What is new in the store, armors?????

[Ayrolen]

But, as I've said, I'm a fatalist about this. I don't think this community has it in itself to stop this trend. Human nature, industry trends, and basic economics work against us. Slow it? Maybe. But stop it? Not likely. We're like a classic conservative, "standing athwart history yelling 'stop!'". . . but we know in the end the battle is for naught.

Nor do I, unfortunately. I think they have someone at the helm who is a major microtransactions cheerleader and that's the future of this game, like, leave it, or ignore it.

[Ayrolen]

Not at all. A proud, pom-pom waving "fanboy" here. But one who is displeased with both this change of a previously stated policy and the sneaky manner in which it was announced.

/sad nod. Pretty much.

[Macroscian]

Ok. I do realize that many feel strongly about this.

I just think the various changes so far have been for the better and have enabled a larger player base.

Also, how many on the above 32 pages have been here before screaming about quitting and later came back to a changed and more playable game?

[Ronigard]

Lotro will never go free-to-play, the defenders said.

Lotro will never sell relics in the store, the defenders said.

Lotro will never sell any non-cosmetic items that aren't also in the game, the defenders said.

Lotro will never sell armor with stats, the defenders said.

Is it really doom-saying when the doom-sayers were right all along?

This depends greatly on what your definition of 'doom' is. If by 'doom' you mean: moving further and further away from a pure subscription service, then I think 'doom' is a rather odd choice of words.

I would consider 'doom' the end of lotro *or* the end of fun in lotro.

So far, all these 'doom' scenarios have not had that effect on my enjoyment of the game and it has most certainly not killed it.

This latest step has me worried, but to say 'doom' is going too far for me.

It's unsettling, sure. Unpleasant, probably. But I guess we will just have to wait and see how it pans out. I will most probably keep playing (lifetime sub) until any of this deeply changes my experience of the game in a negative way.

So far:

Going free to play - brought in many more people
Relics in store - don't interest me since the stats are frivolous
Non cosmetics not available in-game - I have not yet found a scenario in game where I needed these
Armour with stats in store - ??? No data yet. Just an unsettling feeling of the presence of 'greed'.

[Fin.]

Ok. I do realize that many feel strongly about this.

I just think the various changes so far have been for the better and have enabled a larger player base.

The current playerbase may be larger, but the content is much more unfinished, bugged and often not working as intended.

If this is the price we have to pay for larger playerbase, then I think we should take step back.

Ofc more players=more income for Turbine, so for them everything is ok.

[Ronigard]

I just think the various changes so far have been for the better and have enabled a larger player base.

I agree. But Turbine are not infallible. It could very well be that this is just that one step too far. I think it will not impact the gameplay but it will, I fear, deeply impact the way LOTRO is perceived.

Look at EVE. They almost went under because of bad PR. And their in-game store did not (and never intended to) sell things that impacted gameplay.

Just the perception of greed is a turn-off for many, many people.

And this smells like greed to me.

Again: not something that will impact gameplay. But it seems greedy.

[Celebria]

Also, how many on the above 32 pages have been here before screaming about quitting and later came back to a changed and more mercenary game?

Fixed that for ya.

And yeah, some of us feel strongly that this game is now changed and more buyable (Store) than ever before. Large number of us also feel that junk armor in the Store is only the beginning of more items of the same, more armor and weapons and things that, really, people ought to be getting in instances or crafting. Skirmish gear, for me anyway, is a only slightly better than just plunking down the dough for it.

[LadyDena]

And some people last month were worried that TOR will end up killing LOTRO.

Little did people realize that LOTRO was doing a plenty good job of it on its own.

[cossieuk]

It's lower level gear. Many players have given us feedback that there is a sparcity of gear on the AH at these levels and they wanted an alternative. We're trying to accomodate that.

What about all the player requests in this thread to not go down that road. It seems clear from this thread that a vast majority of forum user are against it and I would guess that would be a good indicator of the entire player base.

Also the poll on CSTM seems to indicate players dont want this to happen.

http://www.casualstrolltomordor.com/...-in-the-store/

[Othniel]

Ok. I do realize that many feel strongly about this.

I just think the various changes so far have been for the better and have enabled a larger player base.

Also, how many on the above 32 pages have been here before screaming about quitting and later came back to a changed and more playable game?

What you say is true, but not in every regard. A prime example of a bad change is the necessity of buying a scroll from the LOTRO store if I want to save the relics from my Legendary Item when I scrap it. I buy things from the store that convenience me from time to time (mostly storage, cosmetic items, and deed accelerators). I refuse to buy relic removal scrolls because they were already in the game and removed so that they could make more money off us. That's not convenience. That's the very spirit of "pay to win." This armour option tastes of the same flavour. There are plenty of options in-game for armour. The problem with the scarcity of low-level equipment in the auction hall is that for what goes into producing it, it's often not worthwhile to the crafter because the profit is so small in relation to the time/effort/expense put into making it. Speaking for myself, I do not see much point in listing non-crit gear because it rarely sells. (Again, personal experience. Others' experiences may be different). What needs to be fixed is the cost of components and time that goes into making Apprentice and Journeyman level crafted gear. I would propose that we make all gear of those levels have a 100% critical success chance (with the required ingredient maybe). That would make it more worthwhile to list on auction. It wouldn't be all that valuable because at those low levels, you go through gear much faster.

[Khafar]

I guess the reason it bothers me is that it is another step away from a 'clean' pay to play model.

It hasn't been a "clean" subscription model for nearly 18 months now, and it never will be again. They have a more "retail" sales model going now, and are almost certainly going to try a wide variety of things over time in order to try and maximize profits, just like any retail business does. The reason I suspect they draw the line below "endgame gear" is because that would do very real damage to many/most people's desire to actually play the game (which would obviously be bad for business -- you cannot sell anything to people who are not playing at all).

And I was lead to believe this was working. They *where* making more money. The game *was* more successful.

I think that they probably are making more money, although I'd bet it's fallen off a fair bit since last January (when they were making 3X the prior revenues). But what matters isn't revenues, it's profits. Are they making lots more profit than they were before? I'm guessing not. They're still looking around for new ways to make more, which is pretty much what you expect for-profit businesses to do. MMOs are a market, and their ability to make profit is limited: charge too much or anger too many customers, and your profit tanks as customers head for greener pastures. Charge too little or allow your costs (e.g. long-term free players) to get out of control, and your profit tanks too. They're trying to find the sweet spot in the middle.

Khafar

[StavroMuellerBeta]

I just think the various changes so far have been for the better and have enabled a larger player base.

Also, how many on the above 32 pages have been here before screaming about quitting and later came back to a changed and more playable game?

I have never threatened to quit, so don't lump me in with that crowd.

Even if the changes are going to make the game better, what about Turbine's statement that they would never bring armor to the store?

What they're selling isn't equivalent to normal crafted gear, it's not equivalent to quest gear, it's not equivalent to crit-crafted gear, it's not even equivalent to the level 25 GB set, it's BETTER than anything else attainable within the game at the same level (assuming this armor is level 25, which is reasonable considering Sapience says it ends in the lower 20s).

At level 30, this armor would be disappointing, but merely a convenience for those who can't attain armor via other means. But this isn't a convenience, this is equivalent of letting players buy a trait to wear armor ten levels above their own.

The current line, as stated by Sapience, is that this armor will be 'low level'. But how long will it be until "more playable" means gear at tier 4? 5? 25? At what point does the gear cross the line from making the game "more playable" into pay-to-win?

My fear isn't that someone else has something better than me, my fear is that with the zone revamps going on, the new and revamped content will require on-level players to have this better gear in order to experience the content at the intended difficulty.

[uw1975]

This is probably also the straw that will break the camel's back for me.

I was one of the believer of the hybrid model, that the F2P would bring new players. And it did, this is undeniable (even though I'm not sure in the long-term there had been much retention)

It is however undeniable that the game has changed, and for us oldies, its soul has changed, and for the worse. Smaller expacs, half bugged, and now the even more intrusive LOTRO store.

It is crystal clear that the low level armor is only a test to see how the community will react, to spearhead prospective higher-level armor.

More than that, I will not be surprised if LOTRO is being used right now as a testing ground for the mechanics of Turbine's alleged new MMO. A new MMO which will be maybe launch with an Hybrid model such as this one.

[SoAndSo]

i dont like this at all.

[StavroMuellerBeta]

This depends greatly on what your definition of 'doom' is. If by 'doom' you mean: moving further and further away from a pure subscription service, then I think 'doom' is a rather odd choice of words.

My use of the word "doom" was purely to mimic the person I was replying to, nothing more.

So far, all these 'doom' scenarios have not had that effect on my enjoyment of the game and it has most certainly not killed it.

Nor should it.

As I said earlier, Turbine will always have a constant stream of new players, so it would take a literal disaster to shut the game down. And in terms of fun, my comments have nothing to do with fun. I'm still having fun today, but my comments aren't based on today, my comments are based on tomorrow. My comments are not based on the game we have, but on the game we're getting.

If I wasn't having fun, I would have left. But because I AM having fun, I want the game to continue providing that fun. Unfortunately, Turbine is making real progress toward a conclusion that will be far less fun for me.

Going free to play - brought in many more people
Relics in store - don't interest me since the stats are frivolous
Non cosmetics not available in-game - I have not yet found a scenario in game where I needed these
Armour with stats in store - ??? No data yet. Just an unsettling feeling of the presence of 'greed'.

All of these were lines that Turbine specifically defined, yet crossed them anyway.

If we can't even trust Turbine to stick to their own words on these little things, how can we trust them on the big things?

[Thorsvin]

I see there are still some people on the fence. "Why does this matter? It doesn't affect me. I just won't buy this stuff." Let me give you my reasons why this is bad for the community as a whole.

1) Immersion.

LotRO is a virtual world. In a virtual world there must be some seperation between the virtual world and the real world. If I'm constantly reminded about the real world this kills immersion and hurts the experience. It no longer feels like Middle Earth when I can pull out a CC and purchase new armor for my avatar with United States currency.

2) Accomplishment

Saying that this low level gear doesn't matter is a dangerous statement. A new player in first week is going to have to work very hard to get gear equivalent to what is being put on sale. He has no resources from alts, no kinsmen to offer aid, and may not have any friends who started playing the game with them. They also lack the knowledge necessary to make leveling to 30 easy since they are still learning the game. This a critical stage in the game for them. This is when they decided to make a larger investment in this game or simply uninstall. While a new player may work very hard and feel a sense of accomplishment in trying to earn the marks to get a set GB armor because someone in chat suggested that to them they meet other players in these instances and some of them may have some armor they bought from the store that is better then what they are working so hard to get. It wouldn't be stretch to think this player may be let down and any accomplishment they feel from the armor is empty because someone else can start with what they would end with.

3) Kinships

Why do new players seek out kinships? Assistance with quest? Crafters? If a player buys the best gear the game becomes easier and they no longer need assistance for quests or from crafters to get their gear. These player won't have many reason to seek out kinships. Besides, if you don't need help from kinsmen doesn't the kinship just become glorified chat channel?

4) Frustration

MMOs are designed so that for a lot of the content you need help from others which encourages grouping. This gear will create players who no longer need anything from other players at lower levels. Once they get past the point where they can't rely on the store to provide them with items they needed at lower level there will be problems. They won't know where else to turn for assistance because up to that point they had used the store to isolate them. They will be suddenly faced with the reality that they need these other players and they can't simply buy there troubles away with a CC.

All of these things add to fewer new players sticking around, fewer new recruits to grow or start kinships, and fewer new players for the good players to assist which will those good players out simply because they no longer feel useful if no one wants their assistance. I don't think will cause any sort of swift end but the community will be slowly bled to death as there will be less and less reason to actually interact with each other.

[uw1975]

3) Kinships

Why do new players seek out kinships? Assistance with quest? Crafters? If a player buys the best gear the game becomes easier and they no longer need assistance for quests or from crafters to get their gear. These player won't have many reason to seek out kinships. Besides, if you don't need help from kinsmen doesn't the kinship just become glorified chat channel?

I do agree. In fact, since the F2P, casual kins have all but a few ones disbanded, as there is no or few incentive anymore to be in a large kin. Moreover, it is very difficult to organize anything as F2P means that the casual player will play very erratically (a few days here, then disappears for weeks, etc.). Raiding kins of course has been less hit but casual kins, especially the biggest ones, took a huge hit.

[WickedWitch99]

(snip)

I *love* the idea of quest packs and a la carte content that's yours forever. For many people this is an awesome way to play: they buy a questpack and for that single payment they can take as long as they want to finish it. No obligatory subscription, so more freedom to hop in whenever you want. More people playing, for less on average but more on total. Brilliant.

And I was lead to believe this was working. They *where* making more money. The game *was* more successful.

So why is it now necessary to start nickeling and diming players? Don't the quest packs make enough money? That wasn't the impression Turbine gave. So then it is starting to look greedy when they try and find money under every virtual rock.

Again: objectively this all won't affect the gameplay. But it feels like unnecessary greed and that is upsetting to me.

Why indeed, especially in light of this http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...december-2011:

December 2011 Producer's Letter

The end of 2011 is here, and it has been an incredible year for The Lord of the Rings Online. I want to express deep thanks and gratitude from the staff at Turbine to all our fans that made this LOTRO's strongest year ever.

The addition of gear with stats for 95/450tp a piece is necessary why exactly?

And no, the argument that the AH is empty is not strong enough to justify going back on one's word.

[OldePhart]

Well, I never said it was right or wrong. That isn't the point. To use a familiar argument that people use in regards to the store...Say I put up a level 15 critted purple for 5 gold. That is an outrageous price but no one is forcing people to buy it. You don't need it to play the game.

I was just saying it is wrong to blame the players for saying stat gear needs to be sold in the store because enough of it isn't being sold on the AH. I extended their logic to what you were saying about some stuff on the AH being too expensive to Turbine selling gold so players would have more options to buy things on the AH.

Five gold! I'd be happy to get 50 silver. As I was the one who was quoted as never having been able to sell mid tier gear at even my cost let's look at a real game example.

Let's say a level 20 purple critted bow (I'm not in game right now so this will be off the top of my head, but pretty close):
Bowstave =
...(2 planks = 4 logs + 2 lumps of wax) = 40.5s (actually, usually more, even ash often sells for 15s if you list it in small lots instead of full stacks)
...wrap (vendor) = 2s
...resin (to increase crit chance to 48%) = 15s (much higher at higher tiers and much, much higher for some crafts - flax anyone?)

So, each attempt costs me 57.5s and I will typically get 1 crit out of two attempts. The non-crit item won't sell at any price. I'm not kidding - I've listed them for vendor price and not even gotten a nibble - which meant I wasted even more coin paying the AH fee to list the item - so I quit posting non-critted items as a waste of time and just sell them to the vendor at the craft hall.

So, producing a single level 20 purple critted bow on average is going to cost me 115s. If I list it for 100s with a buyout of 150s I will get it back after two days two or three times (adding up AH fees each time) before it finally sells.

Why should I screw around with that when I can list the logs for 10 silver with a buyout at 15 in stacks of 25 or planks at 15 buyout at twenty and they will sell every time?

Is asking asking 100-150 silver for something that, on a good day, cost you 115-125s (counting auction fees) to bring to market?

Saddly, things get even worse when you get to the point where you can start crafting teal gear. That master craftsman's journal you need to have a reasonable chance of critting and that shard at 250-500 silver is putting you into the range where it costs about 3g to produce a teal critted level 31 item. Sometimes you can get that for it in the AH, after several tries.

So, yeah, there's not as much stuff as maybe people would like to see in the auction house. Guess what, there won't be much of anything after WB finishes putting better stuff than crafters can make into the store where you can get instant gratification with daddy's credit card.

John

[BrittainTheCommie]

It's not too late for Turbine to change their profit model but it depends on what they want: Pay to Play/Pay to Win.

Pay to Play: Increase monthly subscription (For a quality game at SoA standards). $50.00/mo.** for game subscription/$50.00 for annual expansion. Or tier the monthly subscription (Unlimited, High, Moderate, Low) for hours played.

[i]**I understand that this is not the general subscription price and significantly higher than normal but for an investment that I can play endlessly for hours, everyday, for a month, I see it as an incredible value. I pay 100+ for my gym membership that I use 4-5 days a week for 1-2hrs.

Pay to Win: Keep doing what you're doing and have no viable game or invested community in a year or so.

[BrittainTheCommie]

I think those players have been posting in a secret feedback forum along with all the people that asked for a tool to place them in ill-formed groups to run random skirmishes and instances not of their choosing.

It's probably the same players that don't post on the forums and are so incredibly happy with the game, despite the fact that kins/servers/raiding/pvmping is depleting.

[BrittainTheCommie]

Lastly, for now, cute touch on placing blame on the players, Turbine. Really, it's pretty incredible to place the blame on all of the individual people, not characters, actual players, that have vocally and financially supported you, in game, on the forums, at MMO conferences, etc., for the last four years.

It's pretty disgusting that a company would blame their players for having to make a decision that goes against everything they, TURBINE, have stated would do and what their community has been against from the beginning.

[OldePhart]

So, is this stuff hitting home? Is that why multiple threads were merged into one? Hopefully (and that's not an easy word to use here anymore) it's so someone higher up the chain has one thread of complaints to read come Tuesday. Hopefully it's NOT to sweep it all under the rug. Make the right call.

Broom, meet rug...

[Firemane0]

Is asking asking 100-150 silver for something that, on a good day, cost you 115-125s (counting auction fees) to bring to market?

Nope not in the least but for every person who charges 100-150 for a 16-20 there are a dozen more who will charge 500-750 for 7+ or who will buy your 100-150 and resell for 500-750. and that is supposedly part of the problem in the ah. In a Game like WoW we have to suck it up and either pay outrageous prices, camp the AH and hope something suitable pops up or suck it up and play a little more carefully. With Lotro supposedly people have asked for armor because the AH prices were too high, the server too small and they feel they need level appropriate crit armor to be safe (rather then playing smart).

If we can make the AH accessible for lowbies then this armor won't sell and Turbine will see this as a failed experiment and move on. I think in this case the ball really is in our court.

Some of us, as lifers and founders, have been here long enough and established enough to be able to provide cheap gear with the only cost to us being the time to craft the gear. I hear alot of talk about Turbine/WB greed well in this case player greed is also a contributing factor.

[OldePhart]

Nope not in the least but for every person who charges 100-150 for a 16-20 there are a dozen more who will charge 500-750 for 7+ or who will buy your 100-150 and resell for 500-750. and that is supposedly part of the problem in the ah...

Gee, I wish some of those resellers had found my auctions a little more often. If I could have consistently got 150s I'd have kept making the stuff. In fact, I don't think that scenario is happening much, at least on my server...it's not something I think would be profitable in the long term. I'm sure there must be others like myself who, upon noticing that people were consistently buying my products at a price that let me make a small profit only to resell for a huge profit, would simply flood the AH with gear at a reasonable profit and keep doing so for as long as it was selling...