Rise of Isengard: Minstrel Dev Diary Feedback

[Anoir]

Great updates and great Dev diary imo. I havent played my minstrel since 2010 but I feel that with these changes I will and level it into 75 and maybe have some fun with it again

Thanks Orion.. brilliant job keep it up!

[Teldra]

Orion,

Here's an issue that hasn't been addressed with these radical changes to the minstrel: duration of the ballads in PvMP.

You state "Instead, these buffs apply themselves to the Minstrel and will stay active on the Minstrel until they actively leave combat for a short period or they use other skills that remove them."

As I understand the beta information, this is a 5 second cooldown to drop back out of combat.

I constantly drop in and out of combat as we chase around the Moors. This means that every fight I start with 3 ballads (minor) before I get my first cry off, assuming Im running in war speech.

Lets take last nights battles: I start at TR alternately healing and attacking creeps as we run down to the ford at TA. I counted and dropped out of combat no less than 4 times in each surge. Even if the tail on the ballads is 5 secs, I would have dropped out of buffing / casting.

Worse, I got jumped several times by wargs trying to kill off out healing. (A separate issue as we were fighting 5 defilers and 9 war leaders vs 3 minis - 45+ creeps vs 22 freeps). How do I stay alive with the ballad requirements / the bubble reduction/ and a 10 minute cool-down. So if I run in Harmony, I dont do bursty damage, but do get to heal my group and myself and still have 15 to 20 seconds before I cast anything like an effective activity.

Fighting in the keep is even worse: I have to break line of sight to get out of BA and spider targeting constantly. That either doesn't drop combat without a distance component (example, I have to run to the stairs from the door to drop out of combat at TR) or drops immediately as soon as the creep I'm targeting dies. Thats if I fight from the same floor as the attack. If I attack from the overhangs (balconies etc.) either by the cauldrons or in the flag room, I drop in and out of combat again as I have a target.

When fighting with a group/raid, getting into and out of combat is even more problematic. While I can stay in combat better as I inherit the state from the raid members, I cant depend on that. Take the above given TR fights: I could drop out of fighting immediately on diving into the flag room. Great for rezing but terrible for ballad maintenance.

All this being said, can we get the following information clearly from you:

1. How do minstrels work in the Moors?
2. How long does the minor ballads tail last?
3. Do we have any alternative to Cry of the Chorus when we get jumped to unlock our skills?
4. If you have a warg targeted and do a Cry of the Chorus, does all the damage of the ballads get applied to the warg? (Sorry I meant to mention this earlier... Im trying to understand the survivability in the moors and came up with this question. )

Teldra

[Namesse]

How do I stay alive with the ballad requirements / the bubble reduction/ and a 10 minute cool-down.

You sacrifice your ballads. They're on a shared, 1 second CD so, when pressed, you can't wait 3 seconds to be fully buffed before starting to heal or dps or cast anthems, so you'll run with lowered healing and/or increased power costs (it's more accurate to say baseline healing and power costs) until you have time to cast the ballads and the anthems.

Your bubble isn't going to save you, providing only 1980 in protection for a maximum of 30 seconds.

On the bright side, trait to make BC uninterruptable by damage and focus healing on yourself

[UwS-Harledir]

/facepalm

I have no idea what brought Turbine Devs to the idea to need to rework a class, the minstrel, to such an extent that it is completely and utterly a new class.

Personally i find it frustrating.

Minstrels have had a couple of skill reworks - new icons - great fun and needed to relearn it all again. And now AGAIN.

In my humble opinion - the minstrel class was absolutely fine as it was.

At the moment most of my minstrel friends ingame are fuming at these changes. We of course will have to see what it brings ingame.
I have decided for myself (and i know a few that are thinking the same) - shelf the minstrel and be done with it. Or delete the minstrel and start from level 1.

This Turbine must be the most stupid stunt you have pulled off.

[Teldra]

You sacrifice your ballads. They're on a shared, 1 second CD so, when pressed, you can't wait 3 seconds to be fully buffed before starting to heal or dps or cast anthems, so you'll run with lowered healing and/or increased power costs (it's more accurate to say baseline healing and power costs) until you have time to cast the ballads and the anthems.

Your bubble isn't going to save you, providing only 1980 in protection for a maximum of 30 seconds.

On the bright side, trait to make BC uninterruptable by damage and focus healing on yourself

So with all 7+ pages of dev diary Orion fails to mention that we lose: ballads, anthems, codas, power management and healing efficiency in the Moors? That our bubble is 25% as effective as before and 5% as effective as the creep bubble? I also notice that he doesn't mention our improved rez which we still dont know will work in raid or solo... I have test that.

Teldra

[LeRaginAsian]

1. How do minstrels work in the Moors?
2. How long does the minor ballads tail last?
3. Do we have any alternative to Cry of the Chorus when we get jumped to unlock our skills?
4. If you have a warg targeted and do a Cry of the Chorus, does all the damage of the ballads get applied to the warg? (Sorry I meant to mention this earlier... Im trying to understand the survivability in the moors and came up with this question. )

1. Tons more burst damage, slightly less ballad buff survivability
2. 9 seconds
3. If by skills you're referring to the anthems, no. But with the ballads on separate 1s cd's, it takes roughly 1.5s to hit a minor-perfect-minor combo and unlock them (assuming the anthems themselves aren't on cd)
4. No

I think you're overestimating the value of the ballad damage and their in-combat buffs and underestimating the value of crys and the coda. Remember, skills formerly known as Anthem of the Wizards/Free Peoples are now detatched from the ballad tier system, usable on the move, and recategorized as Crys. If you get jumped and survive, traited 5 red it takes seconds to bubble (1 min cd), slow (30 s cd), and speed buff (30s cd) and get enough range to start unloading.

Mini burst damage is massive with RoI. My current dps rotation on regular mobs is TEoB -> minor -> perfect -> minor -> Anthem of War -> CoO -> CtF -> piercing -> CotSA -> Cry of the Wizards -> Cry of the Free Peoples -> CoO -> CtF -> Coda of Fury. If they somehow survived that, a few more ballads/calls does the trick, but in a pinch popping CoC -> Anthem of War -> Coda of Fury is a quick way to knock off another 1k morale (non-crit).

[revoked]

As of the previous beta version (haven't seen it used since the latest update) AoE rez works just like AoE dread removal -- anyone in range, even in different fellowships. Worked great in 24-man Drailoch attempts.

[Teldra]

1. Tons more burst damage, slightly less ballad buff survivability
2. 9 seconds
3. If by skills you're referring to the anthems, no. But with the ballads on separate 1s cd's, it takes roughly 1.5s to hit a minor-perfect-minor combo and unlock them (assuming the anthems themselves aren't on cd)
4. No

I think you're overestimating the value of the ballad damage and their in-combat buffs and underestimating the value of crys and the coda. Remember, skills formerly known as Anthem of the Wizards/Free Peoples are now detatched from the ballad tier system, usable on the move, and recategorized as Crys. If you get jumped and survive, traited 5 red it takes seconds to bubble (1 min cd), slow (30 s cd), and speed buff (30s cd) and get enough range to start unloading.

Mini burst damage is massive with RoI. My current dps rotation on regular mobs is TEoB -> minor -> perfect -> minor -> Anthem of War -> CoO -> CtF -> piercing -> CotSA -> Cry of the Wizards -> Cry of the Free Peoples -> CoO -> CtF -> Coda of Fury. If they somehow survived that, a few more ballads/calls does the trick, but in a pinch popping CoC -> Anthem of War -> Coda of Fury is a quick way to knock off another 1k morale (non-crit).

Hmm. That makes me feel a bit better. Did you try to heal in raid in the Moors. I have enough trouble staying alive in the Moors. It will be interesting to see what a 1v1 looks like. 9 seconds seems to be better than 1.5 seconds that I saw on another post. A legacy that extends the duration of ballads might be useful to consider.

My normal rotation is Piercing -> TEoB -> CoO -> ballads etc until the cooldowns end. I prefer the 5 sec stun and let the tanks catch the creep. Now I will have to reset my rotation in the Moors. I hope I can keep using the ballads on the run.

Teldra

[Teldra]

As of the previous beta version (haven't seen it used since the latest update) AoE rez works just like AoE dread removal -- anyone in range, even in different fellowships. Worked great in 24-man Drailoch attempts.

So this is equivalent to the WL rez for 6 within range?

(BTW, off topic, do you know if finesse doesnt work in the Moors? I notice our Moors armor has no finesse value.)

Teldra

[bastiat1]

The major LI legacy adds up to 10s to duration. That's 30/5 for those of you keeping score and lets you keep four anthems up constantly....I foresee 4 yellow/3 blue becoming a very popular build.

If you are at 30s duration and 5s cooldown you should be able to keep 6 up full time after the first 30 seconds + time for ballad tiering. You can actually get to a 35s duration with the new Mins set. And as you note, you can keep one Anthem up permanently anyway. So it should be manageable to keep up all the Anthems if you build for it. Whether you can heal effectively at the same time will be the bigger question.

And I agree 4y / 3b looks pretty beast mode based on the trait-line bonuses. I'm not crazy about the individual blue traits so might even consider going back to a 5/2 build with dual tales since that's the only way to get the bigger group armour bonus.

[LeRaginAsian]

Hmm. That makes me feel a bit better. Did you try to heal in raid in the Moors. I have enough trouble staying alive in the Moors. It will be interesting to see what a 1v1 looks like. 9 seconds seems to be better than 1.5 seconds that I saw on another post. A legacy that extends the duration of ballads might be useful to consider.

My normal rotation is Piercing -> TEoB -> CoO -> ballads etc until the cooldowns end. I prefer the 5 sec stun and let the tanks catch the creep. Now I will have to reset my rotation in the Moors. I hope I can keep using the ballads on the run.

I haven't, I generally don't heal in the moors because I get sick of doing it in instances. I consider it my mini's "me" time. That extended expiration duration legacy sounds like a nice idea for a book legacy.

Remember that War-Speech heals aren't nerfed anymore, they're just restricted to self-heals, so hitting Chord of Salvation on the run is much more viable than it used to be. In that same vein, there is no tail effect to War-Speech anymore so dropping it to heal your fellows is as easy as it used to be before they added that effect.

(BTW, off topic, do you know if finesse doesnt work in the Moors? I notice our Moors armor has no finesse value.)

The level 75 set does. Plenty on the head, chest, and gloves.

If you are at 30s duration and 5s cooldown you should be able to keep 6 up full time after the first 30 seconds + time for ballad tiering. You can actually get to a 35s duration with the new Mins set. And as you note, you can keep one Anthem up permanently anyway. So it should be manageable to keep up all the Anthems if you build for it. Whether you can heal effectively at the same time will be the bigger question.

On paper you should be able to, but in practice, executing each one takes half a second so they eat away at the duration. If you're strictly focusing on keeping your anthems up, there's a 2 second window where one will expire before the cd is up. Totally forgot about the new set bonus. We don't get new endgame armor free in the beta so I can't quite take advantage of that, but obviously it will make keeping all 6 anthems constant a possibility.

Healing in the 5 second windows should be doable. No more ballad tiering for each anthem's benefits, so as long as you don't use a coda, the first three ballads you fire off will keep the anthems unlocked until you're out of combat. Of course, it's going to be hard to resist occasionally firing off a coda that gives you a self-HoT, self-PoT, aoe heal that has a good chance to crit heal and generates 0 threat. The noble cause herald's hammer group heals are nice too.

[bastiat1]

Can someone comment on the size of the Gift of the Hammerhand bubble and what it costs to cast? I'm not sure if it is worth using, but need real numbers please.

[elendurfarseeker]

I'm completely baffled by these changes. I'm super causal so I literally have no idea what this means to the play of my character. So let me ask some stupid questions:

Do I have more or less buttons on my skill bar?
Am I clicking on buttons more frequently?
Do I have to watch which buffs are active more closely? Right now it's clear which 'tier' or whatever is available because the buttons are greyed out.

I guess I'm asking is this now a more 'advanced' class, because I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Not sure about the medium armor, which I do have equipped. Should minstrels even be having a shield at this point?

Also, I'm against the term "dissonance". Dissonance/discord is a weapon of the Enemy.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I recommend wearing whatever medium armor set you use while dps-ing so it will be usable while leveling.

Actually, I'm thinking of my level 24 Minnie for whom I already crafted full gear till 58, I'll be damned angry if all that goes to waste, especially the flakes etc. I used to make it .. she can't wear umpteen items per slot, can she.

[jodokast4ever]

It's really a change that no one asked for, either we'll adapt or we'll sit and let the RKs heal, but my thoughts so far:

Minstrel is now an advanced class, be sure to update the description on the intro screen.

That, right there! It really is now an advanced class. The point to games for me was to be social and hang out with friends. I like spamming BC the whole fight, with little to stress over. I'd heal, interact with the family, heck, even get on the phone sometimes while making sure everyone stayed alive.

Now (and yes, I have played Minstrel 3.0), I really have to pay attention to what I'm doing. In return, this means more stress, less fun.

What do I do then - well, I'd go play Creeps, but they are the same old after 4 years (with minor updates here and there).

I'll go play one of the competitor's where if I need to concentrate on what I'm doing, may as well be with something fresh. Not Enedwaith 2.0 with some straw huts thrown in.

Oh yes, I'm sure the flamers will come saying don't let the door hit you on the way out, but I am really (or was really) passionate about the Minstrel. It's my only level 65 toon (I'm not an alt-o-holic nor do I want to be) and I've take my minstrel everywhere. I really enjoyed him, but with this third unneeded revision, I just don't like it and have no urge to play it.

At least in games like SWG, they would give you free rerolls. I'd like that for here because I no longer want to play a minstrel... if I wanted an advanced class - I would have choosen one.

[LeRaginAsian]

Can someone comment on the size of the Gift of the Hammerhand bubble and what it costs to cast? I'm not sure if it is worth using, but need real numbers please.

At level 75, I get a bubble with 1980 morale. It costs 5% of your power and lasts 30s, but if the bubble expires you get the power back. It has a 1 min cd.

Do I have more or less buttons on my skill bar?
Am I clicking on buttons more frequently?
Do I have to watch which buffs are active more closely? Right now it's clear which 'tier' or whatever is available because the buttons are greyed out.

I guess I'm asking is this now a more 'advanced' class, because I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Not sure about the medium armor, which I do have equipped. Should minstrels even be having a shield at this point?

Less buttons.
If you're healing, less clicking of ballads unless you choose to utilize your Coda heal.
Less watching of buffs. The anthems are all on the same cooldown and are the primary source of your group buffs. When the cooldown's up, you know to reapply the anthem or choose a different one that might suit the situation better.

It may read as a more advanced class, but I don't get that impression at all in practice.

Losing medium armor might seem like you're taking a hit, but what the dev diary neglected to mention is the trait is going to add 20% armor from all sources. This includes the armor tales, your shield, cloak, and dp buffs. I haven't done the math, but I imagine it evens out, if not overtakes it. Do remember that the number is only in the current build of beta, so there's a chance it will change. Don't be mad at me!

Actually, I'm thinking of my level 24 Minnie for whom I already crafted full gear till 58, I'll be damned angry if all that goes to waste, especially the flakes etc. I used to make it .. she can't wear umpteen items per slot, can she.

Ah, that is a tough break. My only advice would be to level her as far as you can now. The good news is once you pass level 58, you won't miss any of that armor, I promise.

That, right there! It really is now an advanced class. The point to games for me was to be social and hang out with friends. I like spamming BC the whole fight, with little to stress over. I'd heal, interact with the family, heck, even get on the phone sometimes while making sure everyone stayed alive.

Now (and yes, I have played Minstrel 3.0), I really have to pay attention to what I'm doing. In return, this means more stress, less fun.

Hm, I'm not sure I agree. You can easily throw up Major Ballad 3x and spam BC all day long if you want to. Traited 4 blue you can even throw in Anthem of Compassion for -healing threat and never have to worry about it again.

To me, the changes allow advanced players to take their healing and buffing to new heights more than it prohibits casual players from doing what they were already used to.

Sounds like you're having more fun outside the game anyway. Perhaps this mmo isn't for you?

[GregJL]

The icons have changed even more. Feedback in beta made mention that they were all too alike. We have adjusted them to be G-clef (major), C-clef (perfect) and Treble/F-clef (minor) to make the appearances more distinguishable.

Tsk, tsk.

G-clefs are treble and French violin. French violin is no longer in use
F-clefs are bass, baritone, and sub-bass. Sub-bass is no longer in use.
C-clefs are alto, tenor, baritone, mezzo-soprano and soprano.

[Cerridwen]

I'm sensing a huge push to make people use trait lines. I have never traited according to the line bonuses but according to the individual traits.

Much like Orion's changes to the Minstrels (who received blanket reductions in all heals) the class did not truly suffer, because of the bonuses in the traitlines and skill plays.

Reducing our heals to force us to use certain trait lines and skills if we want to do effective healing doesn't seem right. Obviously, I have to wait until RoI to actually know how my Mins (and others) will play, but reading everything (all the dev diaries) has me so extremely nervous; it's almost like we are getting a new game rather than an expansion.

[jodokast4ever]

Hm, I'm not sure I agree. You can easily throw up Major Ballad 3x and spam BC all day long if you want to. Traited 4 blue you can even throw in Anthem of Compassion for -healing threat and never have to worry about it again.

If that's true, then all will be well.

Sometimes I don't mind have to pay attention to all the little dumb icons under names, but most of the time I just want to make sure everyone's morale is good and not stress over what button needs to happen in which order or else ME will collapse in on itself, lol

[Ronigard]

I'll try again: if I can hit as hard as I currently can, and can heal myself without penalty, I can burn through everything with ease. What's the catch?

[GrandCru]

Song of the Hammerhand : 2k Shield gone in seconds.
What's the point of 30 sec. duration then?

[Bradegor]

At level 75, I get a bubble with 1980 morale. It costs 5% of your power and lasts 30s, but if the bubble expires you get the power back. It has a 1 min cd.

Humm morale bubbles are nice. Looks like RKs aren´t the only ones getting it. Now, let´s hope for minstrels not being the only healers with tons of utility skills, in-combat rez (a true one), great point healing and dread removal...

[Larthias]

The war-speech healing made me really happy, looks like soloing will be much easier now.

I hope it doesn't take much to get used to the new ballad/anthem/coda system though.

[LeRaginAsian]

If that's true, then all will be well.

Sometimes I don't mind have to pay attention to all the little dumb icons under names, but most of the time I just want to make sure everyone's morale is good and not stress over what button needs to happen in which order or else ME will collapse in on itself, lol

It's very true. With no stance (neutral/melody), Major Ballad does a little aoe heal so there's not even a need to target the mob anymore in group situations. Stack up the +healing buffs, throw up the Anthem of Compassion and you can BC all fight long without touching another skill. Of course, I recommend throwing in the occasional Anthem of Third Age to get +10% outgoing healing and -25% skill inductions and make the most out each BC, but that's just me.

I'll try again: if I can hit as hard as I currently can, and can heal myself without penalty, I can burn through everything with ease. What's the catch?

Good question. More appropriate one might be, is there a catch?

You still need power to do these things. That's about it.

Song of the Hammerhand : 2k Shield gone in seconds.
What's the point of 30 sec. duration then?

To give you a chance to kite the baddies off without losing the power, I imagine.

I hope it doesn't take much to get used to the new ballad/anthem/coda system though.

I admit, reading about the changes early on are what kept me from testing out my mini, but when the dev diary came out yesterday, I decided to give it a go. Once you figure out which new icons are which, it's very easy to pick up and run with.

[Cloudie-wan]

I'm liking the changes a lot, even though I'll still miss the older style of play. Also, I vote NO on Dissonance.

I'll try again: if I can hit as hard as I currently can, and can heal myself without penalty, I can burn through everything with ease. What's the catch?

The catch is that healing was reduced by 20% +. In your Warrior-skald DPS build with 3 Minor Ballads up to get your maximum DPS, and possibly even a DPS-oriented book without any of the heal modifiers, your heals will only be hitting for a little over 1k. You have Raise My Spirit, Bolster My Courage, Chord of My Salvation, and Soliloquy of My Spirit available to you, but they will only heal for base amounts, which again, was nerfed. There is also a power issue. So, while there is no longer a War-speech "penalty" you still won't be able to heal yourself as well as you would otherwise be able to with other traits in. (And btw, soloing in WoR traits for maximum self-healing would be ridiculous, as your damage would be terrible, even if you entered War-speech.)