still pulling down about 85% of the same DPS he was doing if I actually played him as a solo character.... (QS, BA, PS; QS, PS; QS, QS, PS; repeat as needed)

[Harla]

ZC mentioned after his explanatory post that he'd be out for a while, but that time has now passed, so hopefully we'll be seeing some more detail on what he has in mind, and some useful specifics so we can offer more solid feedback.

That said, and I know a LOT has been said by a lot of people, here's my feeling on the matter:

The ideology is cool, and in many way the proposed changes to huntsman to make it a fluid ranged/melee hybrid is very interesting, and would conceivably be great fun to play. however, there's an underlying, simple, fact that really must prevent it from being done in this way:

We have Casters, sure; there are three notably different Casters, and the ability to pick the Caster class that bests suits you from amongst them is neat, but some of us don't want to play Casters.

We have Melees of varying flavours, sure; five of our nine, in fact, are Melees of varying types; if you want to play a Melee class, you're almost certianly going to be able to find the variety of Melee player that is right for you, be it Tank, Dmage-dealer, Supporter; swift and subtle, loud and heavy, etc.... but some of us don't want to play a Melee class.

There is One (singular) Ranged class. Hunter is It, that is all there is. We cannot pick the Ranged class that most suits us, becuase there is -only- this one ranged class. If we want to play a ranged character, then hunter is what we must role. So many of us will have rolled a hunter because what we want to play is a Ranged Class. Pushing us towards using our Melee more, and interweaving our Melee into the class might be cool; it might be an awesome mechanic that is fun, and it might be implimented flawlessly and beautifully, but in this sense, it still should not be done, because some of us want to play a Ranged Class, and -This- is our only choice.

Now, frankly I think a class based and designed around the ability to move fluidly between effective ranged and effective melee combat is a fantastic ideology: As muhc as I have spoken out against the extraneous creation of new clases for the sake of doing so, this is onethat I'd actually support. Moreso, in fact, because it would then be at least partially a choice or ranaged classes. I would support the creation of a new class to be based and designed aroun this concept, rather than attempting to foist incresingly more melee focus onto hunters.


Trapper of Foes:

I love it where it is, and use it for certain thigns and on occasion. When worked fully, it now providees utterly superior CC options ,and that's great, since it requires full trating and preparedness to go the extra distance to make it work.

I am VERY annoyed that the Improved Pen Auto-break bug has STILL, after All This Time, STILL not been rectified. Improved Pen, as a CC skill MUST disengage your Auto-attack, the same as all other CC skills. If you do NOT disengage your AA manually before firing a an Improved Pen at somthign to root it, and the target is more than ~20 metres away, the -Completely Unavoidable- Auto-Attack that follows the Pen will break the root instantly. the apparent grace period either is not working, or is counted as having elapsed during the travel time ofhte arrow. Please, you fixed Bard's Arrow... Fix this too.

Beyond that, I think more trap skills that have a variety of effects would be nifty. If trapper line could be made to grant trap-type skills similar to the array of craftable traps, that'd be great, or if we could get other interesting trap effects (I'm a Trapper... why can't I have that nifty Frost-Nova trap from the Rift skirmish?)... But don't take away any of our CC options from the line. Let trapper remain the line that can only be made to work by hunters who are prepared to think about what they're doing.

-Niara

P.S. I'm not necessarily going to put myself in the boat of "I only want to play a ranged calss" but I know that there are many that want to do just that, and pretty much only that; They are as valid a group as any other, and given that hunter is our Only choice for a Ranged class at the moment, that ought to be respected, one way or the other.

[Lithium777]

Now, frankly I think a class based and designed around the ability to move fluidly between effective ranged and effective melee combat is a fantastic ideology: As muhc as I have spoken out against the extraneous creation of new clases for the sake of doing so, this is onethat I'd actually support. Moreso, in fact, because it would then be at least partially a choice or ranaged classes. I would support the creation of a new class to be based and designed aroun this concept, rather than attempting to foist incresingly more melee focus onto hunters.

Ya i think this would be an awsome basis for a Dunedain Ranger class. have a ranged DPS trait line, a melee DPS trait line and a hybrid between the two traitline. would be AWSOME and quickly, if done right, become one of my favorite classes.