Official Discussion: Isengard LOTRO Store availability and Turbine Point Cost

[Ayrolen]

This is really the point though. When you bought MoM & SoM you also paid for the opportunity to level...

Weren't the level restrictions removed entirely after F2P launched? I just assumed that whether you bought RoI or not, that everyone would be able to level to 75, because of that change.

[Jurny]

If you all want to take the long road so be it. But please don't glorify it by making it sound easy.
~

Originally Posted by Jurny
But please don't glorify it.

That's pretty funny when it's exactly what Turbine have done in their advertising....

Please STOP manipulating what I post!!! If you are going to quote me for something, at least use the whole sentance!!



~

[monteeburns]

Please STOP manipulating what I post!!! If you are going to quote me for something, at least use the whole sentance!!
~

Taking a stand now about misleading information and manipulation? You're in the right thread . It's interesting you feel I misrepresented you though, yet you don't see a problem with Turbines promo for RoI...

[Mark_J]

Weren't the level restrictions removed entirely after F2P launched? I just assumed that whether you bought RoI or not, that everyone would be able to level to 75, because of that change.

I thought that the level and regional restrictions were removed when they made the Epic Story Lines free for all players, but I'm not certain about that.

I would be surprised if Turbine actually broke any laws with their latest stunt, it's quite obvious a legal team created their Terms for players to agree to and they are probably pretty solid. If there was any gray area I would bet this thread would have been locked a long time ago, it's permitted to continue because there is no liability for Turbine in my not so humble opinion.

That said there are two recent major threads here about the Instances and Isengard totaling about 100 pages with the majority of the posts being negative. The direction of the game has clearly changed, Turbine knows what they are doing and in my own opinion LOTRO no longer has the chance of being a truly epic game in spite of the fact that the story was one of the best ever written. It's just 'another game' on my hard-drive now and I've lost hope that they want to fix it...

[Korrigan]

I would be surprised if Turbine actually broke any laws with their latest stunt, it's quite obvious a legal team created their Terms for players to agree to and they are probably pretty solid.

Their "Prepare for Isengard" TP packages are still pretty ambiguous, at the least...

[Mark_J]

Their "Prepare for Isengard" TP packages are still pretty ambiguous, at the least...

Oh I agree, and I think the ambiguity was purposeful. I think their whole approach to this thing was completely unfair and totally wrong, just not legally wrong...

[john_anthony]

I have been here since the beginning. I play because of Tolkien and the artists and designers who have created this great world. And I play because of my friends here. I have posted almost a thousand times and I have kept all my posts helpful, funny, optimistic, and considerate of the fact that Turbine is a company of well-intentioned people... like you and me.

For the first time in 4 1/2 years, I don't trust you Turbine. With every statement you make, I will now be cynically at your words for what you are NOT saying. With every purchase and store release opportunity I will be looking at how you are nickel & diming me, and I will be looking to nickel & dime you right back.

If this is the path you have chosen to take with your customers, then it will bite you in the long run. When you give freely, people are more than happy to give to you right back. When people feel that you are honest and happy people working for their enjoyment, they are happy to support you above and beyond the expected.

You can market-speak this all you want. Customers KNOW when something in the room stinks. Maybe take this 40 page forum topic to the manager's meeting today, this Monday morning, and consider that you just MAY have made a wee mistake.

very well stated by an honest and loyal fan, who should be rewarded rather than punished for such faith.

however, one correction is in order: while this latest incident may have been the first time some have noticed this new approach, it is not new. it's not even related to the Warner Bros purchase, since this approach clearly predated the sale.

the first time turbine's now usual approach to honesty came to the fore was in the run-up to mirkwood, when turbine intentionally held the lifting of the closed beta NDA until after the end of its pre-purchase promotion. for two months, people in the beta begged and pleaded for marketing materials that were clearly false -- because features that were still being advertised as main selling points for mirkwood had been scrapped during the course of beta -- to be updated. testers weren't even asking for the promised features to be reinstated, just for the now-misleading pre-order marketing materials to reflect those changes so customers could make an informed choice about buying mirkwood. turbine steadfastly refused, and timed the pre-order sale so it would end before the NDA was released and thus before honest testers who played by the rules could finally share what they knew with their fellow players.

at the time, my forums pal Anardil summarized it perfectly:

When their entire marketing campaign is geared towards locking people into multi month subscriptions prior to seeing the actual product, it just cries out "this product will be sub par"

When was the preview event? When was the deadline to upgrade and get SoM for free?

Yea...let's lock them in for a few months before they find out how lacking this "expansion" is.

this same short-sighted, misleading approach continued through the launch of F2P and on into this latest debacle. it's not new, but increasing numbers of people are picking up on it as more and more examples become evident. the product is no longer strong enough to stand on its own, so they have to resort to gimmickry and manipulation....

sad....

[zathscorp]

It sure is easy to come out now and say they were purchased for the expansion. Where is your proof??

What a ridiculous statement.

[Jurny]

I think the main problem some people don't think about is, that this game has so many variables to it, it makes things more complicated then they normally would be. If Turbine had never gone F2P this would be simple. In fact it would be stupid easy. They would come out with an expansion, that EVERYONE would have to buy no matter what. But since this game now has people playing for free and not spending any money to do so, Turbine has to take measures to still make a profit.


I'm not defending them, not in the least. I'm just stating the facts, that this and every game worth playing needs to make a profit to contnue to grow. Some people seem to forget how empty this game was before F2P came into the picture. I thought it was going to shut down. Having played other games that have shut down (Tabula Rasa for 1) it's not a good feeling, playing a game you love and suddening it's over.


People you have choices, you can either continue to play a game you love, (buy the expansion or not) pay nothing to do so and stop blaming others for your own mistakes. If you feel you were wronged, it's only because YOU allowed it to happen.


You know that old saying....you can lead a horse to the water...but you can't make him drink it. The same thing
applies here.


Am I happy about every move they have made, certainly not! But I have no one to blame but myself, if I continue to allow it to happen. Do I want this game to shut down, NO!! I love this game, obviously, it's why I purchased the pre-order. But at the end of the day, it is just a GAME. Buy the expansion or not..the choice is yours!!



~

[Sapience]

Please keep the community guidelines in mind while posting in this thread. You're certainly welcome to discuss the topic at hand, but when that discussion spurs comments that violate the guidelines it will be acted upon accordingly. Let's keep it civil and clean.

Also, creating accounts to post in a controversial thread in a controversial manner is in direct violation to the 'one posing account' guideline. Players found doing this will have those accounts removed.

[Crell_1]

Weren't the level restrictions removed entirely after F2P launched? I just assumed that whether you bought RoI or not, that everyone would be able to level to 75, because of that change.

They were removed in update 2 when they opened up Volume 2 + landscape access to all. ; I forsaw 2 options. 1. Turbine could leave it gated by purchase for update 4, and then open it for Update 5. ; 2. They could just start with open landscape/epic access/no level cap restriction.

+Sapience, is the issue selling a 'RoI Expansion' bundle until the parts are all finished a CONTRACTUAL/LEGAL matter with Playspan? I see nothing technically stopping you from creating a BUNDLED expansion in the LotrO store which applies the 'IsenStd' product token to the account, like any other account wide purchase.

You simply would only have to advertise it with the parts that are currently available, you could update and lengthen the description (and even change the price if you like) at update 5.

(For those who don't know, Playspan is the operator of the LotrO store backend/sales/processing)

[Medway]

Hi guys, I’ll try to clear up some of the confusion around the instances and the Draigoch raid.

Five instances will ship with Update 5, but they are actually part of Isengard. They’re just delayed. So they aren’t part of the free Update 5 content. This is why they are listed for sale as part of our a la carte options in the LOTRO Store. Just to be clear, there is free content in Update 5. We’ll talk more about it after Isengard launches .

As for Draigoch, Kate broke this news to everyone back in March and it has been mentioned several times since then as now being a part of Isengard.

I hope that clears things up for everyone.

This has probably been covered before and correct me if I am wrong (which I probably am), but I don't remember seeing Rise of Isengard being advertised having any instances other than the raid?

With that in mind saying "They’re just delayed. So they aren’t part of the free Update 5 content" gives the impression that it is purely so you can attach a cost to the instances for those who wish to purchase the expansion via turbine points.

I hope I'm wrong, it would alleviate some of my worries that the free updates will be applied in the same manner and charged for.

[Sapience]

This has probably been covered before and correct me if I am wrong (which I probably am), but I don't remember seeing Rise of Isengard being advertised having any instances other than the raid?

With that in mind saying "They’re just delayed. So they aren’t part of the free Update 5 content" gives the impression that it is purely so you can attach a cost to the instances for those who wish to purchase the expansion via turbine points.

I hope I'm wrong, it would alleviate some of my worries that the free updates will be applied in the same manner and charged for.

I think once everyone actually sees them they'll understand. Especially the 12-player.

[nirsul]

I think the main problem some people don't think about is, that this game has so many variables to it, it makes things more complicated then they normally would be. If Turbine had never gone F2P this would be simple. In fact it would be stupid easy. They would come out with an expansion, that EVERYONE would have to buy no matter what. But since this game now has people playing for free and not spending any money to do so, Turbine has to take measures to still make a profit.

I'm not defending them, not in the least. I'm just stating the facts, that this and every game worth playing needs to make a profit to contnue to grow. Some people seem to forget how empty this game was before F2P came into the picture. I thought it was going to shut down. Having played other games that have shut down (Tabula Rasa for 1) it's not a good feeling, playing a game you love and suddening it's over.

People you have choices, you can either continue to play a game you love, (buy the expansion or not) pay nothing to do so and stop blaming others for your own mistakes. If you feel you were wronged, it's only because YOU allowed it to happen.

You know that old saying....you can lead a horse to the water...but you can't make him drink it. The same thing
applies here.

Am I happy about every move they have made, certainly not! But I have no one to blame but myself, if I continue to allow it to happen. Do I want this game to shut down, NO!! I love this game, obviously, it's why I purchased the pre-order. But at the end of the day, it is just a GAME. Buy the expansion or not..the choice is yours!!

Hm, back to all the angst here being about the customer's decision to buy or not. It's not. Basically, that's the trivial concern here, because all of us have made that decision already one way or another. Nope, it's about TURBINE'S business decisions, which is the flip side of any market transaction (you know, where someone BUYS and somebody else SELLS).

And again, someone brings up "it's about making a profit". They (Turbine) may think it is, but only if they're amazingly bad at business. As I explained here:

The problem is this: that's bad business. Business is about maximizing profit, not revenue on a per individual transaction basis but in general. In other words, while they now might get $30 off a VIP who otherwise would have gotten RoI "free", how much revenue currently and in the future are they losing? How many sales of TP bundles did they just cost themselves? How many monthly VIP subs did they lose?

All so that whatever percentage of VIPs (a minority of the playerbase) who didn't pre-order (which I bet is well under 50%) don't somehow get the expansion for "free" via TP.

Also, why anyone thinks the $30 pre-order gets more revenue into Turbine's pocket than the $50 TP bundle is beyone me. Hm, $50 > $30 as I remember my math .... In other words, it's to Turbine's advantage to sell TP bundles not pre-orders (except the legendary pack). In other words, 2 bundle sales to fence sitting premium players is more revenue than 3 basic pre-orders.

So which should they be protecting again: TP bundle sales or pre-orders? So, once again, how many people will now no longer buy the big bundle packs? How many VIPs have cancelled their subs?

In other words, it doesn't "make sense" from a general business perspective, just from an individual transaction perspective, and businesses that act on the latter end up in bad places.

That's the point, people who argue that this thing makes any kind of sense are focusing on the VIPs who haven't pre-purchased and have stockpiled all their TP to get a "free" expansion or obsessive TP F2P grinders. What percentage of the playerbase is that do you think? And really, how many of those people are now going to rethink their purchase decision and pay cash for it given the high TP cost? Because that's the actual revenue Turbine has "gained" by pricing the TP purchase high.

You see the point yet? The ONLY REVENUE THEY GAIN is from people who are going to change their purchasing decision and now buy the expansion with cash. What'd that be, a few thousand at best? At what cost in lost future revenues though? This is amazingly bad short term thinking.

IMO it's like they're applying the principles of in-game economics (bleed out gold via inflated pricing because there's unlimited funds in the aggregate in game) to the real world. It doesn't work the same way, and yes, TP are in fact a real world currency even if they're limited to one place to use exactly because their only option is real money.

[LordVoronturEU]

Weren't the level restrictions removed entirely after F2P launched? I just assumed that whether you bought RoI or not, that everyone would be able to level to 75, because of that change.

Initially, when F2P launched, Free/Premium players who had not purchased MoM/SoM through the store(or applied a product key through their accounts)were limited to lvl50. This changed with Update1.

[nirsul]

I think once everyone actually sees them they'll understand. Especially the 12-player.

Sapience, this sounds like "the instances are great". Which doesn't address the point he was making, which is simple: why does when something slip INTO an expansion does it get charged for, and something slips OUT OF an expansion release date and is never mentioned at all in any marketing, announcements, etc until questions are raised here by players, does it still get to considered part of the expansion and charged for?

That's completely utterly independent of the quality of the product.

[Sapience]

Sapience, this sounds like "the instances are great". Which doesn't address the point he was making, which is simple: why does when something slip INTO an expansion does it get charged for, and something slips OUT OF an expansion release date and is never mentioned at all in any marketing, announcements, etc until questions are raised here by players, does it still get to considered part of the expansion and charged for?

That's completely utterly independent of the quality of the product.

My reply was referring to the content not the quality.

[Crell_1]

Which doesn't address the point he was making, which is simple: why does when something slip INTO an expansion does it get charged for, and something slips OUT OF an expansion release date and is never mentioned at all in any marketing, announcements, etc until questions are raised here by players, does it still get to considered part of the expansion and charged for?

At no time is there any suggestion that 'the raid' went from being 'potentially free' to 'charged for'; only that the date of the deliverable moved. No where did Turbine make any claims the raid would be free, and nothing even remotely suggested that.

It went from 'no information given' (unknown information state) to ' to 'we're charging' (known information state.)
That's it.

[Maelendil]

Something's odd in the post count and page numbering: I see that there are 618 messages in this thread and 42 pages, but the last message I can see is number 599 on page 40. What happened to the rest ? Why am I constantly pushed back to page 40 if I want to go further ?

Edit: my post is now post #600 out of a total of 619 posts, it appears on page 40 out of 42!

[WickedWitch99]

Something's odd in the post count and page numbering: I see that there are 618 messages in this thread and 42 pages, but the last message I can see is number 599 on page 40. What happened to the rest ? Why am I constantly pushed back to page 40 if I want to go further ?

Edit: my post is now post #600 out of a total of 619 posts, it appears on page 40 out of 42!

Same problem here. Are those 18 invisible posts the hidden/deleted posts?


And to Sapience:

All nice and dandy that the thread needs to stay on topic. However, I, and I think many with me, would prefer a response of a blue name that answers the questions in this thread, without making once more ambiguous statements like 'My reply was referring to the content not the quality'.

It starts to look more and more that Turbine/WB really do not care. Or will I get slammed for concluding that too?

[heatherjewel]

OK here is a question I dont think anyone has asked....


Do you NEED the 3250 'main expansion' to purchase the dragon raid and/or the instances?

If so then why? If you separate them from that expansion why arent they stand alone?

I think those answers will basically tell the tale of if there is any underlying motive here.

[Korrigan]

I think once everyone actually sees them they'll understand. Especially the 12-player.

I doubt not many except the die hard fans will understand how you turned a "promised to be free" raid into a "pay to play" raid. I seriously doubt it, even though I'm old and my faith in the gullibility of human kind has become stronger with age.

[Crell_1]

I doubt not many except the die hard fans will understand how you turned a "promised to be free" raid into a "pay to play" raid. I seriously doubt it, even though I'm old and my faith in the gullibility of human kind has weakened.

Show me a single post where they promised it would be a 'free raid'.; Not even the PR announcements said anything about price, only timing and talked about the 'content!'

[nirsul]

At no time is there any suggestion that 'the raid' went from being 'potentially free' to 'charged for'; only that the date of the deliverable moved. No where did Turbine make any claims the raid would be free, and nothing even remotely suggested that.

It went from 'no information given' (unknown information state) to ' to 'we're charging' (known information state.)
That's it.

No, it went from being aimed at update 3 (from Paiz' december producer letter), meaning "free to VIP" and (probably) TP for premium (like the 2 instances that did launch there) to being charged for everybody because it's part of the expansion.

My reply was referring to the content not the quality.

Ok, so let's assume you mean the instances are located in some element of RoI, probably Isengard itself. How is that different from DN? Which may now be considered part of MoM quest pack, at the time it was part of a free content update later than the MoM launch and so not "part of MoM".

Again, it doesn't address the concern of "why are VIPs being charged for something launching with Update 5?", which is nominally a "free update" for VIPs. That's one question that's simply being danced around, because you're now saying that those are "part of RoI" when there was no indication in anything that they were. Until that's addressed head-on, you're going to be doing damage control and dealing with questions and rumors that the VIP "unlimited access to free content updates" is going bye bye.

Don't get me wrong, had you guys ever said "we have some instances that should launch with RoI, but we are having issues with them and we'll open them when they're ready which should be no later than Update 5", I personally wouldn't have an issue with this. However, you didn't. This is, IMO, one of those cases where your (collective) excessively close to the vest communication style is coming back to bite you. It was known among the players that Enedwaith had instances but they "weren't ready yet" when it released, had you made something similar known here I'd think you'd be seeing less of a backlash.

Something's odd in the post count and page numbering: I see that there are 618 messages in this thread and 42 pages, but the last message I can see is number 599 on page 40. What happened to the rest ? Why am I constantly pushed back to page 40 if I want to go further ?

Edit: my post is now post #600 out of a total of 619 posts, it appears on page 40 out of 42!

They've cleaned up some of the posts that were just a tad hot-headed by deleting them this morning I'm sure.

[UnlikelyBeing]

Show me a single post where they promised it would be a 'free raid'.; Not even the PR announcements said anything about price, only timing and talked about the 'content!'

As someone mentioned earlier, all content updates except expansions have been said to be free. As the dragon raid was originally announced to be the anniversary raid it is implied that it will be free to VIPs. If it was planned to be paid for the onus is on Turbine to make that clear and so the real question is where did they say they would be charging for the anniversary raid?