Questions Over Lore

[amien]

Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?

[tuor66]

Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?

I don't think so other than that Elrond is a master of lore, very wise. In Tolkien's world there are many times when characters have a moment when they suddenly see something yet to come. You could call it the non-overt magic of the world or maybe even visions planted by Iluvatar, the hand of fate perhaps, part of the Great Music.

[bambubambubambu]

Is it ever explained in the books how why Elrons has foresight? Does Arwen have it also?

This is just conjecture on my part, and I don't know if there's any lore to back this up, but I always thought Elrond's gift of foresight was due on some level to his possession of the ring Vilya.

Of course, as tuor said he was master of lore and knowledge can often help lead to anticipating what might happen. He had been observing the nature of people and events for a long time too.

[Mithfindel]

I cannot really remember much LotRO-style 'magic' foretellings from Elrond from the books, where he is simply an over 6,000-year-old descendant of the High Elves. His father is essentially a god. (Well, Elf-hero guarding the morning star. Unless you accept Tuor to have part of Ulmo's power, then the actual god-blood comes from the mother's side.) Also, his early childhood was in the presence of a Silmaril, which means that some part of reason on what is natural to him can be abandoned right away. And later on, he was fostered by Maglor, of all the people. And then got a Ring of Power.

[Haunt123]

1. He is the son of the person who triggered the fall of Morgoth
2. He was the Herald of Gil-Galad, king of the High Elves
3. His was the only refuge for High Elves in Middle-Earth (Rivendell)
4. He has Vilya, the greatest of the Three Rings (I think)
5. He is more learned in lore than anyone, even Gandalf.
6. He is a very important member of the White Council.
7. He is the eldest of the Edain (though he is not a man himself), and was thus respected by all the Dunedain Kings.
8. He was the brother of the first King of Numenor.
9. He is descended from nearly ALL the houses of Elves and Men, and he is part Maiar too.
10. He, Cirdan, Gil Galad, Isildur and Elendil were the only ones who confronted Sauron

My post from some pages back, which illustrates the power of Elrond. By "he" I refer to Elrond, of course.

[Mithfindel]

My post from some pages back, which illustrates the power of Elrond. By "he" I refer to Elrond, of course.

#3 isn't entirely correct, though: Elrond's host escorted most of the survivors of Eregion into Rivendell, where they were besieged by a part of forces loyal to Sauron until Númenor took part in the war. Now, lots of the more in detail descriptions of the War of Elves and Sauron in the Second Age is apocryphal, but it is my understanding that some of the Elves of Eregion did flee the realm with the Galadhrim force Galadriel had sent to help Eregion (marching thru Moria), and ended up in Lórien. And then there is Lindon, which very likely had the highest number of Noldor alive, even if Eregion might have the highest ratio of Noldor to others. In any case, the majority of the inhabitants of any realms would be non-Noldor - I seem to remember a quote that in the First Age, about one fourth of the Elves in Beleriand were Noldor and the rest Sindar, but I'd need to find a source for that.

We do actually have a single direct mention of High Elven havens in Middle-earth at late Third Age:
"It is said that there are still havens of the High Elves, but they are far north and west, beyond the land of the Halflings. But where that may be, though the Lord and Lady may know, I do not."
- Haldir of Lórien

Now, Haldir isn't a reliable source (even by his own admission), but if he's right, then "beyond the land of the Halflings" essentially means that those havens are in Ered Luin or Lindon (possibly in the Emyn Beraid). It is, however, mentioned in the Appendices that Elrohir and Elrond did stay in Middle-earth with their High Elven relatives, so at least a few did stay in Rivendell, and elsewhere it is mentioned (in plural) that there were High Elves in Rivendell. So while the word only is not correct to describe Rivendell as a Noldorin refuge, perhaps the word chief might be more suitable. (Though causality here is broken - most likely it would be an important refuge because of Elrond.)

[Haunt123]

@Mithfindel

You are absolutely correct there. However, in my post, I didn't count the Grey Havens as a Haven for High Elves because the Elves went there to prepare for their journey West. So I just counted it as a port.

Rivendell would be the only Haven for High Elves where they go to "live", not just prepare for sailing out of Middle-Earth.

[Radhruin_EU]

And then there is Lindon, which very likely had the highest number of Noldor alive, even if Eregion might have the highest ratio of Noldor to others.

Rivendell seems to be more important to High Elves than anywhere else at that time: besides Elrond, Glorfindel is there, as well as 'Elvish smiths' with the skill to reforge the Sword of Kings.

Then there's what Gildor Inglorion has to say:

'We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.'

Rather than Lindon, which is interesting.

[Norliriel]

Regarding Elrond's foresight: Lúthien, her mother Melian, and Idril - all ancestresses of Elrond - were all gifted in that way, so Elrond's foresight was probably at least partly inherited.

As for Arwen possessing it as well - probably. She did foresee that Aragorn would have use for the banner she embroidered for him, for one.

[oldbadgerbrock]

Then there's what Gildor Inglorion has to say:

'We are Exiles, and most of our kindred have long ago departed and we too are now only tarrying here a while, ere we return over the Great Sea. But some of our kinsfolk dwell still in peace in Rivendell.'

Rather than Lindon, which is interesting.

Not as interesting when you consider the context. Gildor was himself a resident of Imladris, and therefore was speaking for himself and those close to him. We can surmise that he visited Bombadil, but we don't know whether and how often he visited Lindon. [Edit: Considering how closed off Lothlórien was to the rest of Middle-earth, it his highly unlikely that Gildor knew the status of the Galadhrim and the Noldor of that realm.] You will also note that Gildor did not say that the Exiles only live in Rivendell. He said "some", which infers that there may very well be others that live elsewhere, although obviously not as many as in the past as "most" have departed into the West.

Tolkien was using Gildor and his band as a device to convey to the reader that the time of the Elves was passing. By having Gildor refer to the Exiles, Tolkien was tieing into the history of Middle-earth that would eventually be published posthumously. (Tolkien had hoped to have The Silmarillion published at the same time as The Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, there wasn't much interest in the former at the time.) Tolkien often used this device to make his fiction appear to be a real history. You may recall the pretense of the material that appeared in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings was a translation from 'The Red Book of Westmarch', a history of events compiled by Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise.

[Radhruin_EU]

Not as interesting when you consider the context. Gildor was himself a resident of Imladris, and therefore was speaking for himself and those close to him.

It's interesting because he's not just anybody, he's a somebody: Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod. So there were nobles who preferred to live in Rivendell rather than Lindon. Why, if Lindon's supposed to be so wonderful? It strikes me that Rivendell was simply the most stimulating place to be. Lindon was probably a little melancholy, not only because of its faded grandeur but because that view out to sea could only remind everyone of the West and all those who had gone there.

You will also note that Gildor did not say that the Exiles only live in Rivendell. He said "some", which infers that there may very well be others that live elsewhere, although obviously not as many as in the past as "most" have departed into the West.

It allows the possibility, but it doesn't imply that as such. As I read it, it simply suggests that 'some' still lived peacefully in Rivendell whereas 'most' had already gone into the West, which doesn't have to leave any remainder at all apart from the obvious exception of Gildor and his companions (those who've felt the urge to leave, who can no longer be at peace in Middle-earth).

[oldbadgerbrock]

It strikes me that Rivendell was simply the most stimulating place to be. Lindon was probably a little melancholy, not only because of its faded grandeur but because that view out to sea could only remind everyone of the West and all those who had gone there.

That's very likely true. Bilbo said that the Last Homely House in Imladris

...was perfect, whether you liked food, or sleep, or work, or story-telling, or singing, or just sitting and thinking best, or a pleasant mixture of them all.

Of course the heart of a Hobbit is not the heart of an Elf. Still, I think everyone agreed that Imladris was a very special place.

It is true that Lindon was not preserved by a Ring of Power as were Imladris and Lothlórien, yet I imagine that it had its places that were still fair.

[Mithfindel]

Oh my, we might fill a few pages about discussing Inglor and the House of Finrod. When the LotR was written, Inglor was the same Elf as Felagund, and Finrod was Finarfin - when LotR was revised, most names were changed to match the other mythos, but these two were kept the same. (Admitted, changing them would've added a whole new amount of questions, as Finrod (Findoráto Ingoldo, not Arafinwë) was childless in Middle-earth (his spouse-to-be decided to stay in the West and wait for him). Though yes, most known/named (Half-)Elves with a connection to Noldor do live in Rivendell.

Edit: In addition to the Ring of Power, several places are mentioned to have some kind of power depending on the people who live there: In this case, an Elven realm would have a distinctly 'Elvish' air. Of course, in the late Third Age, this might be likened to the end of a summer or a long, warm autumn. (Can't find the quote, but one of the characters compared Rivendell into an eternal autumn if Lórien is an eternal spring.)

[Adanamir]

And one more note on Lindon - as Gildor himself says, many of his folk had went across the sea, which implies that Lindon wasn't as densely populated at the end of the Third Age as it used to be at the end of the Second one. Yet, we do have evidence that there were some settlements there, as Cirdan continued to rule over Mithlond (the Grey Havens). Now, there isn't anything mentioned about Lindon in particular, so it can be only speculated how many Elves were left there - probably not much, and what was left was probably mostly the Sindarin folk, ruled by Cirdan. Given that Gildor is a Noldo, it would be more logical that he would prefer to spend more time among his closer Elven kin, i.e. the Noldor, rather than among the Sindar, especially after there are very few Noldor left in the Middle-Earth.

Regarding Gildor's knowledge of Lothlorien, there can be some arguments why, even if he knew about it, he may not really care travel there. There were some good notes on Celeborn's origin earlier in this thread, but regardless if he is from the Sindar (those ruled by Thingol but never went to Aman) or the Teleri, he is certainly not a Noldo. In turn, this would imply that his folk are also most probably Sindar and some other Dark Elves (like Laiquendi, the Green Elves of Ossiriand, or the Nandor, also located in Northern Mirkwood under Thranduil's rule). Thus, Gildor would not have much reason to go to Lorien, given that most of his kinsmen and friends are in Imladris.

By the way, I will digress a little bit. As it is generally believed that Eregion's exiles were moved to Rivendell, it will be interesting to muse a little bit what exactly they were. Since Celembrimbor was of high prominence, being a grandson of Feanor himself, it could be easily surmised that many of his Noldor followers were actually of Feanor's sons' folk. This would also explain why Celembrimbor didn't heed much to the advice of Lindon at the time when he was forging the Great Rings - after all, these were the people ruled by the other branch of the Noldor royal family, the second and third son of Finwe (Feanor being the first). So, there could have been some residual animosity left, as even after there was no reason to fight among each other (the Silmarils were long gone), I'd guess that there was not much love between the people ruled by Feanor's sons and those who followed Fingolfin and Finrod.

All this more or less explains why the major settlements of the Elves wouldn't have much to deal with each other, unless to fight against a common enemy (Sauron) ...

[AllySanders]

By the way, I will digress a little bit. As it is generally believed that Eregion's exiles were moved to Rivendell, it will be interesting to muse a little bit what exactly they were. Since Celembrimbor was of high prominence, being a grandson of Feanor himself, it could be easily surmised that many of his Noldor followers were actually of Feanor's sons' folk. This would also explain why Celembrimbor didn't heed much to the advice of Lindon at the time when he was forging the Great Rings - after all, these were the people ruled by the other branch of the Noldor royal family, the second and third son of Finwe (Feanor being the first). So, there could have been some residual animosity left, as even after there was no reason to fight among each other (the Silmarils were long gone), I'd guess that there was not much love between the people ruled by Feanor's sons and those who followed Fingolfin and Finrod.

All this more or less explains why the major settlements of the Elves wouldn't have much to deal with each other, unless to fight against a common enemy (Sauron) ...

The only problem that I can see from that theory is the fact that Celebrimbor lived among Finrod's people, and actually broke relations with his father to stay in Nargothrond when Curufin and Celegorm were expelled from there by Finrod's nephew after their plots had been revealed. Celebrimbor chose to remain in Nargothrond, and to be allowed to do so, he must have had to been willing to accept Finrod's nephew as his lord, and as such could not have had animosities held toward the heirs of Fingolfin and Finarfin. So I don't think there would have been animosity held between Celebrimbor and those peoples.

Of course, that doesn't speak, necessarily, for those of Feanor's house, and it would make sense to say that after the War of Wrath, seeing as all the sons of Feanor were now gone, that the few who remained of those folk would naturally accept Celebrimbor as lord, being that he was the only heir of Feanor left on the other shores (as Maglor had disappeared) that Tolkien tells us about (as he mentioned in passing that other sons of Feanor were probably also married--Maglor being one of them, so it's possible they had un-named children along side those un-named wives, whether they remained in Valinor or followed their fathers).

I think there could have been a good deal of animosity still held between the survivors of the war of the folk of Feanor and the folk of Gil-galad and Cirdan. The sacking of the havens at Sirion was still very fresh in everyone's minds, Silmarils or no, and that would have been difficult to just forgive and forget. It might have been considered a good idea to just separate. On the other hand, Eregion wasn't settled until around SA 700; that's a long time to live amongst the other peoples in Lindon--plenty of time to finally put the old animosities to rest. And they had all fought together in the War of Wrath, so that too might have gone a long way to heal or at least begin healing disputes. Of course, it could be that they were naturally separated anyway, as Gil-galad ruled from Forlindon and Cirdan from Harlindon--perhaps in the Second Age they were already seperated. It will still seem, though, that all the remaining Noldor, no matter to which son of Finwe they belong, held Gil-galad as their king, including Celebrimbor and his people.

So I suppose the question that arises is what was the motivating factor for the settlement of Eregion in the first place? Being that it was so close to Moria and a ready supply of Mithril, and that the remaining Noldor were naturally craftsmen and smiths, it could simply be they settled there because they wanted to be nearer to their supply, and had nothing to do with animosities at all.

Also, there are several different versions of the founding of Eregion floating around, thanks to Tolkien. One story states that Celebrimbor settled it and that Galadriel and Celeborn chose to live there with him, another says they three co-ruled the place until Sauron came along and the forging of the power rings began, while another says that Galadriel and Celeborn settled it and that Celebrimbor went with them and usurped power after the forging of the power rings began.

In any case, Galadriel and Celeborn and their folk lived in Eregion, and as Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin and the sister of Finrod and certainly had no love at all for Feanor, I would think that there couldn't have still been animosities floating amongst her folk and the remains of Feanor's people, else they would not have chosen to live together in Eregion.

But that's just my two sense Is there any more information out there on the founding of Eregion and the reasons for it?

[Adanamir]

You do give some very valid points, but I still believe there is room to allow for my theory. Just to point out, that the Exiles didn't actually fight in the War of Wrath, at least according to the Silmarillion. It was explicitly pointed out that only hosts from Valinor and Men fought in the last battle against Morgoth, while the exiled elves were sidelined.

Anyways, my point is that at the beginning, Celembrimbor wasn't really an elf of very high status. Indeed, he was the son of Curufin and grandson of Feanor, but his prominence as a crafter came mostly after he settled in Eregion (though he was probably respected among Elves much before then). And as it often happens, with great skill often comes hubris. Thus, even if Celembrimbor was far more willing to heed to advice from the House of Finarfin at the beginning, it is not impossible that he believed he was powerful enough to do what he thinks is right a thousand years later. By the way, "animosity" is probably a stronger word than I intended, it's much more as if Celembrimbor wasn't willing to follow blindly unreasonable (in his view) concerns of some distant Elf lords.

Regarding Galadriel and her stay in Eregion - yes, there are different versions, thanks to the Professor, but one of them is also that Galadriel and Celembrimbor (who ruled over the land) were close friends, not impossible as Galadriel never had a position of power in the First Age. Anyways, the thing is that this remains only a theory, and any explanation is possible. After all, it remains unclear how many of Feanor's people remained in Middle-Earth, especially when they were given forgiveness to return to Valinor at the end of the First Age. The simplest explanation is indeed that Celembrimbor's desire for knowledge made him ignore the warnings from Lindon, and his heritage had nothing to do with it.

[Radhruin_EU]

The simplest explanation is indeed that Celembrimbor's desire for knowledge made him ignore the warnings from Lindon, and his heritage had nothing to do with it.

That's the one I go with. While he had his suspicions, Gil-galad didn't go so far as to command that the Noldor should shun Annatar and so it wasn't as if Celebrimbor and the other Gwaith-i-Mirdain were defying their High King's will. Celebrimbor simply didn't heed the warnings because he'd been seduced by all the wondrous possibilities that Ring-lore offered. The physical distance between Eregion and Lindon would have helped, there, and the strong creative spirit in Eregion made it fertile ground for anything so new and interesting.

[gradivus]

Didn't Gandalf win? I always assumed that, if on an equal field (ie not plummeting to ones doom), Gandalf would have wiped the floor with the balrog.

Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria were both Maia and were of comparable strength. Gandalf did win, most definitely, but he was almost totally spent and lay near death for a while (and apparently had a near-death experience), but he did survive.

Balrogs were of varying strength. The Great Balrog of Moria was perhaps the oldest and most powerful.

[Radhruin_EU]

Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria were both Maia and were of comparable strength. Gandalf did win, most definitely, but he was almost totally spent and lay near death for a while (and apparently had a near-death experience), but he did survive.

No, Tolkien confirmed that Gandalf did actually 'die', and was then sent back.

[BuddahsPalm]

RE: Noldor and Lindon vs. Imladris

I only wanted to add that I have the impression that the western sea itself was a powerful pull on the Elves, and especially the Noldor. And as such, any Noldor that wanted to stay behind and live in/defend/enjoy Middle Earth might have found it impossible to do so in close proximity to the sea.

I can truly imagine Cirdan only remains out of the powerful sense of duty (Ensuring the safety of the port / 'last one out' sort of thing)

So then if you (a Noldor Elf) literally cannot bear to live near the sea (Lindon) without crossing over into the Undying Lands, your optimal residence would be Imladris (by default, although 'default' is a really unfair characterization )

No clear answer, but lends support as to why there MIGHT be more Noldo in Imladris vs. Lindon (though all this is conjecture IMO)

[Haunt123]

@Buddahspalm

That's what I'd suspect as well. Legolas just looked at the Sea and wanted to leave Middle-Earth.

[Adanamir]

However, Legolas was from the Sindar, or at least had strong Sindarin ancestry (given that there is no info on his mother), so the call to the West should apply to Cirdan's folk as well. I'd rather say that the difference was in the fact that Cirdan's people were predominantly born and raised at the seaside, so it wasn't such a big shock to them, compared to elves that had never seen the sea before.

I have a slightly different explanation for the disparity in population between Lindon and Imladris. After all, Imladris had always had a specific purpose, being settled as a safe heaven during the fight against Sauron towards the end of the Second Age. Thus, it was quite natural that it gathered quite a few prominent elves, and mostly Noldor, who had always had a more active role in fighting Morgoth and later Sauron. In the Third Age, this goal was preserved, given that Elrond very well knew that Sauron was not destroyed permanently, as long as the One Ring remained intact. Imladris took part in saving the remnants of Arnor after the war against Angmar ended (TA 1975), and provided safe haven to the Dunedain ever since.

This sense of purpose most probably helped to keep more Noldor there than in Lindon, where High King Gil-Galad was dead, along with many others who fell at Dagorlad and later during the siege of Barad-Dur. Thus, due to grief or no purpose of staying in Middle Earth, many Noldor left Lindon for the sea, and so Lindon may have been quite sparsely populated at the end of the Third Age.

[Radhruin_EU]

In the Third Age, this goal was preserved, given that Elrond very well knew that Sauron was not destroyed permanently, as long as the One Ring remained intact.

Nobody actually knew that for a fact, although it became an obvious inference once Sauron was known to have returned in the Third Age.

Imladris took part in saving the remnants of Arnor after the war against Angmar ended (TA 1975), and provided safe haven to the Dunedain ever since.

Only in passing; the Northern Dunedain didn't actually live there, they had a 'fastness' of their own somewhere else. Aragorn and his mother had been very much an exception.

Thus, due to grief or no purpose of staying in Middle Earth, many Noldor left Lindon for the sea, and so Lindon may have been quite sparsely populated at the end of the Third Age.

Most of Lindon had apparently been abandoned, and allowed to go back to nature - the remaining population had become concentrated along the coast near the Havens. It'd make for some very scenic ruins, which for once wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) be full of nasties

[oldbadgerbrock]

Most of Lindon had apparently been abandoned, and allowed to go back to nature - the remaining population had become concentrated along the coast near the Havens. It'd make for some very scenic ruins, which for once wouldn't (or rather, shouldn't) be full of nasties

Much of Lindon had never left its natural state. In typical real-life places you have a concentration of the population in towns and cities--this was especially true before mass transportation--with wilderness in the surrounding areas. I imagine that Elven settlements were not too different than human settlements in this regard. I can't ever recall reading anything about Elven farms or homesteads, and don't know whether they existed or not. The Sindar were great sailors, so we can guess that they may have derived at least some of their food from the sea through fishing.

Since Lindon did not play an important role in the events of TA 3018-3019, other than being a point of embarkment for the Undying Lands at the end of LOTR, Tolkien didn't leave us with much information about for this time period. Most of we may say about it is speculation, and, in my opinion, should be stated as such rather than stated dogmatically.

In LOTR Tolkien was very clear that the time of the Elves was soon coming to the end. We also know that most of the Elves who had not been slain during the many wars throughout the millenia had already left Middle-earth, and others, like Gildor and his company, were merely biding their time before they, too, would leave. However, we also know that some Elves were determined to stay in Middle-earth until they faded.

Those who are interested in this topic may wish to read 'Why did the Elves Leave Middle-earth' by noted Tolkien scholar, Michael Martinez.

[Radhruin_EU]

Much of Lindon had never left its natural state. In typical real-life places you have a concentration of the population in towns and cities--this was especially true before mass transportation--with wilderness in the surrounding areas.

Hang on, a couple of things there. First off, in any pre-industrial society the overwhelming majority of people live on the land, not in towns and cities. Secondly, there's a big difference between areas that have hardly anyone living there and true wilderness; even a few people can start to make a difference. When there were a lot of Elves there Lindon wouldn't have been in its natural state at all, no country that's got people living there ever is if it's anything more than just a handful and that's allowing for the idea of Elves being better at living in harmony with nature; they'd still have to extract resources from the land, grow crops, keep animals (if they wanted wool to weave, for instance), manage the woodlands (they'd need a steady supply of both wood and charcoal, for example), quarry for stone and metal ores, dig for clay so they could make pottery, all that long list of things you need to do in order to be both well fed and have a sophisticated material culture. My point was that most of the place had chance to go back to something like a natural state since it had been largely abandoned for a few thousand years.