Kelsen: What did High Ranks do to you?

[OverlordGate]

Dear Kelsen,

maybe I´m wrong when I condemn you openly for the following points, but you´re the reference person and the person in authority for PvMP in LotrO! I´m at my wit´s end that I adress this straightforwardly question to you:

What did the High Rank Creeps do to you that you mishandle them in such an extant way?

I´m able to relate to the fact, that the only thing the Turbine developers accomplish is the change to F2P for PvMP and that you have to go towards doing some F2P changes, but at the expense of all the high rank creeps? The players, who are the real PvMP community? The players, who spend partially four years for their high rank monsters? The players, who suffered the whole #### of bad changes and maltreatment in this time for PvMP?

When we read for the first time, that PvMP will have it´s own Developer; when we read through your thoughts of change for the monster classes the first time there was a ray of hope on the dark sky of the moors. But now, with the freep changes and mostly with your changes to generally monsterplay this ray of hope is terminated.

So what changes I´m talking about? I´m talking about the change that every monster have every skill with rank 10 instead of rank 13, so with 400.000 points instead of 1.600.000 points, four times faster! But the opera ain't over until the fat lady sings: You give rank 0 monsters the opportunity to have it all for cash in 2 minutes?

Why don´t you delete the whole rank system? What is a rank good for? For what have the high ranks played (no, toiled) four years? For content in the form of 80$? I can tell you for what these people played this period of time: For a few % more finesse, morale, power and damage. For a few skins you can count on one hand and for skill improvements which are on the stand of "Shadows of Angmar" (the stalker not even have a rang 15 skill improveent and classes like the defiler can invoke their flies without spawning time *wuhuu*) And these % and improvements are a fat lot and uninspiring!

When you enconter a high rank, you should have to think twice if you´re attacking or just run away. A high rank should make the different in a group fight. A player should sense and see that there is a high rank which gives his group a lot more power.

I don´t want you to take this post down the wrong pipe but I hope and I think that you can understand what I and many players with me are frustrated about and if you really read this post I don´t want to "leave" without giving at least a few proposals...

-> Adjust (make them very much stronger) the improved skills of rank 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 or create new ones and let them be available only for players who reached this rank!
-> What about a 1-2 dread aura from rank 11 up? So when there is a rank 14 monster on the battlefield, all players in range get 4-8 dread (this dread debilitate the freeps and boost the creeps around)!
-> The passive rising % for morale, power and damage (no for finesse) have to be still higher! Personally I think in dimensions of 40-70% from a rank 15 in front of a rank 0 creep. But also among themselves they have to be a good upgrade. So not just increase the passive %´s from rank 14 to rank 15 for about 3%. It have to be a great push!


I only can respeak it: I hope you understand what I want to tell you with this direct adressed post to you and I´m very confident that you will read this post like Sapience said about the behaviour of Developers even if you won´t answer.

So thank you for your patience

in the name of all tormented high rank monsters

High Chieftain Gate

[Elyske]

I agree that high ranks need some of the improvements you spoke of.

A dread aura mechanic, and new skills that can't be bought would be great for the high ranked. It's really what is needed.

[OverlordGate]

Definitely!

When you are rank 10 you have all you can wish for... with 400.000 points

Then again 3.300.000 points? for what lol?

If more players signed to the topic Turbine have to react! I´m confident on that

[Afterthought]

If more players signed to the topic Turbine have to react! I´m confident on that

And you say you've been playing for how long? Turbine doesn't *have* to do anything, just look at the history of the moors.

I actually agree with the active skills being condensed into the earlier ranks, though i would have preferred if they were properly distributed rather than just dropped to rank 10. Creeps should be able to obtain all their base skills (active skills), which allow them to have the functionality of their class, available to them over a reasonable period of time. Rank 10 achieves this. However i would have combined this with making sure the higher ranks have improved versions of some of the skills which not only give the high ranks something to work for but also make them more powerful than their lower ranked counterparts. Eye rake and rabid bite are prime examples of how this works currently. Unfortunately we haven't really received the traits part. Maybe in the next update they might bring out some stuff to buff the higher ranks to compensate for what they took.

As for the store, i'm completely and utterly against it. That option needs to be removed completely.

[OverlordGate]

And you say you've been playing for how long? Turbine doesn't *have* to do anything, just look at the history of the moors.

Wouldn´t say so...

How long does it take till Spaience gives us information about upcoming PvE Content when the bloody horde of PvE-Players heared about missing instances with Rise of isengart? The bulk make the difference! I´m pretty sure they *have* to...

Btw.: Rabid Bite and and Eye rake did it. But this is only 2/5 and with Isengart (in front of freep changes) both won´t do! But back to the topic: Did I get it right that you would agree to the point that high rank creeps should be more powerful than lowranks (with better improved skills)?

[DEATHKNYGHT]

I like this quote from another thread:

Remember that new stat, finesse? Well rank 0 starts with 0 finesse, rank 6 has 2.5k finesse.

In equivalent terms, creeps with cash can bring out a fresh level 75 toon with all their skills, but they'll only being wearing quest armor. As they rank up, rank 6 seems to be where finesse starts coming close to freep raid armor. Meaning, even though they have all their skills, it still doesn't mean that they'll be able to hit you with many of them.

Ranked creeps still have a number of advantages in finesse, DPS, morale (15,000 - 16,500 morale at rank 15), etc. These are powerful advantages and should make freeps think twice about attacking or just running away. A high rank will make the difference in a group fight. Players will sense and see that there is a high rank which gives his group a lot more power.

Again, from another thread:

I was able to hit 16.8k morale on a R15 defiler, and have enough Finesse to reduce resists and total BPE by 23% each. (That is R15 fully traited for Morale, though - a R7 or R8 would probably have about 15k morale and only reduce resists and total BPE by about 12% each).

This suggests an approximately 33% combined resist/B/P/E difference maximum (11% for each B/P/E check) between ranks 8 and 15. That is significant.

Mostly, though, anyone who comes to the 'moors for a good length of time knows who is a threat. Player skill and experience often counts more than stats, as it should.

[OverlordGate]

Ranked creeps still have a number of advantages in finesse, DPS, morale (15,000 - 16,500 morale at rank 15), etc. These are powerful advantages and should make freeps think twice about attacking or just running away. A high rank will make the difference in a group fight. Players will sense and see that there is a high rank which gives his group a lot more power.

You really think 15% more morale etc. are powerful advantages and make the different in a world of upcoming freep-godness? And the real problem is the different between rank 10 and 15! You have to play 8,5 x rank 10 again to have only 5% more damage and morale at rank 15 in front of a rank 10 monster? You´re joking or just stupid!

[Afterthought]

Wouldn´t say so...

How long does it take till Spaience gives us information about upcoming PvE Content when the bloody horde of PvE-Players heared about missing instances with Rise of isengart? The bulk make the difference! I´m pretty sure they *have* to...

Btw.: Rabid Bite and and Eye rake did it. But this is only 2/5 and with Isengart (in front of freep changes) both won´t do! But back to the topic: Did I get it right that you would agree to the point that high rank creeps should be more powerful than lowranks (with better improved skills)?

That is pve not PvP. Pve always gets attention. When freeps complain stuff gets done, look at past creep nerfs. When creeps complain usually nothing gets done or if it does it takes ages. I'm pretty sure the beta ppl would have been just as upset and yet it is still here so that indicates that it is probably in the game for at least the foreseeable future.

Rabid bite and Eye rake still do it. You get the skills at rank 5 and 6 and you get the traits at ranks 14 and 11 respectively. This still works perfectly, the stupid store is just going to allow people to bypass it completely. As i said before hopefully in a future update they will increase the use of skills at lower ranks and enhanced traits at higher ones.

I agree higher ranked creeps should be much more powerful than their lower ranked counterparts, yes. I also think the same of freeps as well, obviously that would take a lot of effort to work out however.

Higher ranked creeps in your group should make a huge difference and a rank 0 freep running into a rank 14 warg should need a change on underwear. Similarly a rank 0 warg running into a rank 14 freep should also be have an "oh stuff" moment.

[Grusk]

Ranked freep response on the topic:

I can see why they want something to be able to sell to creep players, there's not a great deal of stuff they can sell creeps. That said, the lowering of required ranks, and selling of skills to lower ranks, would seem to demean the efforts of ranked creeps beyond reason. I suggest that something will need to be given r11+ creeps beyond the current and that skill sales be limited to within 1 or 2 ranks of the original requirement.

Hopefully the xpac can be a pleasant experience for all.

[Supersomeone]

I didn't have that big of an issue with maps. But the ability to purchase all ranked skills, traits, racials, and corruptions took things a bit too far. Only reason to rank now is for a pretty skin and combat promotions.

Pay to win FTL!

[Afterthought]

Ranked freep response on the topic:

I can see why they want something to be able to sell to creep players, there's not a great deal of stuff they can sell creeps. That said, the lowering of required ranks, and selling of skills to lower ranks, would seem to demean the efforts of ranked creeps beyond reason. I suggest that something will need to be given r11+ creeps beyond the current and that skill sales be limited to within 1 or 2 ranks of the original requirement.

Hopefully the xpac can be a pleasant experience for all.

They could sell cosmetic fluff like the do for freeps. All they needed to do was create some awesome looking skins for the creeps and sell those in the store. instant $$.

[Louvre]

For 1 thing we get and you start to QQ. Have you seen all of the freep changes? Imagine a regular rank 0 with no skills. They are destroyed the second they step out of grams atm, after RoI, they would die by breathing the same air as freeps.

A silly creep store=100% better than no update at all.

You could think that this is the first step to a series of updates and improvements, but no, all you want is to QQ because they're touching your precious e-peen. Grow up. This is a game.

[stubing]

+rep

I think top geared freeps should be balanced around rank 10 creeps since that is what 99% of the creeps they face will be that or weaker. I think the people who dedicate time to pvmp should get skills that make them stronger at rank 11-15. The high ranks are the ones who put up with being a green dot and the horrible freep favored moors has been for the majority of time.

[Afterthought]

For 1 thing we get and you start to QQ. Have you seen all of the freep changes? Imagine a regular rank 0 with no skills. They are destroyed the second they step out of grams atm, after RoI, they would die by breathing the same air as freeps.

A silly creep store=100% better than no update at all.

You could think that this is the first step to a series of updates and improvements, but no, all you want is to QQ because they're touching your precious e-peen. Grow up. This is a game.

On BR all the creep classes have seen updates to skills, morale, power, defenses, finesse and the like. The increases the freeps have been given will make it no harder on a new creep than it is now. I'd argue, even without buying skills greenie creeps will be in the best position they have ever been in.

This is turbine grasping at dollars. They know we want updates and they are saying well we will give you some but we're going to exploit you and make you pay for it first. Unfortunately they forget that many of us have been paying subs to PvP and yet all that money was put towards improving pve content.

This has nothing to do with e-peens. People still know who the high ranks are, they can see the symbols, they can see the morale so the e-peen factor is still there. People are upset, and rightfully so, because instead of advancing your character by playing the game people can now advance their character using $$ without even playing the game.

I seriously don't see why anyone would buy skills. We are here to play a game so why pay money to avoid playing some of the game.

[ksjock]

Freeps at rank zero (can) have all their skills and traits.
Freeps really get nothing for ranking up.
Freeps still come out and PvP.

Creeps will, IMHO, still PvP for the enjoyment of it. Regardless of how many extra buttons they have to press.
Please don't try to read anything extra into this. I just don't think this will be game changing.

I play creep side because I like to PvP and I don't like to grind levels, gear, weapons, crafting, etc.
I also like that if I have 30min to game I can log onto my creep kill a few freeps and log off.
If I PvPed on my freeps again it would take a month of my usual LOTRO play time quota to get just one class Moors ready.

I think you will find that many other creeps are like me too.

But I have to agree that high ranked PKers should get something.
The aura idea, I think, has merit.

[Beleg-Of-Doriath]

/signed

1234


This change to the Ettenmoors should not be used as an argument regarding balance. This has nothing to do with creep/freep balanace, it has to do with something with a spare bit of cash buying their way to the top, bypassing people who've been PvMPing for years.

If order to get rid of these ludicrous changes both freeps and creeps need to unite against it, not turn it into another slanging match about balance.

[OverlordGate]

Freeps at rank zero (can) have all their skills and traits.
Freeps really get nothing for ranking up.
Freeps still come out and PvP.

Creeps will, IMHO, still PvP for the enjoyment of it. Regardless of how many extra buttons they have to press.
Please don't try to read anything extra into this. I just don't think this will be game changing.

I play creep side because I like to PvP and I don't like to grind levels, gear, weapons, crafting, etc.
I also like that if I have 30min to game I can log onto my creep kill a few freeps and log off.
If I PvPed on my freeps again it would take a month of my usual LOTRO play time quota to get just one class Moors ready.

I think you will find that many other creeps are like me too.

But I have to agree that high ranked PKers should get something.
The aura idea, I think, has merit.

Nope!

Freeps never had any changes with their rank to skills or something. This cames up there with Kelsen´s changes to PvP-armour, relicts, horses and now upgraded items! So a high rank creep can´t say: "Oh they just buy the things I played a long time (a very very long time) for in a few seconds!" Because high ranked freeps never got good stuff at high ranks, but now they will!

@Afterthought: I must be feared that the increase of the improved rabid bite won´t be updated to lvl 75 like it was always with creep skills. So the now really good improvement won´t be it with Isengart in front of the freepchanges.

[Afterthought]

@Afterthought: I must be feared that the increase of the improved rabid bite won´t be updated to lvl 75 like it was always with creep skills. So the now really good improvement won´t be it with Isengart in front of the freepchanges.

I wasn't arguing if the skills were good or not, obviously we need an update there. I was saying the concept of skills at low ranks and traits at high ranks, like rabid bite is a good one.

[Raphael12]

/signed

Saw this day comming when the LOTRO store was first introduced...

But... I am in agreement with After on the skills idea... Its great that they can have a fully functioned class thats achievable... But being one of those "High Ranks" I also agree with Gate higher ranks deserve to be able to strut with pride of what they earned, its not an easy accomplishment. The Finesse is a great idea, but its not enough if you ask me.. Id love seeing more advanced skills after r9+... and not just for creeps.. for freeps as well...

[Muzzard]

Definitely!

When you are rank 10 you have all you can wish for... with 400.000 points

Then again 3.300.000 points? for what lol?

If more players signed to the topic Turbine have to react! I´m confident on that

Exactly, I feel like they shot me in the foot.

[Prancey]

Rabid bite got nerfed though. It is no longer a Power DoT. Now it raises the cost of the freep's skills by 10% (20% if traited), and at the moment, it does NOT WORK.

[AroJay]

Rabid bite got nerfed though. It is no longer a Power DoT. Now it raises the cost of the freep's skills by 10% (20% if traited), and at the moment, it does NOT WORK.

And with Turbine's amazing track record, it won't work for at least 4 months past release. And then they'll claim they didn't know it was broken.

[OverlordGate]

I wasn't arguing if the skills were good or not, obviously we need an update there. I was saying the concept of skills at low ranks and traits at high ranks, like rabid bite is a good one.

okay, I totally agree with that

Rabid bite got nerfed though. It is no longer a Power DoT. Now it raises the cost of the freep's skills by 10% (20% if traited), and at the moment, it does NOT WORK.

you´re joking, right? omg... what the hell is going on in the head of the guy who spin this out? that it doesn´t work is no surprise, the powercost of the rune keeper doesn´t work too... but you just have to compare this rune keeper skill to this warg "improvement" 100% - 20% what the hell? the same to the new fleabites... about 20% more time to cast I think... compare this to 75% of burglar... I just don´t understand.... why in the name of jesus

[Arvaen]

Rabid bite got nerfed though. It is no longer a Power DoT. Now it raises the cost of the freep's skills by 10% (20% if traited), and at the moment, it does NOT WORK.

What the hell??? That was one of our best tools, especially against shield wardens and guards... They've made it next to useless...

Who came up with that ####?!

[Prancey]

What the hell??? That was one of our best tools, especially against shield wardens and guards... They've made it next to useless...

Who came up with that ####?!

No clue, but at first, with the trait, full damage corruptions and in SH it was a very powerful Power DoT. Drained a total of about 5k-6k power =/.