How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

[Raptor38]

I haven't used a warden under finesse, so I don't know how it works. This needs to be checked. If it reduces our B/P/E like we think it does then wardens are pretty much finished. They'll be useless as tanks. Anybody that has a warden on BR should see if they can check this out and see what sort of hard numbers we can get.

[Arathem]

I haven't used a warden under finesse, so I don't know how it works. This needs to be checked. If it reduces our B/P/E like we think it does then wardens are pretty much finished. They'll be useless as tanks. Anybody that has a warden on BR should see if they can check this out and see what sort of hard numbers we can get.

Your Finess rating reduces your opponents B/P/E chance.

Your opponents Finess rating reduces your B/P/E chance.

[socom33]

We who play Wardens and Guardians realize that you can gain about 12-15% more BPE on a Warden over a Guard due to Dance of War and Defensive Strike/Block Proc/Block Traits and have Leeches or Self Heals and that Guardians lose EXACTLY the same amount of avoidance that you do due to finesse. It doesn't hurt a Warden any more than it hurts a Guardian.

EDIT: To put it in perspective, in order to take out 25% avoidance a Mob would need ~9000 Finesse, and that's at level 65. Even then if a Warden had 60% avoidance he would be back where he is now in terms of his avoidance against Raid bosses. For anyone who has tested how much mitigation raid mobs have (I think its like 20% difference from the tooltip tops) that's only about 3500 Melee/Range/Tact Defense and another 3500 Non-Common and Common Defense. I doubt the Developers are going to add ~9000 Finesse to a mob.

[Tamiya]

It has been said that the Minstrel Raid set is made for healing, when healing you're not hitting the mobs, and as such you don't care about penetrating their b/p/e.

Again: Your own Finesse has no bearing on your own b/p/e, or the mob's Finesse, so it only matters when you're hitting things yourself.

This is wrong because the Minstrel do need to hit enemies, both before and after ROI. The only people who don't think it matters are BC spammers.

Notably, all of corruption removals, damaging echoes, CCs, and ROI's codas require hitting the enemies. The Minstrel has every need to penetrate BPE and resists as well.

[Artanisul]

This is wrong because the Minstrel do need to hit enemies, both before and after ROI. The only people who don't think it matters are BC spammers.

Notably, all of corruption removals, damaging echoes, CCs, and ROI's codas require hitting the enemies. The Minstrel has every need to penetrate BPE and resists as well.

I slogged through 4 pages at 50 posts a page just to read what I was going to say at the end...GRRR

Everyone must be able to hit/not be resisted. It is all equal.

Also, finesse is not like every other stat, Morale is/has been on every character from the beginning, same with Might, Vit, etc. Finesse is ANOTHER STAT, that is going to be useful primarily in the Raids, and totally avoidable in the normal questing we do. So...its a gate. Just like many have been saying. Calling it the same as every other stat is just denial.

Just to make sure it is understood. I don't disagree with Finesse being here. I am glad we have something to aspire to.

[Arness]

It has been said that the Minstrel Raid set is made for healing, when healing you're not hitting the mobs, and as such you don't care about penetrating their b/p/e.

Again: Your own Finesse has no bearing on your own b/p/e, or the mob's Finesse, so it only matters when you're hitting things yourself.

So my question still stands for a soloing minstrel, a minstrel out doing daily quests.

[cossieuk]

So my question still stands for a soloing minstrel, a minstrel out doing daily quests.

There is finesse on jewellery.

[Reniannen]

So my question still stands for a soloing minstrel, a minstrel out doing daily quests.

You don't need finesse for soloing, landscape mobs have "reasonable" avoidances.

[Jadzi]

Just to note - the 75 Minstrel raid set might have no finesse, but the 75 Minstrel PvMP set does. As do certain crafted armor pieces, and jewelry.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

Also, finesse is not like every other stat, Morale is/has been on every character from the beginning, same with Might, Vit, etc. Finesse is ANOTHER STAT, that is going to be useful primarily in the Raids, and totally avoidable in the normal questing we do. So...its a gate. Just like many have been saying. Calling it the same as every other stat is just denial.

Going by that extremely flawed logic, do you think that melee/ranged/tactical/critical defences have also been gates? Since they do not come on characters from the beginning and are completely avoidable in normal questing, but are quite valuable in raids?

I really doubt that. Come up with proper arguments when trying to prove that finesse will be a gate. We already have stats that work very similarly to it. None of them became gates.

EDIT: Just to clarify, by "gate" I mean a hard gate like radiance. Almost every single stat is a soft gate when raiding.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

We who play Wardens and Guardians realize that you can gain about 12-15% more BPE on a Warden over a Guard due to Dance of War and Defensive Strike/Block Proc/Block Traits and have Leeches or Self Heals and that Guardians lose EXACTLY the same amount of avoidance that you do due to finesse. It doesn't hurt a Warden any more than it hurts a Guardian.

EDIT: To put it in perspective, in order to take out 25% avoidance a Mob would need ~9000 Finesse, and that's at level 65. Even then if a Warden had 60% avoidance he would be back where he is now in terms of his avoidance against Raid bosses. For anyone who has tested how much mitigation raid mobs have (I think its like 20% difference from the tooltip tops) that's only about 3500 Melee/Range/Tact Defense and another 3500 Non-Common and Common Defense. I doubt the Developers are going to add ~9000 Finesse to a mob.

I'd love for you to post a gambit rotation that keeps up every single +bpe gambit, while also keeping up a couple leeches and HoTs and adds in a straight threat. Ya, not gonna happen.

The change of finesse from removing by rating to removing by percentage hurts the warden much more, exactly BECAUSE wardens having to devote so much gambit-time and relics and traits and legacies to get the rating that high. Removing by percentage effectively makes the DR curve even worse, negating thousands of rating points at the top end while only negating hundreds of rating points at the low end.

Imagine if finesse also removed armor values on a DR scale, so light armor wasn't effected at all, medium armor had a somewhat noticable change, but heavy armor was severely negated. And now suddenly Guards and Champs were having to worry about survival rather than threat. I seriously doubt I'd be hearing things like "but the system affects everybody equally on a sliding scale. It's not the Warden's fault that armor is how Guards and Champs survive while Wardens use BPE"

[Tamiya]

Just to note - the 75 Minstrel raid set might have no finesse, but the 75 Minstrel PvMP set does. As do certain crafted armor pieces, and jewelry.

And I was specifically saying that the Minstrel do need to hit things in raid, because healing isn't the only function the Minstrel performs. It's the only place Finesse has any real bearing anyway.

[Golledhel]

I'd love for you to post a gambit rotation that keeps up every single +bpe gambit, while also keeping up a couple leeches and HoTs and adds in a straight threat. Ya, not gonna happen.

The change of finesse from removing by rating to removing by percentage hurts the warden much more, exactly BECAUSE wardens having to devote so much gambit-time and relics and traits and legacies to get the rating that high. Removing by percentage effectively makes the DR curve even worse, negating thousands of rating points at the top end while only negating hundreds of rating points at the low end.

Imagine if finesse also removed armor values on a DR scale, so light armor wasn't effected at all, medium armor had a somewhat noticable change, but heavy armor was severely negated. And now suddenly Guards and Champs were having to worry about survival rather than threat. I seriously doubt I'd be hearing things like "but the system affects everybody equally on a sliding scale. It's not the Warden's fault that armor is how Guards and Champs survive while Wardens use BPE"

However Wardens aren't affected any more than Guardians are.

[Lohi]

Doesn't this severely weaken the use of stacking BPE? And...doesn't that hurt wardens far more than anyone else, given that stacking BPE is their primarily line of defense, especially come RoI?

This looks like finesse of the players applied to BPE of enemies. Do we think this is going to apply in reverse as well? Are the enemies going to be stacking huge amounts of finesse like the players are, doing their own gear grinds?

[Lohi]

You don't need finesse for soloing, landscape mobs have "reasonable" avoidances.

We hope, anyway. Remains to be seen.

[socom33]

I'd love for you to post a gambit rotation that keeps up every single +bpe gambit, while also keeping up a couple leeches and HoTs and adds in a straight threat. Ya, not gonna happen.

The change of finesse from removing by rating to removing by percentage hurts the warden much more, exactly BECAUSE wardens having to devote so much gambit-time and relics and traits and legacies to get the rating that high. Removing by percentage effectively makes the DR curve even worse, negating thousands of rating points at the top end while only negating hundreds of rating points at the low end.

Imagine if finesse also removed armor values on a DR scale, so light armor wasn't effected at all, medium armor had a somewhat noticable change, but heavy armor was severely negated. And now suddenly Guards and Champs were having to worry about survival rather than threat. I seriously doubt I'd be hearing things like "but the system affects everybody equally on a sliding scale. It's not the Warden's fault that armor is how Guards and Champs survive while Wardens use BPE"

I worded that very carefully, I did not say ALL defensive gambits, I only mentioned 3 and I said Leeches OR Hots, not both, its impractical to keep both up at once. Rotation: Shield Mastery, Dance of War, Defensive Strike, EoB/Restoration, Fierce Resolve/Resolution/Celebration of Skill, PB/Goad, PB/War Cry, Desolation/Conviction. Thats 8 skills on a 30s rotation which can be put in any order which put 3 defensive gambits up, has a high chance of triggering the shield bash proc, puts block and Evade at maximum possible level, and generates High AoE or ST threat (can't forget Dance of War is a good threat transfer).

Why would finesse not also suffer from diminished returns? Every other stat suffers from it. The higher a Mob's finesse the lower its %BPE reduction per point of finesse.

[duamarth]

We who play Wardens and Guardians realize that you can gain about 12-15% more BPE on a Warden over a Guard due to Dance of War and Defensive Strike/Block Proc/Block Traits and have Leeches or Self Heals and that Guardians lose EXACTLY the same amount of avoidance that you do due to finesse. It doesn't hurt a Warden any more than it hurts a Guardian.

Had you read this thread more thoroughly, or other threads, you would know your claims are simply not true, not the least because even if a raw -BPE% takes away the same amount from a guard as it does from a warden, the warden has more to lose given that they will be taking in the range of 20% more damage in the first place due to their lower mitigations. And HoTs or leaches cannot make up for that while tanking (e.g., your proposed rotation would go over 30s and it is highly unrealistic during tanking. You wouldn't hold aggro on anything).

The current status of finesse by all accounts would hurt a warden far more than a guard. Read this thread, for instance: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...mbers-shall-we
As well as this thread, particularly the explanations about half way down: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...re-than-guards
And for reference, check the SSs on this thread for guard BPE percentages compared with a warden's with all buffs active (not a feasible rotation while tanking): http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...58#post5661458
If you want to disagree, then disagree with the numbers and statistics people have posted here and elsewhere, don't just make unsubstantiated claims about what seems intuitive to you.

[socom33]

Had you read this thread more thoroughly, or other threads, you would know your claims are simply not true, not the least because even if a raw -BPE% takes away the same amount from a guard as it does from a warden, the warden has more to lose given that they will be taking in the range of 20% more damage in the first place due to their lower mitigations. And HoTs or leaches cannot make up for that while tanking (e.g., your proposed rotation would go over 30s and it is highly unrealistic during tanking. You wouldn't hold aggro on anything).

So I looked at a BPE build from misten's warden he was at about 57% I think, his guard was at about 47%, however his warden didn't have the Shield Bash block proc up for whatever reason, yet I notice on live that it is up about 85% of the time for me with the trait (25% chance and I use it at least 6 times every 20s). So the warden has about a 10-12% advantage in avoidance. When it comes to mitigation the guardian has a 20% advantage. Thats an 8-10% difference give or take a few percent from the same player trying to build for BPE. Leeches are getting a boost, and no one knows how much inc damage it will offset until the tweaks stop and people parse them in different situations. Given that HoTs currently offset at least 8% of damage taken (DB for example hits for about 4k every 4s, 2 HoTs heals about ~400 every 4s) I think wardens are going to be fine, just like guardians are going to be fine.

I made up that rotation on the spot based on my gambit building being limited to ~6-7 gambits every 30s or so while using 2 masteries (I don't use spear) and taking into account the use of battle mastery and the new masteries for Goad/Defensive strike/2 spear. So, yes, I don't know if its usable under 30s but based on what I've done on live it seems reasonable to be an ~30s rotation. Sure the skills will change but the core idea is Shield mastery every minute, Defensive Strike (mastery built), Dance of War, 1-2 Hots or leeches and 3-4 threat skills.

I'm still failing to see how Finesse will hurt Wardens more than Guardians, they both lose the same amount of defense and each has different mechanics to offset damage that actually hits them.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

I'm still failing to see how Finesse will hurt Wardens more than Guardians, they both lose the same amount of defense and each has different mechanics to offset damage that actually hits them.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

1) Finesse in general only attacks bpe, not armor.
2) With the new changes, it attacks high amounts of bpe rating more punishingly than lower amounts of bpe rating, and while it takes significant effort to tack on those last few thousand bpe rating points, they are removed in larger chunks at the high levels because 1% bpe is more of a rating point drop at high levels than low.
3) wardens depend on high bpe more than guards for survival.
4) Covering the loss with stacking morale and HoTs doesn't work because HoTs have a max level of HpS and thus don't scale with larger and larger amounts of incoming damage, unlike bpe.

If you still can't see beyond "they both lose x% of bpe", then I think this conversation has ended from my end.

[socom33]

I don't know how to make it any clearer.

1) Finesse in general only attacks bpe, not armor.
2) With the new changes, it attacks high amounts of bpe rating more punishingly than lower amounts of bpe rating, and while it takes significant effort to tack on those last few thousand bpe rating points, they are removed in larger chunks at the high levels because 1% bpe is more of a rating point drop at high levels than low.
3) wardens depend on high bpe more than guards for survival.
4) Covering the loss with stacking morale and HoTs doesn't work because HoTs have a max level of HpS and thus don't scale with larger and larger amounts of incoming damage, unlike bpe.

If you still can't see beyond "they both lose x% of bpe", then I think this conversation has ended from my end.

1) True, and not only in general, it only attacks BPE (It also attacks resistances but the full effect of finesse is applied to it aswell)
2) Take any of the DR formulas floating around, apply the diminishing returns to finesse to get the % and you'll see at any finesse at level 65 the difference b/w what is taken away from a Guard and what is taken away from a Warden is very small compared to how it was previously. (I'll use .0073 * rating ^ .9 (this is accurate to within 5% i.e. if the true percent is 15% the formula will give somewhere b/w 14.3 and 15.7) and 5000 finesse)

For example, say a Guardian at level 65 has 7000 Block, 5000 Parry and 2000 Evade. This is 21%, 15.5%, 6.8%
A Warden has 9000 Block, 4000 Parry, 6000 Evade. 26.4%, 12.7%, 18.4%

When subtracted via rating
Guard: 4500 Block, 3214 Parry, 1285 Evade. This is 14.2%, 10.5%, 4.6% Total % loss: 14%
Warden: 6632 Block, 2948 Parry, 4421 Evade. This is 20.1%, 9.7%, 14% Total % loss: 13.7%

When subtracted via % (% loss should be the same)
Guard: 13.2%, 9.9%, 4.6% Total% loss: 15.6%
Warden: 19%, 9.4%, 13.5% Total% loss: 15.6%

While both classes were doing better when calculated the rating way, the warden only lost an additional .3% total avoidance compared to the Guard when calculated the % way. The difference b/w the differences is TINY.
(The initial ratings in this example may not be true but as long as the Warden has more total avoidance the statement above should hold approximately true)

3) Yes but Guardians depend on BPE for threat more than Wardens, a Warden with aggro would still have more Survivability than a non-tank with aggro. (point is, both classes are affected in different ways)
4)But Hots DO mitigate large chunks of damage, just look at the Durin's Bane example from the post you quoted. Just saying they have a static level of healing doesn't change that the level of healing is quite large.

EDIT: Finesse is confirmed to have its own diminishing returns formula, identical to BPE's

[Golledhel]

Bit of math. Using Mist and Jadzi's numbers. Not exactly accurate due to rounding. But around the ball park. Graal said that Finesse uses the same rating-to-percent conversion as BPE.

Say the mob has 2937 Finesse. Which according to Jadzi's numbers is 9%

Mist's Warden fully buffed has:
Block 12489 25%+ <-- this is definitely over the cap.
Parry 8222 19.8%
Evade 8354 20%

Using the new formula:
Block ~23%
Parry 16.8%
Evade 17%

Using the old formula: ex for block: Block - (Finesse * (Block / (Block+Parry+Evade)))
Block 12489-(2937*(12489/29065)) 11227 ~25%
Parry 8222-(2937*(8222/29065)) 7391.2 ~18.6%
Evade 8354-(2937*(8354/29065)) 7509.9 ~18.8%


Now the Guardian, again using Mist's numbers.
Block 8404 20+5+ Rating puts block chance at a bit over 20%, plus 5% from block stance. Over 25%
Parry 6982 17.8%
Evade 2280 7.1-2 Rating puts block chance at 7.1, less 2% from the heavy shield. 5.1%

Using the new formula:
Block ~22%
Parry 14.8%
Evade 2.1%

Using the old formula:
Block 8404-(2937*(8404/17666)) 7006.5 ~17.8+5 or ~22.8%
Parry 6982-(2937*(6982/17666)) 5821.3 ~16%
Evade 2280-(2937*(2280/17666)) 1901 ~6-2 or ~4%


So the new formula means the Warden ends up losing, in this example, ~5.6% avoidance due to the change. While the Guardian ends up losing ~3.9

So yes, looking at it alone the change in the Formula means the Warden gets hit more, barely.

Do keep in mind that a Guardian needs to block to be able to use their reactives and thus build aggro. And that you cannot block or parry an attack that comes from behind.

[Lazlo_Hollyfeld]

So yes, looking at it alone the change in the Formula means the Warden gets hit more, barely.

Do keep in mind that a Guardian needs to block to be able to use their reactives and thus build aggro. And that you cannot block or parry an attack that comes from behind.

And in the future as we gain levels and the bosses get better stats, that difference will get worse and worse, and our bpe gambits will get less and less useful. Until they have to "fix" it. again. So yes, the new change is a slap in the face. I shouldn't be fine with it just because it won't be a punch in the gut until later.

And as for guards needing block reactives for threat... It seems to me that it is NOT the same kind of problem. Sure, guards need a baseline rate of blocks to trigger that nice little Ding, but that rate is already going way up in RoI, just from the upping of the cap. Perhaps i've missed something in a leaked patch note or dev diary, but is this not true? So where's the problem? Plus there's no system of reactive-nullifiers from the mobs once you get one of the more-frequent blocks. It looks to me like your blocks/minute is going up, not down, and there's nothing working against that.

Meanwhile, yes our bpe is going up from the current status quo, but so is the damage we'll be taking. And every step back in bpe is another nerf to the bpe tank. And now it's a LARGER step back than the non-bpe tank? what the heck is that?

[Lestache]

Bit of math. Using Mist and Jadzi's numbers. Not exactly accurate due to rounding. But around the ball park. Graal said that Finesse uses the same rating-to-percent conversion as BPE.

Say the mob has 2937 Finesse. Which according to Jadzi's numbers is 9%

Mist's Warden fully buffed has:
Block 12489 25%+ <-- this is definitely over the cap.
Parry 8222 19.8%
Evade 8354 20%

Using the new formula:
Block ~23%
Parry 16.8%
Evade 17%

Using the old formula: ex for block: Block - (Finesse * (Block / (Block+Parry+Evade)))
Block 12489-(2937*(12489/29065)) 11227 ~25%
Parry 8222-(2937*(8222/29065)) 7391.2 ~18.6%
Evade 8354-(2937*(8354/29065)) 7509.9 ~18.8%


Now the Guardian, again using Mist's numbers.
Block 8404 20+5+ Rating puts block chance at a bit over 20%, plus 5% from block stance. Over 25%
Parry 6982 17.8%
Evade 2280 7.1-2 Rating puts block chance at 7.1, less 2% from the heavy shield. 5.1%

Using the new formula:
Block ~22%
Parry 14.8%
Evade 2.1%

Using the old formula:
Block 8404-(2937*(8404/17666)) 7006.5 ~17.8+5 or ~22.8%
Parry 6982-(2937*(6982/17666)) 5821.3 ~16%
Evade 2280-(2937*(2280/17666)) 1901 ~6-2 or ~4%


So the new formula means the Warden ends up losing, in this example, ~5.6% avoidance due to the change. While the Guardian ends up losing ~3.9

So yes, looking at it alone the change in the Formula means the Warden gets hit more, barely.

Do keep in mind that a Guardian needs to block to be able to use their reactives and thus build aggro. And that you cannot block or parry an attack that comes from behind.

This would be a good topic for a new TV show that's coming out called "Numbers Never* Lie".

Taking your numbers (none of which account for partials, but keeping it simple is okay with me):

The Warden has 65% BPE, and loses about 8% of that.

The Guardian has 48% BPE, and loses about 9% of that.

The Warden loses about 12% of his total BPE (8/65).

The Guardian loses about 19% of his total BPE (9/48).

I realize that you're talking about the difference between the old formula and the new, but I thought I'd take the chance to play with the numbers and show how Boss Finesse can be demonstrated to have a larger effect on Guardians than Wardens, contrary to what some in this thread are touting.

[Zohal]

This would be a good topic for a new TV show that's coming out called "Numbers Never* Lie".

Taking your numbers (none of which account for partials, but keeping it simple is okay with me):

The Warden has 65% BPE, and loses about 8% of that.

The Guardian has 48% BPE, and loses about 9% of that.

The Warden loses about 12% of his total BPE (8/65).

The Guardian loses about 19% of his total BPE (9/48).

I realize that you're talking about the difference between the old formula and the new, but I thought I'd take the chance to play with the numbers and show how Boss Finesse can be demonstrated to have a larger effect on Guardians than Wardens, contrary to what some in this thread are touting.

Since we are talking about survivability, you obviously forgot to multiply with the mitigations. So your numbers are misleading.

To use your numbers and e.g. 50% mitigation for Warden and 65% for Guardian (not sure what the final-ish numbers will be), for each 1k hit the Warden takes - on average - an extra 1000*0.08*(1-0.50) = 40 damage and the Guardian takes 1000*0.09*(1-0.65) = 31.5 damage.

And to do the extra damage magic (leaving out some simple calculations):
Warden: 40/175 = 23%
Guardian: 31.5/182 = 17%

To see it clearly try imaging two tanks. One with 99% avoidance and 2% mitigation, and one with 2% avoidance and 99% mitigation. Losing 1 percentage point of avoidance would mean the first tank got his damage doubled and the second barely would notice it even though he lost half his avoidance in relative terms.

[LightOne]

A gating mechanic is healthy no matter how hard or soft. It separates those who dont care about their gear from those that do. I like fast and smooth runs and fineese lets me tell the difference between a hardcore elitist from a casual noob when choosing my group members. Thank you Turbine.