Never Surrender (still) bugged in Update 5

[IyvanEU]

Before I start, I just wanted to say the Warden HoT / partial BPE buffs have made a world of difference - I took Iyvan out in the Moors today and was able to hold my own against 2 high ranked wargs, took one of them down and nearly the other one before the other came back from the graveyard and finished me!

Anyway, it seems that Never Surrender still has that annoying bug where it doesn't proc all the time. It happened in the moors again. I get the feeling this is probably a known issue that there isn't an easy fix for - I suspect that's why the morale trigger was increased to 10% instead of 5% to reduce the window of the problem occuring. Just thought I'd mention it again though in case it's slipped through the net.

[Morat]

A kinmate went out into the moors and experienced the same thing.

[Morcanden]

It's weird that this is still occurring since the Captain skill Last Stand is so similar. I suspect the issue is that if you take a mortal blow (one that drops you the full 10% remaining to 0% or below) inbetween the time where your skill procs (and therefore invulnerability is removed) and the heal is received -- which may actually be a significant amount of time on a lagged server -- there is a window for a death. In the meantime, the best you can probably do is just bump your vit and +morale up as high as it can go -- make the 10% as big as you can -- if you plan on relying on NS somewhat regularly.

[thunderchickn]

I can confirm this as well, already /bugged it. Mine is working at about 60% success rate in the new raid, I'm nowhere near the Moors.

I agree completely with Mord, the time between the death immunity dropping off and the heal applying must be significant enough to allow death in that time span (since I am sitting at 1 morale for an uncomfortably long time any amount of time will be enough to allow an attack to kill me).

[Liltaro]

Must resist...
Nooooo! My favored response to such things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COSeM2EVkDc

[IyvanEU]

It's weird that this is still occurring since the Captain skill Last Stand is so similar. I suspect the issue is that if you take a mortal blow (one that drops you the full 10% remaining to 0% or below) inbetween the time where your skill procs (and therefore invulnerability is removed) and the heal is received -- which may actually be a significant amount of time on a lagged server -- there is a window for a death. In the meantime, the best you can probably do is just bump your vit and +morale up as high as it can go -- make the 10% as big as you can -- if you plan on relying on NS somewhat regularly.

I get the feeling you're right - I only have anecdotal evidence to back this up, but it happened a lot more often when RoI first came out, and only happened occasionally since, until yesterday - which would imply server load / lag is a factor.

That being the case, perhaps a solution is that instead of the buff being removed and then the heal applied, the application of the heal removes the buff.

[Orion]

Hrm...

Saw nothing like this in testing. In fact, this was fine. There must be some other race condition happening here. Might be cause to redraft the skill again. I will keep you in the loop.

[Sezneg]

Before I start, I just wanted to say the Warden HoT / partial BPE buffs have made a world of difference - I took Iyvan out in the Moors today and was able to hold my own against 2 high ranked wargs, took one of them down and nearly the other one before the other came back from the graveyard and finished me!

Anyway, it seems that Never Surrender still has that annoying bug where it doesn't proc all the time. It happened in the moors again. I get the feeling this is probably a known issue that there isn't an easy fix for - I suspect that's why the morale trigger was increased to 10% instead of 5% to reduce the window of the problem occuring. Just thought I'd mention it again though in case it's slipped through the net.

"I can 1v2 high ranked players again, all is well".

[Erasluindor]

Hrm...

Saw nothing like this in testing. In fact, this was fine. There must be some other race condition happening here. Might be cause to redraft the skill again. I will keep you in the loop.

Can we PLEASE get a hotfix for this soon? We have been nerfed long enough already. NS is now pretty vital to our survivibility as a panic button. Please dont make us wait till U6 for this.
P.S. Can the cooldown be lessened?

[Erasluindor]

The current warden is pretty BA again! Orion thanks for all your dedication

[IyvanEU]

Hrm...

Saw nothing like this in testing. In fact, this was fine. There must be some other race condition happening here. Might be cause to redraft the skill again. I will keep you in the loop.

If it is some kind of timing issue which is impacted by server performance, it could be that the loads in testing weren't as high as those in live, especially immediately after an update. Thanks for looking into it anyway Orion.

[Tolfast]

Could you not make NS have a last stand effect until the heal triggers?

[Valmarill]

So you are hitting it before you hit the 10% correct? Because you can hit it at 30 or even 40% and it goes off when you hit the marker. I used it when soloing White Hand Orcs in Moria and had no issues with it. Perhaps it's just bugged in the Moors?

[MashtaJurioz]

Hrm...

Saw nothing like this in testing. In fact, this was fine. There must be some other race condition happening here. Might be cause to redraft the skill again. I will keep you in the loop.

IT bugged for me a lot in Dragnakh (troll) tier 2 when he did his AOE attack.

[Balagast]

IT bugged for me a lot in Dragnakh (troll) tier 2 when he did his AOE attack.

I did Dragnakh on Monday T2 and while the stuns and crazy radius of the AOE is annoying I didn't have any issues with Never Surrender. I specifically used it at the "pillar" when our healer was running out of power and it saved me on the pounding AOE.

[horus418]

No issues for me with NS, having used it many times so far.

[Mysterion]

Is anyone upset at the frequency you have to use this skill? How did we ever survive pre-roi without this skill? I know that warden quickslots are pretty sparse, but this skill has made it to the main bar now, (=) is now NS.

[Nydorewyth]

Is anyone upset at the frequency you have to use this skill? How did we ever survive pre-roi without this skill?

We used to have BPE Yes it is a super useful skill now that we use the Emperor's New Armour.

In a related note, I haven't had any problems with it since Update 5, I have seen myself get down to 1 morale and even 0 morale, not die, then get the heal.

[cmal]

Had this bug twice on me in the moors last night. Basically a raid v one or two people trickling in situation, was trying to disrupt healers so NS was on early in the fight. Don't know if this is connected to stuns or dots at this point.

[imeiz]

So far NS has only failed me once on Dragnakh t2. I was heavily pounded on but not 100% sure if I was stunned or not.

An occation where NS worked that was interesting was kiting foundry bosses. I went really low on morale and took a hit from range, leaving me at 1 morale left. It stayed there for like a second or so before NS triggered, and I only stared at the morale bar and waited (it felt really long ). I guess if I had taken another hit it could've landed before NS heal.

[cuffwin1]

I think people miss the point that if you take a hit at the end of your life that does more than 10 percent and drops you to 0 morale you die...no where does the skill say you cant die or if you die you get healed or anything like that the skill says ...if you fall below 10 percent morale you recover 50 percent morale and power....if you have 20k morale and your sitting at 2500 morale and take a 3k hit with the never surrender buff on you...you will die because you never fell below 10 percent before the killing blow, is this working as intended? I dont know...should this still be adjusted to make it what you all want? maybe so, but the fact is thats not what the skill says and its working exactly as its described on the skill tooltip.

[Murdoche]

Then I would ask why the hell did they even put this skill into play??? I used it twice yesterday and NOT even in the mores and both times it didnt go off at all and i wasn't being hit hard, small pings and stil I died. THe "YOU CAN NOT BE DEFEATED" point means that even if you hit 0 moral you wont be defeated and you will gain back 50% ya right, my butt. Remove the NOT there and then the tool tip will be true. Not only that but before the last update it was working better. They might as well raise it up to 20% because even if you have over 20k moral thats only 2k range. Its not triggering and it should. Its a useless skill to have in a raid because it wont ever go off if you get a boss smacking you down.

[thunderchickn]

I think people miss the point that if you take a hit at the end of your life that does more than 10 percent and drops you to 0 morale you die...no where does the skill say you cant die or if you die you get healed or anything like that the skill says ...if you fall below 10 percent morale you recover 50 percent morale and power....if you have 20k morale and your sitting at 2500 morale and take a 3k hit with the never surrender buff on you...you will die because you never fell below 10 percent before the killing blow, is this working as intended? I dont know...should this still be adjusted to make it what you all want? maybe so, but the fact is thats not what the skill says and its working exactly as its described on the skill tooltip.

This is not correct. You get a "Last Stand" type effect until the heal can apply, no amount of damage will kill you during this time. Sometimes (when there isn't much server lag) you don't see this time in between the heal activating and applying so you don't notice how low you actually get. Any Warden will tell you about the other times though, you can take thousands of damage while sitting at 1 Morale waiting for the heal to go off (which is quite nice unless you encounter the bug below...).

You will not die unless you take damage in that millisecond between the heal "activating" (which removes the "Last Stand" type effect) and "applying" (which is when the morale is actually given to you). During times of high server lag I have a feeling this tiny gap of time is not insignificant as another post in this thread mentions, thus allowing us to die before the heal goes off.

Then I would ask why the hell did they even put this skill into play??? I used it twice yesterday and NOT even in the mores and both times it didnt go off at all and i wasn't being hit hard, small pings and stil I died. THe "YOU CAN NOT BE DEFEATED" point means that even if you hit 0 moral you wont be defeated and you will gain back 50% ya right, my butt. Remove the NOT there and then the tool tip will be true. Not only that but before the last update it was working better. They might as well raise it up to 20% because even if you have over 20k moral thats only 2k range. Its not triggering and it should. Its a useless skill to have in a raid because it wont ever go off if you get a boss smacking you down.

See above. This is not due to the skill being worthless, it's due to a bug in what some speculate to be the time between removing the "Last Stand" invulnerability and actually applying the heal. This is actually more likely to happen if you're taking a lot of tiny hits (rather than a few large hits) because there are more hits that can potentially land in that fraction of a second.

[Glantir]

It's definitely bugged, I activate Never Surrender at the Thangulhad Skirmish. And the Troll Boss kill me with a 10k hit and the NS buff is running on me.