Dev Diary Feedback: Rise of Isengard: Captain Developer Diary

[Erethal]

These are all awesome changes!

I do have one suggestion though! Since Leader of Men is now meant only to be a tanking line, I think the -10s marks cooldown reductions of the 2-set bonus should be distributed to each line. Meaning...

Leader of Men 2-set trait bonus: -10s Noble Mark cooldown
Hands of Healing 2-set trait bonus: -10s Revealing Mark cooldown
Lead the Charge 2-set trait bonus: -10s Telling Mark cooldown

I think that would make more sense if LoM is no longer intended to be a buff/debuff trait line. The CD reduction would be a bonus of the trait line that its respective Mark skill is focused on. Perhaps in the future the trait for the -5s To Arms could be adjusted, such as being a part of the legacy or elsewhere, since that is also a buff-focused trait in what is now a tanking trait line.

[LetsDance]

I'm really looking forward to these changes, how I play and equip my cappy now will vary a lot from how I'll play it at lvl75.

Couple of concerns so far:
With our outgoing healing linked to might we'll still be very much reliant on will & fate for power pool and regen. Vast majority of relics and jewels with might on dont incorporate will or fate. I hope Turbine have allowed for this with end game gear.
“Cry of Vengeance” can no longer be reset with time of need (composure trait). I see some cooldowns have been reduced but hope the frequency of our rezzes havent been reduced overall.
We're going to need those extra LI slots, LIs for healing, tanking, plus the usual buffing LIs!

[DelgonTheWise]

These are all awesome changes!

I do have one suggestion though! Since Leader of Men is now meant only to be a tanking line, I think the -10s marks cooldown reductions of the 2-set bonus should be distributed to each line. Meaning...

Leader of Men 2-set trait bonus: -10s Noble Mark cooldown
Hands of Healing 2-set trait bonus: -10s Revealing Mark cooldown
Lead the Charge 2-set trait bonus: -10s Telling Mark cooldown

I think that would make more sense if LoM is no longer intended to be a buff/debuff trait line. The CD reduction would be a bonus of the trait line that its respective Mark skill is focused on. Perhaps in the future the trait for the -5s To Arms could be adjusted, such as being a part of the legacy or elsewhere, since that is also a buff-focused trait in what is now a tanking trait line.

I think that is a very interesting and sensible idea, and I'd be all for it... Only issue is all marks share a cooldown now, so it may have practical problems.

[Armisayl191]

I doubt that anyone could block arrows neither with a 30-40 pound war hammer or halberd, or simply any polearm weapon nor with a greatsword. This only happens in ninja movies but not in middle earth :> and not on a regular basis.

You find THAT idea ridiculous, but not the idea of a Loremaster throwing a burning pinecone at battle-hardened trolls, orcs, etc to kill them?

You know this is a video game right? And that middle-earth isn't real?

[Braul]

Looks great all around. And for you trollies crying about the block.. where did you get the idea that blocking can only be done with a shield? I'm pretty sure the people who MAKE the game have control of this, not your pre-concieved notions.

[opurt]

Hey i like most of the updates buuuut....

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous. Don't wanna be rude but this sounds really stupid to me. There is a reason why you can't parry ranged physical attacks, no need to explain k? There's also a reason why avoiding attacks with your weapon is called parry. To block something, you want to use a shield instead. So your giving captains a third avoidance although it makes completly no sense. Why not boost parry instead?

Don't like this at all.

But good thing is, that i'll lmao everytime my captain is blocking some arrows with his greatsword, because i'll think of someone who decided that this makes perfect sense.

Hey, my warg, not to mention every landscape mob out there, can block, with or without a shield. I'll admit it's abit weird, but hey, it's fantasy based video game. Live the fantasy, block with your face!

[Almagnus1]

Rask, a few questions for you:
1) Is Shield of the Dunedain going to be a fast (as indicated by your post in the captain forums) or a normal skill (as indicated by the dev diary)?

2) How will Strength of Will's legacy affect the various Strength of Will's?

3) There are three captains in a fellow, each one using a different brother on a different person. All have the fellow brother trait slotted. Will the affects from all of the brothers stack, or will only the most recently used Inspire, Strength of Will, and To Arms count?

4) Since Shadow's Lament and Rally Cry have cooldown reduction legacies, any plans to add a cooldown reduction legacy for Routing Cry?

5) Is Time of Need's morale reduction legacy going to be adjusted?

6) Since there are general healing legacies, any possibility of adding general damage related legacies?

Thanks again!

[RicardoFurriel]

I hope they think planned the new jewellery/armour sets with this might-instead-of-will-for-tactical-healing in mind.

As for now I see the majority of captains who focus on capping might run with 3k-3.5k power pools. Remember, no stat tomes (will nor might) as the builds shouldn't be influenced for something that's not available in-game.

That's way too low in a raid setting. Meaning that for the present scenario, changing from will to might as a key stat would be fail since captains wouldn't be able to keep up for long.

Just saying.

PS: I don't even play my captain that much no more. Heck, I don't play that much no more. But let's hear what others say.

Cheers

[Thaladar_LOTRO]

Overall, I have to say that I'm quite pleased with the Captain changes. I agree that I'd like to see Song Brother and Sword Brother earlier, but can live with it. I'm looking forward to playing my Captain to check out the changes once the expansion goes live!

[Nardian]

Who says you can't block with a two hander?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw7Plkbjbcg

[Elsydeon]

These are all awesome changes!

I do have one suggestion though! Since Leader of Men is now meant only to be a tanking line, I think the -10s marks cooldown reductions of the 2-set bonus should be distributed to each line. Meaning...

Leader of Men 2-set trait bonus: -10s Noble Mark cooldown
Hands of Healing 2-set trait bonus: -10s Revealing Mark cooldown
Lead the Charge 2-set trait bonus: -10s Telling Mark cooldown

I think that would make more sense if LoM is no longer intended to be a buff/debuff trait line. The CD reduction would be a bonus of the trait line that its respective Mark skill is focused on. Perhaps in the future the trait for the -5s To Arms could be adjusted, such as being a part of the legacy or elsewhere, since that is also a buff-focused trait in what is now a tanking trait line.

I agree that this would be a good idea, especially since the three marks each match a respective trait-line in functionality? Why should a LoM Captain be better at using Telling Mark than a LtC Captain? Shouldn't the LtC Captain (or at least a Captain with 2 LtC) be better at using Telling Mark than a Captain with nothing in LtC?

I think that is a very interesting and sensible idea, and I'd be all for it... Only issue is all marks share a cooldown now, so it may have practical problems.

Na right now if you have a mark on a mob and don't have 2 LoM traits and switch marks, the 2 marks that aren't active go on the 10 second cooldown, but not the active mark so they can definitely adjust the cooldowns on the marks independently if they want to as it doesn't seem like it would be that complex to code.

Rask, a few questions for you:
1) Is Shield of the Dunedain going to be a fast (as indicated by your post in the captain forums) or a normal skill (as indicated by the dev diary)?

2) How will Strength of Will's legacy affect the various Strength of Will's?

3) There are three captains in a fellow, each one using a different brother on a different person. All have the fellow brother trait slotted. Will the affects from all of the brothers stack, or will only the most recently used Inspire, Strength of Will, and To Arms count?

4) Since Shadow's Lament and Rally Cry have cooldown reduction legacies, any plans to add a cooldown reduction legacy for Routing Cry?

5) Is Time of Need's morale reduction legacy going to be adjusted?

6) Since there are general healing legacies, any possibility of adding general damage related legacies?

Thanks again!

I would love to see a Dev answer these questions as they have been asked for a while.
I would also add:
7) Are they still going to change the cool downs on x-brother skills since it is likely they are still going to have x-brother skill effects end if we don't have an active x-brother.


On a separate note, I am happy that we now have Might as the source of our outgoing healing and tactical offense. Thus our heavy armors will mesh with those used by guardians and champions more. This will greatly simplify heavy armor itemization as all heavy armor classes will value Might as a key stat. Hilariously, this also means that a Banner of War will improve a Captain's Outgoing Healing. Yes I find that funny, in a good way, as it now gives Captains more of a reason to use the War Banner.

And for those worried about power pools... go for ICPR and straight +power gear as that is more efficient than +will gear anyways for increasing the size of our power pools. This is the same type of gear that non-casters may consider to help their power pools since they can have power issues as well. Also we have to consider what sort of itemization we'll be getting, but now we can definitely focus on fewer stats like other classes while still being effective in all our roles, so no need to gear swap due to re-traiting, which is great. Hopefully the itemization will be available to avoid the power issues we had back in SoA.

And for the 'blocking without a shield is strange' remember parrying with a weapon is redirecting the attack away from you, blocking an attack with a weapon is using the weapon to stop the attack. When you see two sword-fighters lock blades with each other, that isn't parrying, that is blocking. Yes blocking an arrow sounds strange, but hey it is possible to chop an arrow out of the air with a sword and that stops the attack (sort of) so that could be considered blocking. Can do the same sort of motions with an axe, or a club or a hammer, or a halberd. And for those who want to do sword&board you would give up some offense, but gain more defense over a captain that is using a 2-hander to block as I doubt we'll be getting the +armor and crit defenses that shields (even light shields) have. Thus Sword&board should not be rendered obsolete by this change as it would still be a viable option for those who wish to use it.

[DarthKeryx]

Overall wow. Amazing and generous on part of Raskolnikov and devs.

1) Block without a shield? That's rather generous. But still sweet. Other Captains can block with their face. Me? With my nose.

2) Might > Will? Yeah that's gonna mean some adjustment but still sweet. And surely gear/rewards will move in that direction. I like this change because we don't have to divide/choose between "damage or heals"? Stack Might and we get both. Nice.

3) Blade Brother rather late now. But with all the gifts there needs to be a trade-off somewhere. Maybe.

4) With changed cooldowns suddenly certain seldom-used skills become genuinely useful. This also means more difficult choices for which legendary skills to slot.

5) The basic thinking "Cappies will always buff... but now they can choose to tank or heal or DPS" was inspired.

I think our general usefulness is going to go up a couple notches.

[Shukar]

Overall, I like the changes. i hope it will be nice to concentrate on Might rather than having to raise all the basic stats!

I have two worries:

- Shield-brother is now a skill optimized for dropping onto the tank. We get it pretty early... but we don't get Song-brother and Blade-brother until very late! While leveling nowadays it is great to Shield-brother one's herald... but now until level 70 the Shield-brother buffs do little for the herald (who may not be taking damage).

- Capstone traits for the 3 lines now include the ability for the Captain to share (at full strength) the -brother skill that matches the line. However, if the Captain is acting as, say, tank... then who else in the party would WANT the Shield-brother skill? Song-brother might benefit non-healers and most classes would like the DPS buffs of Blade-brother... but it seems to me that in group content, if the Captain is being main healer or tank or concentrating on DPS, the others in the group won't want the capstone-matching -brother buff. So the captain has to decide: am I buffing them, or buffing them with the wrong buff just so *I* get the right one?

I guess my main worry is that Shield-brother is being changed to something less generally useful in order to make room for the 2 new -brother skills... but you don't get them until you're 70 and 74. That's a long slog.

[Reximus]

"The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will)." - please tell me this is JUST for LoM ... ? If it's a class change ... argh. I've spent considerable effort capping out my Fate\Will because I can O/T well enough with ~450 Might, but I need the Fate\Will because I'm spamming heals\buffs as they come up.

#donotlike

Honestly, 10 levels plus the stat changes including more of a stat on better gear to make upgrades more appealing pretty much means anything you are wearing now is not going to be worth anything at 75.

[Gilean-EU]

Very nice upcoming changes indeed, from my lvl 65 soloing-only captain point of view. Things I especially like are:

* "The trait “Strength from Within” no longer prevents the summoning of Heralds and Archers." So now I can finally slot this trait to get some additional healing for myself, as before it was useless because I couldn't summon heralds...

* Master of War legendary changes are great, as with right legacies I should be able to spam Shadows Lament quite often, and getting battle-readied state after successful hit doesn't hurt either. Also Blade-Brother will be nice skill to use with this legendary, instead of shield-brother.

EDIT: Oh, and I most certainly like that Might is now affecting tactical offence and outgoing healing instead of will, as at the moment my Might seems to be 461 while Will is only 189

[Herellomar]

I'm quite happy with the proposed changes, and it only increases my newfound enthusiasm for the Captain class.

Capstone traits for the 3 lines now include the ability for the Captain to share (at full strength) the -brother skill that matches the line. However, if the Captain is acting as, say, tank... then who else in the party would WANT the Shield-brother skill?

If you're tanking for a group, wouldn't you want the fellowship's healer or other squishy to have the benefits of a skill that will make them more durable? Ideally you will be handling aggro, but a little backup plan doesn't hurt.

Who had the idea of blocking with a 2h weapon, lol seriously this is ridiculous.

In real life, a weapon can be used to parry (redirect the energy of an attack) or block (absorb the energy of an attack). The first maneuver relies more on dexterity and the second depends more on strength, both of the weapon and the wielder. A two-handed weapon, which normally is heavier and longer than a one-handed weapon, would be an appropriate weapon to block with so long as the wielder has sufficient might to handle doing so.

[Tarathelion]

The Captain now receives all of their Tactical Offence Rating and Outgoing Healing Rating from Might (instead of Will)

Well, thats really a horrible change. Clearly, someone who proposed that does not fully grasp cpts skill set and role in a group.

Cpt was one of few classes or only one who needed all stats at reasoanable levels:

Vitality - cos of maximum morale and the fact that quite a lot of skill cost morale aswell
Agility - to increase the chance to crit which opens up most powerfull cpts skills
Might - for melee offence
Will - high pool of power aswell as outgoing healing rating
Fate - icpr and icmr

The reason for last 2 and its also a reason why putting outgoing healing ratinto into might is a bad idea is that cpt have no means to regain his own power at all hence the necessity to keep high maximum power and icpr.

Obviously, cpt could not max all stats so usually( in group/raid setup) most cpts rightly have choset to max will/fate and vitality. Might was not as important in group cos cpt's role is not dps so extra 10% dps doesn't not make much difference.

With RoI expansion Turbine have decided to remove all primary stats caps aswell as increasing secondary stats caps.

Looking at initial cpt proposed changes and stats dev diary, cpt was supposed to stay preety much the same (only class). That created a problem. Cpts dps compared to other classes (other class have the means to prioritise their stats.) would be even smaller. The gap would increase by 20 % or so.

Kudos to Roskolnikov for reacting to feedback and attempting to solve this. Unfortunately the solution is not perfect, in fact its even worse than it was.

As i stated above cpt's lack skills and ability to regain power so even thou tact offence rating (outgoing healing) has been transformed into might, cpt will still have to keep very high will and fate. Otherwise cpt will run out of power very quickly. It was easier to give up on might (dps -not very important) than it will be on power.

There is still time to change it before expansion and i do hope that developers would reconsider this changes.

Here is my proposal.

Instead of getting all secondary stats into might, lets put all of them into will (including melee offence). That way cpt could focus on 3 stats mostly - Will/Fate then Vitality. Still you probably would need agility at decent number but this solution would resolve imminent power problems for cpts. I do not believe it would overpower cpt in any way cos all other classes can focus on 2/3 stats. So way not allowing cpts doing the same.

[Herellomar]

Obviously, cpt could not max all stats so usually( in group/raid setup) most cpts rightly have choset to max will/fate and vitality.

"Rightly" have chosen this? So does that mean my captain's build is "wrong" then? (I focus on might, will and vitality.) Speaking less rhetorically, I doubt you have anything other than anecdotal knowledge to support your assertion that "most" captains focus on will, fate and vitality.

More to the issue at hand, the changes in equipment itemization should allow for more tailored attribute builds. Hopefully the developers will offer items that will be suitable for a captain's usual balancing act. Strong use by captains of crafted food and scholar items would also help, not to mention the assistance of other classes such as the lore-master.

[Fin.]

@Tarathelion

I think might giving tactical offence and outgoing healing is genius decision.

With the RoI, every class will have one primary and maybe one secondary stat to aim for. If captains would keep the necessity to focus on all 5 stats it would put a huge burden on itemization for captains. You would need 3 completely different sets (dps, tank, heal), imagine there are 2 set alternatives for each class, there should be 6! for captain? Plus designing non-set heavy armour is much much easier when all heavy armour classes consider might as main stat.

Anyway, lets break down how it can be done without any complex changes:
Might - main stat for obvious reasons
Vitality - secondary stat
Agility - no need for agility, as was stated by devs many items will have critical rating(now increasing rating for all types of criticals)
Will/Fate - I think low power pool and low icpr may be an issue, in my opinion best solution is to decrease captains skills power cost by 20-40%?

So captains as every other class will keep 1 main and 1 secondary stat.

[Bradegor]

@Tarathelion

I think might giving tactical offence and outgoing healing is genius decision.

With the RoI, every class will have one primary and maybe one secondary stat to aim for. If captains would keep the necessity to focus on all 5 stats it would put a huge burden on itemization for captains. You would need 3 completely different sets (dps, tank, heal), imagine there are 2 set alternatives for each class, there should be 6! for captain? Plus designing non-set heavy armour is much much easier when all heavy armour classes consider might as main stat.

Anyway, lets break down how it can be done without any complex changes:
Might - main stat for obvious reasons
Vitality - secondary stat
Agility - no need for agility, as was stated by devs many items will have critical rating(now increasing rating for all types of criticals)
Will/Fate - I think low power pool and low icpr may be an issue, in my opinion best solution is to decrease captains skills power cost by 20-40%?

So captains as every other class will keep 1 main and 1 secondary stat.

Humm that´s not exactly true. Every melee class has two secondary stat, unless before RoI. After RoI, i believe Agility will serve still Champions and Guardians, and same about Captains: agility will improve evade and that will be needed for a tanking captain. Also, Will and fate will be needed for healing captain. Caster classes do have three "main" stats: Will, Fate and Vitality (let´s face it, Vitality is a secondary stat for EVERY class). Also, you must expect a class that fulfill several roles to need several stats. I´m sure the devs will find a balance for this.

[DelgonTheWise]

Also, Will and fate will be needed for healing captain. Caster classes do have three "main" stats: Will, Fate and Vitality (let´s face it, Vitality is a secondary stat for EVERY class). Also, you must expect a class that fulfill several roles to need several stats. I´m sure the devs will find a balance for this.

Why will Will be particularly useful for a healing Captain? It provides only power of real use. Caster's (and Captain) historically used will because it provided tac offense/outgoing healing. That apparently no longer applies to Captain. IMHO Will becomes our least needed stat regardless of the role we pick. But we may have to prioritize raw power and even more ICPR than now...

[Tarathelion]

Herellomar,

My knowledge may be anecdotal. Its based on opinions of cpts i know or that i have inspected (the ones the are well geared). It is my opinion that might is the least desirable stat from all of them atm. I've seen some cpt that are build on might but they are moslty build for ettenmoors. To answer your question, in my opinion might is a luxury stat, its not necessary ( i view these changes from raiding point of view). That is my opinion thou, you are entitled to disagree.

Having said that that is not my point.

As for itemization, yea if the changes stay the way , you would need to balance all stats. The problem is, there is no cap on stats anymore, so other classes can focus on their 2-3 stats without keeping other ones at decent levels. My point is, if they want for any class to focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality, let allow cpt do the same. Putting everything to into might its an attempt of doing that. In my opinion its failed attempt becouse of power problems.

Fin

I think in general we have the same opinion: let cpt focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality. My point is , make it will and not might.

The solution you are proposing could work aswell, having said that i highly doubt that they will lower the power requirements on skills atm, they could make some new skill that will allow cpt to regain some of his power or change existing one. (there is an option in HoH line to get benefits from song brother on yourself aswell, power over time from inspire).

[DarthKeryx]

- Shield-brother is now a skill optimized for dropping onto the tank. We get it pretty early... but we don't get Song-brother and Blade-brother until very late! While leveling nowadays it is great to Shield-brother one's herald... but now until level 70 the Shield-brother buffs do little for the herald (who may not be taking damage).

- Capstone traits for the 3 lines now include the ability for the Captain to share (at full strength) the -brother skill that matches the line. However, if the Captain is acting as, say, tank... then who else in the party would WANT the Shield-brother skill?

Good points. I stand by my opinion that overall the changes are great. But I don't think I fully recognized how much is lost by making Shield-brother so late in levels.

Your point about sharing the -brother skill is a good one. But it occurred to me that I don't often "shield buddy swap". Some Captains can pull that off but when raiding I generally - not always - pick one person and leave it at that. If the tank is taking vast amounts of damage and it's not a dps race I shield-buddy the tank. (Pretty much all of Barad Guldur, Ost Dunhoth Fear, Ivar, and so on.) If the tank is basically okay but dps is a big issue I shield-buddy whoever dishes out the most dps. (Ost Dunhoth Disease, Wound, Gortheron, and so on.) And sometimes I do switch shield-buddies for different stages of a fight. (Hunters for Lieutenant stage one, then the tank after dismount. Hunters for Disease on the trees, then the tank when the guardians are up.) So with the changes even if the Captain is tanking we might choose the Shield-brother skill most important for that particular situation.

[DelgonTheWise]

As for itemization, yea if the changes stay the way , you would need to balance all stats. The problem is, there is no cap on stats anymore, so other classes can focus on their 2-3 stats without keeping other ones at decent levels. My point is, if they want for any class to focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality, let allow cpt do the same. Putting everything to into might its an attempt of doing that. In my opinion its failed attempt becouse of power problems.

Fin

I think in general we have the same opinion: let cpt focus on 1-2 stats plus vitality. My point is , make it will and not might.

I think the ship has sailed here. Yes, they could go back and switch. But fact is, for a melee class Might makes more sense. The other heavies want Might, which makes stats desired on heavy armor common to all and makes itemization quite a bit simpler. They otherwise need non-set Heavy armor pieces for Captains with distinct stats emphasis from heavy armor pieces for Guards/Champs. The side benefits of might (mitigations) are what tanking capts would want, a line they are pushing in this release.

Will becomes largely a trash stat to Capts, wanted only for power which we may get in some other way. Might followed by Vit will be our biggest numbers I guess, and Agility/Fate wanted to a moderate degree for crits/ICPR (more emphasized if crit focused build perhaps). And the +75 IDOME will help with that

[Tarathelion]

Delgon,

It is a fair point, on heavy armour itemization, it would make it harder to create heavy gear. In my opinion cpt suffer cos of it, and Turbine convenience should not be enough to justify that. The chances of changing anything now are slim, even thou anything in diary is subject to change.

As for might making sense, i'm not so sure. Tbh the direction Turbine've taken regarding primary and secondary stats doesn't makes much sense. Outgoing healing and tactical offence from might does not really make much sense either.

As for tanking cpt's, well the only way i can see them tanking, if there is no guard/warden or champ in group. Cpt is losing to much in that line. 3-mans maybe. Tbh, would prefer yellow line to be focused on support role than tanking, but well, to much to ask