What is new in the store, armors?????

[Abiyah]

Exactly. That's not the kind of reputation I ever want this community to have.

I can't remember if it's in this thread or one on a completely different site, but someone said that the players who remain in this game are what Turbine needs to fuel their business model, even if they don't spend money on the game. Having a high population is itself a draw for new players. Because of that, this post goes on to say, the players who remain in the game deserve the garbage that Turbine will throw at them.

I beg to differ on that. It goes along with what Ayrolen says about the kind of reputation the community has. In an earlier post, I said this setting for the game was a treasure to find. Others have said it well, too-- a living, breathing Middle Earth. I'm willing to dig through the garbage to find that gem, to keep this game as a name above other MMOs. The company once was proud of their presentation-- they've created a beautiful setting that goes well with the story. I'm hoping and guessing there still is pride in the work; maybe not from the corporate execs-- it's apparent they could care less about the game than as a dollar figure; but I think the designers and developers still take pride in their created world. I'm sure their questions to the devs when new ideas are presented aren't along the lines of how long will it take, but are more directed to how much will it cost, and that can be disheartening. I'm hoping the devs take heart at what they read in here; I guess, too, at the same time I'm hoping they do read this forum. I'd think they do, even if it's at home after work or before they go to bed at night. The treasure of the game is still there, buried in garbage right now, but still there nonetheless.

Turbine has changed their stated corporate stance about selling stat gear in the store. They can change that stance again. If the player community stands strong in its own belief that a wrong step needs to be righted, there's a chance it can be. Folks, dig through the garbage.

[Ayrolen]

Turbine has changed their stated corporate stance about selling stat gear in the store. They can change that stance again. If the player community stands strong in its own belief that a wrong step needs to be righted, there's a chance it can be.

This is my hope.

[Barrynor]

This is my hope.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."


Which is my current state. Disappointment.


If the Store were a raid, I'd join the best raiding kin that would have me and raid every night till it was dead.

[byron7]

Okay.
targeting new players who had the misfortune to buy the armour as it seems is counter productive but the point remains. how shall we fight this?
what actions must take in order to make TB sorry for even thinking of it?
I said I won't spend anymore money on their store even if that means I must lose my precious relics I am keeping since the Li's revamp.
What other actions exist?

[Fipiara]

...
I probably will craft as much as possible of a similar level and post up on the AH.

Just wanted to follow-up on what I posted way back at the start of the thread. After what I can only describe as an insane amount of armour crafting (T1/2/3 & Light/Medium/Heavy) over the past week and a half I thought I'd post some eye-opening information (at least it was for me):

What I crafted:

First week - roughly 80 items in each of the following - T1(Light & Medium), T1(Heavy), T2(Light), T2(Medium), T2(Heavy), T3(Heavy), T3(Medium). All of them using optional components and had at least 60 crit in each group (I did not craft any shard/symbol gear at this time). In the end more than 400 critted armour pieces and other non-crit armour. I placed them on Firefoot's AH over the past week across various alts.

How many sold?

By the following Saturday - I had less than 30 crit armour pieces left and had sold more than 400 items on the AH over the course of the week. For the second week I crafted roughly 70-80 crit items in each category T1/2/3 & Light/Medium/Heavy for >550 crit armour pieces. Within the first 24 hours (Monday) sold >130 items, T3 being the strongest tier sold.


What do I take from this? Regardless of whether the armour is needed at that level, whether other armour is available via questing or the skirmish camp, whether players can craft their own items, etc. I am amazed at how well the lower-level armour sells, how strong the demand is, and how many players in that level range are checking the AH for gear. There is a gigantic laundry-list of contributing factors that could fill up the suggestions forum, but at least from what I see there is a substantially higher demand than the long-term supply on our AH. Long-term it is not realistically possible to maintain even a fourth of the crafting I've been doing given the current AH/crafting systems, both in terms of resources (hides/ore/optional) and maintaining a strong variety on the AH. It's been a HUGE pain just crafting/posting the items thus far.

This does not change my opinion that I wish that the statted armour never made an appearance in the Store and I still do believe that there is a strong need for changes both in terms of crafting and the AH, but regardless of whether players need better gear or how easy/hard the content may be players still want to be able to pick up crafted quality items reliably and probably preferably with in-game currency.

[BellusDuFenna]

What other actions exist?

Aside from not buying anymore points?

1) Cancel your VIP account, if you have one. If you're a Lifer, this doesn't apply, since why would you do that? In short, if you have a recurring subscription, go Premium instead.

2) Refuse to spend what Turbine Points you currently have on-hand. Yes, you already bought them, but chalk it up as a loss, and ignore the Store from here on out.

3a) Do not log into the game. Ignore its very existence, and play something else, as your very presence in the game make the game look more populated to others, and by proxy helps Turbine.

... or...

3b) Log into the game as much as possible. Use up bandwidth and processing cycles for their equipment, costing Turbine money while not providing any more money yourself to offset those costs. If possible, use this time in solo Skirmishes, so that you aren't appearing in game to others wandering around (thus making the game look less populated, see 3a).

4) Speak up! Comment on this here, as well as on 3rd party websites that are discussing the Store Gear issue. Make your voice heard, so that the whole industry is quite aware of what is going on in LOTRO.

Just a few suggestions, since you asked. Screenshot of comment made, for posterity

[Dorothir]

You'd think the mods would have turned this into an official thread and put it in the official feedback section... then again, they don't want too many people finding this and making it seem like they've made a mistake. Better for them to just leave it here where very few scroll down to look.

[Anisson]

You'd think the mods would have turned this into an official thread and put it in the official feedback section... then again, they don't want too many people finding this and making it seem like they've made a mistake. Better for them to just leave it here where very few scroll down to look.

They have done more than just that, the Community support team that has responded in this thread have all turned off there Dev tracking flag when responding. They are in fact intentionally hiding it as best they can. the fact is however it's a moot point, its not just here in this thread it's all over the internet.




Orladen

[Ayrolen]

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

I prefer this one:

"Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning."
-Albert Einstein

[PerinStone]

What do I take from this? Regardless of whether the armour is needed at that level, whether other armour is available via questing or the skirmish camp, whether players can craft their own items, etc. I am amazed at how well the lower-level armour sells, how strong the demand is, and how many players in that level range are checking the AH for gear.

This does not change my opinion that I wish that the statted armour never made an appearance in the Store and I still do believe that there is a strong need for changes both in terms of crafting and the AH, but regardless of whether players need better gear or how easy/hard the content may be players still want to be able to pick up crafted quality items reliably and probably preferably with in-game currency.

I commend you for your efforts in making all of that gear. I craft for alts and know how much of a pain it can be to make a single set of gear for lower levels.

What this shows to me is that there is a big demand for low level armour and they probably weren't lying when they said that is feedback they've been getting. Could they have put the armour in game somehow instead of putting it in the store? Probably. I have a feeling though that if they reworked the level 10-30 quest rewards or made additional changes to crafting to address this then a lot of the people complaining about the gear in the store would have complained about them focusing on that and not other bugs. i.e. "Why are you worrying about stupid level 20 armour when X, Y and Z are still broken?"

So instead they took the easier path and put it in the store where it would be quicker and easier, they wouldn't have to allocate development time on it, and they would make some money.

[SabrielofLorien]

Just wanted to follow-up on what I posted way back at the start of the thread. After what I can only describe as an insane amount of armour crafting (T1/2/3 & Light/Medium/Heavy) over the past week and a half I thought I'd post some eye-opening information (at least it was for me):

What I crafted:

First week - roughly 80 items in each of the following - T1(Light & Medium), T1(Heavy), T2(Light), T2(Medium), T2(Heavy), T3(Heavy), T3(Medium). All of them using optional components and had at least 60 crit in each group (I did not craft any shard/symbol gear at this time). In the end more than 400 critted armour pieces and other non-crit armour. I placed them on Firefoot's AH over the past week across various alts.

How many sold?

By the following Saturday - I had less than 30 crit armour pieces left and had sold more than 400 items on the AH over the course of the week. For the second week I crafted roughly 70-80 crit items in each category T1/2/3 & Light/Medium/Heavy for >550 crit armour pieces. Within the first 24 hours (Monday) sold >130 items, T3 being the strongest tier sold.


What do I take from this? Regardless of whether the armour is needed at that level, whether other armour is available via questing or the skirmish camp, whether players can craft their own items, etc. I am amazed at how well the lower-level armour sells, how strong the demand is, and how many players in that level range are checking the AH for gear. There is a gigantic laundry-list of contributing factors that could fill up the suggestions forum, but at least from what I see there is a substantially higher demand than the long-term supply on our AH. Long-term it is not realistically possible to maintain even a fourth of the crafting I've been doing given the current AH/crafting systems, both in terms of resources (hides/ore/optional) and maintaining a strong variety on the AH. It's been a HUGE pain just crafting/posting the items thus far.

This does not change my opinion that I wish that the statted armour never made an appearance in the Store and I still do believe that there is a strong need for changes both in terms of crafting and the AH, but regardless of whether players need better gear or how easy/hard the content may be players still want to be able to pick up crafted quality items reliably and probably preferably with in-game currency.

Great Job!

[somewhat off topic]

I have westfold/guilded crafters of all professions. And in some (Historian) I have 3. While there is a separate crafting forum that languishes from Dev attention, here is my pre-Amour-in-the-Store experience on Nimrodel.

I only craft for levels UNDER level 30. Why? Nothing over level 30 sells as there are better sets of everything in drops and quests.

I crafted light/med/heavy complete top to bottom set(s) on average once a week. So a complete full set of L16 critted armour + shields + weapons hit the AH.

I crafted scrolls/tokens/potions too. Tokens mostly high level ones but potions, loads of them hit the AH.

Food, I crafted critted/1perweek/guild meals too. Also the trail foods. Those hit the AH also.

I crafted sundries like dyes too.

I filled in where other crafters had not made much. So, if someone had 10 helmets(critted) and 5 critted 1h swords, I skipped the helmet worked on the rest of the armour set and made 2hd swords or axes or daggers etc.

I liked crafting and didn't mind gathering materials to do it.

I charged what I thought was a "fair price" for what that level had, especially if they didn't have friends to help them finance their acquisitions. I've been posting on the AH for a long time, there was never a real shortage of anything on Nimrodel.

Turbine does not like crafting and pretty much either nerfed it or competes directly with it in their store. There was some hope with Westfold that crafting had gotten a boost again and I did craft many many Teal/Guild pieces for friends and for sale. I also sold extra Sigils and those that got them from me, got them for less than the AH prices at the time.

Yes, there is a demand for low level armour. There is a demand by crafters to "help us make good stuff". Largely the latter is ignored by Turbine, why should they? They can sell the potions, dyes, and "fluff" and make REAL DOLLARS not fake in-game gold like the crafters. They can sell the recipes too and crafting bundles that make everything BOA. You cannot sell the output to anyone, it's strictly craft for yourself with those. If you use the bundles then you cannot compete against the Store. Turbine wins both ways.

The one-shot critted recipes forgotten on completion are expressly geared to craft for yourself. I skipped those and crafted the normal recipes or guild ones until I got crits. Again, anything to prevent the crafter from competing against Turbine.

Now, some of the above has been in the game since day one. However, instead of changing it to improve the situation, Turbine puts in restrictions and hindrances to enhance their own revenue.

It's not a coincidence, it's by design. It's not new, it's contrived. It's WAI (working as intended) by Turbine. After all, Turbine created it, they designed it, they wrote it, they deployed the code and they control the process.

YMMV

[megaboy]

You'd think the mods would have turned this into an official thread and put it in the official feedback section... then again, they don't want too many people finding this and making it seem like they've made a mistake. Better for them to just leave it here where very few scroll down to look.

i find that more folks use the new post button then just scrolling the front page.

so as long as this is kept on the 1st page of a new posts search it will still be visible.

[megaboy]

They have done more than just that, the Community support team that has responded in this thread have all turned off there Dev tracking flag when responding. They are in fact intentionally hiding it as best they can. the fact is however it's a moot point, its not just here in this thread it's all over the internet.




Orladen

the last dev tracker reported post from a csm was on 17/1/12, how many have there been since then?

[Ayrolen]

the last dev tracker reported post from a csm was on 17/1/12, how many have there been since then?

Only one, that I can find, which was merely a "stop the bickering and insults and stay on topic" response from Celestrata. That doesn't really warrant a spot in the Dev Tracker. There's only so much that she and Sapience can say at this point without getting the ok from Marketing and other higher-ups. She and Sapience aren't running the show, they're moderating the community.

[alKaba]

I do not like this option. I think it potentially ruins the player economy and the integrity of the game. Why craft? Why spend time leveling up or searching for better armor? Just spend money, buy the best stuff and get it over with. P2W is not a game I want to play.

[mark_t50]

At the end of the day the only thing that will make any difference is if people cancel their subs, stop spending in the store, and even stop logging in all together.

I'm guessing that as well monitoring this thread, they will also be monitoring the sale of these new items, as well as sales from the store in general along with subscription levels. If they see a big enough drop in subs, plus people spending a lot less on the store since the introduction of these items then that would send the signal.

Turbine obviously don't seem to care anymore about the integrity of the game or their own reputation imho otherwise they would not had taken the step down this road that they have, it is only cold hard money they will be interested in and the only people who can do anything about it are the players. It worked in Eve when they introduced £80 monocles and walking in station. The players were concerned about the direction this would lead to i.e. pay to win, enough players rioted ingame and cancelled subs that CCP had to take notice, reverse course and refocus game development back into the core of the game.

So as much as we can complain on forums, it does no good if people don't back it up with action, I know I will not log back into the game unless things change and we get a clear communication that the game is not going pay to win, I'm afraid 'not at this time' when it comes to higher end gear and items just doesn't cut it, i'll invest my time and money with another company if this is the route Turbine want to take.

So, either enough of us care and actually do something concrete about it, or we are the small minority and probably not wanted as customers by turbine anyway I guess time will tell on this one.

[megaboy]

Only one, that I can find, which was merely a "stop the bickering and insults and stay on topic" response from Celestrata. That doesn't really warrant a spot in the Dev Tracker. There's only so much that she and Sapience can say at this point without getting the ok from Marketing and other higher-ups. She and Sapience aren't running the show, they're moderating the community.

thats what all i found and think the peron i qouted was making something outta nothing.

and i agree with you Ayr, there really isnt much for them to say unless they are given permission to speak so ya nothing on the dev tracker cuase there isnt anything worth tracking.

[Yosoff]

If you resort to abusiveness toward other players, then the game is already lost.

Putting someone on ignore is not abusive. In fact it's the preferred way to politely handle a situation with a player that you never want to communicate with again.

Maybe you'd rather make them a full set of crafted gear for free since that would be a nicer way to help them not contribute to the way the store continues to intrude on gameplay. However, the last time I crafted a set of crit gear for a random newbie they sent me a tell a few hours later asking for another set because they deleted their toon and re-rolled because they didn't like their hair.

Bottom line, people need to know about the issues with the store. Only a small fraction of the people read the forums and have read this thread. The key to players pushing back against the store is to make the gear less appealing in-game either through peer pressure or crafting assistance.

Everyone in my kin or on my friends list already knows that they can come to me for any crafting requests. We've complained about the store armor thoroughly in vent and I can't imagine any of them buying the store armor for an alt. If enough people handle the situation the same way then the armor sales should fail which is the only message the execs will understand.

[Ayrolen]

Putting someone on ignore is not abusive.

You seem to have conveniently forgotten everything else you said in addition to putting players on ignore. Here, let me quote you to refresh your memory:

"The ONLY way for players to draw the line is to spread the word and use peer pressure in-game. Tell people that you see running around in store armor that you think they are harming the game. And yes, put them on ignore, kick them from your kin, don't join fellowships with them, send a message to people who buy 'advantage' items."

Sending people tells to inform them that they are "harming the game", kicking them from kinships, etc, IS not only abusive, it's incredibly petty. Like I said, this isn't Junior High. This is a game that I play for entertainment. I will not resort to "peer pressure" to get Turbine to do what I want. I expect Turbine to do the right thing on their own.

[kerryak]

This isn't Junior High.

[Ayrolen]

That's pretty accurate, actually. Just add glasses and braces.

[Chanah]

That's an incredibly naive statement. ALL of the "other more effective ways" to tell Turbine that they've crossed the line with the store have fallen on death ears (stat tomes, uber pots, relics, scroll of relic removal, monster player rank 15 skills and now better-than-crafted armor). There has been a steady progression to the point where even the idea of top tier raid gear only gets a reply of "not at this time".

Where are we going to be a year from now? Will we be able to buy a brand new max-level character with full raid gear, traits and level 85 1st age? Or maybe we'll even be able to buy a wizard character, I bet people would pay a ton for that!

Turbine has made it clear that money trumps all other concerns. You can choose not to spend your own money in the store, but that doesn't help if everyone else is "paying to win". The ONLY way for players to draw the line is to spread the word and use peer pressure in-game. Tell people that you see running around in store armor that you think they are harming the game. And yes, put them on ignore, kick them from your kin, don't join fellowships with them, send a message to people who buy "advantage" items.

You don't go off at other players. And when store armour is the only armour available, and with the continued crafting nerfs that is how it will shake out, how will you feel? Here is how to use peer pressure: stop paying and stop playing. If you quit paying, but still play, you are helping Turbine attract more customers. People like full servers.

If you stop playing, and explain to all your friends/kin who play why you've stopped - that might do something. Insulting people who don't know the game of old is just being cruel.

[thejadestorm]

Great. Got logged out in the middle of typing a much more "nice" post and lost it so here's the short version:

- I feel like what could happen is -- we have three semi-equiv lvl 75 raid sets currently, all requiring grind -- i could see an offering of a "well if you don't want to grind here's a convenient store-bought alternative set"
- That feels a lot like a "scam" -- make everything more and more of a grind, frustrate people, offer store-bought relief from frustration

I can only hope this is not the direction we're looking at. =(

I read in one location that the thought behind this armor was "people are complaining that they can't get at good low level armor" -- ignoring the "why don't they just craft or buy from AH or ask people to buy"? -- it seems like a better solution than store bought might be to address why they're having such troubles finding it. Perhaps even implement a way to allow people to post crafting -requests- in-game. In other words "Hi there, I need a lvl 20 armor set, am willing to pay 500s" and someone could claim it and create it for them. Sort of a "contract". =) Or maybe the low level quests aren't giving enough armor options and they should be adjusted to do so.

[StavroMuellerBeta]

I read in one location that the thought behind this armor was "people are complaining that they can't get at good low level armor" -- ignoring the "why don't they just craft or buy from AH or ask people to buy"?

Part of the reason that it's harder for new players to craft their own stuff is that many of the Expert NPC vendors had their tier 4-6 recipes removed. The official line is that this is a "bug", but it is not yet listed in the known issues, nor has it had any sort of fix.

Right now, the only people who can craft decent non-guild gear are those who had already purchased the recipes before the "bug". For new players, the only option for self-crafting in these professions is to go with guild items, which means paying TP for each tier of guild access, or buy shards to craft one-shots.

At this rate, I half expect the rest of the recipes to be removed as well. Why should Turbine have these low level recipes in the game to complete against the store-bought armor? They've already removed the competition for the next tiers of armor, so it's only the next logical step.

[thejadestorm]

Part of the reason that it's harder for new players to craft their own stuff is that many of the Expert NPC vendors had their tier 4-6 recipes removed. The official line is that this is a "bug", but it is not yet listed in the known issues, nor has it had any sort of fix.

Ug... I was not aware of that... =/