Rune-keeper planned changes with Isengard

[Dedfyre]

How have the mana costs of rune-keeper heals been effected on Beta?

There have been healing magnitude cuts across both classes apparently, but minstrels are also complaining about 100% increase to the cost of their heals. Have rune-keepers fared better.

[Alad.]

To add clarification to exactly what was removed regarding the increased defense - Shall Not Fall This Day currently provides 1,300 rating or 5.2% defense to Melee, Tactical and Ranged damage.

Thanks Unixbomber, I added the things you mentioned into the initial post.

If I'm not mistaken, each stone offers an affinity of -5% mitigation on your target for either Lightning, Fire or Frost and still has a 20% chance to be removed on applicable damage.

Hmm... they do mention increased incoming damage not decreased mitigaiton. Can you take another look? And does this debuff get removed when the morale reduction is triggered? (It should stay on, shouldn't it?)

[Alad.]

I don't think the RK was damaged so much as dramatically changed. In order to bring Lightning in line with Fire, Zombie buffed Fire in a major way and nerfed Lightning.

Yes, our Healing was also nerfed. Strangely enough, so was that of the Minstrel (from what my Minstrel friends tell me). Not sure what the reasoning behind that is except for possibly the Store. Anyway, the reason is speculative, but it did happen.

What this amounts to is that we are no longer top tier DPS. In fact, Orion has said as much in the Champ thread:



The top DPS is now held by Champs and Hunters, and that is by design.

I think we are still top tier Healers and will fill that roll nicely in Fellowships and small group encounters. However, I think Minstrels are the clear choice for endgame raids due to their additional group buffs and better AoE heals.

That is the reality of RoI. Now it is up to us to adapt and attempt to excel beyond the roles redefined for us. Yes, Hunters and Champs should be the ST DPS Kings by design. But that won't prevent a good RK DPS build from still outshining a Hunter or Champ player that doesn't know how to maximize their class or build. For the first time in a long time, skill will be a defining factor in how our class is perceived. This is a good thing.

Since F2P and the last RK update, it's been a pathetic ezmode faceroll for our class and other FoTM players have dragged the perception of our class through the mud. We now have the opportunity to transcend the limitations and rise above the rabble.

I like what you wrote, Overtone It's a very positive, agrumented way of seeing things, without blindingly taking the defence of the devs as some people are apt to do.
+rep

[Alad.]

I'm still wondering if, when balanced by stat cap changes that will almost certainly cause:
1) Higher incoming healing on targets
2) Higher outgoing healing from RK
3) Higher crit rates from RK

Our heals will end up being really nerfed. Yes, skills LOOK nerfed, but with all that combined what will be the actual impact on heals per second?

And that is without chucking in a Captain Song Brother...

This reminds me of what happened when Moria was launched. One step forward, 2 steps back. They had modified a few mob parameters that caused them not to miss even when fighting a player that is 40 levels above them, increased their resistances to tactical skills, turned tactical skill damage and healing into ranges (ie introduced randomness) and lowered them, etc... And what everyone was saying then was: It'll be fine again when we reach 60, and it was partially true.

My point is, Turbine seem to have problems with managing level cap raises. It always feels to me like they weaken everyone so that by levelling further they can get back to where they were and feel like they've advanced. But it feels like I said: Two steps back and one step forward. Or if you're optimistic, One step back and two steps forward.

I don't understand why they have those problems, and why there always has to be that backward step.

[Ellery01]

For the one individual commenting about the bubble being a nerf because your tank friend didn't take any damage during that time, it's an odd situation to use as an example. Technically, the less damage the person you bubble takes during the duration of the bubble, the better the bubble is in relation to the current 50% mitigation. IE, if you take less than 3k damage during that 14 seconds, then your target took 0 damage, instead of <1500. The bubble change is definitely not a nerf, it's just different and it's comparability is going to be entirely situational. It'll still come with 20% mitigations (traited) too.

[Unixbomber]

I'm not trying to kill your buzz, but this is possible now, at lvl65. Hell, I'm just waving my e-peen at this point, but I've dev'd 1250+ on r6+ reavers on live, with no bracelet or hat dev mag buffs.

No worries on killing my buzz as mitigation and defenses in general have been noticeably buffed for creeps and considering I was using a level 65 first age stone; I'm personally happy with the results. I'm not overly concerned with any changes in the damage department as lightning has always been sporadic in nature and with Shocking Words hitting between 3-5k damage at the high end I'm waiting to see a final build before worrying too much; the nature of every beta has always been that things can change and often do.

Hmm... they do mention increased incoming damage not decreased mitigaiton. Can you take another look? And does this debuff get removed when the morale reduction is triggered? (It should stay on, shouldn't it?)

I'd be happy to verify it for you but the test server is currently down and likely will be until any further testing event; I'll check it when able to though. I'm fairly certain it was -5% mitigation though which does equate to more damage; essentially when you're using it you're getting more overall damage while hitting your target until the morale reduction is triggered. Using it before perfect imagery is money.

[Morecrabs]

I think the RK class was damaged alot More than U all know, The Mass Group doesn't See How Dynamic u can be...
trying to buy your way into a raid will be harder than ever... when your damage is less than a hunter/champ the hunter champ will be the clear choice, and your healing is less than a minstrel.. the Minstrel will be the clear choice.. the class cant party Buff, and Now they are stunted healers as well... Leaving the Minstrel as the Clear choice..

the Devs want us to Focus using More Fire..... Fire is useless In SOLO combat... Fire WILL remain useless In moors and in SOLOing....The spells cant be cast while Moving U have to stand still to use them (just like EC) EC was worth the risk for the Huge damage but it seems to be No longer... A huge Portion of RK survival IS Kiting, and Dropping your Enemies quickly.. if it came time for an extended fight suddenly your Robes are as thin as tissue paper.. if u stopped Moving.. induction or NOT you are dead... What dev really doesnt understand is Without the CC Provided by things Like traps, Lm Mezzes, Hunter Fearing, pets.. Induction spells Just arent useable in battle Period...

In practice I see this Going only One way... an epic Conclusion to what was once a fun class to Play.. and the tearing down of a class we all HAD to pay for to use.. DOTS are Great for Drawing a Monsters attention.. But are useless without something tanking what will inevitably come to Kill for your efforts and your be sitting still letting them do it while u try to stack another DOT on them... suddenly a 5-10 second Mezz was never shorter..

what was the Point of a glass cannon class if your Going to take away the Damage, and then add further Insult and Injury by insisting Fire isnt just as useless as ever?

Bottom line.. anyone who called for a Nerf to this class Didnt understand how it worked or ever played one.. Largely it was the ####### community..
a F2p class that just cant seem to have enough blessings it seems and finally the Community of Creeps who Target Rks first in any group raid because of our extremely Low Midigations in combat.. and low morale.... the EC that took that large chunk.. just wasnt big enough it seems.. and Now never will be again.. Dev took away all the weapons that made the RK COMPETITIVE and gave em Dots to stack in its place.. in a word USELESS fire does WILL always be by Nature the Single most useless thing on the Moors and In Soloing.. PERIOD.... making them pretty useless in general..

[DelgonTheWise]

In practice I see this Going only One way... an epic Conclusion to what was once a fun class to Play.. and the tearing down of a class we all HAD to pay for to use.. DOTS are Great for Drawing a Monsters attention.. But are useless without something tanking what will inevitably come to Kill for your efforts and your be stilling still letting them do it while u try to stack another DOT on them... suddenly a 5-10 second Mezz was never shorter..

I didn't pay to use the class specifically as a lifer, came with Moria, which I bought anyway to play my Capt in.

But anyway, if you see the doom and gloom in the Guard, the Mini, and the Hunter forums, it makes it funny to see the above on how hunters and Minis are going to beat us out for spots in raids

[dagneyandleo]

Excellent point, DelgonTheWise. +rep

<grammar nazi moment>
Before my eyes start bleeding, and I start going on crazy rants about the difference between 'its' and 'it's,' if people could review: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp . Capitalization is a beautiful thing when used well. On a related note, ellipses are great when used to denote drama... like right now. However, ellipses aren't periods. Periods are periods. If you don't know basic rules of grammar, just stop using capitals and punctuation for now, read a book (http://www.bartleby.com/141/ for example), and learn something.
</grammar nazi moment>

[flyingcircus]

I didn't pay to use the class specifically as a lifer, came with Moria, which I bought anyway to play my Capt in.

But anyway, if you see the doom and gloom in the Guard, the Mini, and the Hunter forums, it makes it funny to see the above on how hunters and Minis are going to beat us out for spots in raids

almost every class forum...
if you believed the doom and gloomers you'd be convinced every class is about to come crashing down in a ball of flame
just don't listen to em

[Morecrabs]

I take it all back, your all correct... dev has never screwed anything up sooooo horribly it needed over 200 changes to make it even close to decent (stares directly at champion class)

some times folks actually complain for valid reasons.. this isnt a hunter complaining they dont have tremedous self healing on top of everything else

My complaint is about the total wreck soloing and playing on the Moors will be for the RK if they think Dots and induction fire skills are the way forward for the RK..

Fury of the storm in its current form was the only thing that made an RK useful on the Moors otherwise they are simply a free kill and a ez target..

[Thorgrum]

Complain as loud and as often as you can now, and ignore grammar nazi's and people who tell you to chill out. This is still in beta, this is the time when your complaints have the off chance of creating an outcome you desire. That being said, an update will be fairly quick anyway after release (didnt they say before xmas?)so the bitching can continue through X mas or until update 5 is done. Again, complaining now and before an update is the best time to do so.

I posted this elsewhere in other forums but the Hunters are dominating the convo (rightfully so, it looks like they were porked).

Would an RK beta tester comment on the effects of the +20% outgoing healing and the +10% incoming healing as part of the stat cap unlock in relation to the healing nerfs? It would seem to me I can now boost my outgoing healing by 20% by upping will via gear and mitigate the nerfs. Additionally tanks can up their incoming by 10% so the toon can, to a degree make up for the nerfs via traiting and gear.

Even the WOH Tier nerfs would be mitigated by this wouldn’t they? Is this boosting my total healing out put or +20% to each individual heal cast?

[Morecrabs]

I didn't pay to use the class specifically as a lifer, came with Moria, which I bought anyway to play my Capt in.

But anyway, if you see the doom and gloom in the Guard, the Mini, and the Hunter forums, it makes it funny to see the above on how hunters and Minis are going to beat us out for spots in raids

yah yet another example of how someone with No grounds to reply is replying..

Your captains roll, is a Support class for excellent unsurpassed party buffing and secondary healing No class offers anything close..

The RK as a healer offers No buffs just healz...

My claim states the RK is losing its place in raids for damage, thanx to the nerfs.. and for Healing thanx to the Nerfs

Raids are filled with the most effective choices.. which would u take? the Mini who can Buff, and do best healing? or the Rk, with newly nerfed healing?

and for Damage, who would u take.. the hunter who does even More damage after the update? with 4x the range of an RK, and More damage than an RK? or the Rk with newly stunted damage?

it was a choice that needed pondering b4.. which to take? Now its gonna be clear which not to take if u have a choice..

[DelgonTheWise]

yah yet another example of how someone with No grounds to reply is replying..

Your captains roll, is a Support class for excellent unsurpassed party buffing and secondary healing No class offers anything close..

The RK as a healer offers No buffs just healz...

My claim states the RK is losing its place in raids for damage, thanx to the nerfs.. and for Healing thanx to the Nerfs

I'll comment and reply all I like, thanks.

Minis are complaining in Mini forum vociferously about their heals being nerfed. You are asserting that RK healers are being nerfed worse? Well, could be so, would love to see ROI HPS parses by comparably geared Mini's/RKs against same tank.

Hunters are complaining about DPS nerfs vociferously in the Hunter forum. Be interesting to see more parses of RK vs Hunter too. I'm guessing RK in raid for damage, doing fire, will be most welcome. Perhaps lightning RK in raid is thing of the past, but that seems to me to be a repair of bad design (Fire == not very usable now). Lighting should always have been the trash/solo/PVP line, Fire should have been the raid/grouping line.

[Thorgrum]

Perhaps lightning RK in raid is thing of the past, but that seems to me to be a repair of bad design (Fire == not very usable now). Lighting should always have been the trash/solo/PVP line, Fire should have been the raid/grouping line.

Indeed, it appears that they have gotten it right. At this point we will need to carry multiple stones and bags and perhaps sets of gear to be viable in all 3 scenarios: grouping DPS/Fire, Solo lightening, and heals. Im not thrilled about the lightening changes but that’s mostly because ive been brought up on it but I don’t see anything in the changes that will preclude me to not use it as the solo line though 75. Heals though has me a little perplexed as the stat caps are being unlocked or upped. As I asked in my other post it would appear the nerfs would be a balance attempt between the uncap lock, but we need a RK beta person (or the dev) to answer that for us.

Im sure he would much rather come here then the Hunter forum……

[Unixbomber]

Indeed, it appears that they have gotten it right. At this point we will need to carry multiple stones and bags and perhaps sets of gear to be viable in all 3 scenarios: grouping DPS/Fire, Solo lightening, and heals. Im not thrilled about the lightening changes but that’s mostly because ive been brought up on it but I don’t see anything in the changes that will preclude me to not use it as the solo line though 75. Heals though has me a little perplexed as the stat caps are being unlocked or upped. As I asked in my other post it would appear the nerfs would be a balance attempt between the uncap lock, but we need a RK beta person (or the dev) to answer that for us.

Im sure he would much rather come here then the Hunter forum……

If you trait healing and utilize outgoing healing items, settings, etc you're going to be fine. The update provides for a lot of customization in different builds but you're still ultimately going to want to invest in what you want to maximize most. A healing rune-keeper as a captain's song brother is nasty. The steady attunement changes are annoying to deal with and feel they will result in unintended results down the line as it's so easy to shift attunement back and forth it's not even funny.

[Morecrabs]

So the new rune keeper will need to retract for every situation and require 3x of each stone and satchel even one perfectly. Built set was atronomicly expensive let alone 3 of each to use a nerved fury of the storm line which gets heavily battered by increased attunement shifts of what painfully lacking support spells the class actually does have need power in battle? Be ready to sacrifice 2/3rds of that hard built attunement to get it.. and I don't care what you say fire is useless on the moors and during solo... and nerved lightening only makes things worse

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Complain as loud and as often as you can now, and ignore grammar nazi's and people who tell you to chill out. This is still in beta, this is the time when your complaints have the off chance of creating an outcome you desire. That being said, an update will be fairly quick anyway after release (didnt they say before xmas?)so the bitching can continue through X mas or until update 5 is done. Again, complaining now and before an update is the best time to do so.

I think the Grammar nuts do have a point in that a cohesive post with a decent format and proper spelling is more aesthetically pleasing than a lesser quality post. I have even come up with a system to deal with particularly bad aesthetics that would ravage my eyes- I don't read them. If a developer does read through hundreds of posts per day they'll probably do the same and skip over the ones that are less pleasing to their eyes.

[Neen_Eldar]

So the new rune keeper will need to retract for every situation and require 3x of each stone and satchel even one perfectly

Do already tbh, being part-time gets you no where

[Eldrandir]

Im sure he would much rather come here then the Hunter forum……

I think he is hiding from both of us. Judging by the mention of ZC in the burg dev diary I would suggest that he is hiding in the burg forums by means of hunter camo or burg Share the Fun.

[Thorgrum]

I think the Grammar nuts do have a point in that a cohesive post with a decent format and proper spelling is more aesthetically pleasing than a lesser quality post. I have even come up with a system to deal with particularly bad aesthetics that would ravage my eyes- I don't read them. If a developer does read through hundreds of posts per day they'll probably do the same and skip over the ones that are less pleasing to their eyes.

Cohesive and grammar/spelling are not necessarily intertwined. I garnished the message from his post, he thinks the nerf to lightening sucks. Rather than critique the delivery and waste time with that, a simple speed read will get you the gist. The developers could employ this tactic rather simply and save time, thus allowing them to read more. Sadly its redundancy that’s likely the bane of devs reading more, not poor grammar and spelling errors on a message board post.

I mean, it’s not 1998, eloquence in the electronic environment shouldn’t be expected and those who endeavor to what appears to be shaming others for their posting style often lose credibility as their replies are not on topic to begin with. (see what I did in the end? )

[Neen_Eldar]

Smells like owned, +1

[Morecrabs]

Im posting from a mobile phone punctuation is difficult at best and auto correct is slaughtering my spelling and Grammar

My overall Point is this

With the effective off the top minimum 20 percent damage Nerf the Lightining line has received has severely crippled

Moors play and survivability and solo play ...

but Go ahead and stand still and try to stack dots on creeps that will be constantly interrupting your horribly long inductions further crippled by the fact that trying to kite in any fashion will cancel the spell entirely.. so u can cause a measly 1000 damage over 6 seconds b4 they kill you

all at a utterly pathetic 10 meter range.. Making fire skills totally useless on the moors, In solo play or In a spar..

Lightening will remain the superior choice, but the intended result was to Make the class Impotent in battle, Congrats mission accomplished.. I was in the beta test... it was as sad as it was pathetic.. trying to stack dots with horrible inductions while something is punching you in the face.. and kiting making your spells uncastable,

now i know you will all counter argue that Hunter and Lms have to deal with Inductions, but they Can Trap, CC can Ingore stun and interrupt effects, dont need to build Focus during combat.. and have a pet to tank or can root their targets at 30+ meters.. what can the RK do but stack Dots at 10 meters and pray to sauron that a 1 in 5 shot every 20 seconds will result in a 5 second stun? while begging it doesnt get resisted..(shocking words is the Most resisted spell in an rks aresnal)

[Unixbomber]

My overall Point is this#

With the effective off the top minimum 20 percent damage Nerf the Lightining line has received has severely crippled

Moors play and survivability and solo play ...

but Go ahead and stand still and try to stack dots on creeps that will be constantly interrupting your horribly long inductions further crippled by the fact that trying to kite in any fashion will cancel the spell entirely.. so u can cause a measly 1000 damage over 6 seconds b4 they kill you

all at a utterly pathetic 10 meter range.. Making fire skills totally useless on the moors, In solo play or In a spar..

Lightening will remain the superior choice, but the intended result was to Make the class Impotent in battle, Congrats mission accomplished.. I was in the beta test... it was as sad as it was pathetic.. trying to stack dots with horrible inductions while something is punching you in the face.. and kiting making your spells uncastable,

now i know you will all counter argue that Hunter and Lms have to deal with Inductions, but they Can Trap, CC can Ingore stun and interrupt effects, dont need to build Focus during combat.. and have a pet to tank or can root their targets at 30+ meters.. what can the RK do but stack Dots at 10 meters and pray to sauron that a 1 in 5 shot every 20 seconds will result in a 5 second stun? while begging it doesnt get resisted..(shocking words is the Most resisted spell in an rks aresnal)

What are you basing this 'effective off the top minimum 20 percent damage Nerf' on? I ran combat analysis throughout beta and with each build found a consistant net increase to lightning damage output. Yes, the method of getting that output, not unlike when traiting fire, has changed but it is still very much effective. If you run a high finesse build with RoI and maximize your fate and crit percentages you will still very easily succeed when traiting lightning. Anyone accustomed to spamming ceaseless argument until your eyes bleed followed by epic conclusion may find disappointment but there appears to be a focus on buffing the overall arsenal of lightning damage done by each attack which provides a little more flavor to traiting lightning, which some would agree isn't a bad thing.

[Morecrabs]

they removed the base 30% crit multipler from the traiting Line, and replaced it with a was it 2 or 3% for each trait in succession? Nobody is going to be traiting all 7 to maximize the bonus which at the moment is at best 21% with 7 traited, u could trait for the + 10% from calming verse only to lose 3 % from another trait..(more nerfing) along with Decreased the damage and scribe spark, ceaseless argument and Sustaining bolt..

This is further Stunted by the increases in Resistances all Mobs received.. Losing base damage (the stat which is multiplied in the first place) which hurt the most by far.. and then furthering the nerf by taking away the multiplier and replacing it with a hacked up version instead..

any RK worth his salt knows that casting EC without first building all the Appropriate buffs from Scribe spark, ceaseless argument, tale of storm, etc.. is basically wasting his time and power.. and if u add it all up yes Ceaseless argument nerf did infact hurt the most because if your damage calculator was worth anything, it would give u a break down, and u would know the MAJORITY of the DPS in the Lightning Line came from those two spells, EC was fun to look at and Cool when it Crits, but amounted to an average of less than 10th of the overall damage to be dealt..during any given battle

the real damage came from Attunement buffs(which now does less because of base damage nerfs) and Criticals from scribe spark and ceaseless argument(nearly 60% of your overall damage) which have been Beaten sillly with the nerf bat along with the Multipliers.

so effectively your losing around 20% based on vs a current build

some claimed that EC also lost some form of multiplier that i was never able to idenfify which accounts for why RKs who COULD dev crit for nearly 8k will now at best see 4.5- 5.5 at the greatest..

the Cut at the Base from which the Multipled numbers are derived, and then cut the Multipliers and finally Amp resistances.. there u have the overall effective nerf.. which is somewhere close to 20%

but dont worry, we now have new and improved dots to stack, and the horrible inductions and Loss the ability to kite that comes with them..

i also noticed in the beta that the Finesse stat was Not included into the versions of equipment and armors for the older expansions and jewelries

and like all Gear in this game you will never able to maximize those stats without paying tons of money down the toilet for Stat tomes available via the Lotro store.. so Finesse indeed becomes the New Radiance cuz Grinding for specific raid gear will once again become the Staple of this game if u want to accomplish anything or be anything

you Need a new combat analysis tool