NDA has been lifted!

[Tarenius]

You don't find those two statement contradictory?

Not at all. Having to think a little bit (little being the operative word) does not make something hard. Harder, perhaps, but that's hardly saying much considering the difficulty of all the other solo content in the game (which raiders do too, by the way). Even the most simple group content (NCF/StH for example) is more complex than Death from Below.

[RicardoFurriel]

Where? I said I don't know them well enough to lead raids. Not that I haven't done them.

Which and when was the last raid you led in LOTRO?

I don't. I don't raid here often enough to know them well.

If you don't raid often, you don't know the raids well.

If you don't know something well, how can you possess knowledge or experience to back up assumptions made by you?

[Arbalister]

Not at all. Having to think a little bit (little being the operative word) does not make something hard. Harder, perhaps, but that's hardly saying much considering the difficulty of all the other solo content in the game (which raiders do too, by the way).

Okay, fair enough. But I still say that I'll hold it up as an example of what we should get more of.

[Tarenius]

Okay, fair enough. But I still say that I'll hold it up as an example of what we should get more of.

Definitely, I agree. Solo content that makes you think a bit is good for everyone, but I imagine it's very difficult to design so that it's doable by all classes (and not overly easy for some).

[The-Walrus]

I've been hoping to read something more about info from the beta for past who knows how many pages. Instead, few individuals who must have the last word are arguing about unsolvable nonsenses. We call that stuff gaychat over here (no offence if someone here is actually gay :P)

Can't you just stop or start a neverending flaming/trolling thread? I used to take part in such pointless debates in past but over time learned to simply close to forums instead.

[Morbeleg]

My arguments are that just because a Raid requires more players doesn't make it more difficult. And no one has disproved that. "But someone could make a mistake" doesn't make the content harder, and being able to do what a raid leader tells you to do, doesn't make you a better player. It makes you a drone.
Which *still* doesn't make the content hard.

Seen several people point out why successfully do a raid vs solo content is harder.
I will use some (hopefully reasonable)numbers and try to illustrate the difference.
First, let us use the idea that one mistake can be bad, or it can be fatal. For our purpose we will not bother with mere bad mistakes as they can be recovered from, we will consider only fatal ones (causes wipes).
Let us also assume the chance a character to do such a mistake is around 5% (very random number, and generally can be higher in raids actually, and also in some solo settings). Its about doing the wrong thing at the wrong time - and you have a 5% chance to be there and react wrong.

When a solo player is doing content, a fatal mistake will 5% of the time with the above number. 95% of the time, the encounter is defeated.

In a raid, there is 12 people all rolling against that same 5% RNG. being at the wrong place and responding the wrong way. Being generous, I say they do the right thing 19 out of 20 times, thats proably a bit optmisitic. Thats 12 5% rolls. Cumulative chance for a fatal mistake is 60%. Which leaves the raid at 40% successrate on the specific encounter.

This in a nutshell is why raids is a tad more difficult than solo. If you cant accept it as justification for that claim, come back with a better example that we can accept here.

Thats all for my numbers. Rest is some observations which your drone comment spurred me to write (thats trolling mate! )

I could add that to give challenge to raids, very short reaction time is added: in the raid OD, there is critical effects that is caused by getting an "eye" effect on you, which must be cured by the correct curative within 3 seconds or you will stun everyone around you in a reasonably large circle, and on Durins Bane its a huge fear dot that act on you along with several fire effects. Dont pot it fast enough = death. I just cant agree that people who manage this can be considered drones. Seriously, they are actually paying attetion
I havent seen that critical effects in solo content, although arguably the major fright debuff and cripple can ruin my day there.

There is a bunch of those gimmicks in a raid, and what makes them difficult to respond to is the number of actions you are dealing with in the raid (lots of mobs, you dps them or heal like mad and dont notice you are the target of effect X until its too late) and the difficulty of keeping a cool enough head to notice just everything that happens to you and the rest of the people, and react accordingly.
I find these "gimmicks" in raid content, but not in solo.

So its not about finding 11 other people who know what buttons to press, its about first finding 12 people to enter a frantic setting that all manage to do their job, look out for the random effect they must detect in 3 seconds and handle, and who paid attention to what the plan is and perform accordingly when deviations occur. And in a raid, there is always something that can pan out different than planned for: the offtank that had the duty of engaging mob X died just before mob X arrived, noone is ready to do anything with mob X because they have other tasks, and mob X runs to the first healer and eats him for breakfast. Death of the healer cause a chainreaction since the CC that engaged mob X does not get healing and the raid wipes. Raids are simply put, about making a plan, and adapt rather fast when something goes south or wipe.

And as for raids, and difficulty:
There is now a tier difference to difficulty. On tier 1 you can face mobs with mitigations and morale levels more in line with what you find in landscape. Bosses naturally have more morale and mitigations than trash.
On tier 2, the mobs have better mitigation and more morale, and for some reason seem to do better dps vs players.
Im sure you will notice a difference between T1 skirmishes and T3 skirmishes (T2 has too low of a difference to notice without parsing damage taken and given).

I've been hoping to read something more about info from the beta for past who knows how many pages. Instead, few individuals who must have the last word are arguing about unsolvable nonsenses. We call that stuff gaychat over here (no offence if someone here is actually gay :P)

Can't you just stop or start a neverending flaming/trolling thread? I used to take part in such pointless debates in past but over time learned to simply close to forums instead.

Sorry, I havent learned to do that yet!

[auximenes]

Death from below is not hard and never has been. Some under-geared (i.e. Hunters with 4k morale) and/or poorly played characters couldn't/can't do it, that doesn't mean it's hard. It's possibly the only piece of solo content in the game (maybe T3 skirms too) that makes some classes think about what they're doing instead of just smashing buttons.

I think you have an unrealistic concept of the average player's equipment quality. I don't think most players have their characters decked-out in full instance/raid gear. I also don't think most players find solo T1 and T2 Skirmishes needing only some face-rolls to complete them.

[The-Walrus]

I must say I managed to die in that quest bout 30% of the time on my very well equipped captain. On the other hand I am sure I could do it drunk playing with one hand if I had good champ.

[Ardineck]

I think raid content should be harder and more complex and the rewards should be different, but I don't think the solo alternative should take as long as it's going to take. The solo method should DEFINITELY not be more than 24 times as long, nor should it even be 12 times as long (even with a 24 man raid in this case). I will freely admit that getting 24 people together for a time and resource commitment of that magnitude is a skill and a feat in itself!

If the scale was to be weighted, I'd obviously prefer it to be weighted in the solo player's favor, since raid gear of such a high caliber carries the cache and status for players earning it through raids which a solo player, once getting and investing that amount of time, would be almost a greater accomplishment, but impossible to measure and prove. "I got this by skirmishing" would be more impressive to me than "I got this on my second ever run!"

It doesn't matter to me what they do at this point. It's "impossible" for me to get the gear without having comparable gear anyway. I can't rationalize setting a goal for something so far away when it will be obsolete or pointless to obtain by the time I'm able to get it.

[Gilean-EU]

I think raid content should be harder and more complex and the rewards should be different, but I don't think the solo alternative should take as long as it's going to take. The solo method should DEFINITELY not be more than 24 times as long, nor should it even be 12 times as long (even with a 24 man raid in this case). I will freely admit that getting 24 people together for a time and resource commitment of that magnitude is a skill and a feat in itself!

If the scale was to be weighted, I'd obviously prefer it to be weighted in the solo player's favor, since raid gear of such a high caliber carries the cache and status for players earning it through raids which a solo player, once getting and investing that amount of time, would be almost a greater accomplishment, but impossible to measure and prove. "I got this by skirmishing" would be more impressive to me than "I got this on my second ever run!"

It doesn't matter to me what they do at this point. It's "impossible" for me to get the gear without having comparable gear anyway. I can't rationalize setting a goal for something so far away when it will be obsolete or pointless to obtain by the time I'm able to get it.

Good post, +1 rep.

I wish devs created "comparable incomparables" as lvl 75 set, so raiders could work towards their raid gear (that help their fellowship skills), and soloers could work towards their solo gear (that helps their soloing skills, eg. war-speech for minstrels, overpower for guardian etc). But maybe devs acknowledge that average soloer is not so "gear-centric" as average raider in game as LOTRO anyway, and that's why they create juicy carrots for groupers/raiders. Still, we all like advancement, and when we reach level cap, new/better gear is something that could keep us playing, as long as getting that (the work itself) is still fun, and without having to change our playstyles for that.

The solo way for current top-end armour is just absurd, and there is no way I am going to do that, I'll rather have fun playing the game instead. That's okay, I'll wear quest gear and crafted gear instead. It would be interesting to see the real differences between best raid set and best solo set (crafted/quest etc), so we could decide how much we miss if we don't get that raid gear.

[Morbeleg]

I think raid content should be harder and more complex and the rewards should be different, but I don't think the solo alternative should take as long as it's going to take. The solo method should DEFINITELY not be more than 24 times as long, nor should it even be 12 times as long (even with a 24 man raid in this case). I will freely admit that getting 24 people together for a time and resource commitment of that magnitude is a skill and a feat in itself!

If the scale was to be weighted, I'd obviously prefer it to be weighted in the solo player's favor, since raid gear of such a high caliber carries the cache and status for players earning it through raids which a solo player, once getting and investing that amount of time, would be almost a greater accomplishment, but impossible to measure and prove. "I got this by skirmishing" would be more impressive to me than "I got this on my second ever run!"

It doesn't matter to me what they do at this point. It's "impossible" for me to get the gear without having comparable gear anyway. I can't rationalize setting a goal for something so far away when it will be obsolete or pointless to obtain by the time I'm able to get it.

While this is your wishes, Turbine certainly didnt feel like favoring solo players (in the raid gear we're talking bout).
I can live well with that personally.
The barter cost in S4M for the actual pieces and the barterup for a S4M at skirmish barter attest to this.
If I hear someone actually say "I got the 4 pieces via skirmishes!" I would probably consider that impressive... insanity.
In raids btw, you usually dont hear the "I got this on my 2nd run ever", you would more likely hear "we finally got the boss down after 5 attempts, and I got the armor token woo!" but yea, when 2 tokens drop and there is 12 people raiding there is bound to be 2 people get the armor token on first (successful) run and 2 people on 2nd run etc (assuming 2 for challenge etc). Roll bad, and you get it on (successful) run 6 or later.

Anyways, if you are able to do school/library now, you can certainly get this done at 75 too with similar caliber gear - cause thats where you get the S4M for it. Important to realize is that people wont raid for the armor pieces you get for S4M (they can, but its inefficent timewise), they will do the current scaleable instances a couple weeks to get the marks. Because its simple and efficent, much less effort than doing the raid that can drop the marks (helegrod wings).

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

Its possible to make challenging solo content, just as it's possible to make challenging group content. They should have equivalent rewards.

It is very possible. But it has never happened in LOTRO until now and I sincerely doubt it will ever happen in the future. I feel the developers are afraid to release any sort of difficult solo content because anything moderately difficult they released in the past has resulted in mixed feedback.

[grinko.at]

It is not possible to create challenging solo content without making a different version for each class.

Content that is incredibly difficult for a Rune-Keeper, Hunter or Minstrel may be a walk in the park for Wardens, Guardians and Lore-masters. Therefore, all solo content difficulty is designed to be possible with the weakest solo class, as they don't have the time to scale content to the mechanics and weaknesses of each class. And they won't create content that can only be beaten with a small subset of classes.

Raids, on the other hand, more or less always require a balanced group makeup where specific class weaknesses are countered by the strengths of others, so Raids can and do have a much higher difficulty than any solo content in the game.

Raid gear is the reward for beating such difficult content with 12 to 24 players, as the content won't be run more than once if not for the gear. Take 12-man skirmishes for example, they are hardly ever run (except for Thorog mark farming), because there are no shiny rewards for it. All the time it took creating, testing and balancing raid skirmishes has gone to waste because nobody runs them.
Giving solo content equal rewards that are reasonably obtainable would completely kill raid content, therefore raid rewards will always be the best gear available.

[RicardoFurriel]

Take 12-man skirmishes for example, they are hardly ever run (except for Thorog mark farming), because there are no shiny rewards for it. All the time it took creating, testing and balancing raid skirmishes has gone to waste because nobody runs them.
Giving solo content equal rewards that are reasonably obtainable would completely kill raid content, therefore raid rewards will always be the best gear available.

And some people are thinking: just kill raid content already.

For those still beating on a dead horse, please stop with the comparable incomparables story. Crafted/bartered/quest reward gear can put everyone very close to the best gear in the game.

[Ardineck]

While this is your wishes, Turbine certainly didnt feel like favoring solo players (in the raid gear we're talking bout).
I can live well with that personally.
The barter cost in S4M for the actual pieces and the barterup for a S4M at skirmish barter attest to this.
If I hear someone actually say "I got the 4 pieces via skirmishes!" I would probably consider that impressive... insanity.
In raids btw, you usually dont hear the "I got this on my 2nd run ever", you would more likely hear "we finally got the boss down after 5 attempts, and I got the armor token woo!" but yea, when 2 tokens drop and there is 12 people raiding there is bound to be 2 people get the armor token on first (successful) run and 2 people on 2nd run etc (assuming 2 for challenge etc). Roll bad, and you get it on (successful) run 6 or later.

Anyways, if you are able to do school/library now, you can certainly get this done at 75 too with similar caliber gear - cause thats where you get the S4M for it. Important to realize is that people wont raid for the armor pieces you get for S4M (they can, but its inefficent timewise), they will do the current scaleable instances a couple weeks to get the marks. Because its simple and efficent, much less effort than doing the raid that can drop the marks (helegrod wings).

I don't think you get the point yet. School/Library is small group content, not solo. Though a soloer could conceivably work through one of those, the time involved in that is just as prohibitive as soloing straight skirmishes.

Also, I'm not saying favor soloers, I'm saying if the raid is quicker to get it in and there is a half-way point or a scaled version for soloers, that it STILL would be prohibitive and "unfair" because it would just take too long.

Your comment on what is said during raids...come on now. You call a run an attempt, I call it going through until you're finished, complete or not. Doesn't matter what you call it or what all your friends say. It's soda vs. pop. I gave an example. Yours is almost even more insulting. "I went in and won a token on the first night" would make a solo player even more sad.

Also, the CURRENT system is different from what is being suggested (since it's not out of beta yet) is coming. A friend is earning skirmish marks now for the minstrel Annuminas set and it's a grind, but she will be done with the WHOLE set before RoI comes out. She is soloing underleveled content. That's an ENORMOUS difference! She also is able to group consistently for those STM that you're talking about which a soloer is not going to get. THAT'S an enormous difference.

You don't get it and I think it's clear from your numerous posts that you don't. If you can't understand why earning it solo would take so long, then I can't understand why you keep singling out points that I make and using them out of that context.

[Arbalister]

Also, the CURRENT system is different from what is being suggested (since it's not out of beta yet) is coming. A friend is earning skirmish marks now for the minstrel Annuminas set and it's a grind, but she will be done with the WHOLE set before RoI comes out. She is soloing underleveled content. That's an ENORMOUS difference! She also is able to group consistently for those STM that you're talking about which a soloer is not going to get. THAT'S an enormous difference.

I'm doing much the same, solo, with on-level skirmishes, using the 25% mark boost from the store. I should have enough for 1 of the 4 pieces you can get outside the 24 man raid by launch...and I'm not grinding to get there. Thats about 6 skirms a day since NDA lifted - about 3 hours a day. It's a much heavier skirmish schedule then I normally would do, but for experimentation sake, what the heck. It helps that there's sort of a lull in kinship stuff waiting for the upadte. :-)

[Ardineck]

I'm doing much the same, solo, with on-level skirmishes, using the 25% mark boost from the store. I should have enough for 1 of the 4 pieces you can get outside the 24 man raid by launch...and I'm not grinding to get there. Thats about 6 skirms a day since NDA lifted - about 3 hours a day. It's a much heavier skirmish schedule then I normally would do, but for experimentation sake, what the heck. It helps that there's sort of a lull in kinship stuff waiting for the upadte. :-)

I think many people don't realize or care that it's a big chunk of my day, my gaming time dedicated solely to skirmishing. That's not why I play the game, but if I don't get to group, then my "end game content" "ends" much sooner than people who raid. Good luck with your goal. It's good that you aren't feeling a grind, because that can be a hope killer.

[Arbalister]

I think many people don't realize or care that it's a big chunk of my day, my gaming time dedicated solely to skirmishing. That's not why I play the game, but if I don't get to group, then my "end game content" "ends" much sooner than people who raid. Good luck with your goal. It's good that you aren't feeling a grind, because that can be a hope killer.

That's more then half the time I general spend in game, so it's a lot - but like I said, at the moment there's not a lot else going on. It'll slow after launch, but, but the same token, there will be more opportunity to do multi character skirms, and small instances. And one of the reasons it's not feeling grindy is that there are so many skirmishes to choose from. I haven't done the same one twice in alternate days, let alone the same day.

[Morbeleg]

I don't think you get the point yet. School/Library is small group content, not solo. Though a soloer could conceivably work through one of those, the time involved in that is just as prohibitive as soloing straight skirmishes.

Also, I'm not saying favor soloers, I'm saying if the raid is quicker to get it in and there is a half-way point or a scaled version for soloers, that it STILL would be prohibitive and "unfair" because it would just take too long.

I suppose you cant do group content for a reason then. I wish you luck with the SM grind if you wish to do this solo, and can sympathize with you for the large chunks of time you are gonna have to spend to get your equip. Turbine has in a very clear way shown what they think is reasonable for solo. Hopefully they add a direct SM barter in addition to S4M barter and reduce the huge cost somewhat that way, release of ROI will tell. I think the cost we heard is too extreme, without getting into numbers on what I would feel is suitable.

Your comment on what is said during raids...come on now. You call a run an attempt, I call it going through until you're finished, complete or not. Doesn't matter what you call it or what all your friends say. It's soda vs. pop. I gave an example. Yours is almost even more insulting. "I went in and won a token on the first night" would make a solo player even more sad.

Come now. Very few win a raid the first time around. If they do, something is wrong with the raid (exploitable bug, or difficulty too low). If you think it almost insulting, its probably because you forget that the raider wont say anything of the sort until they got the boss down, and then there is the elation over getting it after many runs to learn to win it and celebration and itemlinking. Like it or not
Its just not the same saying "weee, we wiped for 4 hours and managed to stay alive for 15 minutes on our best go".
Taking a raidboss at least in OD for a granted win after you have done it a few times usually lead to cockiness and cause multiple wipes/fails before you get it down, requiring your raid to remember its still difficult if they arent playing their A game. Concentration and not overconfidence in other words.
I'd be sad to be soloing for the set too, so I wont use the solo option as it is is. Way too costly, and too grindy for a mediocre upgrade over rep/crafted/quest stuff according to what has leaked from beta this far.

You don't get it and I think it's clear from your numerous posts that you don't. If you can't understand why earning it solo would take so long, then I can't understand why you keep singling out points that I make and using them out of that context.

Oh, I get it but I just dont agree to all you post (yes, I have understood that getting 4part of a set through solo play is a major undertaking. Maybe too timeconsuming, but I deal with it by selecting the easier path and keep my sanity).
It makes no sense to me to quote your entire post to get to the point I disagree with, or want to have clarified.
Takes up room, adds nothing and if Im apathetic or uncaring or actually agree with one of your points, it makes no sense to me to make anyone read through those again by quoting it, it stands well on its own in your original post.
Responding section by section also let me address smaller chunks of items at a time as well.

If you want to post stuff but dont want to have responses, tough luck, we're on a discussion forum and as non F2P we have posting rights here. Did I miss a post saying you are allowed to post but Im not allowed to respond to you somewhere?
No idea why you claim Im singling out things out of context (dont think I did here), so I guess thats how you wanna roll to make your points. I have noticed earlier here that posting things you cant back up or justify gets you arrested and put in your place. The golden rule seems to be "dont post stuff you arent comfortable defending or dont believe in, and avoid the rulelawyers who will ride you hardcore if you slip up".

If you paid attention, you'll notice I didnt respond to one section of your post. Its because I dont care about it and didnt see any relevance. Thought Id mention it as an example

[Starrywisdom]

Maybe too timeconsuming

Maybe? Seriously? It's most definitely too much of a time investment - especially when compared to other paths to getting the same thing.

[Morbeleg]

Maybe? Seriously? It's most definitely too much of a time investment - especially when compared to other paths to getting the same thing.

Hehe. I think its too timeconsuming, yes. Glad im not gonna explore the fun through that path, although Im not looking forward to revisit school/library and so forth for a week or 2 *shudders*.

Fresh beta info:
1 S4M = 2506 SM and either 1 V4M or 2 4th marks.
Adjusted down from excess of 528k sm to 240k sm + 192 4th marks (im assuming you will get those before 240k so no sweat for those) for the 96 S4M upgraded marks for the 4 pieces. Hey, at least it was reduced to more sane numbers.

[Ardineck]

I suppose you cant do group content for a reason then. I wish you luck with the SM grind if you wish to do this solo, and can sympathize with you for the large chunks of time you are gonna have to spend to get your equip. Turbine has in a very clear way shown what they think is reasonable for solo. Hopefully they add a direct SM barter in addition to S4M barter and reduce the huge cost somewhat that way, release of ROI will tell. I think the cost we heard is too extreme, without getting into numbers on what I would feel is suitable.



Come now. Very few win a raid the first time around. If they do, something is wrong with the raid (exploitable bug, or difficulty too low). If you think it almost insulting, its probably because you forget that the raider wont say anything of the sort until they got the boss down, and then there is the elation over getting it after many runs to learn to win it and celebration and itemlinking. Like it or not
Its just not the same saying "weee, we wiped for 4 hours and managed to stay alive for 15 minutes on our best go".
Taking a raidboss at least in OD for a granted win after you have done it a few times usually lead to cockiness and cause multiple wipes/fails before you get it down, requiring your raid to remember its still difficult if they arent playing their A game. Concentration and not overconfidence in other words.
I'd be sad to be soloing for the set too, so I wont use the solo option as it is is. Way too costly, and too grindy for a mediocre upgrade over rep/crafted/quest stuff according to what has leaked from beta this far.




Oh, I get it but I just dont agree to all you post (yes, I have understood that getting 4part of a set through solo play is a major undertaking. Maybe too timeconsuming, but I deal with it by selecting the easier path and keep my sanity).
It makes no sense to me to quote your entire post to get to the point I disagree with, or want to have clarified.
Takes up room, adds nothing and if Im apathetic or uncaring or actually agree with one of your points, it makes no sense to me to make anyone read through those again by quoting it, it stands well on its own in your original post.
Responding section by section also let me address smaller chunks of items at a time as well.

If you want to post stuff but dont want to have responses, tough luck, we're on a discussion forum and as non F2P we have posting rights here. Did I miss a post saying you are allowed to post but Im not allowed to respond to you somewhere?
No idea why you claim Im singling out things out of context (dont think I did here), so I guess thats how you wanna roll to make your points. I have noticed earlier here that posting things you cant back up or justify gets you arrested and put in your place. The golden rule seems to be "dont post stuff you arent comfortable defending or dont believe in, and avoid the rulelawyers who will ride you hardcore if you slip up".

If you paid attention, you'll notice I didnt respond to one section of your post. Its because I dont care about it and didnt see any relevance. Thought Id mention it as an example

Congratulations. Your post is riddled with enough inaccuracies about my own statements, contextual and otherwise, that I don't care anymore. You continuously seem to be dodging the real issues and making up your own to argue about (not wanting discussion? Try discussing the points and not making them up). You havent added anything to the discussion. You invent the discord and then fail at trying to be the one to clear it up. No mas.

Anyway, raids should be fun. I enjoy the times I have PUGed through SG with some fantastic people. Sadly it is rare, not just to have the time, but to find people who can run that content without wiping once. I do look occasionally for that group...we friend listed each other after such a smooth run...never do we all seem to be on at the same time anymore. There are people with even less time than me, too.

I hope Turbine decides to scale back the solo grind to be more on par with what they can only know is the timeline for another release of content. Attainable but far-reaching is one thing...builds character. The way they have it set now, it is a hope crusher. Several friends and players have discussed this thread openly and beside the PvMP changes (not for me in any case) everyone agrees that it is too far to be fair in any sense. The degree of scale back is the only point of contention and even that extreme is FAR less than it is now. I don't pretend to be an expert, but what I do think is that Turbine MUST have a solution they will reveal later that is already designed to fix this "problem" and if so, then good for them.