How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

[Kerin_Eldar]

but you still feel as if your character has progressed rather than just staying the same.

So it's a "King's new clothes" illusion, "feel good" mechanic, I see.

[DelgonTheWise]

So it's a "King's new clothes" illusion, "feel good" mechanic, I see.

Aren't most advancements an illusion? You hit harder as you level, the mobs get more morale/mitigation. Healers heal better, mobs hit harder. etc. But still, the perception of advancement is desirable...

[heatherjewel]

Anyone who has played MMOs where fighting higher level monsters was actually difficult can think of it like this....it helps you hit stuff/ How many MMOs are there where you fight some a coupe levels above you and you simply cant hit it? And it hits you every single time. Thats pretty much what it does from the looks of it. I doubt it follows that simple a mechanic is this game since missing stuff at levels higher than you is (was) not a major concern, although red mobs do avoid a lot of attacks in this game also. But hitting something makes it a lot easier to kill it. If youre missing half the time then obviously it will take twice as long to kill it.

[Laic]

So, if im getting it right after reading a bit in the forum and this post, finesse is just a stat that could be compared to the "- X Penetrate Target Resistance" we see now in tactical classes in the way it works, just that finesse works on B/P/E?

[Kerin_Eldar]

Anyone who has played MMOs where fighting higher level monsters was actually difficult can think of it like this....it helps you hit stuff.

Amazingly, this game has lasted 4 1/2 years with the need for a '+ To Hot' stat, so far Turbine have failed to explain why its' needed now.

Also, in many games AGI is used to boost 'to hit', we already have AGI and classes that will need Finesse already need AGI, so Turbine could have made THAT modify this, they didn't need to invent yet another stat people will need to grind gear for.

[Aloro]

So, if im getting it right after reading a bit in the forum and this post, finesse is just a stat that could be compared to the "- X Penetrate Target Resistance" we see now in tactical classes in the way it works, just that finesse works on B/P/E?

Correct. It's also like the Hunter's Breach-finder bow chants.

[ElanMorinTedroni]

Without Radiance you were crippled in raid fights. The gloom/dread would make you as ineffective as a lump on a log. An entire raid could wipe if a key player didn't have enough radiance.

Without finesse you will have a harder time hitting more powerful mobs. It will still be possible to hit them, it'll just be a whole lot easier with finesse. The raid will have to work harder to make up for your lessened dps, but it's not something that'll make the fight impossible.

As to the "we've never needed a to-hit stat before"... Agility was our to-hit stat. And to-crit stat. And to-evade. And to-parry. That's a lot to derrive from one stat. And if we're simplifying other things with RoI (resistances), we gotta have something to balance it out so it isn't too simple.

[ThePhobos]

Without Radiance you were crippled in raid fights. The gloom/dread would make you as ineffective as a lump on a log. An entire raid could wipe if a key player didn't have enough radiance.

Without finesse you will have a harder time hitting more powerful mobs. It will still be possible to hit them, it'll just be a whole lot easier with finesse. The raid will have to work harder to make up for your lessened dps, but it's not something that'll make the fight impossible.

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

[Jeffor]

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

If someone has never played another MMO such as Rift that has a mechanic like this already let me tell you, it is a gating system and might as well be radiance 2.0 dumbed down. I played Rift and if you didn't have enough points into the equivalent "finesse" stats over there you wouldn't be taken on instances or raids. So what did you have to do? You had to go grinding out t1 instances so you could move on when you finally got the better gear.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

This is getting silly and let me show you why:

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough might/agility you will have a really hard time hitting things for very much damage. If you don't hit things hard enough you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough power you will have a really hard time hitting things because you'll be out of power too soon. If you don't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage on things.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough morale you will have a really hard time hitting things because you will be dead. If you are dead and can't hit things you will fail. You may as well be cowering in the corner with dread at that point if you're not able to do much damage (because you're dead).

You can make the same argument for any stat when it comes to one of the most difficult t2 raid challenges in the game.

[ashesofatrocity]

Being a hero of middle earth I find it hard to believe that you will be frequently missing when you attack your enemy.

[Kheld_GB]

Companys dont pay Devs for the time to create a new game mechanic on a whim.

There is a reason for Finesse, it will be important, it will inconvieniance and/or pee a lot of people off.

We just dont know the full details yet.

[Reniannen]

Being a hero of middle earth I find it hard to believe that you will be frequently missing when you attack your enemy.

Being a big bad of Middle-earth I find it hard to believe I would get hit very often.

[Aloro]

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike.

Well, I'd be interested in hearing those. You didn't present any of them.

There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

Well, you'd be missing the point then.

Radiance was a binary/digital gating system. All or nothing, on or off, one or zero. You either had enough Radiance, or you cowered uselessly. There was no in-between, no grey area.

ALL OTHER STATS are analog gating systems. That includes Finesse, Morale, Power, ICPR, your primary attack stat, etc. They're spectra that run from none to all, and there's no predetermined spot where you have "enough". More is better, and it's up to the player to decide how much they want. The game mechanics don't tell you, "OK, you have enough Morale to defeat this boss." That is, again, completely different from how Radiance worked.

Radiance was a hard gate. If you didn't have enough, you couldn't possibly succeed.

ALL OTHER STATS are soft gates. If you are a bit low on them, you can still squeak by with luck and skill. Finesse is no different.

Let's look at Wound wing in OD, t2 challenge. That's a speed run. You are timed. If you're not killing things quickly you will fail. If you don't have enough finesse you will have a really hard time hitting things.

Replace "Finesse" above with "Might" and it reads exactly the same. That's indicative of the underlying fact; they're similar stats.

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

Not at all. "Equally useless" is completely inaccurate there. Without enough Radiance, you could not do anything. Anything at all. You couldn't swing and miss. You couldn't fire off skills. You couldn't move around. Without enough Finesse, you'll miss more often.

These two things are not - remotely - the same.

[danno8]

I understand how radiance and finesse appear on the surface different but I can think of a dozen ways that they're a lot alike. There's been the argument in this thread that a lack of finesse doesn't make you useless in a fight like radiance did; I would argue that that is totally inaccurate.

There are people who have done the raids, who have tested the game on beta and who have stated that finesse is NOT the crippling mechanism that radiance was and was not a huge factor in the raids. It makes you more or less effective.

Unless you have done these things too, you frankly have no leg to stand on.

[Malephor]

Mark my words: you WILL be hearing people adding into their LFG's "Must have XYZ amount of finesse". Maybe you don't cower the way you would with dread/radiance but without the right amount of finesse you will be equally useless in a raid/instance.

What evidence do you have to support this? The NDA was lifted. We have access to the knowledge of beta players. What evidence in there supports your claim?

[Lohi]

It seems that you will need a certain number to raid with. This sounds like radiance to me.

The difference is that you won't need a specific amount of finesse for a raid. You'll just miss or be resisted more often. Finesse seems like it won't be a big requirement for healers in any case. Plus finesse will help you in day to day adventuring. I assume you will be able to get finesse from perfectly normal jewelry and gear as well. It just does not sound at all like radiance.

Actually I was never opposed to the idea of radiance and I don't know why people got worked up over that. If you did not raid you did not need radiance (and I don't raid so I'm in that camp). If you did raid then getting geared up is a perfectly normal part of raiding, and having to run some 6 person instances is not considered an onerous task by raiders.

There's always a raid gate. Even if it's not formalized in game rules the other raiders won't invite you if you don't pass the gear check.

The real issue with the Moria gear was not the radiance but that it was essentially overpowered compared to the next best gear and so everyone wanted it, radiance or not.

[Lohi]

I can't speak for other classes, but I'd bet a properly built and played hunter wearing Garb of the Woods and wielding Tongannel's Joy would have stacked up rather well in the Rift. Certainly better than anyone actually using the Rift bow.

That's because in order to get Rift gear you had to go into the Rift and adventure. You couldn't put the gate keys on the other side of the gate, so clearly Rift gear was not a requirement to run the Rift.

[Tennent]

...completed "the dungeons of grindina" to do "the tower of phat loot"...

This made me spit coffee all over my keyboard +rep

I can sum finesse up and this whole thread in three words.

'Adapt or Die'

simples

[Jadzi]

I assume you will be able to get finesse from perfectly normal jewelry and gear as well. It just does not sound at all like radiance.

You will. In fact, some examples of things can get finesse from:

- Landscape quest reward gear
- Treasure drop gear (armor -and- jewelry)
- Crafted gear
- Raid gear
- At least one Hunter skill
- A certain crafted RK chisel
- Scrolls of (temporary) Finesse from the store (85 TP, lasts for 90 minutes)

[Enderson]

so dose this mean we can put this myth to rest? everyone knows its not radiance? All the dooms dayrs can start freaking out about something else?

[Leonide]

I can sum finesse up and this whole thread in three words.

'Adapt or Die'

simples

O rly?
Nobody in this thread showed how finesse is different from, lets say, tactical offense. Seriously. It's the same thing. They consolidate a lot of stats. So they added one stat for b/p/e. Not a big deal.

I never heard ''10/12 BG, you must have 11.5k tactical offense or ####''

Lets say it AGAIN: If you are under the finesse gate, you cower. Plain and simple; If you lack some tact/melee/range off, you may do 95-98% of the DPS of the top geared DPSers. I see a BIG difference. Finesse will work the same way.

[Aloro]

You will. In fact, some examples of things can get finesse from:- A certain crafted RK chisel

Thanks once again, Jadzi.

This makes it apparent just how close the connection is between penetration on chisels and Finesse. They've literally replaced the former with the latter there.

[Aloro]

Lets say it AGAIN: If you are under the finesse gate, you cower.

I think you meant to say, "If you were under the Radiance gate, you cowered."

[dietlbomb]

Thanks once again, Jadzi.

This makes it apparent just how close the connection is between penetration on chisels and Finesse. They've literally replaced the former with the latter there.

You've solved the mystery of Finesse. They just wanted people to be able to describe their stats without getting censored in the chat window.

[Aloro]

You've solved the mystery of Finesse. They just wanted people to be able to describe their stats without getting censored in the chat window.

Lol! I wonder if they'll rename the Hunter skill to "Finesse Shot".