Subtle Racism in Lotro

[Ailedra]

Did not say 'allegory'. I said 'inspired'. Tolkien had been living through the first part of the 20th century where war raged across Europe. If he was not influenced by that in any way, he must have been a robot.

"Inspired by", to me, implies a stronger foundation for the story in those experiences. Of course the war in which he served, and the later one he lived through, had an effect.

Maybe we settle on "influenced by"?

[HumphreyMilkweed]

There is only one half-elf character in the game, Elrond. Also, the half-elven were given the choice to live either as men or elves. For all intents and purposes, Elrond is an elf.

Something good did come of this thread! I had no idea Elrond was a half-elf! What is the story behind this?

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

First, I think branching off into the "PC" debate is potentially more offensive to some people than the original post and also more likely to get this thread closed because of its "political" overtones.

Please...how an earth is it going to be avoided in a topic like this?

The whole notion that there are "racist" implications riddled throughout the books/game would only come from a politically correct mind.

This thread, like it or not, is so close to political it is bound to play a large part in the proceedings.

[BillyBeard]

"For a moment he caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slope some way off with green-clad warriors leaping after them, hewing them down as they fled. Arrows were thick in the air. Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

In terms of 'races' in the lore: that term is best used to describe the differences between Northwestern men (Gondorians, Arnorians, Northmen etc), Haradhrim and the men of Khand and Rhun.
It isn't really applicable to use the term 'races' to describe Elves, Men and Dwarves. 'Species' would seem more accurate but is perhaps too scientific-sounding to be authentic with the lore.
Sub-races is most applicable for differentiating between, for example, the men of Numenorean blood and the Northmen, who had broken off from the Edain 'proper' long ago in the First Age.

[Silchas]

Please...how an earth is it going to be avoided in a topic like this?

The whole notion that there are "racist" implications riddled throughout the books/game would only come from a politically correct mind.

This thread, like it or not, is so close to political it is bound to play a large part in the proceedings.

Well, since I assume most of us are intelligent beings, I assume most of us control our discussion and do not let our discussion control us.

[Dotlbeme]

Next thing you know, they will remove the n-word from Huckleberry Finn...oh wait...

[Silchas]

Something good did come of this thread! I had no idea Elrond was a half-elf! What is the story behind this?

There are more lengthy sources I could cite to but try this as a starter:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Lore:Half-elven

[HumphreyMilkweed]

Please...how an earth is it going to be avoided in a topic like this?

The whole notion that there are "racist" implications riddled throughout the books/game would only come from a politically correct mind.

This thread, like it or not, is so close to political it is bound to play a large part in the proceedings.

Indeed. And by "politically correct" I'm assuming you mean it's completely acceptable, almost expected, that a white person be accused of being racist solely based on the conclusion that white people are inherently racist with ill intent towards dark skinned people. The conclusions drawn by the OP are completely absurd, but by virtue of our current cultural climate, they are the anticipated norm. There is NO evidence to draw the conclusions the OP has drawn. It is pure speculation based on what he interprets as a racial bias based on his interpretation of the intentions behind the game designer's word choice.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

There are more lengthy sources I could cite to but try this as a starter:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Lore:Half-elven

Thank you!

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

Well, since I assume most of us are intelligent beings, I assume most of us control our discussion and do not let our discussion control us.

Yep and there is a term to describe that, it's called ignoring the elephant in the room.

[Fortinobrand]

OP, I'm half agreeing with you.

Tolkien was indeed a racist as we'd define it today. It was a part of his place in time and society. Everything evil in his works is black, dark-skinned, tribal, etc., and much of the evil is from the south or the east. From the perspective of the British Empire as Tolkien visualized it that meant Africans and Asians, respectively. Everything good and noble is western, white, Caucasian. Most of the evil whites are in cahoots with those nasty foreigners.

But was Tolkien an active racist? I've seen no evidence of such. He was merely a man raised in a small world, with a limited perspective passed down by his parents and their peer group, and that societal perspective had a line firmly drawn between white and every thing else. Did that come out in his works? Of course it did.

As for Turbine -- We're allowed to make our characters a wide range of skin/hair tones, a lot of games still don't do that. Yeah, not a lot of good darker npc out there. Yeah, references to swarthy (which carries different meaning to different subcultures, as seen in posts above) and half-breed, and others. I think what we see overall is a group of modern designers, diverse in ethnic makeup and tolerances, who tried to render an inherently narrow world view through a broader lens, without totally losing the flavour of the writing.

"Half-breed" seems to have been used as a dehumanizer. So, oddly appropriate when referring to half-orcs, not elfs. It's a sad truth that humans (us, the RL people, not in-game humans) make derogatory names for anything we disagree with.

A similar issue for the dev team would have been the sexuality thing -- Tolkien repeatedly uses the word "queer" to mean strange, odd. Obviously today (at least in America) that word has a different meaning. Do they change it to be modern? Do they protect the lore and feel of the language and use it?

My unasked-for-advice? Roll a black-skinned champ. Level him (or her) up. Go smite some evil.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

"For a moment he caught a glimpse of swarthy men in red running down the slope some way off with green-clad warriors leaping after them, hewing them down as they fled. Arrows were thick in the air. Then suddenly straight over the rim of their sheltering bank, a man fell, crashing through the slender trees, nearly on top of them. He came to rest in the fern a few feet away, face downward, green arrow-feathers sticking from his neck below a golden collar. His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn, his black plaits of hair braided with gold were drenched with blood. His brown hand still clutched the hilt of a broken sword.

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

Thanks for posting this. But I'm wondering why you did? To me it's clearly points out that swarthy, used in this context, is a descriptive term, no more offensive than saying someone is tanned, or brown skinned, or pale skinned. And Sam's reaction is wonderful.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

Tolkien was indeed a racist as we'd define it today.

Even this much is not true.

We'll ignore the sinister origins of the term for starters. I think you'll find most people when asked what they think 'racist' means will say something along the lines of 'showing or expressing hatred for those of another race'.

The left of today (aka PC brigade) on the other hand have broadened the term and made it deliberately vague. It can now mean anything from a business employing a disproportionate amount of people from a certain ethnic group, all the way through to committing mass genocide against a people of a particular ethnicity.
This has been purposely done to make almost the mere mention of the word 'race' a cause of eyebrow-raising, and as for discussion on things like immigration...

To most people there is nothing in Tolkien's work that would actively make them think of racism when reading it.

[Ailedra]

It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind."

And there we go.

Thank you for finding that.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

OP, I'm half agreeing with you.

Tolkien was indeed a racist as we'd define it today. It was a part of his place in time and society. Everything evil in his works is black, dark-skinned, tribal, etc., and much of the evil is from the south or the east. From the perspective of the British Empire as Tolkien visualized it that meant Africans and Asians, respectively. Everything good and noble is western, white, Caucasian.

But was Tolkien an active racist? I've seen no evidence of such. He was merely a man raised in a small world, with a limited perspective passed down by his parents and their peer group, and that societal perspective had a line firmly drawn between white and every thing else. Did that come out in his works? Of course it did.

As for Turbine -- We're allowed to make our characters a wide range of skin/hair tones, a lot of games still don't do that. Yeah, not a lot of good darker npc out there. Yeah, references to swarthy (which carries different meaning to different subcultures, as seen in posts above) and half-breed, and others. I think what we see overall is a group of modern designers, diverse in ethnic makeup and tolerances, who tried to render an inherently narrow world view through a broader lens, without totally losing the flavour of the writing.

"Half-breed" seems to have been used as a dehumanizer. So, oddly appropriate when referring to half-orcs, not elfs. It's a sad truth that humans (us, the RL people, not in-game humans) make derogatory names for anything we disagree with.

A similar issue for the dev team would have been the sexuality thing -- Tolkien repeatedly uses the word "queer" to mean strange, odd. Obviously today (at least in America) that word has a different meaning. Do they change it to be modern? Do they protect the lore and feel of the language and use it?

My unasked-for-advice? Roll a black-skinned champ. Level him (or her) up. Go smite some evil.

Just to be clear on the conclusions you've drawn:

1) Since Tolkien is English, and from a "different time and place," he is therefore inherently racist?

2) Since England is North of Africa, and West of Asia, and in the books Mordor is mostly to the South and East, then Tokein was comparing orcs and the evil men in Middle Earth to Black Africans and Asians?

3) In Tolkein's mind, white = good, and black/brown = evil?

4) Tolkein was white, so therefore he was racist?

5) Orcs have dark skin, so Tolkien is racist?

Orcs also were described as having fangs, so was Tolkien racist against vampires as well? Not all white people from a "different time and age" were inherently racist. Have you ever read about something called the American Civil war? How about the underground railroad?

Pretty much everything you said is unfounded speculation based on racial biases of your own.

[HumphreyMilkweed]

Even this much is not true.

We'll ignore the sinister origins of the term for starters. I think you'll find most people when asked what they think 'racist' means will say something along the lines of 'showing or expressing hatred for those of another race'.

The left of today (aka PC brigade) on the other hand have broadened the term and made it deliberately vague. It can now mean anything from a business employing a disproportionate amount of people from a certain ethnic group, all the way through to committing mass genocide against a people of a particular ethnicity.
This has been purposely done to make almost the mere mention of the word 'race' a cause of eyebrow-raising, and as for discussion on things like immigration...

To most people there is nothing in Tolkien's work that would actively make them think of racism when reading it.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Beleg-Of-Doriath again."

[Ailedra]

Tolkien was indeed a racist as we'd define it today. It was a part of his place in time and society. Everything evil in his works is black, dark-skinned, tribal, etc.,

As is every literary and legendary treatment of evil, from every civilized society, Eastern or Western, "civilized" or "backward", modern or archaic.

The night, darkness, and the color black have all been associated with menace, evil, and death in early Jewish writing (a middle-eastern tribal people), early Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, and other Mesopotamian cultures, Egyptian literature and myth, Sub-Saharan African tribal traditions, Chinese and Japanese cultural traditions, all European cultures, American Indian traditions, transplanted Carribean Negro cultures, and on, and on, and on....

It's a visceral, instinctual shared human condition. So is xenophobia. Your statement is historically and culturally ignorant.

[kalimarr]

Come on. More posts. This thread is becoming actually quite funny.

[Evebel]

I’m personally offended by descriptions of angelic women with white-blond hair that is so rampant in our society today. I might be a Caucasian woman, but I have dark brown hair. You people are all hateful.

/sarcasm

[HumphreyMilkweed]

I’m personally offended by descriptions of angelic women with white-blond hair that is so rampant in our society today. I might be a Caucasian woman, but I have dark brown hair. You people are all hateful.

/sarcasm

God, I love brunettes. You know what else I miss? Curly hair. Seems like every girl on Earth now has perfectly straight, dyed hair in some shade of blonde. Bleh, I like tight curls, and dark beautiful hair.

[hallasan]

I know its a forum thread but hopefully some of the commentators will take a moment to discern the difference between cultural bias, racism and Tolkien's own history and views to inform their opinion.

[Fortinobrand]

This thread makes my head hurt.

First, the whole "Tolkien was a product of his times, and that was a LONG time ago" line is complete garbage. The novels this game covers were published from 1952-1954 in the UK....although he'd been writing them before that, the published material is less than 60 years old. From a literary/social perspective, that's not that long.

Also, Tolkien was indeed the product of his culture...and he was British. Anti-black racism was hardly a hallmark of the 20th-century British social landscape....particularly among university professors.

I'm not sure whether you're a troll or if you're being serious.

First, the books were published in the 50's, yes. Tolkien, however, was an elderly man by that time. His formative years were much closer to the turn of the century. Since it's evident you have absolutely no grasp of British history, let's look at some of the things going on in the world while Tolkien attended his whites-only, boys-only school. Subjugation and control through military and economic power. Brutal when necessary. Concentration camps for those societies who continued to resist (research Second Boer War and others). Organized starvation or deprivation or drinking water was a favourite tool too, cheaper than military force. Later, as he was writing, we had the Bengal Famine, others. Read up on an objective history of the era of late 1800's - mid 1900's of India, China, Hong Kong, South Africa, Egypt, Congo, Nigeria, Uganda...bunch of other African nations. Who built the sugar plantations in the "new world" that depended on slave labour, knowing there was no other source of labour available?

You give "professors" too much credit. There have been numerous publications of letters and writings from professors, Tolkien's peers, arguing that the atrocities at the start of WWII were not necessarily a bad thing, as they were braking down some of the power built up by minorities. Of course their attitudes changed when the bombs started falling.

60 years isn't long from a social perspective? Unless you're a child, you really need to stop and connect with the world. Foundational sociological changes can happen so much faster than that.

It's one thing to point at everything and see racism that isn't there. It's yet another to look back and selectively erase it from where it most certainly was. It existed. It exists. I think it exists less today than it did yesterday, and I hope it will exist even less tomorrow. But pretending it wasn't there isn't the way.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

I’m personally offended by descriptions of angelic women with white-blond hair that is so rampant in our society today. I might be a Caucasian woman, but I have dark brown hair. You people are all hateful.

In which case Tolkien's work is 'positive discrimination' for you as Luthien, the fairest of the Children of Iluvatar, had hair that was "dark as the shadows of twilight".

[MrWarg]

... and much of the evil is from the south or the east. From the perspective of the British Empire as Tolkien visualized it that meant Africans and Asians, respectively.

The idea of 'evil coming from the east' is a very old perception amongst various European cultures existing long before the British Empire. Indeed the use of the British Empire as an example of this seems rather odd for two reasons. The first being that Britain adopted a policy of 'splendid isolation', in which Britain was so powerful that it could essentially ignore the rest of the world. The second being that the British Empire covered a quarter of the entire planet; enemies of the Empire came from a multitude of places and cultures, from Russians, to French, to native African peoples, to Germans, to Japanese and even Americans. Indeed the British Empire was largely pragmatic in its dealings with native peoples in so far as the British government would rather make alliances with them and 'divide and rule' rather than having them as an enemy.

To more directly address your point though, successive waves of invasion or conflict directed towards or involving Europe came from the east and were often seen as being intent on destroying the civilisations that had been built in Europe or at the very least as being a threat to the way of life in Western Europe. Starting with the ancient Greeks and their conflicts with the Persian Empire in antiquity to the threat against the Roman Empire from the Parthians to the Huns in the 5th century and their attacks on the Roman Empire to the Carolingian war against the Saxons in 9th century Germany (which was to the east of Francia) to the Mongol invasions of the middle ages, which reached as far west as Austria. Later the Ottoman Empire also threatened European nations from the east. In modern times there was an East-West divide where the perceived enemy also came from the east of Europe, this time the Soviet Bloc.

In short the idea of 'evil' or 'enemies' coming from a specific place in the European mindset really has little to do with race as much as it has to do with geography. Since the easiest route for any invader attacking Europe is from the east of the continent this is were the focus has been drawn in terms of instilling an idea in the popular mindset that the east is where their enemies come from.