Tracking an Old Goat

[Coledar]

I'm getting hung up on the superior and condescending tone of the Dev's reply. The flippant way he just says "read the quests" implies that my wife and I have done something wrong. In reality, the quest chain is relatively unique (given the number of standard NPC quest givers there are in Dunland) and novel for those of us who didn't go back to Annuminas when it was revamped for the F2P crowd. I'm going to give them until the first hotfix, when they're adding the instances that have been a hallmark for every expansion before Isengard. If nothing is said about this deed / quest combination, then I'm most likely going to take my business elsewhere. I know that I could technically still play without paying Turbine, but I would be walking away completely out of principle. You shouldn't treat customers this way.

[hucklebarry]

However, from my eyes, the intent of this deed is quite clear:

To punish those who do not 'read' quests.
To punish those who 'blitz' content.
To punish completionists.

I don't agree that the error is on the user's side... but I also don't agree that there was evil intent.

As many have mentioned, reading the text isn't the cure-all. It was read. It still made sense within the Lotro universe to click next when there were no more quests visible. It also made sense more quests could come as long as you finished what you had. It also makes sense that since the locations were a little unforgiving, that this should be revisited. that dev post was early on... hopefully they see that the user base didn't completely get the intended meaning of the quest and they can possibly alter it.

The intent, I believe, was good. It just needs some tweaking. While no one was intentionally punished... the people that suffer are the ones that couldn't read the mind of the developer and know that future quests existed from this guy after you turned in a couple and felt like you were done.

I think there are ways to work this kind of concept into the game, but it starts with communicating design intent to the player base.

Its not like I stole from a widow to evoke a negative story arch. I loved the choice made in the winter festival. That was a nice way to provide options and permanent rewards to reinforce the decisions. This quest is NOTHING like that. It just slams the door and says "you didn't read". (even though I read )

[probitas]

Turbine has gone to a lot of trouble by adding map markers and quest pointers to assist people in completing quests, and even deeds can be added to the quest list on the screen. Also, all quests are tied to deeds in one way or another. The issue however isn't how deeds and quests are linked. The issue is how people are informed about the existence of quests. Hidden deeds are normal for this game, but they can be discovered and completed without prior knowledge of their existence. Hidden quests however are not normal. Normally anyone with a quest has a nice big ring over their head informing all about possible content.

These hidden quests that do not explain their existence or offer any information about how to find them are simply unacceptable IMO. Especially since they tie into other deeds that can no longer be completed. There is NO way for anyone to have known of them, except perhaps beta testers that were aware of them. I don't remember this issue being announced in the open as a problem, so have to conclude it's meant to work like this. How is that fun? This isn't a raid or fellowship instance where you are gated by the raid itself, that makes sense. These are open solo quests in public areas where they should be 'easy' for people to find and finish. It's not very intuitive to design it like that.

Anyone that finished the deed without beta information available was lucky, and the warnings do not explain there are more quests. That warning is there even when there are none left to do in the starter newbie area. So it's not really a good thing to hold up as a way to inform people about whether more quests are available or not.

I am hopeful they put the quests back on him so we can properly get them the way practically every quest in the game is made available, from a list of quests available to him. From a strictly story line approach, why would he not tell you, hey, we need to go here and check this, right up front? The way it's done could mess with the roleplayers even. Without clues to the proper approach, how are we as players supposed to know anything about the game. This is like quest by lottery.

***I would like to add that I am short just the one quest, and that because completing the other quests didn't involve having to scour the area looking for the mobs in question. If it is required you be in an area to do something, then mobs should be placed to further that intent. If however it's meant to be hidden, and hard to find it, then it should not be tied to a deed, to further remind you that you were unable to finish it. That's kicking someone when they're down. Any other area I could go back and do quests and deeds that I haven't completed. This is a first for me.

[Reniannen]

Anyone that finished the deed without beta information available was lucky, and the warnings do not explain there are more quests. That warning is there even when there are none left to do in the starter newbie area. So it's not really a good thing to hold up as a way to inform people about whether more quests are available or not.

The deed was a big clue but I guess the biggest plus for myself was that I'm familiar with Orchalwë's mission

I am hopeful they put the quests back on him so we can properly get them the way practically every quest in the game is made available, from a list of quests available to him. From a strictly story line approach, why would he not tell you, hey, we need to go here and check this, right up front? The way it's done could mess with the roleplayers even. Without clues to the proper approach, how are we as players supposed to know anything about the game. This is like quest by lottery.

Does a tour guide spill everything out to you at once? Or do you yourself write everything down? No, you expect certain things to come back to you once you look at them. "Ah yes! Those traps over there! We should get rid of them."

More quests like these, please. (But the "activation spots" could use some tweaking - I was following the road and though I've seen the traps I needed to go deep in the forest to pop the quest up)

[probitas]

The deed was a big clue but I guess the biggest plus for myself was that I'm familiar with Orchalwë's mission


Does a tour guide spill everything out to you at once? Or do you yourself write everything down? No, you expect certain things to come back to you once you look at them. "Ah yes! Those traps over there! We should get rid of them."

More quests like these, please. (But the "activation spots" could use some tweaking - I was following the road and though I've seen the traps I needed to go deep in the forest to pop the quest up)

Are you comparing an MMO quest giver to a paid tour guide? I hope not. Guides that don't offer all their knowledge up front usually don't last long, because that's what they are paid to do. You were sent to help this man, so he should tell you up front about everything he wants help with. Instead he's mum about it all. That is poor story writing in my opinion. (I hope this isn't an indication that they are going to start selling quests individually in the store)

[Reniannen]

Are you comparing an MMO quest giver to a paid tour guide? I hope not. Guides that don't offer all their knowledge up front usually don't last long, because that's what they are paid to do. You were sent to help this man, so he should tell you up front about everything he wants help with. Instead he's mum about it all. That is poor story writing in my opinion. (I hope this isn't an indication that they are going to start selling quests individually in the store)

You must've met some strange tour guides. If the guide tells you everything at once then a) you don't need him for the rest of tour and b) you'll forget what he told you halfway through.

[probitas]

You must've met some strange tour guides. If the guide tells you everything at once then a) you don't need him for the rest of tour and b) you'll forget what he told you halfway through.

The TOUR GUIDE takes you along a path he has selected before hand, and guides you along with relevant data as each area is entered. They also lead the way, not follow you around like you know what you are doing, as this is the first time for everyone except beta testers, so we don't know and can hardy be expected to realize what is happening if we miss something.

This quest giver is not a tour guide, but he also doesn't help you to help him. That's counter productive when you want help. It seems likely it's meant to cause problems for people. If it's not intentional to cause those problems, then it's likely to be addressed next update. This is not the only NPC who doesn't offer proper information to complete tasks, there is that Captain note quest that points you to the entirely wrong camp. And that IS a bug.

I will add too that if the developer really wanted people to be able to complete these deeds and quests, they would have designed it so it would happen, even if the warning comes stating clearly that so-and-so looks like he has more things for you to do. But instead we just get the same warning we get back at the newbie zone. When people don't see quest rings, as that is what we are all programmed to look for, we can hardly be expected to not think we are done.

[Lurkerinthemist]

Here's why this is NOT a good idea, nor a cool concept (to the people who are claiming it is).

#1. It has no consideration for the STEALTH class (i.e. the Burglar). We get a nifty skill at lv 70 that allows us a 100% crit from stealth. Now I have this Ranger who's about as stealthy as a fully-geared Dwarf, screaming, "ELENDIL!" every time we see an Orc. No chance to wind up the 'perfect kill' with Andreg following you around.

#2. Allow us to, for a second, insert the semblance of 'realism' into the equation of the 'making of' this quest line... We are going to enter the world of Middle-Earth through the eyes of Gnex, and explore his conversation with Andreg. Note: The location of the Orc Mischief quest activation point is as follows - 81.6S 12.4W

Andreg: Greetings, Gnex! Saeradan has asked that we scout the Gravenwood for any potential dangers. I have outlined four key areas on your map that we should explore.
Gnex (currently watching an Orc pass by not forty meters to the north): You sure we're just supposed to scout? No culling the servants of the Enemy?
Andreg: Saeradan was very specific.
<Gnex shrugs in acceptance> (After 6 Orcs and 4 hounds, the pair arrive at 81.4S 12.3W)
Gnex: Andreg, you are certain we should not be collecting trinkets from these servants of the Enemy to present to Saeradan?
Andreg: Quite, continue along the path I outlined, Gnex.
<Gnex gets waylaid by a rare node of ore> (Gnex is now standing at 81.6S 12.4W)
Andreg: Gnex! I have noticed a high amount of Orc tracks in the area. I believe it would be wise if we culled their numbers and gave them cause to fear the Gravenwood!
Gnex: ...You're sure there aren't any other enemies we should be culling along with the Orcs?
<Andreg nods emphatically>

<Later, at Saeradan's camp>
Andreg: Well done, Gnex! Now, before I depart, know that any and all tasks I have given you will be void upon my exit.
Gnex: Err...Yes. I am positive I have done all you have requested.
Andreg: Very, well. Thank you for your assistance!

<Gnex returns to Saeradan, who stares in confusion at the fact that the Burglar has not culled the hounds lurking in the area>
(Gnex returns to Andreg in both confusion and outrage).
Gnex: Andreg! I thought you told me that Saeradan only required we kill the Orcs and scout the immediate area? Why do I now have a note from the Ranger requesting we do FOUR more tasks?!
Andreg: To send feedback regarding the game or submit ideas that you would like to see implemented in the future, please visit http://www.turbine.com/support and click on the flag appropriate to the language you would like to provide feedback in. Then click the “Support Center” tab, followed by “Submit Feedback”. Although you may not receive a response due to the large volume of feedback we receive, all feedback is read and taken into consideration by the appropriate teams.
Gnex: ...

<Berephon appears beside Gnex>
Berephon: Clearly you have not read the quests given. Nor do you play this game as it is meant to be played!
<Gnex's head explodes>

Now...This is how it SHOULD have gone!

Andreg: Greetings Gnex, here is a list of the tasks requested by Saeradan for us to perform before arriving at his camp. Should you need my assistance, merely sound the whistle and I will return to guide you.

And, of course, I would do all seven tasks and be rewarded with the Failtacular deed forever being banished from my deed log (or at least hidden behind the mystical Completed button).

I know this may seem a little dramatic but, honestly? I killed at least fifteen Orcs before Andreg begged me to kill ten more. How is this a 'cool' concept? It makes no sense in regards to both realism AND lore (might as well chuck common sense into there also).

Now, I've read every post in this thread, and most of the suggestions to fix the problem are awesome. Although, why make it complex with scrying pools or repeatables? Just add all seven quests to the stationary Andreg at his rock, and it's end of problem.
And, obviously, these quests would take part before Andreg kamikaze's in the following quest.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer the straight-up point and shoot deeds. Locations, slayer, mass quests, etc.. etc...
No need to get all fancy with the location-given quests and the giant CANNOT COMPLETE stamp plastered to it once you fail to find all of the locations.

Now, if this questline had NO DEED tethered to it, I would be on board, giving thumbs up and cheering the concept onward. Alas that it must plague my deed log with its fail...

Made me laugh, thanks!

Why would I need/want a fail NPC to help with easy kill/collect quests? Especially one that goes off and aggros everything. I hate pets. Especially NPC pets. Way too many NPC pets in RoI. And I hate that because I'm duoing we each get clones. Really weird. Immersion-killer and I normally don't care about immersion. But I can't fathom why my partner and I each get one of these fail NPCs. I was like, Oh ugh, another one of these stupid clone quests. Hurry up and get through this so we can get rid of these fail pets. Oh look, done all his quests so must be able to get rid of the pets now.

Am I correct in reading that I was supposed to have some experience with this type of quest giver because the revamp of Annuminas has a quest giver that's similar or something? I've played for almost 4 years - I never went back and played the revamp, why would I? So yeah, there's me, stuck at 4/7 for the deed.

[Winena]

I'm getting hung up on the superior and condescending tone of the Dev's reply. The flippant way he just says "read the quests" implies that my wife and I have done something wrong. In reality, the quest chain is relatively unique (given the number of standard NPC quest givers there are in Dunland) and novel for those of us who didn't go back to Annuminas when it was revamped for the F2P crowd. I'm going to give them until the first hotfix, when they're adding the instances that have been a hallmark for every expansion before Isengard. If nothing is said about this deed / quest combination, then I'm most likely going to take my business elsewhere. I know that I could technically still play without paying Turbine, but I would be walking away completely out of principle. You shouldn't treat customers this way.

The devs in this game are typical. Because they wrote the content, they assume that it is clear from a 3rd party perspective. Once again, they demonstrate their complete lack of ability to get over their own egos and step into the shoes of their customers. I started this quest extremely late at night and continued it a few days later. I didn't catch that a deed was attached, so I completed everything listed for the guy in the area he was in. I didn't realize until I was helping my wife through the same area that there were several more deed quests to finish by dragging the main guy around. Once again, it's really not about making the game a quality experience so much as tricking players into missing something and slamming the door behind them. For over a year I was told by GMs that quests existed in the shire to get the Gift Mathom despite the fact there were none put in upon the release of the Gift Mathom quest. They are liars or ignorant of their own play content, but I paid a lot when the game came out, so I will continue to play despite them. I will probably get a warning not to pick on them, but the truth is the truth no matter how you slice it.

[GodzillaX8]

I was even aware of the trouble with Andreg and managed to miss Hunting the Pack and Lost Caws anyway, despite having gotten all the rest of them.

This better be fixed in the next patch so that we can always do these quests. There is no reason to have him follow you around while you do them, or for them to be unable to ever do again once you turn in a certain one.

Edit: There actually 4 discoverables, contrary to my original comment.

...so you don't even know how many "discoverable" quests there are, and you expect us to be able to find them?

[probitas]

I think the issue raises another ugly gaming point. I know completionists who delete characters when they fail to finish the undying deed. They want to complete it all. It may seem extreme, but I wonder how many of these types of players might toss a large amount of time they spent because of this issue? As a result of that, there are less people at end game, if that person even comes back to the game. I also never went to Annunimas except for the EPIC and area quest count, not for rep, because for one thing, I didn't need to, I could go to Moria for that end game content lead up to SOM. And since I don't troll the internet for every little thing, how could I know there was a quest similar to that one in Dunland? It's a bit like the way the law treats citizens, ignorance is no excuse, then they clap the irons on you. But that's for criminals, not gamers.

When did not knowing everything become a liability in a game like an MMO? As I stated earlier, the whole game is full of things you can go back to via pools or quest givers, even raids and instances can be repeated with the new skirmish system. What's the deal with creating a quest that can lock you out of traits and deeds? Does it make people think more? Maybe, HOWEVER, before the advent of quest pointers and quest guides in the map, the quest had all the information required to let you KNOW where you had to go. I assumed that having this jerk off ranger around that having killed all the mobs we encountered should have triggered any quests remaining. Or at least I would have to follow HIM, so he could 'show' me where he needed the help and the areas needing searching.

I'm going to take a wait and see approach, since until this issue is resolved, I'm not going to use the character anymore, there isn't anything to do with it anyway until I can try for first age legendaries, I'm not wasting my time on the 2nd age middle man. I'll bring up my RK or Hunter, once I figure out how to use them yet again, and see if the quest actually does tell you how to pop it, or if that's just more DC. Frankly, I'm pretty certain that if the quest did have a guide, the quest guide should point the way, but since other quests in the quest pack don't work properly in that regard, I'll bet this one was broken as well. I don't think it would be fair to hold any gamer responsible for a broken quest system.

EDIT: reread an earlier post to think about what it said....if you find the scout camp before you complete the 7 quests, you can never finish them? What about grabbing pots, selling, getting a legendary reforged, all those things people would normally do while adventuring. I don't know if that statement is true, but if it is, then normal gaming behavior is being punished, let alone not reading the quest info, assuming it was clear enough to figure out the intent without having had to deal with that so called Annunimas NPC. Since when are people required to start something, then finish it then and there. What if the character DIES and rezzes near the camp, then what...same thing as the undying deed? And no warning before that happens either? It's nice to know though that at least the beta people knew about it and likely got it done. I bet some of them read the beta forum to figure that out too. Where was our posted information about this guy prior to doing it?

[probitas]

What is even more silly, that if you do not complete that deed you lose a chance to increase your Honor virtue. I mean come on, at least do not have a deed like that stoping you from getting a virtue pt.

Turbine does sell traits in the store, remember. You can buy it. Just saying.

[MikieM84]

I don't normally post on the forums but thought I'd weigh in on this topic. I've been following this thread since the first page and have to thank the OP for posting this issue. My main wasn't so lucky, but I'm making sure my alts get all the quests in this quest line. Like many other players have voiced, I too read the quests, but still missed the activation of one. Thought I had done all the quests Andreg gave me when the warning came up, so I turned in the whistle. A little frusterating because I can't go back and complete the deed, but I did like the basic idea of it.

The way this quest line is given is new for me, and I personally enjoyed it, however the implementation (integration with the deed, trait, etc) could use some work imo. As someone else stated, the VAST majority of quests in this game aren't hidden. There might be a few that are. But from the intro areas to Moria we've looked for big gold rings above an NPC if there's content and quests to be done. We're also used to deeds being hidden and having to discover them for ourselves. This quest line is the exact opposite in terms of the quests, as they're hidden with the deed. I don't think this is a bad idea in and of itself, as we just have to quest a little differently. What I do think is a bad idea is not allowing us to complete the deed as we are in every other area in the game (with the exception of the one new quest line in annuminas).

There are so many factors (real life and individual play style) that could get in the way of successfully completing this deed as it stands. One example, and this happened on my main, is that I picked up the first quest from the guy at the campfire (forget his name) on my horse. I read it and saw the quest destination on my map and didn't even think about using the whistle to call Andreg. It wasn't until I was halfway to Saeradan when I called him and saw he had two other quests for me to do. Since I had passed the location for 'hunting the pack' already, I didn't know to go back and wasn't able to complete it. Got all the other ones ok but just had that one that I missed. Another example, and I'm this way sometimes, is someone might like turning in all of his/her quests at once. If you do this for this quest line, you won't see the deed appear until you're all the way to Saeradan and could spend literally hours trying to figure out how to complete it if you missed a location.

There's also another issue that I experienced today on one of my alts. Not sure if anyone else has had this happen to them, but at various points in the Gravenwood, Andreg would have a quest available that would be unreadable. A quest ring would appear above his head, but I couldn't talk to him to get it. Happened a few times and I had to run/ride around for a while before I was finally get the quest from him. For someone who doesn't know the situation surrounding Andreg, he could completely dismiss one of the quest rings as a bug or something if this happened to him.

Again I think this is an interesting idea for getting quests, but the implementation still needs some work. The best solutions I've read for this situation (so far) are:
1) Have Andreg give all the quests at the beginning, and then if you choose to continue the last one with the red warning without having completed the others, that's your own fault. Or,
2) Allow us to get any quests we might have missed from the stationary Andreg after we turn in the whistle. Or,
3) Get rid of the deed.

[Georgee]

Problems with this deed I experienced:

First character (deed completionist):
- Missed the deed until 2-3 days after. The reason was that once the deed started and pop up appeared the area quest deed also appeared and clicking on the pop up showed quest deed (pop up might existed from before). Only way i could see it on time was to read the text amongst the others: quest xp, ixp, LIs leveling, a mob atacking after handing in quest...
- The red text is a bit confusing. Previous similar quests stated once accepted/completed will have xyz drawback on other content. Since this was a in progress quest i understand it will lock the other quests after it is completed, not after it is continued. I also clicked continue for the quest ring to go away and go on with the other inprogress quests.
- I now have 3-4 quests pending on deed, 2 of which i completed but could not handin because the continue quest was continued before handing in these 2.

Second Character:
- I was aware about this issue but the problem was that once the lockout quest reaches the continue step the quest ring is always on. This means i had to check every 10-20 m the npc if there was a new quest. I had to ask in /advice where the pending deed quests were starting since i could not spend hours looking the them.
- Finished it on second character but the way it is implemented it is time consuming and becomes annoying to completed without asking for help. (orc and trap quests are out of the way for the scout quest.


Recommendations:
- Change lockout quest to lockout only once it is finished, or remove the continue step. Once all locations have been scout complete the quest objectives and sent us to the handin npc. Having the continue quest ring active always makes us miss other quest ring appearing.
- Make quests appear while in the scout path or after a mob kill.
- Also increase the radious from a location a quest is activated. There might be a mob on the road and move a bit to the left/right to avoid it (or go get skarn/wood and not return to the exact path i left, same if ranger goes wild on nearby mobs), afterall scouting usually means avoid mobs. Moving a bit out of the scout path can miss a quest activation point (traps??).

[sabeare]

À lot of plagers have reporter their experiences with "tracking an old goat". Maybe ihave missend something, but I haven't seen à replay from Turbine. The general question is, as I may rephrase it, can we finishnthe quest sequence to get the deed. Please Turbine gave is an answer.

[Reniannen]

The TOUR GUIDE takes you along a path he has selected before hand, and guides you along with relevant data as each area is entered. They also lead the way, not follow you around like you know what you are doing, as this is the first time for everyone except beta testers, so we don't know and can hardy be expected to realize what is happening if we miss something.

This quest giver is not a tour guide, but he also doesn't help you to help him. That's counter productive when you want help. It seems likely it's meant to cause problems for people. If it's not intentional to cause those problems, then it's likely to be addressed next update. This is not the only NPC who doesn't offer proper information to complete tasks, there is that Captain note quest that points you to the entirely wrong camp. And that IS a bug.

I will add too that if the developer really wanted people to be able to complete these deeds and quests, they would have designed it so it would happen, even if the warning comes stating clearly that so-and-so looks like he has more things for you to do. But instead we just get the same warning we get back at the newbie zone. When people don't see quest rings, as that is what we are all programmed to look for, we can hardly be expected to not think we are done.

Yes, the guide tells you about place B when you arrive at place B, that's what I was referring to. If you never encounter the traps then it is pointless to talk about the traps. Your mission is to scout the path to the camp, if you encounter something that might need to be dealt with Andreg asks you for help. How does that not add to the realism?

I do get that people are frustrated (and the execution of this particular arc isn't perfect) but they will always be if you're introducing something new to the game no matter how many dev diaries and pop-ups you create some people will miss them. The only certain way around it is to never do new things.

[LadyDena]

This better be fixed in the next patch so that we can always do these quests

How can this be fixed if they don't acknowledge that it is a design mistake in the first place?

These guys didn't fix this when numerous people pointed out the problem with the npc in Annuminas. And the dev's condescending and flippant response in this thread also indicated they think the problem is entirely with the players. The only thing we can do is take these kinds of things into consideration the next time we have a purchasing decision to make.

[Blaize_EU]

Bugger. I've only just found this thread when I went back to my main to see what deeds I still needed. Yes, I read the quest when I got it, but it wasn't clear (to me) exactly what needed doing and it really wasn't clear that I'd never be able to finish the deed. I am a completionist and this is going to bug me for a looooooong time

[Hirumildir]

This does need fixing...

I expected to get the extra quests from Saeradan and the other ranger who are explicitly stated in the deed description. Why doesn't this red text tell you that there are 7 quests to be completed. That way people would KNOW that Andreg gives all the quests for the deed and not only the ones you have activated at the specific moment. It was never clear to me that I had to be on a very specific spot to activate a specific quest. Now when I got the flashy red text I wasn't sure and scouted the internet. Just my luck the forums were down and there was no other info I could find. Finished it and BAM! I'm out of it!

Some great solutions are given here, it wouldn't harm anyone to pick a solotion and implement it. I wouldn't care if you'd say it's us players to blame, but just do something about it so everyone can be happy! *cheers*

[Kheld_GB]

Today I am now stuck on 4/7 quests. I did see the red text and I checked to make sure no Andreg quests were running before ggoing to Saerenden.

Now I cant complete the deed.

Nice job Turbine QA, very nice job. Give me a ring & ill tell you how to tie your shoes properly.

[probitas]

Yes, the guide tells you about place B when you arrive at place B, that's what I was referring to. If you never encounter the traps then it is pointless to talk about the traps. Your mission is to scout the path to the camp, if you encounter something that might need to be dealt with Andreg asks you for help. How does that not add to the realism?

I do get that people are frustrated (and the execution of this particular arc isn't perfect) but they will always be if you're introducing something new to the game no matter how many dev diaries and pop-ups you create some people will miss them. The only certain way around it is to never do new things.

Well for one thing, and it's pretty big, the path to the camp is not clearly marked and can EASILY be lost due to nodes, mobs, etc. Once a quest pops, it can take you far away from where you were, and like all other quests, once I'm told to do something, I go do it, I don't lolligag my way to the place of action, I hie myself there to do the deed. I'm certainly not looking for other quest to pop along the way since my experience with the game has NOT included that. So I'm not at fault here, nor is anyone else either.

If you go sell something, reforge, if you go do anything else, even a quick call for skirmish or raid, it's easy for you to lose the train of thought or lose sight of the total picture. Heck, I had so many things popping I stopped clicking on them, it was interrupting the combat. I don't like waiting for dread to dissipate. And I don't like being told that the gaming standard has suddenly been altered with no warning at all.

It was obviously poorly implemented, there should have been a disclaimer at least BEFORE you started it. And the ranger should have lead the way, like others that have asked for help. If this meant people got the deeds and quests done, isn't that what you want? Why design content that people can't ever access. When I GM a game, I WANT people to engage what I create. I don't bury it under layers of obfuscation.

[mjk47]

Well for one thing, and it's pretty big, the path to the camp is not clearly marked and can EASILY be lost due to nodes, mobs, etc. Once a quest pops, it can take you far away from where you were, and like all other quests, once I'm told to do something, I go do it, I don't lolligag my way to the place of action, I hie myself there to do the deed. I'm certainly not looking for other quest to pop along the way since my experience with the game has NOT included that. So I'm not at fault here, nor is anyone else either.

Plus you need to take into account Andreg's really annoying habit of attacking everything is sight, which is pretty much guaranteed to

a) drag you all over the place getting him out of trouble

b) make you very disinclined to spend any more time in his company that can be avoided

Andreg is certainly not the companion you would chhose for a sight-seeing wander round Dunaland.

There is one very simple change that will fix this. Rather than the final quest saying that you will lose any uncompleted quests, it just needs to say that you will no longer be able to complete the Tracking an Old Goat deed. This would direct you exactly where you need to be in order to check whether there are any more quests that you haven't discovered yet. it isn't rocket science.

[Tostgrim]

It reminds me of a team leader I worked with a few years back on an application for one of the company's customers. As usual when creating a user interface there are a number of ways to skin a cat... the dev team had come up with three viable options and the team leader had chosen one of them that he prefered. When I suggested that we let the client decide which option they wanted his response was "I'm not letting the f*****g customers decide how my application is going to look."

I think I see echos of that here... "I'm not letting the players decide how they play my game."

You need to take a step back Turbine and introduce this in a more structured and heralded way... especially when you tie it to deeds. Your dev team might be having a snigger but you've p****d a lot of players off.

[Alex_Knight]

I was also one of the people who were unable to complete this quest/ deed chain. And like most of the others I was sorely disappointed by this. My issue was like everyone else, where the information given was misleading.

A couple of points:

1.) Not having "In a Dark and Lonely Forest" pop up immedately after turning in Eyes in the Forest would have helped, as I wouldn't have clicked continue instead of closing the window. (As a note there: I was under the impression that it wouldn't take the whistle away until I turned the quest into Saerdan, not as soon as I clicked "Continue.")

2.) A lot of people compare this to the Orichalwe missions in Annuminas. There's a slightly false comparison here. Yes, you have quests that can go away permanently. Yes you have an NPC following you around. That's where the similarity ends. The Annuminas quests aren't tied to a deed. More importantly, the main quest Orichalwe gives out takes you all over Annuminas, not just to *one* specific location. In addition, his 'bonus' quests pop up when you enter the area of the city you are in, not a tiny hotspot. Sorry, missed one commonality. Both have their controversies as well, see "Monuments of Angmar." (I think was the quest line...)

I don't mind innovation and 'trying to do something different'. I liked the Orichalwe quests (even if I never did finish the quest line due to the aformentioned quest...) I liked the "carry your quest giver" chains such as the ledger in the Starkmoors or the Journal in Evendim. But I think this one has too many issues with it, least of which is the "tracker" deed.

[Reniannen]

I was also one of the people who were unable to complete this quest/ deed chain. And like most of the others I was sorely disappointed by this. My issue was like everyone else, where the information given was misleading.

A couple of points:

1.) Not having "In a Dark and Lonely Forest" pop up immedately after turning in Eyes in the Forest would have helped, as I wouldn't have clicked continue instead of closing the window. (As a note there: I was under the impression that it wouldn't take the whistle away until I turned the quest into Saerdan, not as soon as I clicked "Continue.")

It says "advancing the quest" which is what Continue does, although yeah it could be clearer.

2.) A lot of people compare this to the Orichalwe missions in Annuminas. There's a slightly false comparison here. Yes, you have quests that can go away permanently. Yes you have an NPC following you around. That's where the similarity ends. The Annuminas quests aren't tied to a deed. More importantly, the main quest Orichalwe gives out takes you all over Annuminas, not just to *one* specific location. In addition, his 'bonus' quests pop up when you enter the area of the city you are in, not a tiny hotspot. Sorry, missed one commonality. Both have their controversies as well, see "Monuments of Angmar." (I think was the quest line...)

I don't mind innovation and 'trying to do something different'. I liked the Orichalwe quests (even if I never did finish the quest line due to the aformentioned quest...) I liked the "carry your quest giver" chains such as the ledger in the Starkmoors or the Journal in Evendim. But I think this one has too many issues with it, least of which is the "tracker" deed.

I has been said that the deed exists for the sole purpose of letting people know there is more to do (funny that people didn't complain that much about the arc that doesn't tell them at all about other quests).
Anyway, the road through the forest takes you through a good portion of Gravenwood (but not all quests pop up on the road, I give you that) and Orchalwë's quest do pop up on tiny hotspots (the dead in cages? you need to stand next to the first staircase at Menelband, or the fallen rangers near Minathranc - you need to stand almost on top of the corpses) not to mention Annúminas is several times the size of Gravenwood.