An Update: On Upcoming Changes to Hunters

[Hirandiel]

I like how we are now. If they mess up hunstman (my favorite line) and make it into some melee build garbage I am going to be a little upset. The focus with the hunter should always be ranged. If you want to melee more go play champ/ burg/ captain/ guard/ warden. As it stands we're really the only physical ranged dps class. I'd like to keep it that way.

[Forgotten_Legend]

the only way i can see hunters getting a pet is to nerf our ranged damage to balance the difference. i'd much rather have my melee skills buffed into useful DPS, since our DPS goes down when in melee already.

[Wanderv]

some more melee love isn't bad. But we should have it in solo traitline tied with S:S. It's logical, in solo we often engage in melee. It's also logical to call this traitline 'Huntsman'. Then 'Bowmaster' should be what blue line is now minus melee but plus damage traits. So just exchange some traits and bonuses, traits that speed up shooting go to Bowmaster, traits and bonuses useful for solo go to Hutsman. Bowmaster will be tied to S:P, Huntsman to S:S.

[VincentVanPort]

some more melee love isn't bad. But we should have it in solo traitline tied with S:S. It's logical, in solo we often engage in melee. It's also logical to call this traitline 'Huntsman'. Then 'Bowmaster' should be what blue line is now minus melee but plus damage traits. So just exchange some traits and bonuses, traits that speed up shooting go to Bowmaster, traits and bonuses useful for solo go to Hutsman. Bowmaster will be tied to S:P, Huntsman to S:S.

That would mean to switch everything around. Things that have been set in stone for nearly 3 years now. This would be close to another revamp. Honestly I believe that ZC is not going to do much, apart from focusgenerating melee attacks. The DMG needs to nearly double in order to make any of them worthwhile. Blindside needs to become an immediate skill, and dmg should go up as well. And I still prefer updates to my ranged skills than wasting it on stupid melee skills that have not been in my bars for years.
I mean imagine going online, gaining ten levels and all you get is 500 points of parry on swift stroke, generating one focus, the agile rejoinder heal getting a buff to +200 morale, hmm and the melee skill that takes the bleed off (wouldn't even know the english term), leaves the bleed on while dealing 300 points of damage. I would enrage.

Agile rejoinder and swift stroke will probably become worthless in many parts of the game because of the new finesse system. I just can not imagine our parry or evade (which now is at 8% each) to go up to 15% in order to counter finesse on mobs. Especially in the moors, or against bosses, even elite mobs we'll probably see even less avoidances.

Have to wait for Bullroarer to come up though.

[SungXe]

Which is good, imagine with the removal of stat caps and making agility our primary stat (new Hunter Armor will reflect that) we actually could end up with 15% Evade an Parry.

Lucky us! NPC / Creep Finesse will fix it, and cuts us down (and the melee skill buffs) to where we are used to them. (*Hint* Useless).


Imagine, Hunters having decent P/E values. This would mean our characters truly evolve with the rise of Stat Points each Expansion, the madness!

[brelaras]

What hunters really need is improved resolute aim for melee combat ( it means no setbacks on bow inductions with or without needful haste)
Need to improve beneath care such that the there is loss of threat over time for short duration along with instant threat reduction (current mechanics of this skill decreases threat for 10 sec but u gain it back once the duration is over)

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Which is good, imagine with the removal of stat caps and making agility our primary stat (new Hunter Armor will reflect that) we actually could end up with 15% Evade an Parry.

Lucky us! NPC / Creep Finesse will fix it, and cuts us down (and the melee skill buffs) to where we are used to them. (*Hint* Useless).


Imagine, Hunters having decent P/E values. This would mean our characters truly evolve with the rise of Stat Points each Expansion, the madness!

So are we going to be hitting with wet noodles whilst wearing and buffing with those noodles, or are we going to be taking and giving hits like Rocky?

If we get buffed in melee and our Huntsman line remains the same at range, how on earth are poor wardens supposed to maintain aggro? How are we going to raise both melee and agility to be able to hit well at range and melee yet still have the room in the build for ICPR, moral and the almighty finesse?

Simple fix that can really change the offense rating for melee/range would be give agility 10 to melee/ranged offense and just drop might altogether. It works for Burglars, right?

I like the possibility of just running around inductionless- after all Uruk Blackarrow's are getting this come to think of it why not take a look at what it entails:

Hard Hitter (Complete Overhaul)

Current: Stance: -10m Range for +15% Ranged Damage

Reason for Change: Players dislike this due to its range reduction combined with induction based skills. Blackarrows need a stance that gives them harassment/survival abilities. This stance will now allow them to move and shoot like an RK at the cost of damage.

-Skill is renamed “Skirmisher Stance”
-Reduces Range of Ranged Skills by 20m.
-Removes inductions and reduces cooldowns on ‘kite’ oriented skills.
-Allow use while moving.

- Strong Pull
-Flaming Arrow
-Hindering Shot
-Tangle Shot

Take a look at it- removed inductions and reduced cooldowns? Good Lord, aside from the Reduced Range this is what we have wanted Fleet Stance to do for years. The recent change to Penetrating Shot has been great- I would gladly delete my RK to have the same applied to all the other focus shots. But removed inductions? Heck I'll delete all my other characters to play without inductions whilst in Improved Fleet.

The requirement to occasionally mix it up a little with melee I'm a little iffy about. If done right where we hit hard but don't stay in for any more than 1-2 hits I might be fine with it. But how often we have to do this until we get the buff to use inductionless attacks? How much will it take to maintain these buffs and will long stuns/phase changes in bosses wipe these buffs? There's only so many hoops that you can use to gate a rotation before players opt for a different traitline or class that offers mediocre rewards at little risk and comparatively much less effort.

[Galadhlinn]

All this sounds interesting.

I'm still holding out hope for fleet stance . . some day.

For us moors folks, would luv to see a low-cut resistance legacy. When it works, it's a lot of fun. It always works against a group of creeps, but it so often fails against a solo. If we had the low-cut resistance legacy, we would finally be able to fight solo . . reasonably.

-G

[Forgotten_Legend]

hmmm.... removing enduring precision and graceful draw? to be replaced by what i wonder? hmmm, does that mean some traits will be moved from trapper line in favor of new trapper traits?

Bowmaster: My main goal is to remove the strong tie to Strength Stance. This does not mean nerfs, only that the buffs Bowmaster bestows onto S:S will apply regardless of stance. This change indicates a general shift in the stance design on the class. All stance altering traits and set bonuses will be repurposed and their buffs will be redistributed. My intention is to allow Hunters of all traitlines the ability to change stance based on circumstances. As part of this, I'll be changing the stances around to ensure each of them is better at what they do well. Besides that the Bowmaster will be very close to what it is now.

...minor edits like Bowmaster will be made, mainly removing traits that effect specific stances.

also, in light of how Orion is using champ stances to alter more skills while "in-stance," (like cooldowns of defensive skills in glory, certain attacks getting buffed in fervour, others buffed with ardour), are there plans for hunter stances to alter more skills than just quick shot?

[VincentVanPort]

hmmm.... removing enduring precision and graceful draw? to be replaced by what i wonder? hmmm, does that mean some traits will be moved from trapper line in favor of new trapper traits?



also, in light of how Orion is using champ stances to alter more skills while "in-stance," (like cooldowns of defensive skills in glory, certain attacks getting buffed in fervour, others buffed with ardour), are there plans for hunter stances to alter more skills than just quick shot?

So that means switching to S:S will leave us with 10% higher power costs, 15% higher threat, and the QS slow? I do not know whether this is appreciated then, especially if precision gets another boost. I rather have real differences between stances than switching for just a slow. It is time to change graceful draw though, the trait does not make sense at alle at the moment, since, when traiting it, and being in endurance you will never pull aggro, the same applies to stealthy shot. If anything, threat-reducing traits should be moved to traitlines that actually deal damage, maybe added as bonuses towards bowmaster or huntsman.
Enduring precision would be worth a look if it applied to all stances, but usually focus is not THE problem. You only trait it when you are 5 deep in huntsman and there you are using S:P anyways.
In order to apply more reactive skills towards the stances you would need quite a bit of work done, I guess that is a lot of effort to implement more reactives that we never really needed. Remember there are only 10 levels meaning five improved skills. I believe the best we can hope for that ZC is understanding how this class. Actual playtime would be great. :P

The whole trapping system needs to be revamped though. Concerning usefulness, they are probably not much worse than untraited Irritating shot, or Improved campfire, or desperate flight. A couple more trapping skills, or consumable trapping kits, that are used for ecry kind of trap would be appreciated. And move these darn traps into the woordworker line, so more hunters have access to traps, since every weaponsmith is woodworker too.

Though I would rather see decent overhauls to the traitlines used instead of trying hard to make a cc-line fit in, while neglecting our dmg-dealing primary role.

[Daeloth07]

So that means switching to S:S will leave us with 10% higher power costs, 15% higher threat, and the QS slow?

plus 10% more Damage.

I rather have real differences between stances than switching for just a slow. It is time to change graceful draw though, the trait does not make sense at alle at the moment, since, when traiting it, and being in endurance you will never pull aggro, the same applies to stealthy shot. If anything, threat-reducing traits should be moved to traitlines that actually deal damage, maybe added as bonuses towards bowmaster or huntsman.

True, but Stance: Endurance don't make sense at all.
It brings nothing to the table execpt a threat and a power reduce.
Both is not needed, precision do well.

Enduring precision would be worth a look if it applied to all stances, but usually focus is not THE problem. You only trait it when you are 5 deep in huntsman and there you are using S:P anyways.

But then, why you should skill 5 deep? If you're able to use strengh stance, 4b/3r gives you a 13% damage boost and you save 6 focus every 30 seconds. Fleetness is to weak at the time being.

Thats the point which bugs me most. Like i said many times before: i like shorter attack speed and inductions. But the advantages of Fleetness (-15% induction, -10% attack duration) is not enough to compensate the damage grated through bowmaster. So why 2 damage linies if one is weaker than the other?

I believe the best we can hope for that ZC is understanding how this class. Actual playtime would be great. :P
[...]
The whole trapping system needs to be revamped though. Concerning usefulness, they are probably not much worse than untraited Irritating shot, or Improved campfire, or desperate flight. A couple more trapping skills, or consumable trapping kits, that are used for ecry kind of trap would be appreciated. And move these darn traps into the woordworker line, so more hunters have access to traps, since every weaponsmith is woodworker too.

Though I would rather see decent overhauls to the traitlines used instead of trying hard to make a cc-line fit in, while neglecting our dmg-dealing primary role.

Amen

[Tinluen]

True, but Stance: Endurance don't make sense at all.
It brings nothing to the table execpt a threat and a power reduce.
Both is not needed, precision do well.

Make Endurance your "Melee Stance" it already has some of the things you want for it anyway. All you need to do is add a +25% to melee damage, +25% to armour, double the Agile Rejoinder heal, -50% power reduction to melee skills and take a -30% reduction to ranged skills. I would also go one step further by giving Scourging Blow (useless at the moment) a threat reduction per hit. At a 5 second cooldown it will give hunters a controlable way to shed aggro that we do not have now.

By doing this we accomplish two things, we can leave the huntsman line alone, and we create a viable melee stance for hunters. With the "improved" Endurance above hunters can make amends for grabbing too much aggro. While in S:E we can shed aggro, do some melee damage, and make it a bit easier for the healers to keep us up. We will not endanger champs or OP guards in melee competiton and while we can still range we will pay a price for doing so. It would be benefical to raiders, solo hunters and even would make an Moors build a challenge.

The Devs seem to want a "stance dance" option for hunters. By changing Endurance they don't have to change Huntsman (which many of us love as is). I agree that S:S needs something more than just the added damage bonus and the slow. The slow can be made up by slotting the barbed arrow slow if it is needed, and it is just a bit weaker but lasts twice as long as the S:S slow. Strength stance should get a boost to what is says.. strength... let the swift bow get a bigger punch or give the heartseeker a bigger bite (but make it cost more on power).

Why change lines again when we can make some small changes to the stances? By using percentages the Devs can fix any "OOOPPPPSSS" moments from a obviously over powered change or by increasing something that is a good idea but less than stellar in performance when things go live. It would be much easier for a Dev to say, "Hey the skill is just too powerful right now we are reducing the percentage from 25% to 15% to bring it into line with what we expected, or we loved the idea of better protection in S:E the 25% isn't cutting it so we are making it 35%." This is much easier than going back once again to rework the Huntsman, Bowmaster, and Trapper lines.

Tydalmir

[SerowLOTRO]

Make Endurance your "Melee Stance" it already has some of the things you want for it anyway. All you need to do is add a +25% to melee damage, +25% to armour, double the Agile Rejoinder heal, -50% power reduction to melee skills and take a -30% reduction to ranged skills. I would also go one step further by giving Scourging Blow (useless at the moment) a threat reduction per hit. At a 5 second cooldown it will give hunters a controlable way to shed aggro that we do not have now.

By doing this we accomplish two things, we can leave the huntsman line alone, and we create a viable melee stance for hunters. With the "improved" Endurance above hunters can make amends for grabbing too much aggro. While in S:E we can shed aggro, do some melee damage, and make it a bit easier for the healers to keep us up. We will not endanger champs or OP guards in melee competiton and while we can still range we will pay a price for doing so. It would be benefical to raiders, solo hunters and even would make an Moors build a challenge.

The Devs seem to want a "stance dance" option for hunters. By changing Endurance they don't have to change Huntsman (which many of us love as is). I agree that S:S needs something more than just the added damage bonus and the slow. The slow can be made up by slotting the barbed arrow slow if it is needed, and it is just a bit weaker but lasts twice as long as the S:S slow. Strength stance should get a boost to what is says.. strength... let the swift bow get a bigger punch or give the heartseeker a bigger bite (but make it cost more on power).

Why change lines again when we can make some small changes to the stances? By using percentages the Devs can fix any "OOOPPPPSSS" moments from a obviously over powered change or by increasing something that is a good idea but less than stellar in performance when things go live. It would be much easier for a Dev to say, "Hey the skill is just too powerful right now we are reducing the percentage from 25% to 15% to bring it into line with what we expected, or we loved the idea of better protection in S:E the 25% isn't cutting it so we are making it 35%." This is much easier than going back once again to rework the Huntsman, Bowmaster, and Trapper lines.

Tydalmir

I like this idea Not that it'll go well with the Trapper line (supposedly) being the cc line, but it sounds pretty cool ~

[Tinluen]

I thought of a better add on for S:S let it open the crit cap by 3-5 percent... that would be a bonus worthy of Strength stance. Right now RKs can increase their crit cap, we cannot. S:S would be a nice way to do this.

Tydalmir

[Halvaethor]

Make Endurance your "Melee Stance" it already has some of the things you want for it anyway. All you need to do is add a +25% to melee damage, +25% to armour, double the Agile Rejoinder heal, -50% power reduction to melee skills and take a -30% reduction to ranged skills. I would also go one step further by giving Scourging Blow (useless at the moment) a threat reduction per hit. At a 5 second cooldown it will give hunters a controlable way to shed aggro that we do not have now.

Why change lines again when we can make some small changes to the stances? By using percentages the Devs can fix any "OOOPPPPSSS" moments from a obviously over powered change or by increasing something that is a good idea but less than stellar in performance when things go live. It would be much easier for a Dev to say, "Hey the skill is just too powerful right now we are reducing the percentage from 25% to 15% to bring it into line with what we expected, or we loved the idea of better protection in S:E the 25% isn't cutting it so we are making it 35%." This is much easier than going back once again to rework the Huntsman, Bowmaster, and Trapper lines.

Tydalmir

Very good idea, Tinluen. I like it.

[VincentVanPort]

Honestly I hate even the idea of stance dancing. What I Do not need as a hunter is the need to switch all the time in order to improve my dmg. Especially in the Moors, things go like this, Blindside, Needful Haste, Cool Burn, Deep Concentration at some point. That sums up to about 5-6 seconds where you stand still doing nothong but buffing your dmg to be competitive. Add one or two stance switches and you are standing there clicking like an idiot for half the time. That irks me in PvP most, yeah but in PvE as well. I don't want to stand around wait for stupidly long animations till I can start driving my rotation.

In his entry post ZC states that he wants to alter the trapper line without nerfing it "since you just made it awesome". That is really bothering me. Noone in their right mind would say that traiting yellow is awesome. It is still garbage. Not as much as before but still the point is valid. The damage reduction needs to go as well as the stupid root on PS. More reliable CC is achievable through the traps. Now if changed it would still be a useless line but at least it would go from -50% dmg stance to something along -20% dmg. With the changes to LMs and Burgs so they can mezz everything they are trivialising the cc-encounters already so the "need", if there ever was one for yellow hunters is just non-existing then. Oh and while at it, I should be able to fear EVERYTHING with Bards Arrow.

So then I rather see the line altered completely, maybe a melee one, why not. Let us have three traitlines to dish out dmg, or work on the other traitlines instead of wasting time on an unplayed one, because now it seems like burglars and champs are getting ahead of us DMG wise.

[GeoTerran]

I'm curious to know if ZC plan of less CC in Trapper of Foes will merge some of the CC into baseline. One can hope, I don't like the idea of losing a lot of CC

[EvilTreerat]

I think it might depend on what CC gets removed to make room for other abilities. Or to be more exact, what modifications to our CC get removed since ToF doesn't actually add any CC; it's all modifications to cooldowns, durations, and resist rates to baseline abilities or stuff added by other traits minus the change to Penetrating shot (which is one of the reason ToF is so rarely traited). Personally I wouldn't mind giving up the extra root on Pen-Shot in trade for a debuff that lowers the targets avoidance.

[SerowLOTRO]

Guess the chances of seeing that Hunter/RK blog before the closed beta begins are zero now. Let's hope there's still one in the works!

[Fin.]

Nothing beats 2,5 months holiday.

[Eckenbrand]

Might I suggest a simple way to improve the Trapper line?

Okay, let's review.

2 Yellow: +60 ICPR

3 Yellow: Thorns resist rating, -50% Trap induction, -5% Ranged damage

4 Yellow: Pen Shot roots w/ longer CD, -10% Ranged Damage, Purge Poison affects full Fellowship with 15s CD

and here are my proposed changes

Remove Sturdy Traps and Combat Traps traits, replace them with something better (I personally have no idea on these, maybe make a trait that makes Dazing Blow into Stunning Blow, making it a Stun. Or maybe one that makes you able to move around with Camouflage? I dunno)

2 Yellow: Base +120 ICPR that scales with level, mimics Sturdy Traps effect

3 Yellow: Replace Thorn resist rating with all CC resist rating (Fears, Snares, Roots), keep -50% Trap Induction, mimic Combat Traps effect, keep -5% Ranged Damage, -5% ranged power cost

4 Yellow: Remove Pen. Shot root, give Quickshot or Barbed Arrow 5% (2? 10? 20?) chance to root. -30sec cooldown on all CC skills, Set Trap becomes Improved Set Trap (Works like the hand-crafted Triple Trap) Set Snare becomes Improved Set Snare (mimics Improved Set Trap with Snare effects) keep Fellowship Purge Poison.

I think this would improve the CC of a Hunter immensely, and I figure that having -Ranged Damage also meant -Ranged Power Cost

[marlwyn]

I didnt find a 'new hunter skill suggestions' anywhere so i post my ideas here.

Improved camouflage:
The first attack you do from camouflage does 20% more damage

Improved penetrating shot:
Makes penetrating shot shoot 2 arrows instead of one(would possibly be a legendary trait)

Improved merciful shot:
Would become like Champions merciful strike, needs enemy to have 20% morale left and each point of focus you have would increase the damage

[FyreBrand]

I didnt find a 'new hunter skill suggestions' anywhere so i post my ideas here.

Improved camouflage:
The first attack you do from camouflage does 20% more damage

Improved penetrating shot:
Makes penetrating shot shoot 2 arrows instead of one(would possibly be a legendary trait)

Improved merciful shot:
Would become like Champions merciful strike, needs enemy to have 20% morale left and each point of focus you have would increase the damage

For improved camo I would like to see it work more like the warden's stealth. So while stationary the hunter remains in stealth, but when they move there is a 30 second cooldown timer that will remove the hunter from stealth. Each attack the hunter makes shortens the timer by 10 seconds.

I would like merciful shot to work like this anyway. Change merciful shot such that it has the maximum health requirement as it does now. The shot costs a minimum of 1 focus to use and for every pip of focus above 1 the damage is increased. All focus would be consumed on use.

An improvement to penetrating shot could provide a small armour rend.

Bright campfire still needs to scale properly. An improved version could provide an in combat regen as it used to.

If too much damage is included with improvements then overall dps of the hunter would need to be nerfed. The hunter is setting pretty good damage wise. We can't ask for more damage without throwing balance out of whack. Moria was a good lesson with regards to this.

[Dunskap]

I didnt find a 'new hunter skill suggestions' anywhere so i post my ideas here.

Improved camouflage:
The first attack you do from camouflage does 20% more damage

Improved penetrating shot:
Makes penetrating shot shoot 2 arrows instead of one(would possibly be a legendary trait)

Improved merciful shot:
Would become like Champions merciful strike, needs enemy to have 20% morale left and each point of focus you have would increase the damage

I like the improved camo idea. Especially in the moors.

But I could see the penetrating shot becoming OP. But maybe a legendary trait/ needing 5 traits would balance it.

[Forgotten_Legend]

a new hunter skill? how about update BotR. after press onward update, BotR is quite ignored. and also take this time to change strong draw (putting the current strong draw bonus into BotR), since strong draw is more of a MUST-HAVE than any 3 other traits combined. this would free up a trait for something new. (like maybe pen shot crit resets ISB? we'll lose the desire to use the helegrod set by 75, for sure) and updating BotR could add some melee love without forcing anyone to melee.

BotR renamed:

Bow and Blade of the Righteous or Way of Legolas

~gives power back for every ranged skill use
~reduces focus cost of penetrating shot by 1
~all dual wield melee skills add 1 focus
~all dual wield melee skills upgraded to 100% mainhand / 100% offhand damage (instead of the current bow and blade of 80%/60%

this would make BotR feel like a legendary, methinks. and the melee damage buff would still only allow for maybe 1/2 the melee damage of a berserker champ. (after all, LM gets sword and staff, wardens get way of the warden, RKs get martial training... this new BotR would follow that theme, not to mention the proposed new Controlled Burn in Orion's blog)

throwing all the melee love into ONE legendary follows after the theme presented in other classes' legendaries. and would also allow those who want to melee to actually do a little damage, without being OP. AND it would let all the traitline set bonuses focus on ranged damage, or inductions, or CC cooldowns as they do now, or maybe even better ones? if only we could get a hint at what the devs are planning? (i have bacon... delicious crispy bacon

BotR is the reward for our 45-50 class quest chain. you remember it. collect stuff from all over Angmar, Goblin Town, Carn Dum, and Urugrath. (helchgam's Slime?) and can't be completed without first finishing volume 1 book 6 in the epic chain. Legolas himself rewards us the legendary trait, after almost 5 levels of work.

if there is to be any single must-have trait for any class, then shouldn't it be a legendary that is truly legendary?