How is finesse diffrent from Radiance?

[Moejo]

I don't know how many lotro players have played wow, but finesse seems to me to be almost exactly like expertise in wow.

[Vardiel]

Guild Wars went down that road a long time ago, in that they'll outright sell you all the skills in from a campaign in one pack, and all the pets in the game in another. They introduced custom heroes, the only way for people to choose how many of any class they want, but only if they buy it from the store. They introduced costumes, again store-only, and they introduce new ones every few months. Extra storage? Extra character slots? Renames? Hairstyle changes? All store-bought. I fully expect GW2 will do something similar.

Now yes, you don't need to buy any of that stuff to play Guild Wars. But then again, you don't need to buy finesse scrolls to play LOTRO, either.

This is true. I have three GW "expansions" myself, only missing the last one, GW: Eye of North. I played each campaign at least two times to the end. Only time I consider the store was when I wanted to make a new character, without deleting any of my old ones. Did I need the store? Not once. I got my elite skills myself or with help from friends and strangers.

Enter Lotro. Did I need the store? Not sure if I needed, but I used it. I used it for extra character slots again, but the most important thing for me was more storage, shared, character and wardrobe. GW store sells more storage space too. I never seemed to need it.

To be fair, free TP is all I've spent in Lotro store. But I *have* paid for those points, via subscriptions, preorders and expansion packs. The store is also very different from GW store.

----

What I'm trying to say is, Lotro store is very dissimilar to GW store. At least to me, they are different and the need to use them is different. *shrug*

[DelgonTheWise]

Below is *my* version of Redrider's post, n.b. it is edited....

Q: How is Morale different from Radiance?
A: It's not. They are both gates to content.

Q: Is it required?
A: No it is not.* It only affects your ability to survive. If you don't mind dying often, then you don't need it.

Q: Will I need a lot of Morale in order to overcome dying?
A: Not at all.** You can get Morale easily on gear (just like Radiance used to be).

Q: The amount of Morale required to counteract dying is low right now. I will still be accepted into raids without it right?
A: Of course.*** The amount needed is still low (just like the amount of Radiance needed was low to begin with).

[Redrider.]

Interesting but faulty logic. Finesse does not behave exactly like the Vitality stat. You tried to compare insufficient Morale to insufficient Finesse. They are apples and oranges.

Turbine may try to convince everyone that Finesse is "just" another stat and nothing more but that is not true.

Example:

(Pre Radiance Removal) When you took off all your gear with Radiance on it, you lost all Radiance bonuses they gave you. And then when you entered a Radiance-requiring area, you suffered a Gloom/Dread penalty and would also cower.

(Post RoI) When you take off all your gear with Finesse on it, you lose all Finesse bonuses they gave you. And then when you enter into an area with Finesse-requiring mobs, you suffer an attack penalty on your skills towards those mobs.

When you take off all your gear with Vitality/Morale on it, you lose any bonus to Vitality or Morale they gave you. However, the difference is that you don't additionally suffer a -1500 to your Morale when engaging a mob just because your toon is naked.

If Turbine wants to make Finesse a stat, then they should remove it off of gear and make it an inate character stat that increases with you as you level or meet certain conditions (deeds, traits, etc.) Then I'll believe them.

[DelgonTheWise]

When you take off all your gear with Vitality/Morale on it, you lose any bonus to Vitality or Morale they gave you. However, the difference is that you don't additionally suffer a -1500 to your Morale when engaging a mob just because your toon is naked.

If Turbine wants to make Finesse a stat, then they should remove it off of gear and make it an inate character stat that increases with you as you level or meet certain conditions (deeds, traits, etc.) Then I'll believe them.

OK, you didn't like Morale as an analogy, nobody ever thinks analogies are relevant when they oppose one's viewpoint. Though bring in a squishy with less than 4K into OD against Durin's Bane and see if they survive... OK, how about melee offense/outgoing healing? How about your tank's BPE/incoming healing? etc. Don't have enough of those, and your group won't succeed. I still say it is just another stat. Are all stats of equal importance? No. Will there be instances where finesse is one of the more important ones? Sure. Does that make it "Radiance 3.0"? Not to me. Its widespread availability and the need for more or less of it depending on role and circumstances makes it, to me, just another stat.

I'd note that healers don't care about finesse except for backup roles (interrupts/etc). And DPS in the normal tank/spank situations won't care all that much either, as they will be attacking the target's rear arc, so no block/parry issues...

[Alad.]

The non-diabolical explanation that I get from the introduction of finesse, is that they are trying to make the combat mechanics be more realistic after having built the game with major flaws in the mechanics.

The flaws:
You avoid hits, resist, mitigate, etc... based only on your own stats and the opponents level. This means the game assumes that all mobs of a certain level are equal in those respects. You are therefore almost fighting against the air, only your stats matter for those issues.

The solution:
For every stat there has to be a counter-stat. You can evade, the mob can hit well enough to not let you evade that often. He can parry, you can be good enough to not let him parry.

But the problem at the base is that, in creating that simplistic combat model, they used percentages. It's very nice to look at and understand, but they quickly saw they could not make the players feel progress as they level up because a % has a limit of 100.

So they invented a way to try and get around this issue: ratings instead of %, and a non-linear conversion from rating to %. But the basic problem is still there, it's the %'s that drive the combat engine.

So now, when trying to implement this new change with finesse (which is indeed an improvement to the realism of combat), they're stuck with having to deal with the non-linear curves they invented, which obviously work in the opposite manner when going backwards, as in the use of a counter-stat such as finesse.

Simplicity would have gotten them there. Simple stat versus counter-stat. Add a touch of randomness and then figure out the outcome. No conversion to % is ever required, and especially no non-linear curves.

However, whether they choose to create a gate to raiding with this new stat has nothing to do with the above. They could choose to do it with any stat if you think about it. The question is, have they not learned their lesson from radiance? Do they not understand that people are paying to get entertainment and to enjoy all the content available? Why would they want to stop most players from enjoying the content?

The answer I'm afraid, is a mentality issue. Only time will tell. The problem is that time plays in their favour.

[Walhalla_EU]

Finesse is the same thing as radiance. Both are a gate to content. Unlike Radiance however, finesse seems to be a soft gate. Although radiance wasn't that bad at the start either.

The problem that befell us with radiance was the utter lack of other options. And with the availability of finesse from other resources that makes it at the moment acceptable. Much will depend though on how they procede in the coming content.

The only problem that I am going to see is the fact that for melee or ranged DPS finesse doesn't really matter seeing as these can position themselves on the backside of the mob.

While for tanks AND tactical DPS this stat will be of enormous importance. Tanks so they can actually build their aggro. And tactical DPS since there is no way to reduce resistance rating in a gigantic fashion like with melee BPE by just standing behind the target which in turn will decrease the damage put out by for example lrm, rks, minstrels.

Anyway to early to really judge finesse propperly.

[Jurri0017]

Please pardon my ignorance on this topic. I read a few of the pages and then skipped to the end and the argument has not changed.

Can someone clairify this with a mathmatical equation?

Here is what I understand so far.

I am a hunter and use a bow. I fire a skilled shot at a mob and multiple factors then come into play. The damage of my weapon for DPS, the level of my agility for my crit %, the level of my crit bonus, the armor of the mob, and then the parry/block/evade rating of the mob.

Now I have a few skills that can lower the parry/block/evade of the mob but I have to choose them in a specific order to maximize the damage that I can do.

As I am understanding it, Finesse will allow me to build up a stat that lowers the ratings by default so that I can hit harder and more have less parry/block/evades without using a skill to lower this rating.

Then some mobs in the world , but more in raids, will also have finesse to stop me from lowering their parry/block/evade ratings while possibly lowering mine if my finesse is not higher or equal to the mobs.

Please explain where my understanding is flawed or wrong. I am interested in actually knowing how Finesse works.

[Lestache]

Please pardon my ignorance on this topic. I read a few of the pages and then skipped to the end and the argument has not changed.

Can someone clairify this with a mathmatical equation?

Here is what I understand so far.

I am a hunter and use a bow. I fire a skilled shot at a mob and multiple factors then come into play. The damage of my weapon for DPS, the level of my agility for my crit %, the level of my crit bonus, the armor of the mob, and then the parry/block/evade rating of the mob.

Now I have a few skills that can lower the parry/block/evade of the mob but I have to choose them in a specific order to maximize the damage that I can do.

As I am understanding it, Finesse will allow me to build up a stat that lowers the ratings by default so that I can hit harder and more have less parry/block/evades without using a skill to lower this rating.

Then some mobs in the world , but more in raids, will also have finesse to stop me from lowering their parry/block/evade ratings while possibly lowering mine if my finesse is not higher or equal to the mobs.

Please explain where my understanding is flawed or wrong. I am interested in actually knowing how Finesse works.

Your finesse will lower the mob's BPE and Tactical Resistance. The mob's Finesse will lower your BPE and Tactical Resistance.

Finesse will not help counter Finesse - it is an offensive stat only. Think of it mainly as an increased "to hit" chance.

As for the exact math, it's been posted in a few places, but I'll let someone with more inclination to do so find it and link it.

[Jurri0017]

Your finesse will lower the mob's BPE and Tactical Resistance. The mob's Finesse will lower your BPE and Tactical Resistance.

Finesse will not help counter Finesse - it is an offensive stat only. Think of it mainly as an increased "to hit" chance.

As for the exact math, it's been posted in a few places, but I'll let someone with more inclination to do so find it and link it.

So how is it a Gate like Radiance? Are the mobs going to have hyped up BPE so that you can't hit them at all?

[Lestache]

So how is it a Gate like Radiance? Are the mobs going to have hyped up BPE so that you can't hit them at all?

For most reasonable folks, it's only a gate like any other basic stat like Morale or Outgoing Healing - there's no certain number you need to be able to function, but if you have too little of it you might be a drag on the group. And, frankly, it's probably even less of a gate than simple Morale, as it'll be much harder for a group to notice if you're hitting the mob 1 or 2 fewer times out of a 100 than if you have 3k less morale than anyone else and keep getting one-shot by bosses.

As for mob BPE, a dev used as an example a raid boss with 35% total BPE, which he said was on the (very) high end of what raid bosses might have. I wouldn't worry about ever being in a situation in which you can't hit the mob, let alone even have a significant number of your attacks miss, given all of the debuffs that we can apply in raid situations.

[Redrider.]

I'd note that healers don't care about finesse except for backup roles (interrupts/etc).

I still don't understand why people accept everything Turbine tells them without even raising questions. If you care about lotro, you would at least question the implications of changes to the basic game mechanics they make every 2 years.

You just stated clearly in your own words another problem that arises from the introduction of Finesse. The fact that support role characters are not affected by this change at all.

How is that fair for every other non-support role character? Or how about how some classes have to have two or more sets of LIs (one for DPS/one for healing/one for buffing) in order to be effective in both solo/raid situations while other classes only need one?

Is Finesse really required at all? Could they not just increase mob BPE and not even introduce Finesse?

Of coure they can. They can slightly raise all mob BPE across the board and we never even need to put Finesse on any of our chars at all.

This is nothing more than an introduction of yet another unnecessary "stat" for no reason other than to force players to grind instances/crafting for gear with Finesse on it.

[Cadd_EU]

Is Finesse really required at all? Could they not just increase mob BPE and not even introduce Finesse?

Of coure they can. They can slightly raise all mob BPE across the board and we never even need to put Finesse on any of our chars at all.

This is nothing more than an introduction of yet another unnecessary "stat" for no reason other than to force players to grind instances/crafting for gear with Finesse on it.

Um, those first two paragraphs is completely inverted from what finesse does... They'd have to not raise the mobs B/P/E and similarily keep a low cap on avoidances for players. This gives more wiggle room.

The last point: How the heck is Finesse forcing you to grind for it, when it's literally everywhere?? You'd have to try pretty hard to avoid finesse judging by the beta screenshots...

[DelgonTheWise]

You just stated clearly in your own words another problem that arises from the introduction of Finesse. The fact that support role characters are not affected by this change at all.

How is that fair for every other non-support role character? Or how about how some classes have to have two or more sets of LIs (one for DPS/one for healing/one for buffing) in order to be effective in both solo/raid situations while other classes only need one?

...

This is nothing more than an introduction of yet another unnecessary "stat" for no reason other than to force players to grind instances/crafting for gear with Finesse on it.

Some classes need 4-5 LIs (Captains, RKS), some do well with fewer. Some classes need 4 (or 5) major legacies, some need only 3. Some classes have harder legendary class quests. Some classes solo better. Some classes have better armor set bonuses. Some classes have power problems. Life isn't fair.

As to the "grind" thing, we are replacing all of our equipment. Finesse is apparently very widely available. Don't see your point. Things are simpler with the stat revamp, finesse adds a wrinkle/choices as opposed to stack Might, Might is good, more Might is better. (or Will or Agility depending on your class). Finesse may not work out great, can't say it will, but I see no reason to believe it is inherently bad, and I actually think it may well end up as a feature. Diverse itemization options are good IMHO, as are meaningful tradeoffs/choices...

[Redrider.]

The point is that the developers are spending more time implementing ways for players to continue to grind rather than towards ways for players to have fun.

One of the above makes the game interesting, the other does not. I'll let the reader decide which is which.

We spent two years with Radiance until Turbine finally realized that it wasn't needed and that the majority of people didn't like it. All those hours of development by Turbine staff, the changes to the game mechanics, the changes to itemization, all of it wasted.

Now we're going to spend another two years with Finesse until they realize that it isn't needed and the majority of people don't like it either. And all those hours of development by Turbine staff to implement this needless "stat" will be wasted.

If they put those hours towards content development, we would've been in Gondor by now. We could have a dozen more endgame raids/instances. We could have a new pvmp zone. Instead, they're spending time adding +finesse to different pieces of equipment. It's absurd.

That is all. I'm done with this thread.

[socom33]

Finesse AS A STAT is identical to critical defense in that it can only subtract from a rating which has a finite value. If you have more finesse than your opponent has resistance or block+parry+evade its useless.

Finesse AS IT IS ACQUIRED is nearly indentical to incoming healing. Finesse is only found on gear (jewelry armour) and skills. Inc healing is only acquired on relics jewelry armour and skills. Crafted gear quest gear skirmish soldiers also get finesse like they currently get incoming healing

Finesse AS IT IS NEEDED is identical to critical defense. The tougher the monster the more it is needed, the weaker the monster the more it is wasted.

Radiance 2.0 AS A STAT was identical to critical defense in that it could only subtract from a rating which had a finite value (gloom)

Radiance 1.0 AS A STAT was indentical to offense in that it both boosted effectiveness and countered counter-effective stats (dread)

Both forms of radiance AS THEY WERE ACQUIRED were identical to nothing. It was only found on gear found in instances, it was extremely restrictive and limited people to instance gear in raids.

Radiance AS IT WAS NEEDED was unlike any other stat. Initially it had a tiny bonus to morale and damage outside of instances but really shined when there was dread in large amounts. 2.0 was like nothing else either, it was only needed and usefful in 3 places everywhere else it was a dead stat.

Basically finesse is identical to many other stats except in how it is acquired, in which case it only bears resemblence to 1 other stat (inc healing). It cannot be adequately compared to radiance, they are far too different

[rwsteve1044]

The point is that the developers are spending more time implementing ways for players to continue to grind rather than towards ways for players to have fun.

One of the above makes the game interesting, the other does not. I'll let the reader decide which is which.

We spent two years with Radiance until Turbine finally realized that it wasn't needed and that the majority of people didn't like it. All those hours of development by Turbine staff, the changes to the game mechanics, the changes to itemization, all of it wasted.

Now we're going to spend another two years with Finesse until they realize that it isn't needed and the majority of people don't like it either. And all those hours of development by Turbine staff to implement this needless "stat" will be wasted.

If they put those hours towards content development, we would've been in Gondor by now. We could have a dozen more endgame raids/instances. We could have a new pvmp zone. Instead, they're spending time adding +finesse to different pieces of equipment. It's absurd.

That is all. I'm done with this thread.

What grind? There is ZERO grind to finesse. It just happens as you get your new big boy gear (l75 gear for all you adults).

Just about every source of gear has it, you get it by playing all the same old systems you have always played.

Can be had on:

-Crafted gear (no rad was there)
-World loot drops (no rad was there either)
-Quest rewards (nope rad didn't show up here either)
-Dungeon/Raid rewards (Ya they overlap here)

Seriously by your logic no new stat could possibly be added to the game, to make it more complex or re-balanced in anyway without it being radiance. This stat is on all sorts of gear, and is no where near as critical to success as the doomsayers are fearing. The biggest place I noticed this stat actually changing the game was that trivial (grey text) bad guys were always hit by skills.

[Wanderv]

I wonder do ppl who claims that finesse is like radiance read this thread? Or they just read first post and then angrily write their foundless thoughts?

I played in beta and saw that finesse is another offensive rating stat like critical rating or offence rating. You can see this stat on many items like any other rating stat.

Anyway all these questions and concerns were asked in this thread. So before post just read the thread and stop posting senseless texts for anyone who was in beta.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I wonder do ppl who claims that finesse is like radiance read this thread?.

Or maybe once bitten, twice shy?

[Vardiel]

This is a bit sidetrack, but not too far.. I think.


The reason for Finesse to be introduced? I want to know this. I assume that it is :

a) Meant as a "soft gate" for raids. Do we need this? People with lousy gear can enter Watcher raid currently. Can they survive it, even knowing the tactics? I found out the hard way: no they can't or at least not easily. This is all the gating we need, IMO.

b) Meant as another stat. With all the critical ratings, offense ratings and critical defense, mitigations... ugh! I thought there were already more than enough stats that one needed to keep an eye out for. Maybe I was wrong, maybe Finesse is designed to more easily manage PvE (and/or PvMP) balance.


So, what exactly is Finesse mean for? My money's on raid gating.

[Santa_Claw]

Finesse is not a gate. Unless you count morale, power, melee/tactical/ranged offense ad pretty much every other stat as a gate.

With the current version there is simply no room for gating anything with finesse because even green world drops have it. The new raid set has 2 pieces with 996 the best crafted stuff has 936 thats 50 a piece world drops have something of around 850. Let's say there are items with finesse for all 15 item slots (I am pretty sure there aren't) even with the 150 finesse difference form world drop armor (Jewelry has only a few hundred finesse to begin with) thats 15*150=2250. So the difference between a fully equipped raider with the best instance drops and a casual player with quest rewards and some crafted items around 2000 finesse max probably far less. Its a reduction of about 6% of the enemy B/P/E. Please tell me how you can gate content with 6% difference.