Five New Instances in Update 5

[Lohi]

I have lurked on this forum and kept my mouth shut and watched all of turbines lies boil and fester.

Which lies? I have been hear nearly as long as you and I haven't run across any outright lies. I have seen plans that had to be changed, but those are not lies. I have seen marketing fluff but those aren't really lies either. We've had cases where a producer is a bit too excited and says "it will do X!" and then it turns out it doesn't; but is that a lie or is that someone just getting far too excited?

If those are lies, then every single company in the world lies. That body wash does not cause the opposite gender to throw themselves at me, those shoes do not make me run faster, and I can't feel the freshness after using a new laundry detergent.

Do you think Turbine devs are sitting back rubbing their hands in evil glee because they've cheated someone? No. More likely they are every bit as concerned as the players are.

[MorliX]

I have steered clear of this debate for a while, and it does seem as if it has evolved in a way that misstates what was at one point a valid complaint.

I am not saying that people should not be frustrated even now, due to the delay until the instances will be released, but delays on content are permissible legally speaking.

What at one point was legally suspect, was that there had been amply expressed expectations of instances by the players, while Turbine deliberately remained silent and actively marketed to players with at least an arguable awareness that less sales would have resulted had Turbine clarified as to those mistaken expectations.

Turbine ultimately made the right decision and has indicated that the instances will be included in the pre-order cost, as soon as they are available.

Remedial measure to quell a situation or not, it pretty soundly put to rest any actionable basis. If one were really pissed off or outlandishly motivated, an argument could still be made, but it would be truly fruitless, since there is really no "damage" being done.

The rest is pretty much up to them, as to whether and when TP points will be useable, or if cash via web order remains required for an unspecifed time.

As one who was very vocal during that couple of days on the cusp of riot, I am not sure this continued wrangling is much more than left-over anger at this point.

Imo, Turbine made the proper decision, and the episode will hopefully prove instructive to them as to the underlying issues of direct communication moving forward. If it doesn't, ans things repeat in a similar way, then I would imagine those who were effected this time, will reemerge and the problems will be greatly magnified.

[Southpa]

Imo, Turbine made the proper decision, and the episode will hopefully prove instructive to them as to the underlying issues of direct communication moving forward. If it doesn't, ans things repeat in a similar way, then I would imagine those who were effected this time, will reemerge and the problems will be greatly magnified.

They just implemented the requisite damage control, that's all. It's still happening and will continue to happen until RoI goes live. Even the usually in-the-pocket e-zines who have rarely (if ever) said anything even remotely negative about LotRO are wise to what is going on here. Lifting the NDA should typically spike interest and enthusiasm in a game. Instead, it only brought more negative publicity and uncertainty. That says a lot, unfortunately. Bullroarer was supposed to go up tonight, but it didn't. That strike anyone else as odd?

Even though Turbine claims the forums are only one of many sources of media they use to interact with their players, it's far and away the most effective place to take issue with their decisions. Uproars just can't be ignored. Damage control follows. It happened at the end of F2P Beta with stats on gear. Suddenly they were tweaked just days before launch. Somehow...

They didn't come out and tell us about Update 5 (erm, Update 4 isn't even out yet) until the crescendo on the forums showed no signs of losing steam. Some people like to try to make "complainers" feel unwelcome or invalidated. Complainers arguably care about the state of the game more than those who are content to sit back, defend Turbine and take whatever they throw at us. That's too bad. Complaints get results, folks. Within reason of course...

Just to show I'm not all complaints, the new zone is visually quite impressive and I love the quickened mount/dismount with mounts. See, not all bad.

[monteeburns]

I suppose that all that increased cash flow from F2P was supposed to fund a brighter future for LotRO, too right? Instead it funded a colossal disappointment labeled as an "expansion". It's all relative, man. Look at what you used to get with an expansion. Moria >> Mirkwood >>>>> RoI. I shudder to think what will be provided the next time they expect their loyal fan base to pony-up for the future. A half-dead goat and a scaling version of SG maybe?

It's about ethical business practice, not seeing how much you can get away with not giving your customers.

Most of you base your optimism on things you say will come. Others base their negativity on things that have been proven to be coming (or not coming). You tell me which is the more rational approach.

+ Rep. Spot on.

[Thrandronen]

why anyone wouldn't pay the $30 to help fund the future of the game anyway is beyond me. If you care enough to ##### about the game and future content then you should care enough to donate $30 to the future expansion of our wonderful gaming world.

If however you wanna free-load your way through the game then you should be made to purchase the future content with TP. VIP or not.

You don't get anything for nothing in this world.

Gee, I wonder what that $15 monthly fee pays for them .

Like other MMO then I expect to pay for expansions but everything after untill the next one should be completely free to monthly subscribers(that was the point of VIP wasn't it ?).

How pay, when you buy ROI shouldn't matter as the money still goes to Turbine.

[Mark_J]

They haven't said this. The only thing that HAS been said is that obtaining the expansion with cash WILL get the instances for free. This does not negate the possibility that buying with TP will include the instances. I'd say the probability is strong that there will be a quest pack, an instance pack, and a combo pack.

Well it sure looked like Aaron said that Update 5 and RoI will be cut up into little pieces and sold in the Store. The information contained in his interview coupled with the repeat clarifications that the ONLY way to have the Instances included is to purchase RoI with cash through Digital and it's quite obvious what will happen. No it hasn't been put in Official Release Notes but Turbine hasn't denied it and anyone that believes this won't happen has their head in the sand...

[revoked]

Which seems to me to mean, the expansion(the full package that includes the quests, the instances, skirmish cap raise, crafting level), as a package, is being sold in the web store. For real cash. Once they put it in the store, there may be a ROI expansion choice. You get the quests, the instances and other bits and pieces for one price in TP.

Or alternatively, and it does seem this is likely, the full package will not exist. The store will have no choice called the RoI expansion. Each piece will be sold separately. But here's the thing. Since there will be no such thing as "the expansion", so you won't be purchasing "the expansion" and getting gipped out of instances. You'll be paying for each piece separately.

If you have saved at least USD 30 worth of free tp with the intention of getting a discounted expansion from your bonus points, you'll still probably get the complete set of components for cheaper than those of us who shelled out real cash did. You may even get it without having spent a cent in real money. If you bought points when they were on sale with the intention of using them to buy the expansion, you'll still be able to use those same points to buy everything in the webstore expansion. You may or not have enough, but then, you didn't know how much the price would be when you got the points.

All that changes is that you'll purchase the pieces one by one and not as an "expansion". I really can't see why that generates such rage or is a betrayal by Turbine.

[Mark_J]

If you have saved at least USD 30 worth of free tp with the intention of getting a discounted expansion from your bonus points, you'll still probably get the complete set of components for cheaper than those of us who shelled out real cash did.

Ala Carte is ALWAYS more expensive. So far (excluding special offers) buying Moria or Mirkwood piece by piece would be far more expensive than buying the entire expansion when it was released.

Turbine has taken a glorified Quest Pack, called it an Expansion and is practically forcing players to pre-order it so they can avoid paying even more later on when the Instances in Update 5 (the Instances will apparently be sold separately) comes out. Lifetime and VIP members were supposed to get all Updates for free, this is the first time there are caveats attached to portions of an Update. This is what the outrage is all about IMO...

[Southpa]

Just the fact that Mr. Campbell seems rather pensive about how things will be offered really showcases the disconnect between WB and Turbine. The producer doesn't even know what the bosses are going to tell him to do, but the current state of affairs left him having to say something....

Kinda circus-y IMO.
Seat of pants, flying by? Just a titch, heh.

[Lohi]

Ala Carte is ALWAYS more expensive.

But not necessarily the same currency. TP are cheaper for me than USD because I get the TP every month as part of the subscription.

[zathscorp]

Well then it was their bad decision to buy hundreds of $s of Turbine points... Its a bit like me going to Disney World and 'investing' in a load of Disney $ and then complaining that I cant use them in my local supermarket or the like.

You're comparison is ridiculous and would only apply if people bought Turbine Points with the expectation of buying non LOTRO games. Nice troll though.

[zathscorp]

As one who was very vocal during that couple of days on the cusp of riot, I am not sure this continued wrangling is much more than left-over anger at this point.

That would be true if they had revealed when ROI would be available for points and whether they would include update 5 for VIPs as they promised after the switch to F2P. If that information had been released then I'd agree with you.

But there is business left undone and questions left unanswered/ignored. We just got a little more info regarding how ROI would likely show up in the store. But nothing definitive, especially with regard to update 5.

[MorliX]

That would be true if they had revealed when ROI would be available for points and whether they would include update 5 for VIPs as they promised after the switch to F2P. If that information had been released then I'd agree with you.

But there is business left undone and questions left unanswered/ignored. We just got a little more info regarding how ROI would likely show up in the store. But nothing definitive, especially with regard to update 5.

Good point.

[Naesraen]

But there is business left undone and questions left unanswered/ignored. We just got a little more info regarding how ROI would likely show up in the store. But nothing definitive, especially with regard to update 5.

This being Turbine: lack of positive confirmation = comfirmation of negative.

i haven't pre-ordered RoI yet. i've still got a few weeks to make up my mind, and i'm still not sure. RoI has, to me, always looked a dubious proposition:

free quest pack + completion of free class revisions + delayed free anniversary raid = paid expansion?!?

it's not really an expansion at all, it's just a cash grab. i'll add, i don't resent the fact it's a cash grab: we live in a world where both Elder Scrolls: Skygrim and TOR have $150 Collector's Editions, and most games (single player *and* MMOs) are moving towards more frequent updates/expansions (with consequently less content) as a means of better capturing their player's gaming expenditure. Turbine, with RoI, are doing the same thing: giving us, effectively, a constant stream of 'free' content and asking us periodically, to pay for it. that's cool, that's how the business works these days: if Turbine don't grab my cash, some other company will, so it's sensible business for Turbine to grab it while they can.

but hey, if Turbine can be cynical and look out for themselves, i can do it too: thus i haven't pre-ordered yet. i think, eventually, i probably will - or at least, i'll pay actual money for the update, rather than use TP - because the clear implication of the coming instance cluster is that those people who bought Update 4 with TP will be treated as premium members, and forced to pay again for the next piece of content (and probably: hereafter). so RoI is both a cash grab players and an opportunity to void some LTAs - that's win-win for Turbine. as i quite like my LTA, and don't want it effectively invalidated, i'll end up paying. probably. but maybe not before update 5 hits and i've decided if i want to play it or not.

[Adanamir]

Here are a few thoughts that I am afraid many people won't agree with, but that's life. I won't be trying to play Turbine's advocate, but I'll try to give a more impartal look over the situation.

First of all, all this would not have happened, if Turbine had managed the PR side much better. The lack of enough information inevitably leads to frustration, anger and what not. In most cases, an unpopular business decision is taken easier if it is announced in advance, instead of at the last possible moment. Unfortunately, it seems that company bureaucrats are no bettr than government ones - they always believe that denial is the better option, until there is no other choice left.

Now, the main issue here is that Turbine is trying to force more players to pay cash, than use TPs to buy additional game content. This seem unfair, especially to VIP players, who hope to be able to pay only their monthly subscription and nothing else. The same applies to TP hoarders, some of them going quite determinedly along that route. From an economic point of view, however, this is a classic example of money printing.

Imagine LOTRO as a separate country, with its own currency (TPs). The more people starting collecting it, the less value it has against real money (an exchange rate of sorts). Turbine is pouring an increasing amount of TPs through lifetime and VIP accounts, and the situation reaches the point when more valuable content (i.e. an expansion) is no longer worth to be measured with TPs. I'm not saying it's the players' fault, ut given how many people have been hoarding TPs, I am not srprised at all if Turbine feels reluctant to allow the entire expansion to be purchased with TPs.

Of course, there is a group that is likely to be really screwed, and this s the people who bought a lot of TPs for real money, and now they have been losing value. Basically, in deciding what to do next, Turbine will have to see who are more - those who preordered for cash, or tose who bought a lot of TPs with the idea to ise them to buy expansions. If this 33-page thread is any indication, those who preordered for cash are much more in number.

If this is the case (and it probaby is), then the most likely scenario is that a whole exoansion pack will not be available for TPs, but eveyr component of the expansion - quest packs, instances, character/crafting level uprades, etc. It makes business sense, as this way you benefit those who actually pay real money. Furthermore. This suggests that the TP value of all expansion components will be higher than its cash equivalent. It's not fair, you might say - well, in any business model when someone pays in advance, he or she is rewarded, as othewise there is no point to give away money you could use for something else instead.

In conclusion, I wish to express my puzzlement with the outrage coming from some people with lifetime accounts (I have one myself, by the way). Correct me if I am wrong, but the original deal was that you don't pay monthly subscription, but only pay for expansions (wiyh cash), and get the entire content. Has that changed? No. Thus, the outrage seems to be why lifetimers cannot get anything else from here on for free. Well, this is not what Turbine promised back then, and I don't remember the promise being updated. Some argue that this is not really an expansion - well, since most of the people writing here haven't actually seen what content will be there, I don't t hink they have the right to complain, only on the basis of a general description.

[Naesraen]

In conclusion, I wish to express my puzzlement with the outrage coming from some people with lifetime accounts (I have one myself, by the way). Correct me if I am wrong, but the original deal was that you don't pay monthly subscription, but only pay for expansions (wiyh cash), and get the entire content. Has that changed? No. Thus, the outrage seems to be why lifetimers cannot get anything else from here on for free. Well, this is not what Turbine promised back then, and I don't remember the promise being updated. Some argue that this is not really an expansion - well, since most of the people writing here haven't actually seen what content will be there, I don't think they have the right to complain, only on the basis of a general description.

As someone who is not outraged (not having pre-ordered, i wouldn't have much reason to be outraged) i feel well placed to reply here.

the problem is not one of communication (certainly, not one of 'mis-communication'), it's of misplaced enthusiasm and unfounded hope. a lot of people who pre-ordered were hoping and wishing for an expansion of the Moria-type: enormous, with brand-new game mechanics and a sense of scale and wonder. Turbine never actually promised this - and they are delivering exactly what they promised; there has been no miscommunication - but many people hoped for this, or wished for it. the people doing the hoping are the true believers, the long-term players, the ones who have been hoping - well, ever since MoM, but in some cases since back with The Rift first opened - that their game would live up to its promise, would combine the beautiful art and the story that i, for one, love, with
content of a similar quality.

for whatever reason, they decided/ hoped that RoI would be that expansion - the first paid expansion since F2P, the first paid expansion since Turbine entered the big leagues with their purchase by WB, the one where the F2P profit is visibly re-invested into the game, where WB make a statement 'this is our MMO, and it's as big as we are'. i'll repeat: Turbine have not at any point promised this; but still, it's not unreasonable for people deeply invested in the game to want and hope for it.

instead, they've got the anti-expansion: a (usually free) quest pack + the completion of the (until now, free) class revisions + a (promised iniitally as free) new lair raid.

Minus any new mechanics, minus promised/speculated new pvmp areas (and probably minus other originally pencilled-in features that weren't able ot be ready on time but which someone, somewhere read and thought 'that's it, if they really do that, this game is gold!')

so they feel, and not unreasonably, that they've been sold a lemon. it isn't a lemon, it is what it was promised to be (that would be why i haven't pre-ordered: it was there on the page how small RoI is) - but that doesn't stop people hoping it would be better; and doesn't invalidate the expectation that, with all the F2P and WB money, that it SHOULD be better. but it isn't, it's just our regular 18-month cash grab (coming down to 15 and 12 months in the near future, as the industry as a whole seeks to extract more cash from players) - and those people who wanted, hoped and deeply wished that RoI would be *the* expansion thus feel, well, cheated. it's their desires and hopes that have been cheated, not their wallets, but they've still been cheated.

[Adanamir]

This is certainly an accurate description of what is going on, and indeed hopes have been very probably too high. My point was that Turbine could have done something to avoid hopes being so high; a cold shower is not exactly what pleases customers, but honesty and integrity certainly does, so I think if they had presented better what we should expect from RoI, they would have won in the long run.

Anyways, I guess no point flogging a dead horse anymore, we will see what happens in three weeks.

[Skro]

As someone who is not outraged (not having pre-ordered, i wouldn't have much reason to be outraged) i feel well placed to reply here.

the problem is not one of communication (certainly, not one of 'mis-communication'), it's of misplaced enthusiasm and unfounded hope. a lot of people who pre-ordered were hoping and wishing for an expansion of the Moria-type: enormous, with brand-new game mechanics and a sense of scale and wonder. Turbine never actually promised this - and they are delivering exactly what they promised; there has been no miscommunication - but many people hoped for this, or wished for it. the people doing the hoping are the true believers, the long-term players, the ones who have been hoping - well, ever since MoM, but in some cases since back with The Rift first opened - that their game would live up to its promise, would combine the beautiful art and the story that i, for one, love, with
content of a similar quality.

I don't completely agree with you (plus the fact I preordered, but I'm ATM not outraged, even if the rumours blow warm and cold upon my enthousiasm, and I'm not in the Beta yet, but that's another question): in my opinion, "Expansion" is a word that appeals to more important things than just a new map, especially in a game like LOTRO where both first expansions included new (and for some, revolutionary) game mechanisms in addition to a level cap, a class revamp and new zones.
I don't deny RoI the term "expansion", because honestly we get all what I would call "the basics" of an expansion: new level cap, class revamp, new areas and a new raid. But I'm still under the feeling that we could have had more (and especially on two points: new instances and/or skirmishes - because running the same old ones again and again is boring -, and the end of the LIs revamp.
I'm confident that we'll get them eventually (after all, I wouldn't have pre-ordered if I hadn't a little faith in the game), but I'm a bit sad, having the feeling we could (should?) have gotten them from Day One...

Regards,
Skro

[Stadic]

instead, they've got the anti-expansion: a (usually free) quest pack + the completion of the (until now, free) class revisions + a (promised iniitally as free) new lair raid.

Minus any new mechanics, minus promised/speculated new pvmp areas (and probably minus other originally pencilled-in features that weren't able ot be ready on time but which someone, somewhere read and thought 'that's it, if they really do that, this game is gold!')

I've seen similar summations in this thread, and get upset every time the level advancement is omitted.

You get 10 levels.

This may seem minor to those who power-level 7 characters to cap, but this, to me, is what defines it as an expansion.

Character advancement in MMO's is almost always capped. When they remove and advance that cap, in almost every instance, it's done with an expansion.

I understand Turbine, with the store and points and F2P breaks this down, labels some items as free, others as paid, etc, but in the end, I still feel the 10 level character advancement separates this, considerably, from free content updates.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I've seen similar summations in this thread, and get upset every time the level advancement is omitted.

You get 10 levels.

You do indeed, but what does it change when your character gets to 75?

My point is that my LM at 75 will be indistinguishable from his level 65 self. He will gain access to no new skills worth talking about, his stats will be bigger numbers but he'll play completely the same as he was at 60. Indeed, apart from the level 58 pet (the Bog Guardian) he's little changed from when he was 50. I'd point out that at least with MoM we got, what was it, 4 new skills as we leveled those 10 levels?

Personally, the numeric value of his level and his stats are meaningless, it's how he plays that makes all the difference and so far I don't see any new 'toys' RoI will bring him that makes this numeric increase have a purpose.

In contrast, I've played FFXI since 2005 and for many years the level cap was 75. Did it stop character progression? No, not at all, because Square Enix introduced a character progression mechanism (Merits) that increased characters' 'power' without a single digit increase in the level number. It was entirely satisfactory. Latterly SE have begun to increase the cap, in steps of 5 it's now 90 and headed for 99, but the difference between FFXI and LoTRO is that in those 15 levels my characters have gained several significant new/improved skills, while my LoTRO character will gain none for his 10 new levels.

[HolyGigi]

I've seen similar summations in this thread, and get upset every time the level advancement is omitted.

You get 10 levels.
.

It's not omitted. You get those 10 lvls even if you dont purchase RoI quest pack.
Most are not saying we dont get anything with RoI, we are saying we dont get anything special, that would make an expansion actually an expansion.
The only thing those 10 lvls will achieve is making obsolete most of the instances present in the game now

[Stadic]

It's not omitted. You get those 10 lvls even if you dont purchase RoI quest pack.
Most are not saying we dont get anything with RoI, we are saying we dont get anything special, that would make an expansion actually an expansion.
The only thing those 10 lvls will achieve is making obsolete most of the instances present in the game now

And my retort to that is, 10 levels is specifically what helps makes it an expansion, not a content release. Content releases seldom contain level cap extensions.

I'm not asking people to be "pleased" with anything. People feelings on "worth" is absolutely their own.

But I did quote a summary that omitted those levels, and felt it worth commenting on.

I would note that in my humble opinion, if you see the ability to level your character from 65 to 75, after years of sitting at cap, as nothing other than a mechanism that obsoletes endgame, we'll just have to disagree. I know a lot of people excited to be able to start progressing one or several characters again, and that alone is drawing them back to the game.

[Mark_J]

Level cap increases do not make up the major focus of an expansion and there has always been something to do when you reach the level cap, like Moria and Mirkwood provided. Additionally Moria and Mirkwood also introduced brand new aspects of the game in Legendary Weapons and Skirmishes.

In my own opinion Isengard is a Quest Pack with a level cap increase, nothing more.

[Lomeloth]

And my retort to that is, 10 levels is specifically what helps makes it an expansion, not a content release. Content releases seldom contain level cap extensions.

To which one may also retort that those levels are free to all players. You don't have to purchase the expansion to get them. So to characterize them as a major part of this expansion seems misplaced.

[Barrynor]

To which one may also retort that those levels are free to all players. You don't have to purchase the expansion to get them. So to characterize them as a major part of this expansion seems misplaced.

If ROI would not come, would you still get the ten levels? No? Is it then not part of the ROI release?