Questions Over Lore

[Haunt123]

balrogs are maiar
nazgul are men, that are between life and death, granted limited powers by sauron
it goes without saying that balrogs are clearly superior
gandalf had trouble killing 1 balrog, on weathertop he held many nazgul off all night and came out of it fine

The Witch-King was not with Nazgul that day when Gandalf was attacked. Gandalf himself said that even he feared the Witch-King. Many points raised in the past few pages show that the Witch-king actually did come very close to DB in terms of power.

Remember, Sauron himself is giving the Nazgul their power. Durin's Bane, no matter how strong, was not nearly as powerful than Morgoth's sidekick. This is Sauron without the Ring. Had Sauron the Ring, the Nazgul would have increased in power enough to be an immensely difficult challenge even to the Heroes of the First Age. The Witch-King? He'd be more powerful than most Balrogs (By most I mean excluding Gothmog, at the very least.)

[Haunt123]

ENOUGH with saying the Maiar trump all races of Middle-Earth! END RACISM IN LOTR!

No, seriously, quite a few guys belonging to the races of M-E were more powerful than most Maiar.

[silverblade5445]

The Witch-King was not with Nazgul that day when Gandalf was attacked. Gandalf himself said that even he feared the Witch-King. Many points raised in the past few pages show that the Witch-king actually did come very close to DB in terms of power.

Remember, Sauron himself is giving the Nazgul their power. Durin's Bane, no matter how strong, was not nearly as powerful than Morgoth's sidekick. This is Sauron without the Ring. Had Sauron the Ring, the Nazgul would have increased in power enough to be an immensely difficult challenge even to the Heroes of the First Age. The Witch-King? He'd be more powerful than most Balrogs (By most I mean excluding Gothmog, at the very least.)

When has Gandalf said he "fears" the Witch King? O.o

If you mean when he says to Denethor, "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared"

When I read that, I read it as " For one has come that I feared would be sent against Gondor"

So I really think....although its just my take on it, he meant that he was worried that Sauron would send a powerful Lieutenant like the Witch King against Gondor.....this action is what he feared.....not the Witch King himself.....

ENOUGH with saying the Maiar trump all races of Middle-Earth! END RACISM IN LOTR!

No, seriously, quite a few guys belonging to the races of M-E were more powerful than most Maiar.

Lol were since Maiar were sort of demi gods, the debate would always continue ^_^ but yes, a VERY few guys of ME can be said to be more powerful than Maiar.....Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Earendil to name a few


and just to emphasize it again.....people really need to stop treating and assuming Gandalf as a Maia.....he isnt.....Olorin is a Maia.....Gandalf is his mortal avatar....we cannot make a direct comparison unless we considered Gandalf's full power unleashed....

[Haunt123]

When has Gandalf said he "fears" the Witch King? O.o

If you mean when he says to Denethor, "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared"

When I read that, I read it as " For one has come that I feared would be sent against Gondor"

So I really think....although its just my take on it, he meant that he was worried that Sauron would send a powerful Lieutenant like the Witch King against Gondor.....this action is what he feared.....not the Witch King himself.....

Well, if that's true, it's just weird how he cut off his statement like that. He should have said "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared *would be sent*"

IIRC, Denethor asked Gandalf why he came back and asked mockingly whether Gandalf was evenly matched, or overpowered by the Witch-King. Gandalf Doesn't deny this. The text says that he kept silence and "didn't retort" or something along those lines.

I think Gandalf is understandably worried by the Witch-King's presence:
They both use magic of nearly equal potency (WK enabled Grond to break the Impenetrable Gates, Gandalf set fire to nuts and threw em at wolves )
They both are great leaders
WK has the physical strength of a Troll, Gandalf is a genius (and an INTJ according to some psychologists)
They both are very, very wise.

Gandalf vs WK would have definitely been a tougher duel for Gandalf than the one with DB. Considering WK's strength and the many other factors, such as the 8 other Nazgul to aid him.

Oh, and though Glorfindel is an amazing hero and whatnot, he doesn't come close to Ecthelion and Fingolfin. The only Elves stronger than many Maiar were Glorfindel, Galadriel, Elrond and a few others. Their "power" was in skill in arms, foresight and knowledge. Elrond is part-maiar too.

Infact, all the Dunedain are part Maiar... THEY HAVE INFILTRATED OUR PURE RACES!

[Dunford]

I appreciate the comments. It seems that the telling observation is that Gandalf, although also a Maia, had enough of his powers reduced to make the fight with DB a near equal contest. I've always considered Gandalf as the most powerful being in the 3rd age that is on the side of good but understand that he was also limited in his powers.
Makes sense now, thanks!

[Elenswith]

Just a thought about Orcs, and how they where *made* :
I think when Meriadoc and Peregrin are at Fangorn, they hear about that matter. Something like, Melkor created the orcs, as he wanted to create his own elves. But he was unable to create something of his own (because he wasn' t anywhere as powerful as Eru after all), so they just are somewhat shattered elves. Same as if a child would rebuild something an adult created, and of couse fail with it' s own work.
He (Melkor) also tried to create his own ents, and they came out as trolls...and so on.
Please correct me if I' m mistaken

[Andjay]

I think there's an important aspect of war being left out of the equation here:

S*** happens. The US Army is widely held to be the most powerful fighting force on the planet. But is it unassailable? Not by a long shot. There are not only widely varying circumstances and random chance events that can work for or against the US Army, but there are also the strengths and weaknesses of any two combatants. US Army (ie, technology, size, superiority) would probably still have a bit of trouble with the army of People's Republic of China--their manpower is unmatched.

We know the US army certainly has trouble with non-standard warfare (Vietnam, Korea, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan). Might alone is not enough to definitively answer these arguments, is what I'm saying.

So with that being said, let's re-examine things:

First off, Morgoth is stronger than Sauron, Sauron is stronger than Balrogs. Sauron might not be stronger than Gothmog.

HOWEVER, we also know that, given time, most creatures of morgoth/sauron tend to increase in power, perhaps as they have time to really come into their own with regards to the corruptions that have been bestowed upon them. For example, Glaurung was "relatively weak" when he first showed up, but then increased in power and presence. Smaug himself talks of how he used to be fairly squishy until he got his armor of gemstones etc. I think it's worth considering that Balrogs might also develop in strength as time goes on. In fact, the only instances we have of such beings diminishing over time rather than getting stronger is Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman, and all of those three were artificers. Tolkien REALLY believes in the power of the spirit as opposed to the power of the toys that we make for ourselves. Where he could, he even gave spirits to tools, such as Huan (who would have been viewed as slightly better than property back then, no question), gave a spirit Angrist? I think. One of those swords, anyway.

So I don't think it's all that incredible to claim that Durin's Bane could have paralleled or even excelled Gothmog in strength given that 2 ages have passed since the two were last out on a date.

As an aside--the "guidance" that Sauron gave his armies, the "cohesion" and "tactics" buffs, so to speak, I think it was the abruptness of their disappearing that sent the monsters into a panic, rather than its removal turned them into ambulatory vegetables...

In any event, let's now look at those combats:

Ecthelion/Glorfindel: both potent 1a elve who have seen the Trees and lived among the Gods. These things are not insignificant "buffs". In fact, I think it would be wicked cool to see a "Vision of the Trees" buff on Galadriel in game, giving her some amazing stats/effects or soemthing. Ecthelion also has an added "buff" of the fountain. And hell, probably some sort of "last stand" buff to boot. Do not ignore circumstances! The enemy who is cornered will tend to fight more fiercely when he knows he's already dead. It's a central tenet of Bushido---samurai were encouraged to think of themselves as already dead.

Fingon held his own against Gothmog until he was 2 manned. Though whether or not he could have continued to do so had he not been two-manned is in extreme doubt. Gothmog seems to have single-handedly slain ALL of Fingon's personal guard...Still, we know that Feanor and sons (with attendant armies) were able to hold their own against a whole bunch of them at once, and though Gothmog delivered a mortal wound to Feanor, that's not that high a price to pay when beset by a what was probably 5-10 of them at once...

Olorin in his natural form probably would have defeated the DB quite handily, but not through contest of arms. Olorin was always a wise person first. I see a potential confrontation between DB and Olorin going down more like Finrod vs Sauron. Yes, a singing-battle. Song (and the lore that is sung about) IS magic in Middle-Earth. Story-telling is likewise quite potent, but a lesser version of the same thing. Hence why Bilbo's book is such a central theme in LOTR and Hobbit. Remember, the author of the books seems a little biased towards both literature and history, specifically with regards to sagas, odes, etc.

Gandalf vs. Balrog - dont forget! Gandalf has Narya, the "flame of Anor" (not an insignificant thing), but the first thing he pulls out is the "Servant of the Secret Fire". This is probably his most potent defense/offense. This is essentially like saying "You have no chance against me". It is not that this gives him any super buff, but rather the wisdom that it implies--Gandalf KNOWS about the world, he knows where things fit, and most of all, he knows about the Song. He knows that, in the end, the song will resound the glory of Eru. And the Balrog knows it too. The combination of the ring and the fact that Gandalf has a doom to follow is potent--it's almost a way of prophecy to say that, in the end, I'll still be alive and you won't. And we know that the rings of power enact their own agency (although admittedly it is under Sauron's tenuous control). If there was a way to seemingly by chance, somehow emerge the victor you can bet your ### that Narya was looking for it.

Gandalf, in the end, did not beat DB by his own strength of arms. It seems that, in fighting the Balrog, Gandalf pursued it for quite some time. I think that a lot of the restrictions that were placed upon him were relaxed for that time period, because he was dealing with a spirit of the elder world. It would be pointless to set the Grey Wanderer against a friggin BALROG. You can make pretty fireworks and set pinecones on fire. The Balrog can create a massive sword and whips of fire if for some reason it decides that it can't just curbstomp you with its own hands and feet. And yes, I can only presume that Balrogs are fire-breathing. Hell, they're probably shadow-breathers too.

Anyway, as much as these combats seem to give us a trend to base speculations on, I don't know how much they can, since the variables involved in each confrontation are so diverse.

Would a Balrog be able to single-handedly take out Minas Tirith? Yes. Khazad-Dum? Yes. Lothlorien? Probably. Rivendell? Probably. Any other city whatsoever? Yes. Those might help you put the Balrog's power into context better than grudge-match fights.

[richsabre]

Would a Balrog be able to single-handedly take out Minas Tirith? Yes. Khazad-Dum? Yes. Lothlorien? Probably. Rivendell? Probably. Any other city whatsoever? Yes. Those might help you put the Balrog's power into context better than grudge-match fights.

minas tirith.....dont know
khazad dum- yes, it happened
lothlorien and rivendell- mmmm debatable....galadriel and elrond both had rings of power- as gandalf had the 3rd....i do not think that a balrog would take them out

[Haunt123]

Would a Balrog be able to single-handedly take out Minas Tirith? Yes. Khazad-Dum? Yes. Lothlorien? Probably. Rivendell? Probably. Any other city whatsoever? Yes. Those might help you put the Balrog's power into context better than grudge-match fights.

If I have a really awesome gun which can penetrate through almost anything, I still can't take an entire city.
A Balrog can be as tough as he wants, but he'll give the Gondorim a good laugh as he bangs the gates of Minas Tirith with a sword.
If a Balrog was as strong as you say it was, Sauron would've been working at McDonalds. IMO:

DB did NOT take Khazad-Dum. The Dwarves fled from the Balrog, and since they began running out of Mithril (DB blocked them off), they abandoned Moria. Later, the Orcs took it.

This was different, as the Dwarves found DB inside their kingdom. Not even Sauron could open the Gates of Hollin or wtvr. Now, People in Minas Tirith couldn't have "dug too deep", or found an old Balrog in a storeroom. Even then, one Balrog cannot take an entire city.

We're talking about Balrogs, not the Great Dragons of the First Age *sniggers as he adds another factor to all the confusion*

[Radhruin_EU]

minas tirith.....dont know
khazad dum- yes, it happened
lothlorien and rivendell- mmmm debatable....galadriel and elrond both had rings of power- as gandalf had the 3rd....i do not think that a balrog would take them out

When the Balrog of Moria drove out the Dwarves, the Elves of Lorien panicked and many fled. They were terrified of the thing, of the thought that it might come for them next. As it was, it was probably happy enough to take Moria for its domain, rather than risk tangling with Elves. It'd have sensed that some great power dwelt in those woods, even though it wouldn't have known whose it was.

Same goes for Rivendell. Noldor, again, and not just any Noldor at that but at least two powerful Elf-lords. Not the sort of place for even an evil Maia to mess with unless they'd got an army at their back.

Anywhere else, though, would have been a different matter. If the Balrog could see off a city full of Dwarves, that suggests it was near-unstoppable by any ordinary means. Anyone looking to fight such a supernatural monstrosity would have to be seriously supernatural themselves in order to stand any chance at all.

[Radhruin_EU]

If I have a really awesome gun which can penetrate through almost anything, I still can't take an entire city.
A Balrog can be as tough as he wants, but he'll give the Gondorim a good laugh as he bangs the gates of Minas Tirith with a sword.
If a Balrog was as strong as you say it was, Sauron would've been working at McDonalds. IMO:

It wouldn't have to just walk up to the place. A Balrog was a creature of shadow as well as flame, and we know that it didn't have to show its fiery nature. It could also veil its power, as other Maiar did. So, guess what? Balrogs could use stealth as well as brute force, they wouldn't have to confront an entire city in order to either get into one or to then drive the people out. In the First Age, though, the cities Morgoth wanted to get at were Elvish (Men did not build cities, then) and that was a whole different ball-game. Only brute force or treachery would avail him there.

DB did NOT take Khazad-Dum. The Dwarves fled from the Balrog, and since they began running out of Mithril (DB blocked them off), they abandoned Moria. Later, the Orcs took it.

The Balrog did actually defeat the Dwarves, though, when it killed their king. They knew they couldn't kill the thing, so effectively it did take the place by the simple expedient of making it impossible for them to stay.

[amien]

We're talking about Balrogs, not the Great Dragons of the First Age *sniggers as he adds another factor to all the confusion*

Wait, were the Grat Dragons more powerful than the Balrogs? Explain to me about them please, I'm very confused!

[Radhruin_EU]

Wait, were the Grat Dragons more powerful than the Balrogs?

Not as such. But properly supported, dragons were the business when it came to laying waste to a city.

[Thendrail]

Well, Glaurung entered Nargothrond without much resistance, and Ancalagon even drove the army of the Valar back, until Earendil came....I guess at least Ancalagon would have been stronger than a balrog.

[amien]

The only dragon I really read about in the books was Smaug. I never got very far into the Silmarillion. My reading skills just weren't up to par. lol.....

[silverblade5445]

The only dragon I really read about in the books was Smaug. I never got very far into the Silmarillion. My reading skills just weren't up to par. lol.....

Smaug was only one of the average dragons that survived into the Third Age.....there were armies of dragons under Morgoth's rule.....

And actually Gandalf does mention Ancalagon the Black in the Lord of the Rings : Fellowship of the Ring -

"It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever."

As for dragons being stronger than Balrogs, thats again a topic thats vague with no proof.....Ancalagon and his dragon army fought off the armies of the Valar.....so its definitely a possibility that dragons are extremely powerful and have ancient magic in them.....just as balrogs....and to top it all, Dragons are cunning and wise....exceptionally so......I doubt if Balrogs possess that kind of cunning.....

[Haunt123]

It wouldn't have to just walk up to the place. A Balrog was a creature of shadow as well as flame, and we know that it didn't have to show its fiery nature. It could also veil its power, as other Maiar did. So, guess what? Balrogs could use stealth as well as brute force, they wouldn't have to confront an entire city in order to either get into one or to then drive the people out. In the First Age, though, the cities Morgoth wanted to get at were Elvish (Men did not build cities, then) and that was a whole different ball-game. Only brute force or treachery would avail him there.


The Balrog did actually defeat the Dwarves, though, when it killed their king. They knew they couldn't kill the thing, so effectively it did take the place by the simple expedient of making it impossible for them to stay.

Morgoth was the only Vala who could not change shape. Sauron lost the ability after the fall of Numenor. It is implied that Balrogs cannot change shape either, as any Maia associated with Morgoth soon lost the ability.

As for DB destroying Khazad-Dum, yes, you are right. But remember, the Dwarves were running ot of Mithril, thus extinguishing any hope in them to fight off the Balrog (The hope which remained with those who did not actually see the Balrog).

It was said in the Lost Tales that the Dragons were the only creatures who rivalled the Balrogs in terms of strength and ability to destroy. But they were not as strong as Balrogs. Only certain Dragons, like Ancalagon the Black and Glaurung, were stronger than an "average" Balrog. Not Gothmog, certainly.

[Radhruin_EU]

Morgoth was the only Vala who could not change shape. Sauron lost the ability after the fall of Numenor. It is implied that Balrogs cannot change shape either, as any Maia associated with Morgoth soon lost the ability.

What I said has nothing to do with changing shape; I agree that the Balrogs were 'stuck' in one form. The Balrog of Moria isn't fiery all the time, though: it bursts into flame when it wants to. The key thing is that it's shrouded by shadow. Great for lurking in the dark. Very handy in a naturally dark place like Moria, also handy at night in the outside world although not so much against Elves, who could see perfectly well by starlight alone.

As for DB destroying Khazad-Dum, yes, you are right. But remember, the Dwarves were running ot of Mithril, thus extinguishing any hope in them to fight off the Balrog (The hope which remained with those who did not actually see the Balrog).

I was under the impression that the Dwarves abandoned the place after the Balrog killed Nain, who'd only ruled for a year after his father was killed. We're told that the Dwarves then either fled or were destroyed. That sounds like the Balrog actively driving them out, to me, not just a lack of mithril.

It was said in the Lost Tales that the Dragons were the only creatures who rivalled the Balrogs in terms of strength and ability to destroy. But they were not as strong as Balrogs. Only certain Dragons, like Ancalagon the Black and Glaurung, were stronger than an "average" Balrog. Not Gothmog, certainly.

Given how enormous Ancalagon must have been, I would have said that in terms of sheer destructive force he was the most powerful weapon Morgoth ever had in his arsenal. However, dragons could be slain far more easily than Balrogs. Glaurung was, after all, mortally wounded by a single sword-thrust; in his younger days, he'd been badly mauled by heavily-armoured Dwarves. By contrast, Gandalf hewed away like a madman at the Balrog of Moria ('ever I hewed at him', yes?) with a legendary sword but it simply would not die, he evidently had to wear it down bit by bit: a Maiar could seemingly use its power to sustain its physical form, until it became exhausted.

[Haunt123]

What I said has nothing to do with changing shape; I agree that the Balrogs were 'stuck' in one form. The Balrog of Moria isn't fiery all the time, though: it bursts into flame when it wants to. The key thing is that it's shrouded by shadow. Great for lurking in the dark. Very handy in a naturally dark place like Moria, also handy at night in the outside world although not so much against Elves, who could see perfectly well by starlight alone.

Exactly. Now, if a Balrog ever attacked Minas Tirith alone, neither fire nor shadow would have concealed him, under the Sun or the Moon. Even though he may be completely shrouded by shadow in the night, all Races can sense a Balrog (Or a Nazgul) approaching: the Men would have smelled the stench, felt the heat and a sudden fear seize them.

Of course, they wouldn't have thought it was a Balrog. But they would have raised an alarm thinking the Nazgul are approaching. Then, thanks to the light caused by their torches and all, the Balrog would have been spotted.

It is well nigh impossible for a Balrog to take Minas Tirith on his own, and it is impossible for even a Balrog to break the impenetrable walls of the city. When it comes to breaking impenetrable walls, you need a Great Dragon or something terrific like Grond+the WK's magic.

I was under the impression that the Dwarves abandoned the place after the Balrog killed Nain, who'd only ruled for a year after his father was killed. We're told that the Dwarves then either fled or were destroyed. That sounds like the Balrog actively driving them out, to me, not just a lack of mithril.

You are right about the Dwarves leaving after Nain was killed. But think, why would Nain stay and try to fight the DB? Only this: The veins of Mithril found by the Dwarves were guarded by DB. Also, DB didn't come running out into the Upper Halls, or many of the major cities within Moria. Moria is huge. The Dwarves could have stayed there, though under deadly fear.

The reason why the Dwarves fled, or eventually had to flee, were: (in orded of priority)

1. DB
2. They lost almost all their mithril, upon which their economy depended
3. The evil of DB attracted many creatures of evil, such as Goblins.

Given how enormous Ancalagon must have been, I would have said that in terms of sheer destructive force he was the most powerful weapon Morgoth ever had in his arsenal. However, dragons could be slain far more easily than Balrogs. Glaurung was, after all, mortally wounded by a single sword-thrust; in his younger days, he'd been badly mauled by heavily-armoured Dwarves. By contrast, Gandalf hewed away like a madman at the Balrog of Moria ('ever I hewed at him', yes?) with a legendary sword but it simply would not die, he evidently had to wear it down bit by bit: a Maiar could seemingly use its power to sustain its physical form, until it became exhausted.

Remember, we are not talking about strength, but power. Power is something much more vast. Why is China so powerful? Not only because of its military strength, but also its economic power, and the resultant diplomatic influence.

Glaurung could control people's minds. Already the people who could face Glaurung had to be brave, legendary heroes, such as Turin. Even Turin's mind was dominated by Glaurung. A Balrog cannot do this.

Also remember, the Silmarillion is not the same as LOTR. In the fall of Gondolin, Tuor destroys five Balrogs. That'll make em seem pretty weak, eh? But Tolkien's ideas were premature then, and by LOTR, Balrogs were extremely powerful. Meanwhile, in the Silmarillion/ Lost Tales, they were not.

[Radhruin_EU]

Exactly. Now, if a Balrog ever attacked Minas Tirith alone, neither fire nor shadow would have concealed him, under the Sun or the Moon. Even though he may be completely shrouded by shadow in the night, all Races can sense a Balrog (Or a Nazgul) approaching: the Men would have smelled the stench, felt the heat and a sudden fear seize them.

No: Maiar could hide their power (Gandalf did that all the time), and as I said it's plain from the book that Balrogs weren't fiery unless they wanted to be. When Gandalf glimpsed it momentarily for the first time, he saw something 'dark as a cloud' that blocked the light, with no hint of fire.

As for the Nazgul, they had to be very close indeed before ordinary people would feel anything. When Merry went for a stroll in Bree, he felt the presence of one of the Nazgul but it was only yards away, in the shadows just outside the light of the lamp he was standing under, close enough that he got a dose of the Black Breath from it.

It is well nigh impossible for a Balrog to take Minas Tirith on his own, and it is impossible for even a Balrog to break the impenetrable walls of the city.

If it could get inside by stealth, then it'd be game over. There were plenty of places where it could have hidden itself during the day (there were many houses that were lying empty) and then gone prowling around at night. It'd be like a horror movie, people would keep disappearing until the whole place was terrorised. If a few Barrow-wights could drive everyone out of Cardolan through fear, then a Balrog could do the same to a city. There's no parallel to this in the First Age, remember: Men did not build cities, then.

You are right about the Dwarves leaving after Nain was killed. But think, why would Nain stay and try to fight the DB?

Because Khazad-dûm was their home, founded by Durin himself, and their ancestors had lived there for millennia. Of course they'd keep trying to fight for the place, it wasn't just about mithril.

The evil of DB attracted many creatures of evil, such as Goblins.

Not straight away. That happened well after the Dwarves had gone.

Remember, we are not talking about strength, but power.

Exactly. Dragons were incredibly strong, and powerful in some ways (breathing fire, and messing with people's minds) but not in others. On the whole, a Balrog was more powerful.

Glaurung could control people's minds. Already the people who could face Glaurung had to be brave, legendary heroes, such as Turin. Even Turin's mind was dominated by Glaurung. A Balrog cannot do this.

A Balrog couldn't do that particular trick, sure enough, but they weren't all about fiery swords and whips either. The Balrog of Moria nearly blew Gandalf away using magic, when they had their first encounter. 'The counterspell was terrible. It nearly broke me.'

Also remember, the Silmarillion is not the same as LOTR. In the fall of Gondolin, Tuor destroys five Balrogs. That'll make em seem pretty weak, eh? But Tolkien's ideas were premature then, and by LOTR, Balrogs were extremely powerful. Meanwhile, in the Silmarillion/ Lost Tales, they were not.

Umm... no. TFoG wasn't published as part of The Silmarillion for just that sort of reason, that so much had changed since it had been written. BoLT exists in a different context; you can't just lump the two together like that. Tolkien never finished the much-needed rewrite of TFoG that would have brought it into harmony with the rest of his later writings.

[Haunt123]

@Radhruin_EU

The Balrogs could hide their power, but I don't think they could prevent the "fear" sense. Only two creatures on the Books could stimulate this sense: the Balrogs and the Nazgul. If we presume there is a "radius" of fear around the Balrog, it's certainly larger than that of a Nazgul.
Now, you are saying that the Balrog could get inside by stealth: But how? The only way is that he'd sneek his way past the Gates, but even at night, the Guards will not miss a large shadow blotting the stuff behind it. Balrogs aren't ninjas, they can't turn invisible, and the Guards are not drunk on duty.

Like I said before, there is no mention of the Balrog ever entering the Upper Halls of Moria. For all we know, he stayed at the Lower Levels. Nain could have just sealed off the area by making a gate similar to the Hollin Gate. The skill of the Dwarves of Moria was at its peak when the Balrog was freed. If Sauron couldn't open a gate like the Hollin Gate, even with the power of the Ring, DB couldn't either. Nain could keep his precious little Kingdom.

But Nain went back and tried to fight the Balrog, for revenge, perhaps; but even if he didn't want to take revenge, the Dwarves had to get the Mithril back as they depended on it. I'm not saying that lack of Mithril was the main reason why the Dwarves left, but it was certainly one of the reasons.

Ancalagon was said to be "the greatest defence Morgoth had". This means that he was certainly more powerful than the handful of Balrogs left with Morgoth. I don't know why I'm getting the feeling that this means that Dragons could be more powerful than Balrogs.

I myself said that you cannot compare TFoG and LOTR. Perhaps you missed that point. If you think that a Balrog is powerful than any Dragon, state why you think so.

[silverblade5445]

Exactly. Dragons were incredibly strong, and powerful in some ways (breathing fire, and messing with people's minds) but not in others. On the whole, a Balrog was more powerful.


A Balrog couldn't do that particular trick, sure enough, but they weren't all about fiery swords and whips either. The Balrog of Moria nearly blew Gandalf away using magic, when they had their first encounter. 'The counterspell was terrible. It nearly broke me.'

Yes Balrogs did have some sort of magic as well, but so did Dragons....their skin armor was supposed to hold ancient magic which made it almost close to invincible....except ofcourse everyone of them supposedly has a weak spot which obviously is exploited.....and they were physically stronger too.....I'd hazard a guess at a balrog and dragon being almost equally powerful....

Since the origins of dragons is not mentioned anywhere, its hard to judge because we know the origin of Balrogs and hence knowing that they are maia, we can be sure of the category in which they fall....

And actually, dragons were not the only creatures that Morgoth bred in his armies that we dont know the origin of.....there was Carcaroth, then the vampire whose name I forget.....Morgoth's forces were exceptionally varied and tremendously powerful.....

[AllySanders]

okay, okay, let's keep this civil, please?

The only point on which I will weigh in is on the point of the dwarves and Moria.

Tolkien himself states that he based the dwarves on the Jews. Now for the Jews, Israel was the holy land, their home, promised to them by God 4,000 years ago. 2,000 years ago, they lost it to the Romans and after about 70 AD, they were dispersed from the area and around the world. For any other nation, the ensuring 1900 years would have seen them to cease as a people and to be enveloped within other nations. That has happened time and time and time again throughout history. The Assyrians were masters at doing that to other nations they conquered.

However, despite being spread throughout the world into many nations and countries and continents, the Jews maintained their identity as a nation and their desire to return to Israel and Jerusalem--for 2,000 years! And when, at the end of WWII, 100's of thousands went back to Israel and Jerusalem to re-establish the political nation of Israel.

What I'm saying is that though the nation of Israel had ceased to exist politically in Palestine, they continued to exist ethnically for over 2,000 years. That is really remarkable!

Also, during the entire 2,000 year diaspora of the Jews, the entire time, they called Palestine their homeland and wanted to return. Now really, what is there in Palestine that would be considered that valuable? The place is pretty much sand and desert! It wasn't anything economical that drew the Jews--it was their heritage and the fact that it was their historical homeland. There could have been absolutely nothing but rocks, and they still would have fought to return and rebuild their nation there.

So, back to Middle Earth. The Dwarves, as plainly stated by Tolkien himself in his letters, were based on the Jews. That's why they had their own distinction as a people, their own secret language, etc. Tolkien himself said this. He also stated that Moria was to the Dwarves what Palestine was to the Jews. It wasn't just the economical value of the mithril in Moria that drew the dwarves; it was the fact that it was their homeland.

It wouldn't have mattered to the dwarves if there wasn't a single drop of Mithril left in Moria; they would have still fought and bled and died for it over and over and over again throughout history until they either got it back or ceased to exist as a people, because it was their heritage and their home. This was their primary focus for Moria. I'm not saying the mithril wasn't important, but it was just the icing on the cake to them; the heritage of Moria was the single most important reason why the dwarves would not give up on it.

[Haunt123]

okay, okay, let's keep this civil, please?

Ah, I'm sorry, I just read my post again and noticed I sounded really angry. My bad, I became a bit too sarcastic after watching a couple of House episodes No offence, Radhruin, if there is any group of people I like, it's the lore junkies.

Also, during the entire 2,000 year diaspora of the Jews, the entire time, they called Palestine their homeland and wanted to return. Now really, what is there in Palestine that would be considered that valuable? The place is pretty much sand and desert! It wasn't anything economical that drew the Jews--it was their heritage and the fact that it was their historical homeland. There could have been absolutely nothing but rocks, and they still would have fought to return and rebuild their nation there.

Dont. Mention. Israel and Palestine. On. The. Forums.
We all have different opinions on it. Trust me, this discussion won't end well if you mention sensitive stuff like that.

So, back to Middle Earth. The Dwarves, as plainly stated by Tolkien himself in his letters, were based on the Jews. That's why they had their own distinction as a people, their own secret language, etc. Tolkien himself said this. He also stated that Moria was to the Dwarves what Palestine was to the Jews. It wasn't just the economical value of the mithril in Moria that drew the dwarves; it was the fact that it was their homeland.

It wouldn't have mattered to the dwarves if there wasn't a single drop of Mithril left in Moria; they would have still fought and bled and died for it over and over and over again throughout history until they either got it back or ceased to exist as a people, because it was their heritage and their home. This was their primary focus for Moria. I'm not saying the mithril wasn't important, but it was just the icing on the cake to them; the heritage of Moria was the single most important reason why the dwarves would not give up on it.

I'm pretty sure Gandalf told Pippin that the sole reason the Dwarves wanted to come back to Moria was Mithril.
It went something like this, IIRC:

"Then why do the Dwarves want to come back?" asked Pippin
"For Mithril" answered Gandalf

... yeeeah sorry for repeating what I said, only in dialogue.

[amien]

What did the Witch-King's magic do for Grog exactly?