Questions Over Lore

[Radhruin_EU]

The Balrogs could hide their power, but I don't think they could prevent the "fear" sense.

Oh? Why? By the sound of it, the Balrog was outside the Chamber of Mazarbul for quite some time watching the Orcs' fruitless efforts against the Fellowship. When it went quiet, the Balrog walked into the room to see what was what. There'd been a deep voice to be heard outside the room, on or off, including after that big Orc-chief had been killed by Aragorn. The implication is that the owner of that mysterious deep voice was none other than the Balrog, and yet nobody in the room senses anything. Later, when it showed itself properly, wreathed in flame and with its power openly declared, they could sense its aura of power and terror from a distance that must have been tens of yards at least. So like other Maiar, it seems it can hide its power and with it, the fear. The fear comes from its power, that's the thing, it's all part and parcel.

Now, you are saying that the Balrog could get inside by stealth: But how? The only way is that he'd sneek his way past the Gates, but even at night, the Guards will not miss a large shadow blotting the stuff behind it. Balrogs aren't ninjas, they can't turn invisible, and the Guards are not drunk on duty.

3AM on a really dark night and you wouldn't even see a moving shadow.

Like I said before, there is no mention of the Balrog ever entering the Upper Halls of Moria. For all we know, he stayed at the Lower Levels. Nain could have just sealed off the area by making a gate similar to the Hollin Gate. The skill of the Dwarves of Moria was at its peak when the Balrog was freed. If Sauron couldn't open a gate like the Hollin Gate, even with the power of the Ring, DB couldn't either. Nain could keep his precious little Kingdom.

On the inside, Moria was evidently too complex to defend effectively. It's a city, not a fortress: once the enemy get in, it's game over in short order. That's what happened to Balin's expedition, they failed to hold the eastern gate and the Bridge against the Orcs.

But Nain went back and tried to fight the Balrog, for revenge, perhaps; but even if he didn't want to take revenge, the Dwarves had to get the Mithril back as they depended on it. I'm not saying that lack of Mithril was the main reason why the Dwarves left, but it was certainly one of the reasons.

Yes, one of the reasons but not the only one!

Ancalagon was said to be "the greatest defence Morgoth had". This means that he was certainly more powerful than the handful of Balrogs left with Morgoth. I don't know why I'm getting the feeling that this means that Dragons could be more powerful than Balrogs.

I don't know why you are, either. We're told that Balrogs were the deadliest bane of Elves, except for the Dark Lord himself (i.e. Morgoth originally, and then Sauron). Dragons had notorious weak spots, their underbelly was vulnerable; Glaurung was beaten up by Dwarves, and mortally wounded by just one man. Smaug was brought down by one man, too. You're confusing size with power. It's not like Gandalf's physical form was big, was it?

I myself said that you cannot compare TFoG and LOTR. Perhaps you missed that point.

And yet you went and did it anyway

If you think that a Balrog is powerful than any Dragon, state why you think so.

Because we're told so!

[Haunt123]

Oh? Why? By the sound of it, the Balrog was outside the Chamber of Mazarbul for quite some time watching the Orcs' fruitless efforts against the Fellowship. When it went quiet, the Balrog walked into the room to see what was what. There'd been a deep voice to be heard outside the room, on or off, including after that big Orc-chief had been killed by Aragorn. The implication is that the owner of that mysterious deep voice was none other than the Balrog, and yet nobody in the room senses anything. Later, when it showed itself properly, wreathed in flame and with its power openly declared, they could sense its aura of power and terror from a distance that must have been tens of yards at least. So like other Maiar, it seems it can hide its power and with it, the fear. The fear comes from its power, that's the thing, it's all part and parcel.

OK, you're right on this one. Forgot that part.

3AM on a really dark night and you wouldn't even see a moving shadow.

Uh.. they have something called torches, y'know, fire... They don't exactly guard the City of the Kings in the blind dark

On the inside, Moria was evidently too complex to defend effectively. It's a city, not a fortress: once the enemy get in, it's game over in short order. That's what happened to Balin's expedition, they failed to hold the eastern gate and the Bridge against the Orcs.

You're presuming that all the Dwarves had seenthe Balrog and known that they couldn't have fought him. Many Dwarves didn't know jack about DB. They still left, because of the reasons I presented

Yes, one of the reasons but not the only one!

Certainly. In fact, it wasn't that huge a reason compared to DB

I don't know why you are, either. We're told that Balrogs were the deadliest bane of Elves, except for the Dark Lord himself (i.e. Morgoth originally, and then Sauron). Dragons had notorious weak spots, their underbelly was vulnerable; Glaurung was beaten up by Dwarves, and mortally wounded by just one man. Smaug was brought down by one man, too. You're confusing size with power. It's not like Gandalf's physical form was big, was it?

Ancalagon pushed back the very Hosts of the Valar. Meanwhile, the Host of the Valar destroyed most of the Balrogs. *Sigh* let's just agree to disagree.

And yet you went and did it anyway

The comparison I made was something like this:
"You'd think that outer space is black, and your hair are black. Thus your hair is outer space. Right? Wrong. It is not"
Over here, you cannot accuse me of comparing hair to outer space.

Because we're told so!

Where?
BTW sorry for sounding angry in my previous post. It was unintentional.


@amien
Grond did strike the Gates, but the Gates still held. The WK cried out a spell 3 times, and then finally, Grond shattered the impenetrable Gates.

[AllySanders]

Ah, I'm sorry, I just read my post again and noticed I sounded really angry. My bad, I became a bit too sarcastic after watching a couple of House episodes No offence, Radhruin, if there is any group of people I like, it's the lore junkies.

that's okay--that's the problem with only being able to communicate in writing--we can only see the words and not the mannerisms behind the words that would better let us know each other's intents. Humans use body language so often!

Dont. Mention. Israel and Palestine. On. The. Forums.
We all have different opinions on it. Trust me, this discussion won't end well if you mention sensitive stuff like that.

I am well aware that Israel is a divisive topic. However, the quote was mean to be placed in a purely historical sense and was in no way inviting a commentary on the political and religious landscape of the Middle East. Also, like it or not, Israel and the Jews are a part of history; refusing to even mention them for fear of argument, especially when mentioning them only in passing and in a benign third-person manner, only serves to invite more propaganda and to silence history. How does it serve humanity if we choose to ignore and silence the parts of history that repulse us? Does that not instead invite us to repeat the mistakes of the past?

In any case, I was simply stating what Tolkien himself said, both in his letters and in his interviews:

"The dwarves of course are quite obviously - wouldn't you say that in many ways they remind you of the Jews? Their words are Semitic obviously, constructed to be Semitic. " - JRR Tolkien, Interview with J.R.R. Tolkien, First broadcast in January 1971 on the BBC Radio 4 programme 'Now Read On ...'. The interviewer was Dennis Gerrolt.

And,

"...I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews; at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the language of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...." - JRR Tolkien, letter 176

Therefore, Tolkien himself was making the comparison, as quoted from his own words. I was not making a commentary on the Jews themselves or of people's perceptions of them, and I do NOT invite commentary on the Middle East or the Jewish nation and explicitly request that no debate on the Middle East be started; please keep all debate central on LOTR only and the current topics at hand. I most certainly do not want to stir hard feelings on delicate matters, and was only referring to statements made by the professor himself!

And in any case, while he might have had that people in mind when he created the dwarves, he in no way meant for them to be an allegory for them. In his own quotes, he described them as being similar to Grimms Fairy Tales and closer to Germanic lore than the elves, but still different:

"...Mr. Baggins began as a comic tale among conventional and inconsistent Grimm's fairy-tale dwarves....." letter 19

"The dwarves are not really Germanic 'dwarfs', and I call them 'dwarves' to mark that. They are not naturally evil, not necessarily hostile, and not a kind of maggot-folk bred in stone; but a variety of incarnate rational creature." - letter 156

..."The dwarves of my legends are far nearer to the dwarfs of Germanic [legends] than are the Elves, but still in many ways very different from them." - letter 297



The dwarves in any case, were very dedicated to their own history and their own homelands, and while the riches of the Lonely Mountain and of Moria were certainly of extreme importance to them based on their natures, that was not the only reason behind their desire to reclaim those lands. Both were considered to be their homelands and of extreme value to them for that reason as well. That was the only point I was attempting to make in my comments; nothing more.


And for Gandalf's comments to Pippin: do you happen to know where that can be found? I would like to read it! (of course, that will get me off on another passage, and before I know it, I'll have read the next 3 chapters in the book......not a bad way to spend a Saturday afternoon, though )

[Radhruin_EU]

Uh.. they have something called torches, y'know, fire... They don't exactly guard the City of the Kings in the blind dark

Well, two things about that: first off, the trouble with torches is that they don't give off that much light but it's more than enough to wreck your night vision, so you can't see a damn thing out there in the dark past the firelight. The other thing is that Balrogs were fire-spirits and possessed of considerable magic. We know at least one Maia who could make fires go out as well as starting them. See where I'm going with this?

You're presuming that all the Dwarves had seenthe Balrog and known that they couldn't have fought him. Many Dwarves didn't know jack about DB. They still left, because of the reasons I presented

The long-enduring mystery over what DB was suggests that those who got to see it up close and personal didn't survive to tell the tale. Otherwise Gandalf would have figured it out. Hmm, shadow and flame, let me see...

The comparison I made was something like this:
"You'd think that outer space is black, and your hair are black. Thus your hair is outer space. Right? Wrong. It is not"
Over here, you cannot accuse me of comparing hair to outer space.

In point of fact, my complaint was that you tried to lump the published Silmarillion and BoLT together as if they agreed with one another. It's not called the Book of Lost Tales for nothing, there's all sorts of oddities in there. Wimpier Balrogs isn't the only detail that stands out in TFoG, for one thing.

Where?

Why would Balrogs be considered to be the most deadly bane of Elves, the Dark Lord excepted, if dragons were worse?

[Haunt123]

Well, two things about that: first off, the trouble with torches is that they don't give off that much light but it's more than enough to wreck your night vision, so you can't see a damn thing out there in the dark past the firelight. The other thing is that Balrogs were fire-spirits and possessed of considerable magic. We know at least one Maia who could make fires go out as well as starting them. See where I'm going with this?

1. The entire Gate is always illuminated. Even in real life fortresses, gates are always completely illuminated.

2. The Guards wouldn't just chill out if the torches go out. They would raise an alarm for Nazgul. Nazgul could also turn lights off using their magic. Thanks to the alarm, the shadowed Balrog will be caught.

That is, if for some reason the Guards left the Gate open the entire night. There are extremely ridiculous circumstances in which a Balrog would actually be able to take Minas Tirith.

The long-enduring mystery over what DB was suggests that those who got to see it up close and personal didn't survive to tell the tale. Otherwise Gandalf would have figured it out. Hmm, shadow and flame, let me see...

IIRC there were a few Dwarves who knew... Dain Ironfoot comes to mind. But that was after the Fall of Moria.

In point of fact, my complaint was that you tried to lump the published Silmarillion and BoLT together as if they agreed with one another. It's not called the Book of Lost Tales for nothing, there's all sorts of oddities in there. Wimpier Balrogs isn't the only detail that stands out in TFoG, for one thing.

Alright, alright, I'm sorry I called TFoG the Silmarillion by mistake.

Why would Balrogs be considered to be the most deadly bane of Elves, the Dark Lord excepted, if dragons were worse?

Not because the Balrogs killed truckloads of Elves... the 3 million Orcs killed more.
Feanor and many other Elven Kings were killed by a Balrog. Also, Balrogs have a very high kill count per head, considering how there were only a few of them.

The thing is, there was only one Acalagon. Ancalagon as an individual was more powerful than most Balrogs. However, he didn't fight that long to earn as bad a reputation as the Balrogs.

I love how we're having 4 arguments at once
1. Can a Balrog take Minas Tirith by itself?
2. Was DB the sole reason why the Dwarves fled from Moria?
3. Is Areorlas an idiot for mistaking TFoG for the Silmarillion?
4. Are the Balrogs stronger than all Dragons?

This is confusing

[Radhruin_EU]

1. The entire Gate is always illuminated. Even in real life fortresses, gates are always completely illuminated.

2. The Guards wouldn't just chill out if the torches go out. They would raise an alarm for Nazgul. Nazgul could also turn lights off using their magic. Thanks to the alarm, the shadowed Balrog will be caught.

That is, if for some reason the Guards left the Gate open the entire night. There are extremely ridiculous circumstances in which a Balrog would actually be able to take Minas Tirith.

How could anyone catch anything if it were not just dark, but supernaturally dark? Men couldn't cope with things like that, it'd be something they'd never even encountered before. The Nazgul didn't have that trick of moving in a shadow of their own making, they weren't powerful enough.

If Gandalf could find his way into Dol Guldur by means of Maiaric tricksiness, there's no reason to think a Balrog couldn't do the same at a fortress Men had built. It'd be easier, if anything, because that place didn't have the sort of scary sleepless watchers that Sauron's fortresses did.

IIRC there were a few Dwarves who knew... Dain Ironfoot comes to mind. But that was after the Fall of Moria.

We don't know if he'd seen it or sensed it, or what it was he might seen. Just a lurking shadow, probably, but a shadow with a presence - I imagine the Balrog didn't want the Dwarves to forget who really owned the place. Dain certainly got the message

2. Was DB the sole reason why the Dwarves fled from Moria?

There's no argument to be had there. DB had the place to itself for a good long while.

[amien]

One thing that I was never ale to fully understand was that the Elves were said to be the greatest crafters, yet the dwarves were able to create gates that Sauron couldn't pass. I know that the Dwarves were really Aeul's (Spelling.. again) children. He was the Valar of smithing/crafting, dwarves obviously held the monopoly over the skills in crafting.

Also, this is a stupid question, but what was the purpose of creating the elves? Were the elves created by Iluvatar, or another Valar?

As I was typing this I just thought of a third question :P
but werent the dwarves/Aeul punished for him awakening them prematurely? I know the Elves were the "First Born" though, what is the signifigance behing that?

[AllySanders]

One thing that I was never ale to fully understand was that the Elves were said to be the greatest crafters, yet the dwarves were able to create gates that Sauron couldn't pass. I know that the Dwarves were really Aeul's (Spelling.. again) children. He was the Valar of smithing/crafting, dwarves obviously held the monopoly over the skills in crafting.

Also, this is a stupid question, but what was the purpose of creating the elves? Were the elves created by Iluvatar, or another Valar?

As I was typing this I just thought of a third question :P
but werent the dwarves/Aeul punished for him awakening them prematurely? I know the Elves were the "First Born" though, what is the signifigance behing that?

The Elves and men were created by Iluvatar (Eru) as an independent act of his own, separate from the creations of the Valar. That is why they are called the children of Iluvatar and refer to him as "father". Whereas everything else in Middle Earth were created by the Valar and Maiar following the direction given to them upon their own creation and from the music taught to them by Eru himself. This is why the Valar longed for and looked forward to the coming of the elves and men. (though sometimes it seems that they got the elves and that was it )

The dwarves, however, were created by Aule himself--not Eru--because he was impatient for the coming of the children. He longed for someone to teach his work and about Eru and thus created the dwarves. Eru rebuked him, yes, because he ran ahead of his creator's design, but did not punish him for it; instead, he accepted the creation and gave life to the dwarves, adopting them as his children. However, because it was Eru's design that the elves awaken first, he had Aule put the dwarves asleep until the time appointed for them. At least, that's how the legend goes according to the elves



This is from the Letters of Tolkien, letter 212, written by Tolkien himself (who I think is an excellent authority on the subject ):

"Elves and Men were called the 'children of God' because they were, so to speak, a private addition to the Design, by the Creator, and one in which the Valar had no part. (Their 'themes' were introduced into the Music by the One, when the discords of Melkor arose.) The Valar knew that they would appear, and the great ones knew when and how (though not precisely), but they knew little of their nature, and their foresight, derived from their pre-knowledge of the Design, was imperfect or failed in the matter of the deeds of the Children. The uncorrupted Valar, therefore, yearned for the Children before they came and loved them afterwards, as creatures 'other' than themselves, independent of them and their artistry, 'children' as being weaker and more ignorant than the Valar, but of equal lineage (deriving being direct from the One); even though under their authority as rulers of Arda. The corrupted, as was Melkor/Morgoth and his followers (of whom Sauron was one of the chief) saw in them the ideal material for subjects and slaves, to whom they could become masters and 'gods', envying the Children, and secretly hating them, in proportion as they became rebels against the One (and Manwe his Lieutenant in Ea).

In this mythical 'prehistory' immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was part of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Iluvatar (God). But it must be remembered that mythically these tales are Elf-centered, not anthropocentric, and Men only appear in them, at what must be a point long after their Coming. This is therefore an 'Elvish' view, and does not necessarily have anything to say for or against such beliefs as the Christian that 'death' is not part of human nature, but a punishment for sin (rebellion), a result of the 'Fall'. It should be regarded as an Elvish perception of what death - not being tied to the 'circles of the world' - should now become for Men, however it arose. A divine 'punishment' is also a divine 'gift', if accepted, since its object is ultimate blessing, and the supreme inventiveness of the Creator will make 'punishments' (that is changes of design) produce a good not otherwise to be attained: a 'mortal' Man has probably (an Elf would say) a higher if unrevealed destiny than a longeval one. To attempt by device or 'magic' to recover longevity is thus a supreme folly and wickedness of 'mortals'. Longevity or counterfeit 'immortality' (true immortality is beyond Ea) is the chief bait of Sauron - it leads the small to a Gollum and the great to a Ringwraith."



Also from the same letter:

"Aule, for instance, one of the Great, is a sense 'fell'; for he so desired to see the Children, that he became impatient and tried to anticipate the will of the Creator. Being the greatest of all craftsmen he tried to make children according to his imperfect knowledge of their kind. When he had made thirteen, God spoke to him in anger, but not without pity: for Aule had done this thing not out of evil desire to have slaves and subjects of his own, but out of impatient love, desiring children to talk to and teach, sharing with them the praise of Iluvatar and his great love of the materials of which the world is made.

The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold', said the One: 'these creatures of thine have only thy will, and they movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'

Then Aule in grief and repentance humbled himself and asked for pardon. And he said: "I will destroy these images of my presumption, and wait upon thy will.' And he took a great hammer, raising it to smite the eldest of his images; but it flinched and cowered from him. And as he withheld his stroke, astonished, he heard the laughter of Iluvatar.

'Do you wonder at this?' he said. 'Behold! thy creatures now live, free from thy will! For I have seen thy humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into my design.'

This is the Elvish legend of the making of the Dwarves; but the Elves report that Iluvatar said thus also: 'Nonetheless I will not suffer my design to be forstalled: thy children shall not awake before mine own.' And he commanded Aule to lay the fathers of the Dwarves severally in deep places, each with his mate, save Durin the eldest who had none. There they should sleep long, until Iluvatar bade them awake. Nonetheless there has been for the most part little love between the Dwarves and the children of Iluvatar. And of the fate that Iluvatar has set upon the children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it."


I think the fact that Aule's understanding of the children was imperfect explains why dwarvish women have beards and why it's so difficult to tell them apart

Though now I wonder: from these 13 dwarves came the 7 houses of the dwarves. But how did Durin have a line and a house if he had no mate? Because Aule spread them out throughout the world when he put them to sleep. Did they all gravitate to each other and intermarry amongst their children? How long would that take, I wonder?

[Haunt123]

Though now I wonder: from these 13 dwarves came the 7 houses of the dwarves. But how did Durin have a line and a house if he had no mate? Because Aule spread them out throughout the world when he put them to sleep. Did they all gravitate to each other and intermarry amongst their children? How long would that take, I wonder?

The 7 Houses were separate, so I'm guessing there was no intermarrying. I guess the only logical conclusion is... uh oh, someone cheated...
Though I agree, that would have been difficult if they had thousands of miles between them. Perhaps, since Durin lived so long, he married one of the children of the other 6 Dwarves?

@Radhruin_EU

Dol Guldur did not have impenetrable walls. Dol Guldur did not not have only one, nearly impenetrable Gate. Dol Guldur wasn't guarded by vigilant Men of Minas Anor (vigilant even though their power waned), but was guarded by mere Orcs. Dol Guldur did not have a Palantir. The only way in which Dol Guldur was better than Minas Tirith was that it had Sauron, in his weakest form till date.

Gandalf often visited Minas Tirith and would have eventually figured there was a Balrog there if it had entered, thanks to the method you're suggesting it would use, "slowly taking out civillians and spreading terror". How? He was a Maiar.
There were still a handful of Dunedain in Gondor.

Sorry, but I still think it's a ridiculous idea that a single Balrog can take the most powerful Fortress Good had in the TA.

[Radhruin_EU]

Dol Guldur did not have impenetrable walls.

And how's that relevant to an entry by stealth? However Gandalf managed to get into Dol Guldur, I rather doubt it involved knocking a hole in the walls.

Dol Guldur did not not have only one, nearly impenetrable Gate.

That's an awfully definite thing to say when we have no information to go on.

Dol Guldur wasn't guarded by vigilant Men of Minas Anor (vigilant even though their power waned), but was guarded by mere Orcs. Dol Guldur did not have a Palantir. The only way in which Dol Guldur was better than Minas Tirith was that it had Sauron, in his weakest form till date.

As I already said and you should in any case know full well, Sauron had sleepless watchers at his fortresses, those creepy statue things. Very, very nasty. Truly ceaseless vigilance. Not to mention whatever other horrors he had there that made the place so terrible - I mean come on, it cast a dark shadow over all of Mirkwood, and the southern half in particular. Its owner wouldn't have been known as the Necromancer for nothing, the place must have been awash with evil spirits. Yet here we have Gandalf, managing to get in there and poke around, even if he did only barely avoid being caught.

It seems to me that if one Maiar can pull off stunts like that, denying all possibility of the bad guys doing that in reverse is a bit much. Look at what it took to keep Elvish cities safe and secure in the First Age, and that was with keen-eyed Elves to defend them rather than just Men.

Gandalf often visited Minas Tirith and would have eventually figured there was a Balrog there if it had entered, thanks to the method you're suggesting it would use, "slowly taking out civillians and spreading terror". How? He was a Maiar.

Unless he was busy elsewhere, as he evidently was when the Balrog was making Moria a place of horror. An actively-involved Balrog, actually on Sauron's side and doing stuff for him and privy to his plans, would have been the worst thing that could ever have happened. Just as well the Balrog only seems to have wanted a quiet life and a nice dark place to call its own.

The thing about Minas Tirith is that however grand it is, it's in the Third Age. The Balrog was a full-on supernatural terror from before the First Age, something Men were simply not equipped to deal with. Just as with Smaug, had it ever become actively involved on Sauron's side the mayhem it could have caused would have been unbelievable (and almost certainly fatal to the Free Peoples).

[silverblade5445]

Unless he was busy elsewhere, as he evidently was when the Balrog was making Moria a place of horror. An actively-involved Balrog, actually on Sauron's side and doing stuff for him and privy to his plans, would have been the worst thing that could ever have happened. Just as well the Balrog only seems to have wanted a quiet life and a nice dark place to call its own.

The thing about Minas Tirith is that however grand it is, it's in the Third Age. The Balrog was a full-on supernatural terror from before the First Age, something Men were simply not equipped to deal with. Just as with Smaug, had it ever become actively involved on Sauron's side the mayhem it could have caused would have been unbelievable (and almost certainly fatal to the Free Peoples).

Yeah Sauron wouldve been very powerful had he had an active Balrog on his side....but Sauron is not a Valar like Morgoth.....Sauron, although very powerful himself, did not have an army even a fraction of what Morgoth's army was......Sauron did not have enough power himself to control Balrogs and Dragons....even the nazgul, his most terrifying servants, are under his command because of the nine rings of power with which he ensnared them....he most probably did not have the power to command such powerful and magical creatures as balrogs....

And the Balrog himself.....when he laid Moria to waste and made the dwarves flee, its safe to assume, he was only clearing out the disturbance in his place of rest and hiding.....it did not do so to purposely take over the dwarven kingdom.....just like all the other servants of Morgoth and Sauron, things like the Balrog apparently would need a driving force.....someone's will that drove it, to do dangerous deeds such as attacking Minas Tirith.....with no such force of will, a single Balrog couldnt think of attacking let alone taking out something as powerful as Minas Tirith....and even if it did, it wouldnt be successful......creatures like those needed a master to command their strength for purposes of destruction and domination....just like the entire army of Mordor fled when the Dark Tower fell....they were still enough to overpower the Captains of the West with ease....but they did not because powerful as they are, they cannot fight on their own at their full potential....they lacked the force of will.....if cornered, or if their home is threatened, maybe yes....like Durins Bane when someone disturbed him in Moria....but otherwise, it wouldnt be capable enough of such deeds....

And about stealth and detection.....Rivendell had Elrond who would immediately sense something as powerful as a Balrog in the valley of Imladris....same with Galadriel and Lothlorien......and Minas Tirith had the palantir.....it would be close to impossible to use stealth against such powerful people and magical things like the elven rings and the palantir....even though Minas Tirith was in the 3rd age, the palantir was made ages ago...by Feanor himself....even a maia couldnt fool that....

So for the purpose of that debate, unless it had a master like Morgoth, a solo balrog could not take out Minas Tirith or Lothlorien or Rivendell.....imo....cause destruction, yes.....but conquer, I doubt it....

[Radhruin_EU]

Yeah Sauron wouldve been very powerful had he had an active Balrog on his side....but Sauron is not a Valar like Morgoth.....Sauron, although very powerful himself, did not have an army even a fraction of what Morgoth's army was......Sauron did not have enough power himself to control Balrogs and Dragons....even the nazgul, his most terrifying servants, are under his command because of the nine rings of power with which he ensnared them....he most probably did not have the power to command such powerful and magical creatures as balrogs....

Sauron had, in fact, been the Balrogs' superior back when he was Morgoth's lieutenant, but that was ancient history. He certainly couldn't control beings like that, but he could come to some private arrangement with them (much as he'd come to an accommodation with Shelob). As it was, DB obviously wasn't interested in risking itself for Sauron's glory, but that was seemingly fine with Sauron because that kept Moria out of the hands of the Dwarves and with it, the mithril (he coveted the stuff, he just couldn't get enough of it). Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff

And about stealth and detection.....Rivendell had Elrond who would immediately sense something as powerful as a Balrog in the valley of Imladris....same with Galadriel and Lothlorien......and Minas Tirith had the palantir.....it would be close to impossible to use stealth against such powerful people and magical things like the elven rings and the palantir....even though Minas Tirith was in the 3rd age, the palantir was made ages ago...by Feanor himself....even a maia couldnt fool that....

A palantir would only look where you told it to, it wasn't like an early-warning system or anything. The one in Minas Tirith wasn't working properly at the time anyway due to Sauron messing with it via the one he had. Remember, he used it to show Denethor only what he wanted him to see, until the poor bloke decided all was lost and went mad.

Sure, a Balrog would be reluctant to tangle with the likes of Elrond or Galadriel but Men and Dwarves, no problem. That's why the plot keeps DB lurking in Moria instead of going walkabout

[Nymphonic]

Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff

You know, I just realized that the last person to talk to the last dragon was a simple Hobbit from an unknown(uncouth according to Radagast) area in the back waters of Middle Earth called the Shire.

I can't imagine Smaug being Sauron's lackey after all that time being on his own. He just seemed too independent. Maybe back in the day but in Bilbo's time? I just can't see it. Especially with him kicking back on a pile of treasure.

[AllySanders]

I'm staying out of the main argument here but only want to say that perhaps if Sauron offered Smaug a cut of the riches of Minis Tirith, he might have been able to get Smaug involved on his side--after all, dragons can never seem to have enough riches! At any rate, Gandalf obviously feared Smaug's involvement.

Here's a question: Both Gandalf and Aragorn had traveled through Moria before the fellowship's trip through there. Aragorn encountered something terrible and wasn't keen on going back, but Gandalf had no problem with it (don't pay attention to the movie's portrayal; it didn't match the books).

Also, when we get to the battle at Balin's tomb and afterwards, when Gandalf sends them ahead and uses his spells and encountered DB for the first time, it seems he didn't know what it was.

It just appears to me--and I will admit that it's been a while since I read it so perhaps I'm misinterpreting it--but it appears that Gandalf didn't know that DB was in residence in Moria. Is that how it appears to others?

If that is so, that could be a big plus for the balrog in terms of stealth.

Of course, in any case, if the Balrog had come to an agreement with Sauron and chose to fight for him for whatever reason, he most certainly wouldn't have been alone when he came against Minis Tirith, and wouldn't have had to worry about stealth. And you can certainly say that if he had come against Minis Tirith, along with Sauron's army and all 9 nazgul, I don't think the battle on the Pelenor would have ended quite the same......And if Smaug was also still in the picture and also along for the ride, it definitely wouldn't have ended the same!

that makes me wonder: did Gandalf know DB was in Moria and intended to fight him all along as to keep him from aiding Sauron, such as his manipulations to get Smaug out of the way and to get the White Council to finally attack Dol Goldur? I mean, Gandalf was a great manipulator, so I wouldn't put it past him and he would know that he himself was probably about the only person in ME in this age that could fight it with any hope of winning--unless, of course, he could convince Glorfindel to do a repeat performance If that was the case, it would seem that he was pretty confident he could beat it. This is only true, of course, if I am mis-reading the text and Gandalf really did know it was there.

[silverblade5445]

Sauron had, in fact, been the Balrogs' superior back when he was Morgoth's lieutenant, but that was ancient history. He certainly couldn't control beings like that, but he could come to some private arrangement with them (much as he'd come to an accommodation with Shelob). As it was, DB obviously wasn't interested in risking itself for Sauron's glory, but that was seemingly fine with Sauron because that kept Moria out of the hands of the Dwarves and with it, the mithril (he coveted the stuff, he just couldn't get enough of it). Smaug might have been more forthcoming when it came to doing something more useful but that, of course, was why Gandalf had been so keen on him being taken out of the picture. Personally, though, I can't imagine why Smaug would have been bothered anyway: dragons seem to have had simple tastes, a nice cosy lair and a big pile of gold to sleep on. They only got really upset if someone nicked any of their stuff

A palantir would only look where you told it to, it wasn't like an early-warning system or anything. The one in Minas Tirith wasn't working properly at the time anyway due to Sauron messing with it via the one he had. Remember, he used it to show Denethor only what he wanted him to see, until the poor bloke decided all was lost and went mad.

I can't imagine Smaug being Sauron's lackey after all that time being on his own. He just seemed too independent. Maybe back in the day but in Bilbo's time? I just can't see it. Especially with him kicking back on a pile of treasure.

Yep exactly the point.....Smaug most probably wouldnt work for Sauron willingly.....even if Sauron had tempted it with more treasures because dragons are exceptionally cunning and wise creatures.....I dont think even Sauron would've been able to come to a deal with one of them and get them to work for him....

I'm staying out of the main argument here but only want to say that perhaps if Sauron offered Smaug a cut of the riches of Minis Tirith, he might have been able to get Smaug involved on his side--after all, dragons can never seem to have enough riches! At any rate, Gandalf obviously feared Smaug's involvement.

Here's a question: Both Gandalf and Aragorn had traveled through Moria before the fellowship's trip through there. Aragorn encountered something terrible and wasn't keen on going back, but Gandalf had no problem with it (don't pay attention to the movie's portrayal; it didn't match the books).

Also, when we get to the battle at Balin's tomb and afterwards, when Gandalf sends them ahead and uses his spells and encountered DB for the first time, it seems he didn't know what it was.

It just appears to me--and I will admit that it's been a while since I read it so perhaps I'm misinterpreting it--but it appears that Gandalf didn't know that DB was in residence in Moria. Is that how it appears to others?

If that is so, that could be a big plus for the balrog in terms of stealth.

Gandalf obviously knew that Durin's Bane lived in Moria....but he did not know the nature of the creature.....as in what exactly it is......cause no one had faced it since the dwarves had......the movies show Saruman knowing what it is exactly.....but thats not true......no one knew it was a balrog in there......all that everyone knew a dangerous creature lurked in Moria called by the name of Durin's Bane....

Also Gandalf did not expect to face whatever Durin's Bane was, when they passed.....he was hoping to cross Moria without even arousing the orcs......he merely wanted to cross without raising any sort of alarm.....and he was only expecting to face orcs if at all any alarm was raised accidentally.....

So even when he encounters the balrog for the first time in the chamber of mazarbul, he understands he was facing a very powerful magical being.....but only understands the full truth and nature of the creature when Legolas yells out that a Balrog has come.....Gandalf then realizes what it is and decides to face it.....

So its not as much the stealth of the balrog that is the plus but rather its anonymity.....no one has seen Durin's Bane since the dwarves fled and there is no record nor anything at all of the exact name of the terror in moria.....just whispers and dread of a dark dangerous creature.......

Of course, in any case, if the Balrog had come to an agreement with Sauron and chose to fight for him for whatever reason, he most certainly wouldn't have been alone when he came against Minis Tirith, and wouldn't have had to worry about stealth. And you can certainly say that if he had come against Minis Tirith, along with Sauron's army and all 9 nazgul, I don't think the battle on the Pelenor would have ended quite the same......And if Smaug was also still in the picture and also along for the ride, it definitely wouldn't have ended the same!

that makes me wonder: did Gandalf know DB was in Moria and intended to fight him all along as to keep him from aiding Sauron, such as his manipulations to get Smaug out of the way and to get the White Council to finally attack Dol Goldur? I mean, Gandalf was a great manipulator, so I wouldn't put it past him and he would know that he himself was probably about the only person in ME in this age that could fight it with any hope of winning--unless, of course, he could convince Glorfindel to do a repeat performance If that was the case, it would seem that he was pretty confident he could beat it. This is only true, of course, if I am mis-reading the text and Gandalf really did know it was there.

His dealings with Thorins and co. and the whole Smaug affair does sound like something Gandalf would do to manipulate people into taking out a powerful enemy.....but I think he did that merely because Smaug by himelf was becoming a threat to that part of the world.....too much so.....

Also, if I read it correctly, Gandalf mightve been looking forward to getting a dwarven kingdom to be re-established in the Lonely Mountain.....Imho, he dint do it to take out Smaug fearing an alliance with Sauron, but more so to get a dwarven stronghold in that area which would later help in the final battles with Sauron.....if Smaug is defeated, Gandalf knew that the area of the Lonely Mountain, Dale and Northern Mirkwood would become very powerful utilizing the treasures of Smaug's hoard and would be strengthened with the alliance of three very strong races.....the Men of Dale, the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and the Elves of Mirkwood......which does turn out to be true.....King Thranduil, King Dain and King Brand do make a good stronghold in those parts against the armies of Sauron in the war of the Ring.....so my guess would be that he did the whole Smaug manipulation more to achieve this alliance of free peoples more than out of fear of Smaug's alliance with Sauron.....

[richsabre]

i think its at least accepted that gandalf wanted another frontier for the war of the ring, which as it happened was needed with both dale and erebor, and he also wanted smaug out of the way
i dont know if its been said yet, but gandalf and thorins meeting in bree is wrote about in the unfinished tales

[AllySanders]

i think its at least accepted that gandalf wanted another frontier for the war of the ring, which as it happened was needed with both dale and erebor, and he also wanted smaug out of the way
i dont know if its been said yet, but gandalf and thorins meeting in bree is wrote about in the unfinished tales

*eek!*

Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place!

[AllySanders]

This comes from the appendices to Return of the King, Apenndix A, Part III, Durin's Folk, concerning Gandalf and his thoughts on Smaug:

"On a time Thorin, returning west from a journey, stayed at Bree for the night. There Gandalf was also. He was on his way to the Shire, which he had not visited for some twenty years. He was weary, and thought to rest there for a while.

Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be acheived?

'I grieved at the fall of Thorin,' said Gandalf; ' and now we hear that Dain has fallen.......Yet things might ahve gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles ini Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what migh thave been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be be no queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. but that has been averted--bcause I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree.'"


Surmising from Gandalf's own words, he clearly DID at least fear that Sauron would have been able to use Smaug as a weapon against Lorien and Rivendell in particular. So while certainly establishing the people of Dale and the dwarves of Eriabor in strength so to be able to appose the armies of the east was part of Gandalf's intent, so too was the singular destruction of the dragon to keep Sauron from using him.

It also seems that if he had not convinced the White Council to drive Sauron from Dol Goldur, that Sauron would have taken the war into the north with intentions of reclaiming Angmar and sweeping south from there, destroying Rivendell first and then everything else in his path.

[richsabre]

*eek!*

Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place!

ah, i dont know about this, and quite frankly i havnt got the time to re read all these post looking for it, as ive found this thread hard to keep up with anways, so for whatever its worthto prevant a pointless argument i retract that comment about this appartently unmentionable book (which i will refer to as UT) just to be safe anyways, even without where those sources come from, ive always believed that it was obvious what gandalf was doing when thorins co got together

[Haunt123]

Well, I personally admit that I lost the argument. Radhruin has convinced that if a Balrog managed to enter Minas Tirith using stealth and secrecy, he would be able to take Minas Tirith, albeit slowly.

If a Balrog entered Minas Tirith, as a plus point to him, Sauron would take the opportunity and attack Minas Tirith, and I bet Minas Tirith won't be able to face the Nine and the Balrog together. But this would also cause panic in ME, causing Rivendell and Lorien to possibly send aid. Good ol' Gandalf would also come.

But the Balrog alone vs. Minas Tirith would be victory for the Balrog, as Radhruin pointed out, though it may be under extraordinary circumstances. Thanks for taking part in that rather stretched out argument

[richsabre]

*eek!*

Don't mention Unfinished Tales! That argument has already taken place!

can you please direct me to this argument as i cannot find it and would like to know what the chocolate you are referring to
thanks

[Norliriel]

When has Gandalf said he "fears" the Witch King? O.o

If you mean when he says to Denethor, "He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared"

When I read that, I read it as " For one has come that I feared would be sent against Gondor"

This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:

---

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

---

So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!

[amien]

This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:

---

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

---

So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!

Thank you so much for posting this!

Someone mentioned the Gandalf snuck into DG? When was this? I know that Sauron used to live there as the "Necromancer" who corrupted Mirkwood. I thought the only great tower that Gandalf entered was Orthanc.

[Mulkfather]

Gandalf went in...I want to say twice. It's been a while since I read the appendices to LOTR...which I believe is where I read that. Anyway, it's clear that he went in sometime prior to "The Hobbit". That is where he found Thrain, Thorin's father, who gave Gandalf the map and key for the Lonely Mountain that Gandalf gives to Thorin in early parts of that book, and that happened some years prior to that adventure as there is some kind of lag in time from the visit to Dol Guldur and the unexpected party that is made clear from the conversation in the Hobbit where the map first appears.

[Haunt123]

This - Gandalf being personally afraid of the Witch King (as different from fearing what the Witch King might do to others) is a Movie thing; Book Gandalf is explicitly portrayed as UNafraid of the Witch King. Quoting from ROTK:

---

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax. Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go Back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'

---

So even Gandalf's horse isn't spooked by the Witch King!

Gandalf had nothing to fear from the Witch-King when it comes to 1v1 combat. Neither did the Witch-King fear Gandalf, though I'm not saying he was stronger.

But when it comes to leading an army, I think both of them have quite a lot to fear from each other.