Rise of Isengard: Dev Diary Feedback: Stat Updates

[D3-Rook]

Not sure about radnesse er I mean finadiance er no sorry I mean finesse. It looks much like a way to soft gate raids. Sure you can go in but you wont be able to do anything. Will have to wait and see.

[CaerArianrhod]

30% is the cap from offense rating. Your class traits, battle scrolls, and other buffs can take the percentage higher than 30% - there's effectively no cap on the percentage, just the percentage from rating. Champs can get over +100% melee offense for brief periods of time if they wish.

Hmm ... can you explain that?

For example: inc. healing at 15%, my guardian has a number of 4800 at 15%, change something: the number is 5500 at still 15%: the cap.
Block at 14,3% , use the block-stance with +5%. Now block is at 19,3%.
Block at 14,3% use the threat-stance (increase block by number-value). Now block is at 15% even if the number value is higher than in block-stance.

So if you say "things" can take percentage higher, it means "things" with percentag on them can take percentage higher. Seems right. But simple non-percentage values can not (?) take the cap higher.

Let's look at the LM:
Ancient Whisdom (+60 Will). So I'm on cap with 650 Will (precisely: 653)
Tactical offense: 10.460
Remove Staff from equip: tactical offence: 8440
-------------------------
On the Staff: 650 + 1200 tact. offense = 1850
On the Staff: 17 will (20 -3 over cap) = 170
Altogether: 2020
-------------------------
Sum: 8440 + 2020 = 10.460

Nothing with percentage. Everything just number-values. 30% would be allready caped by 650 will.
This is why I mean, the 30% can't be right.

CA

[ElFenix]

Finesse - if this is a rating shouldn't it have AGI as a component, rather than something completely item based? And don't we already have a to-hit chance determined by AGI? Is the game just exposing that mechanic now are will Finesse actively debuff mobs/players based on relative Finesse levels?


Seems like just somewhere else that something may have good intentions but end up not working out and just adding to the grind. If you really want to break the mold figure out end game content that isn't a treadmill.

[moebius92]

Hmm ... can you explain that?

For example: inc. healing at 15%, my guardian has a number of 4800 at 15%, change something: the number is 5500 at still 15%: the cap.
Block at 14,3% , use the block-stance with +5%. Now block is at 19,3%.
Block at 14,3% use the threat-stance (increase block by number-value). Now block is at 15% even if the number value is higher than in block-stance.

So if you say "things" can take percentage higher, it means "things" with percentag on them can take percentage higher. Seems right. But simple non-percentage values can not (?) take the cap higher.

Let's look at the LM:
Ancient Whisdom (+60 Will). So I'm on cap with 650 Will (precisely: 653)
Tactical offense: 10.460
Remove Staff from equip: tactical offence: 8440
-------------------------
On the Staff: 650 + 1200 tact. offense = 1850
On the Staff: 17 will (20 -3 over cap) = 170
Altogether: 2020
-------------------------
Sum: 8440 + 2020 = 10.460

Nothing with percentage. Everything just number-values. 30% would be allready caped by 650 will.
This is why I mean, the 30% can't be right.

CA

For block, your first example is correct - the +5% from block stance can push you over the 15% cap.

For your LM's case, you do have a +x% tactical damage bonus you're not considering - from your MoNF trait set bonuses. At a guess, you've got +15% tactical damage from MoNF, which means you have four or more MoNF traits slotted.

Edit: Also 10460 tactical offense rating will only give you 28.9% +tactical damage at level 65 (see here) - if you've got 43.9%, you must be getting the extra 15% from somewhere. At level 65, the 30% cap requires a rating of 11050 - you're close, but not quite there yet.

[Sparrow794]

Wow.

Catering to min-maxing raiders. Super idea. I guess if you don't want a straight gear gate mechanic, just add a stat that will make the community do your gear gating for you.

Reorganizing the stats so that your players have less options when building their character, and not more, is a shame. This all reads to me as being forced into a shallower, cookie cutter stat build approved by Turbine. What next, ... force me to take a QK spec and play a burglar like a rogue? I thought better of Turbine than this. LoTRO is the last bastion of hope in a sea of horribly shallow MMO's with mechanics that punish the creative player instead of rewarding them; and this is a step towards getting your flagship title lost in that sea of garbage.

[Beorthelion]

Yes, if you maintain the 15% block in ratings that you are allowed now. However if you increase your Might and add +block rating gear you'll probably see even more blocks.




Yes...well eventually. It may or may not be done for Isengard launch.

O.o Yes...well eventually........what if we say please pretty please with an Orc's head on top?

[CaerArianrhod]

For block, your first example is correct - the +5% from block stance can push you over the 15% cap.

For your LM's case, you do have a +x% tactical damage bonus you're not considering - from your MoNF trait set bonuses. At a guess, you've got +15% tactical damage from MoNF, which means you have four or more MoNF traits slotted.

Edit: Also 10460 tactical offense rating will only give you 28.9% +tactical damage at level 65 (see here) - if you've got 43.9%, you must be getting the extra 15% from somewhere. At level 65, the 30% cap requires a rating of 11050 - you're close, but not quite there yet.

You right, thank you for the hint. 15% are coming from MoNF. I have read the linked thread (again), but the formula is still a riddle for me (how one comes to " constant = 1190 / 3" ???)
constant = rating * (1 - percentage) / (percentage * level)
constant = 10460 * (1 - 28,9) / (28,9 *65) = -155,3548

EDIT: okay, they mean: percentage = your percent-value / 100. which gives: 395,90417 (instead of -155,3..), which is close to 1190/3 (= 396,66..)

But this geting OT here, I think.

CA

[PsychobabbleJJ]

Wow.

Catering to min-maxing raiders. Super idea. I guess if you don't want a straight gear gate mechanic, just add a stat that will make the community do your gear gating for you.

Reorganizing the stats so that your players have less options when building their character, and not more, is a shame. This all reads to me as being forced into a shallower, cookie cutter stat build approved by Turbine. What next, ... force me to take a QK spec and play a burglar like a rogue? I thought better of Turbine than this. LoTRO is the last bastion of hope in a sea of horribly shallow MMO's with mechanics that punish the creative player instead of rewarding them; and this is a step towards getting your flagship title lost in that sea of garbage.

i'm not sure why people think that these changes, on balance, result in less options. Just to take an example, the change to lore-master's melee offence rating coming from will instead of might is completely irelevant in actual character build decision making - no loremaster in their right mind would ever pump might becuase at the moment it contributes to melee offence so neglibly. So there is no real tradeoff here at the moment.

And the removal of the stat caps results in far more options for character building and tradeoffs. At the moment, many classes don't have to make any sort of tradeoff between desired stats. Should I build for Will for Tac offence/outgoing healing/power or should i pump fate for ICPR/crit chance? The answer at the moment is "both" because it's very easy to cap em, or effectively do so, at the same time with end game gear. Remove the stat cap and I suddenly need to make some meaningful choices.

Ditto for tanks. At the moment they can cap or effectively cap m/a/v while also capping melee defence and one or more of b/p/e and also incoming healing (with top tier end game gear). Remove or massively increase the caps and suddenly they need to make genuine choices about what stats they concentrate on and in what ratios.

[deeman25845601]

Critical Hit Rating – will replace the separate melee, ranged and tactical critical hit ratings previously appearing on items. Critical hit rating will enable all attacks to have an increased chance to critical hit.

So what stat is going to increase Critical Hit Rating? Right now, Agility increases Melee & Ranged Critical Ratings, and Fate increases Tactical Critical Ratings.

Is it going to stay like that? With Tact classes using Fate and Melee/Ranged using Agility? With the cap increasing to 25% maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to have both of them add to Critical Hit Rating.

[furtim]

So what stat is going to increase Critical Hit Rating? Right now, Agility increases Melee & Ranged Critical Ratings, and Fate increases Tactical Critical Ratings.

This, I'd definitely like to see an answer for. Perhaps both contribute to the overall rating? I don't know of any class that wants both of those (correct me if I'm wrong) enough for that to be overpowering. Especially if diminishing returns applies to the final rating, as I believe it does, rather than to the contribution from individual stats.

[Ardineck]

Stats will be getting an update with the launch of The Rise of Isengard™. Read more about these changes in the latest developer diary from Ken "Graalx2" Burd and post your comments here!

The changes seem interesting, but as I never fully understood my stat contributions to "primary" and "secondary" ratings, I am even further in the dark now. I get that hunters like agility, guards and champs like might, etc., but I don't see how it all fits together. Are we being encouraged to have more well rounded characters or should we forget everything that isn't our primary stat now?

[BerenTelcontar]

This, to me, seems like a 'dumbing down' of stats and classes... I don't care for the idea of making everything simpler. On the other hand, this way they don't need to give us more gear options, or a custom crafting mechanism.

I suppose it will probably appeal to more people...

/sigh

[Streloc]

is this change paving the way for more stat tomes in the turbine store?

[Nemulas]

Well this is a biggie. Caps have been with us for such a long time it's going to take a major adjustment. Up till now gearing a tank has been like designing a formula 1 car - you can't just go hog wild on a massive engine, because there's a limit to engine capacity, you can't just put it on a crash diet as there's a minimum weight rule, you can't chav/rice it out with gargantuan spoilers because there's limits to how big these can be as well. I kind of like the well-rounded machine my tank has become.

But, setting the block cap at 15% has always been idiotic. Blocking is much easier than parry or evade. They should have doubled the cap, and doubled the rate at which block rating converts to %, from the moment Moria launched. Limiting it to 15 limits the usefulness of a shield guadian or warden.. glad it's changing.

I'm concerned about how this all ties in with the racial traits system though. Previously, with stat tomes i could hit the cap on block and vitality easily enough, now i will be at an obvious disadvantage - 95 less morale, 2% less block rating.

[Naesraen]

You right, thank you for the hint. 15% are coming from MoNF. I have read the linked thread (again), but the formula is still a riddle for me (how one comes to " constant = 1190 / 3" ???)
constant = rating * (1 - percentage) / (percentage * level)
constant = 10460 * (1 - 28,9) / (28,9 *65) = -155,3548

EDIT: okay, they mean: percentage = your percent-value / 100. which gives: 395,90417 (instead of -155,3..), which is close to 1190/3 (= 396,66..)

But this geting OT here, I think.

CA

as a LM, you get (from memory) +15% melee offence increase from the Staff and Sword legendary - which every LM equips and never unslots, so it's easy to forget about

the way stats currently work in this game: +rating can and will hit a cap (currently, say 30% melee offence); +% will take you over cap - the 'cap' *only* applies to ratings-based increases. so your LM gets well over-cap on melee offence due to traits and legendary traits - champs do the same thing in fervour.

the benefit of this change is not really to those classes with a +% bonus: my burg is at 17.9% evade in burglar stance now; he'll be the same on Day 1 of RoI; your LM will be the same. the benefit accrues to those classes with big, wasted +ratings bonuses: my warden, on Day 1 of RoI, will be considerably higher than 15% Block and 15% Evade, when i've got Shield Mastery and Dance of War running - Block will be close to the new 25% Block cap

[ararax]

Ok all secondary characteristics Except for Critical Defence.

For the changes to primary stat contributions I only listed the changes. Guardians and Wardens for example, still get 5 Morale per Vitality.

Partial Avoidance is still at the present cap.

Finesse will be a much kinder and gentler gate, if it even rises to that level. The numbers in the following example are for demonstration purposes only. Please do not take them as ‘The Way Things Are’. They are only meant to be an example of our intent.

A top-of the line Raid Boss will probably have BPE and Resistance around 35% total with lesser bosses and trash elites having much less. A few pieces of crafted or quest gear give 10-15% off those totals and another 10-15% Finesse available through instance/raid loot this will lower BPE into more than acceptable levels. That’s the plan anyway and as such subject to change.

If it becomes one, it affects DPS and Tanks, but not support or healers.

[Maelendil]

If it becomes one, it affects DPS and Tanks, but not support or healers.

Actually it affects tanks twice: we have to hit to create threat, and not get beaten too badly.

[Walgor]

Hi, i just wanted to say BIG THANKS for removing the caps. They were one of the things that I hated most about this game and that totally ruined the fun from the character optimization.

[Zweiblumen]

is this change paving the way for more stat tomes in the turbine store?

Of course it does. Stat tomes will probably stack to 10 soon after the expansion launches. Or better yet 12, to "bring them in line with Virtues." And the first thing they probably did after deciding on the stat changes was design the icons for Finesse Tomes on the store.

They said they wouldn't sell Radiance in the store. So their solution is to remove it, getting some short-term pats on the back from the players, lulling us into thinking they've turned a corner and are doing things to benefit us for a change. Then at the first opportunity they implement a subtler gating mechanism that they've never said they won't sell in the store, thus paving the way for Finesse Tomes while keeping their consciences relatively clear.

Transparent bait and switch. For shame, Turbine.

[Flammable70]

Will virtues be revamped to retain differentiation? Otherwise, if all virtue resists just change to the generic resist, there will be a lot less differentiation.

[Ugmo]

"This means that Lore-masters, Minstrels and Runekeepers will use Will to contribute to their Melee offence."

This thread is pretty long at this point and I read a lot of it, but not all of it so this may have been answered somewhere already, and I'm not understanding something.

Say I'm a Lore Master and my Will is 500..will I now fight as well as a Champion with a 500 Might in melee?

[Fuaim_Catha]

"We have also changed the contribution to most class’s Offence ratings to use their primary stat * 10. This means that Lore-masters, Minstrels and Runekeepers will use Will to contribute to their Melee offence. Hunters will use Agility for their Melee offence and Guardians, Champions and Wardenswill use Might for their Ranged offence ratings."

How does this make any sense?
Having a high strength score doesn't mean my guard can fire bolts from his crossbow any harder.

[Fabled_Tales]

I'm sure someone has already answered this, but not really interested in reading 19 pages.

What the heck are you doing to the minstrels? Why? Please explain to me why? So all this grinding I've been doing is so I can be a dps minie? What do i do to level my outgoing healing now? Am I going to have to spend another 10 gold in game to reset myself? Why are you increasing the minies dps? And how am I supposed to get my minstrel ready for healing in Isengaurd. Please tell me what stat will be for outgoing healing.

I am so dissapointed, this is so stupid and the worst thing turbine has ever done. So what is the heal class? And fellowship's heart has no use, so I should just remove that. While I'm at it, I might as well throw out all of my healing gear, because it appears I will never need it again.

Some of us, aren't interested in being dps minies, and you've completely screwed over those of us with minstrel mains. I guess my minstrel is now utterly useless. So what stat do I need to work on for outgoing healing? If anyone can tell me, I'd appreciate it, since I apparently have to fix my minstrel before Isengard comes out.

Bad move turbine, failblog yourself.

[DelgonTheWise]

Of course it does. Stat tomes will probably stack to 10 soon after the expansion launches. Or better yet 12, to "bring them in line with Virtues." And the first thing they probably did after deciding on the stat changes was design the icons for Finesse Tomes on the store.

They said they wouldn't sell Radiance in the store. So their solution is to remove it, getting some short-term pats on the back from the players, lulling us into thinking they've turned a corner and are doing things to benefit us for a change. Then at the first opportunity they implement a subtler gating mechanism that they've never said they won't sell in the store, thus paving the way for Finesse Tomes while keeping their consciences relatively clear.

Transparent bait and switch. For shame, Turbine.

You cynic you!

Sadly, the stat tome part of the above was my very first thought also when I read the Stat update Dev Diary. Guess the store/F2P has made cynics of many of us...

I'm still not quite sure what to make of Finesse. But I'd guess I don't like it (didn't like Radiance, though I had 160 Rad available by the end). It will make itemization choices much more limiting/irritating unless it is really prevalent on raid/instance loot, and make crafted stuff that doesn't have finesse (some will apparently) even more useless...

[Digero]

Of course it does. Stat tomes will probably stack to 10 soon after the expansion launches. Or better yet 12, to "bring them in line with Virtues." And the first thing they probably did after deciding on the stat changes was design the icons for Finesse Tomes on the store.

They said they wouldn't sell Radiance in the store. So their solution is to remove it, getting some short-term pats on the back from the players, lulling us into thinking they've turned a corner and are doing things to benefit us for a change. Then at the first opportunity they implement a subtler gating mechanism that they've never said they won't sell in the store, thus paving the way for Finesse Tomes while keeping their consciences relatively clear.

Transparent bait and switch. For shame, Turbine.

Wow, berating Turbine for something that you think might happen? Well played.