Rise of Isengard: Minstrel Dev Diary Feedback

[Jadzi]

If medium armor already in my inventory is bound to me, can I still put it in the wardrobe after RoI? I've got a few pieces that I really like the look of - I'd like to know for pre-RoI wardrobe planning.

You should be able to, as I believe most (if not all) of the current wardrobe restrictions are being removed anyway.

[alibutterfly82]

My own, personal, knee-jerk reaction...

My minstrel is what I consider my main. She's the character I'm the most experienced with and with whom I have completed the most content. I've logged the most hours on her out of all of my characters. I've considered myself fairly competent in groups and have had that estimation of myself reinforced by others.

This "back to the drawing board" revamp of the class will essentially put me (and everyone playing a minstrel) back at square one. I'll have what amounts to zero experience with her now, despite the fact that I've played her for years. This will make me at least hesitant - if not outright completely unwilling - to join any groups, since I don't want to be incurring the wrath of a group for not keeping them alive while I'm relearning almost all of my skill rotations and usages (not to mention which new traits are best, which legacies are now useful for me with these new skills/rotations, which relics, etc.).

I suppose I may get over it eventually, but for now, it's hard for me to see any personal positives to this. What will be will be, I guess, and it's not like I'm ragequitting or anything, it's just frustrating I was really attached to my little Sparkle just the way she was. I didn't want to play a different class as my main, but now - playing the same class kind of WILL be like playing a different class.

Obviously not everyone feels the same though - again, this is just my opinion.

[Jassiminn]

@shiredweller

I believe, and i will need to follow up with another dev, that worn and bound armour will all simply become light armour. It may just be the armour that you are wearing though. Whuchever it is the armour will have the same look, same stats but contributions willnchange to be in line with light armour instead of medium. That should (emphasis should) only affect the armour rating of the item. Level. Appearance and so on should remain the same.

I Believe that the armour recipes remain the same. Though we may have made them into light.

With that, I will no longer play the Minstrel again. I only played it with medium armour because well, I liked the looks better and they suited me better stat wise with my playstyle. I have absolutely no interest in how the stats of light armour are for other people. I solo quest for the most part. If I wanted to be 'squishy' I would have played a LM or I would continue leveling up my RK. I've been playing a minstrel about 3 years now and never bothered with the class 'light armour sets' because I couldn't stand them. Since the Med armour that 'should' be whatever it is you plan will quickly be outstripped in the new expansion, I expect whatever I am wearing now will not last and keep me alive fighting level 75+ monsters.

I guess I will just make my Minstrell a crafting alt. That will be all she is good for after the change, regardless of skills, because I played the minstrel to also wear med armour. That's what drew me to the class in the first place.

All I can say is I'm very disappointed.

[Erethal]

I'll be yet another to say that Dissonance would be way cooler than War-speech. It would be much more consistent with the reinforced theme of the Minstrel.

[Tollaf]

FIrst of all, congrats Orion and thank you for all the effort that you have put in. Regardless of anything this change will make the minstrel a more challenging and I think balanced class to play and I think that that can only be a good thing. Without wanting to seem demanding though... Some info on how the legacies are changing would be lovely!

And I put a vote in for disonance...

With that, I will no longer play the Minstrel again. ... That's what drew me to the class in the first place.

All I can say to this is after the update med armour will have no useful stats for a mini, all of our damage is from will, so might or agility will be of no use and the added armour can come from the replacement trait. Med armour will be full of agility for hunters and burgs i'd say so it will be of no use what-so-ever to minis. Think of it, you can get relevant damage bonus stats AND the extra AC rating if you desire... Much better than at present

[mr_underfoot]

just putting in my minority vote PRO war-speech instead of dissonance.

first off, "war-speech" is more consistent with the lore. it feels more middle-earthy. the word dissonance has latin roots, which tolkien avoided in his naming schemes.

also, "dissonance" makes me think of stravinsky's "rite of spring" and the riot that it caused. i just can't imagine middle-earth minstrels making harsh, "ugly" music, even to attack foes. the power of their music that sapped their opponents' morale didn't come from clashing chords, at least not the way i imagined it.

[BelamanthDE]

I like what I'm seeing.

So many changes though that I might just scrap my lvl57 Minstrel (which I haven't played in months) and start over. Been looking for a reason to redo Eriador anyway.

The only thing that would really hurt me about this step is that this the one char I took to kindred with the Inn League... back in the day when doing the Shire pub crawl was the only way to raise rep after doing the delivery quests.

[Roufneck]

Just wondering...

Anthem of the Third Age (Melody) - Coda grants free use of Bolster Courage for 10 seconds.
According to the post by Cloudie-wan it makes BC also instant cast.

Does this mean we can spam BC without any inductions or power costs?


EDIT: nvm...

Melody grants - While active if the coda is used: Your next Bolster Courage can be cast without an induction timer or power cost if cast within ten seconds.

[Bradegor]

The real problem for many minstrels will be just to learn the new class, because it´s a new one. But once it´s done ... man, i have seen so many good things, that i´d hardly complain about anything. Once minstrels get used and know how to play their class, those power costs will be very reduced, and their new buff system is simply brilliant.

Congratulations to those minstrels who will feel happy with the new system, and sorry to all those minstrels who didn´t want their class to change.

If what the rumours of proposed changes of healing RKs are true, then you minstrels have nothing to worry about competence, you will be the true masters of the healing, and competing very high with captains about masters of the buffs.

[Adanamir]

What I like the most is the concept of the changes, as I cannot really say anything on the specifics, something that will come with actual play. Basically, I think it is a very good idea that minstrels will be able to choose what role they wish to strengthen - healing, buffing or damage. I think this brings a lot of tactical depth to playing the class, which is definitely for the better. Still, I do hope that minstrels will be able to remain the primary healing class, as a reduction in baseline damage will be indeed unfortunate. After all, if minstrels are no longer the best healers around, there doesn't remain much difference between them and rune-keepers ...

I agree with the view that removing medium armour will not be really such a big issue, as with all the class changes, medium armour will indeed have no particular value for minstrels anymore. Besides, it frees a trait slot, which I think is quite beneficial.

I have a couple of practical questions: for example, do you intend to keep the same cooldown when changing a stance? I think this should be reduced (or there should be a legacy or trait able to do that), in order to let minstrels change their role during combat. Naturally, it would be best if stances can be changed instantly, without any lingering effects, but I would happy if there is something like a 5s transition. Also, do you plan any new/improved skills after level 65?

Overall, I feel good with changes, and this is the second dev diary that makes me smile (after the captain one). I'm kind of split between playing captain and minstrel, so the changes to both vlasses sound very good and interesting.

[e6172]

I'm very happy with these changes; everything looks great.

Oh, and I vote for dissonance too.

[BINKLEY1]

The icons have changed even more. Feedback in beta made mention that they were all too alike. We have adjusted them to be G-clef (major), C-clef (perfect) and Treble/F-clef (minor) to make the appearances more distinguishable.

Yay for C-clef! Hardly anyone knows about it any more. Nice touch.

[DerBarde]

While I agree that this is a very well worked out dev diary, I still don't see the expressed hope to explain the reasons for all this fulfilled.
This question for me still remains: why?
The minstrel was fine the way it was. And given the expression that the complete rework of the way anthems work "may become mainstays of the Minstrel class" I don't see any good reason for changing the class in such a huge way when there's no assurance for continuity.

Mind you, I'm not saying I don't like the changes nor am I saying that I like them. I spend most of my time roleplaying and I almost never do raids, so one way or the other I will be able to live with the changes I suppose.
It's just: why? I simply don't get it.

As for war speech vs. dissonance I'd rather suggest 'chorus' as a name for the third stance. Imagine a chorus of hundred singers, they will literally blow their opponents away simply by the force of their voices. Windpower

[Ronigard]

Okay, so if my Warspeech heals are now self-heals without a healing penalty, what is stopping me?

I mean, literally: if I can hit hard and heal myself, why not just make the enemies fall dead when they see me, and save us all some time?

Oh I am not complaining, I think solo-ing will be a lot more fun that way. But I feel like I am missing 'the catch' here.

[Roufneck]

While I agree that this is a very well worked out dev diary, I still don't see the expressed hope to explain the reasons for all this fulfilled.
This question for me still remains: why?
The minstrel was fine the way it was. And given the expression that the complete rework of the way anthems work "may become mainstays of the Minstrel class" I don't see any good reason for changing the class in such a huge way when there's no assurance for continuity.

Mind you, I'm not saying I don't like the changes nor am I saying that I like them. I spend most of my time roleplaying and I almost never do raids, so one way or the other I will be able to live with the changes I suppose.
It's just: why? I simply don't get it.

As I see it the minstrel became an advanced class with these changes.

For the average healer you can still spam Bolster Courage. Even go a bit crazy and add 3 ballads as needed for -power or +healing.

For the advanced healer you can do a lot more to get the most out of your class while healing. I didn't try the class yet, but I guess it's less boring now in long fights if you actually build up ballads and fire off codas while still trying to keep your raid fully healed.

[LeRaginAsian]

Concerning LI legacies:

Tier 1 and 2 ballad damage became Minor and Perfect ballad damage. You probably won't notice the transition. Weapons have an added major legacy that affects Anthem Duration which will probably replace WS tail effect duration. Everything else is much the same.

Concerning the class revamp:

It's a great change. It seems like a lot but it really isn't. Healing and dps skills are exactly how they were before and the group skills like CtG and Song of Aid remain potent and worthwhile. The only real system change is how (and for many people, whether) you utilize the ballad tiering/anthem process.

In essence, Anthems are the new ballads. They're on a shared cd, but they are stackable and the buffs are very worth it. I see a lot of blue minis venturing into yellow territory for the increased stackability.

The Coda is the new Anthem, only with a bigger immediate impact on the tide of battle. If you like the constant re-tiering of ballads, you will love the Coda. If you hated re-tiering ballads for the buffs, you'll probably avoid the Coda unless you need a big heal. If you're all about strictly maximizing your healing and cutting power costs, that's easier than ever to sustain.

In short, laid back minis can be more laid back, buffing minis get shinier toys, and bored minis who hated BC spamming get a big heal worth building up to in the Coda.

So those of you concerned about "re-learning" the class, I encourage you to give it a shot. It's much simpler once you get your hands on it.

Concerning dissonance:

You have my vote to change it. Just don't take away my glowy hands again!

[Dedfyre]

What is the base duration and cooldown of anthems? 10 and 20 or 10 and 15?

I've hearsay it was 10 and 15, but also that the minimum you could get the CD to was 5. I'm counting 3 -5 sec CD bonuses though.

[Kerin_Eldar]

Today Orion discusses the upcoming changes to Minstrels, "I hope that this diary explains the reasons for the changes and provides a roadmap for the future of the class."

Read more in the latest Developer Diary from Allan ‘Orion’ Maki and post your comments here!

The following entirely ambiguous, can Orion clarify:

Medium Armour – Super Important

Minstrels will no longer be able to wear medium armour. The trait allowing Minstrels to wear medium armour is being replaced with something that is equally valuable. It is important to note that any medium armour that is bound and that the Minstrel is wearing when the Isengard expansion goes live will become light armour

Does this mean ALL bound armour the minstrel has changes, or only that which he has equipped?

The phrase I have bolded could be read

a) any medium armour that is bound and WHICH the Minstrel is wearing
b) any medium armour that is bound and ALSO that [armour] the Minstrel is wearing

The way it's phrased seems to imply only equipped will be, since all equipped gear is bound, then by definition that would include equipped armour so the fact Orion specifically mentions gears that's EQUIPPED seems to mean not all medium armour will be changed: in which case that kind of sucks it seems to me, the character would end up with useless gear.

[ShireDweller]

can Orion clarify:

I had questions about this too, check page 2 in this thread for my questions and replies by Orion and others.

[Kerin_Eldar]

When I first mentioned the changes that I was considering for the Minstrel there was, with reason, a large outpouring of concern and question about the changes. More pointedly, however, many players wanted to know why we were making changes to the Minstrel in the first place. I hope, through this diary, to allay those concerns and questions enough to allow for a gentle transition to the new methods employed by the Minstrel. If nothing else, I hope that this diary explains the reasons for the changes and provides a roadmap for the

Many of us still do, you provide no explanation in that diary as to WHY you have totally redesigned the class into something barely recognisable with its' former self. This diary only describes the 'what' of the change, no mention of the 'why'.

When are you going to give that explanation. What did you think was so broken that a fundamental re-building of the class was needed? I've never seen anyone from Turbine explain this, your diary doesn't have a single sentence addressing the need for any changes, let alone something as radical as what you've done.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I had questions about this too, check page 2 in this thread for my questions and replies by Orion and others.

Okay, cheers, I hadn't noticed that yet:

I believe, and i will need to follow up with another dev, that worn and bound armour will all simply become light armour. It may just be the armour that you are wearing though. Whuchever it is

Yes Orion, but if ONLY worn armour is changed then minstrels that have multiple gear items for various slots will be left with unusable gear that they're not wearing at the moment the update hits: that would not be acceptable.

[LeRaginAsian]

What is the base duration and cooldown of anthems? 10 and 20 or 10 and 15?

I've hearsay it was 10 and 15, but also that the minimum you could get the CD to was 5. I'm counting 3 -5 sec CD bonuses though.

In the current build, the base is duration/cd is 10/20. It sounds bad until you realize that's with no yellow traits.

Glorious Anthem adds 5s to duration. Smooth Voice reduces cd by 5s. That will put you at an even 15/15 for a constant anthem buff.

3-deep yellow bonus takes another 5s from cd for 15/10, effectively giving you a 5s window to have two anthem buffs running. 4-deep bonus adds 5s to duration and takes 5s from cd (huge step up in bonus), putting you at 20/5. This translates to three constant anthem buffs if you're dilligent.

The major LI legacy adds up to 10s to duration. That's 30/5 for those of you keeping score and lets you keep four anthems up constantly.

Factor in that the Anthem of the Third Age - Harmony buff doesn't expire if you're in Harmony stance. Yep. Five of six anthem buffs at once if you want.

And yes, the anthem effects on the Coda stack.

I foresee 4 yellow/3 blue becoming a very popular build.

[ShireDweller]

just putting in my minority vote PRO war-speech instead of dissonance.

first off, "war-speech" is more consistent with the lore. it feels more middle-earthy. the word dissonance has latin roots, which tolkien avoided in his naming schemes.

also, "dissonance" makes me think of stravinsky's "rite of spring" and the riot that it caused. i just can't imagine middle-earth minstrels making harsh, "ugly" music, even to attack foes. the power of their music that sapped their opponents' morale didn't come from clashing chords, at least not the way i imagined it.

You make a good case for keeping away from "Dissonance". While it suits the musical theme, I didn't realize that Tolkien stayed away from words with Latin roots.

I propose a third alternative, still musical in nature - how about "War-Chant"?

[Kerin_Eldar]

You make a good case for keeping away from "Dissonance". While it suits the musical theme, I didn't realize that Tolkien stayed away from words with Latin roots.

Well, he used the word 'discord' and that is synonymous with 'dissonance' and while the etymology may be different, it's a pretty esoteric argument for avoiding using a perfectly reasonable and descriptive term , citing 'lore' reasons.

[LeRaginAsian]

Yes Orion, but if ONLY worn armour is changed then minstrels that have multiple gear items for various slots will be left with unusable gear that they're not wearing at the moment the update hits: that would not be acceptable.

The difference in level 65 and 75 gear is substantial enough that this statement will be true across the board. Gear unusable by your toon by weight restriction can now be added to the wardrobe, so cosmetic use will be preserved. I recommend wearing whatever medium armor set you use while dps-ing so it will be usable while leveling. I don't have one myself so I can't speak to the potential issue of having a second set become unusable.

If combat use is your concern, I can assure you that full self-heals in War-speech overwhelmingly make up for any +armour you're losing.