Fire Burst Damage-A Proposed Solution

[Therubor]

First off, I'd like to say that this is not a rage thread about Fire getting nerfed, which, as far as I can deduce from Bullroarer players, isn't actually happening.

Second, I'd like to say that I am a noob, and all of my ideas are based on the going-ons of my level 53 RK. Due to the lack of hard, definite numbers, I can't factor in the confirmed U6 damage changes. :\ However, I have considered mechanics changes such as Master of Connotation.

Righto, lets get to the meat.

As we all know, Fire has been somewhat lacking on the burst front. We also all know of the fact that there are those who'd like it to stay as such, despite the fact that Hunters can do both and Champs can as well and the fact that CAN'T YOU SEE THAT WE'LL BE OUTDONE BY CAPPYS YOU-

Sorry about that. Anyway, my proposal is:
1. Reduce Smouldering Wrath's channeling time to 5 seconds. (From the U6 change)
2. Have each (stackable) Master of Connotation buff reduce SW's channeling time by 1 second, and also make it give back 3% of max morale. (Stacks up to 5 times.) The buff could be wiped by using WoC or, possibly, Improved Sustaining Bolt.

So, from my napkin math on a level 53 RK using a neutral leg wep with 6 Fire traits, a hit with SW at 5 Master of Connotation would do 1984 damage, which is roughly the same as, for me, a T3 Essence of Flame devastating hit. This seems somewhat overpowered, which leads to part three.

3. Each Master of Connotation buff reduces SW damage by 3% and increases power cost by the same amount.

By adding this, SW becomes more situational. Rather than mashing it every time it comes on, we would have to save the instant version for times that require burst, and use the normal one

However, an incentive for using WoC would be needed to make wiping the buff possible. ( iSB could be used when low on power.) So, as I said in a later post's edit, it needs some beefing up.

4. WoC reduces Tactical Mitigation by 5% per tier. Target range reduced to 1. Damage increased.
5. The Frost-burn trait makes WoC 3-target AoE. Also adds a Physical and Ranged Mitigaton reduction with a value equal to the normal debuff.

So, that's it. Questions, comments, criticisms, suggestions, etc., please.

[Zombie_Columbus]

A very interesting idea. I don't want to have traits reference each other though, prefer something like "Scathing Retort - Added functionality. Calming Verse now reduces the channel time of Smouldering Wrath by 75%, and increases it's damage by 50%." There, burst if you want it.

However, I think the 6sec duration Smouldering Wrath that will be shipping will feel plenty bursty. IEoF into EF into Smouldering Wrath will be quite a bit of damage fast. I'm also all-right with the fire line having less burst, that is the preview of lightning. Fire has it's own advantages.

Great post!

[Therubor]

Wow. That was fast.

But I think that DPSers also need some sort of instant OH #### button that won't intrude on our normal sustained rotation, while still managing to be effective in spots where it's needed.

Also, I'm pretty sure Lightning has a mild ability to go sustained, while still retaining its wonderfully wonderful burstitude. (Not quite sure that's a word.)

Ah, and points 2 and 3 were meant to reflect the same trait, it just didn't flow quite as well when they were put together.

Anyhoo, thanks quite a bit for the post.

Edit: I do need to think up a better way to wipe the buff than WoC, though.

Edit to the First Edit: Alternatively, and also completely separately from this idea, you could have WoC reduce tactical mitigation by a very noticable amount, and have some sort of Essay of Frost to make this easier to add to the rotation.

[Zombie_Columbus]

Also, I'm pretty sure Lightning has a mild ability to go sustained, while still retaining its wonderfully wonderful burstitude. (Not quite sure that's a word.)

While power efficiency of healing is being reduced, lightning is gaining a few number of benefits in that area. EC loses it's -50% power penalty. CV can be used right before EC for even more savings. Self-Motivation changing to a % of max power will benefit the two traitlines that don't get ranks in Healing greatly. If lightning is not preforming up to snuff, I'm considering changing Sustaining Bolt to a % of max power as well.

[Warth]

Thought I'd offer another potential solution to the fire burstiness: what if IEoF offered insta-cast fire skills for less than 5s? Like 2-3s. Having only the next fire skill be insta-cast feels a bit rough on the nerf-end, especially so soon after fire became viable. I understand your desire to have fire and lightning be very separate as far as how they do damage ZC, but I'd be fine with having only the next 2 or 3 fire skills be instant. Just one seems kinda meh on paper, though I admittedly haven't spent much time with the fire changes on BR.

[Nathandir]

Wow. That was fast.

But I think that DPSers also need some sort of instant OH #### button that won't intrude on our normal sustained rotation, while still managing to be effective in spots where it's needed.

Also, I'm pretty sure Lightning has a mild ability to go sustained, while still retaining its wonderfully wonderful burstitude. (Not quite sure that's a word.)

Ah, and points 2 and 3 were meant to reflect the same trait, it just didn't flow quite as well when they were put together.

Anyhoo, thanks quite a bit for the post.

Edit: I do need to think up a better way to wipe the buff than WoC, though.

Edit to the First Edit: Alternatively, and also completely separately from this idea, you could have WoC reduce tactical migitation by a very noticable amount, and have some sort of Essay of Frost to make this easier to add to the rotation.

I'm more of a noob than you, but I've played RK longer and understand alot of things more than you.
RK has probably the most versatile dps in the game.

FIRE does the most damage over a period of time, and should be used in fellowships to generate minimum threat and have a tank to prevent you getting attacked.

ICE damage is similar to that of the Lore-Master, its a debuff/dmg.

LIGHTNING is our burst/mobile damage, able to deliver alot of damage quickly over a short period of time, while still allowing the RK to remain mobile. This is probably the most useful for soloing.

Again, lightning is our burst, and fire is the over-time fellowship dps. We don't need to make fire burst.

[Ryssadis]

While power efficiency of healing is being reduced, lightning is gaining a few number of benefits in that area. EC loses it's -50% power penalty. CV can be used right before EC for even more savings. Self-Motivation changing to a % of max power will benefit the two traitlines that don't get ranks in Healing greatly. If lightning is not preforming up to snuff, I'm considering changing Sustaining Bolt to a % of max power as well.

Question: I haven't gone back on BR to look at this, but has something changed with the neutral attunement on CV and the DPS attunement requirement of 9 on EC? Because if they have the same values as their existing state, you literally cannot use CV then EC. You won't have enough attunement. Unless you are meaning: CV, zap zap to t9 again, then EC while CV is still ticking?

[PerfectApproach]

I'm more of a noob than you, but I've played RK longer and understand alot of things more than you.
RK has probably the most versatile dps in the game.

FIRE does the most damage over a period of time, and should be used in fellowships to generate minimum threat and have a tank to prevent you getting attacked.

ICE damage is similar to that of the Lore-Master, its a debuff/dmg.

LIGHTNING is our burst/mobile damage, able to deliver alot of damage quickly over a short period of time, while still allowing the RK to remain mobile. This is probably the most useful for soloing.

Again, lightning is our burst, and fire is the over-time fellowship dps. We don't need to make fire burst.

I'm gonna echo this sentiment. "Fire Burst Damage" is an oxymoron. Fire should not give burst damage. It should provide steady-stream damage over time. I can understand that sometimes, while fire-traited and while streaming out fire damage, a burst might be necessary. Essence of Flame, Epic Conclusion, and Shocking Words STILL provide that.

It seems like people think that because they're fire-traited, the lightning skills (you know, the ones that were intended to be used for burst damage) suddenly cease to be effective. It seems like people think that because they're fire-traited, the RK is completely burst-less unless there's something they can spam into oblivion. This couldn't be further from the truth.

Please, people who want burst DPS, use IEoF/Essence/EC/Shocking Words. You may be surprised. If that's not enough, trait Fury of Storm. If THAT'S not enough, let a hunter do the burst damage. If even THAT'S not enough, roll a hunter. Please, Zombie, don't put anymore burst DPS into Wrath of Flame.

I remember a time when Fire DPS was all about applying DoT's and making sure they stay ticking, and when Lightning DPS was about setting up for big one-shot crits. Now more than ever, Fire DPS is becoming less about maintaining DoT's and more about using insta-skills that do a ton of all-at-once damage. Fury of Storm is more power-efficient than ever, and the big crits have been rarified into oblivion. Gone are the "Biggest EC Crit" posts on the forums. Why? Because Fury of Storm isn't about big hits anymore, it's about sustained Lightning DPS.

"Sustained Lightning DPS" and "Burst Fire DPS" are the complete opposite of what Wrath of Flame and Fury of Storm were originally envisioned to be. Please, for the love of all that is holy and righteous in Middle-Earth, please don't blur the lines between these 2 skill lines so far that one is indistinguishable from another. It defeats the purpose of having 2 separate trait-lines.

[nikosi]

Î would love to use fire trait line in orthanc T2 raid..but at Acid and Fear Bossfight you have lots of Crowd control and you need to make burst damage very fast on the add groups. If you stay on Kalbak, its fine if the aoe of fire ridicule and wrath of flame is small enough not to hit the stunned defilers. In Acid wing you need very high and controllabe dps on the troll/avancs/dragons wich makes fire useless without burst damage. On bosses themselves fire would be much more efficient!

[PerfectApproach]

Let me just take this apart piece by piece. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying that you can accomplish what you need to do without adding any extra burst to Fire whatsovever.

Î would love to use fire trait line in orthanc T2 raid...

Me too.

...but at Acid and Fear Bossfight you have lots of Crowd control and you need to make burst damage very fast on the add groups.

So trait Fury of Storm. On the Acid boss, you can only DPS on the boss for about a minute at a time anyway. DoTs are wasted. On the Fear boss, the entire fight is a DPS race. The whole idea is to kill him as fast as you can. Fury of Storm can accomplish that. (Yes, it is power efficient enough!) If you absolutely must trait fire, you can still use Essence of Flame/Epic Conclusion/Shocking Words on the adds.

If you stay on Kalbak, its fine if the aoe of fire ridicule and wrath of flame is small enough not to hit the stunned defilers.

In this case, the problem is not the RK, or the skills used. The problem is location. Move Kalbak. Not good enough? Writ of Fire, Fiery Ridicule, Mystifying Flame, and Smouldering Wrath are all single-target DoT's. Just unslot Conflagration of Runes. There are plenty of other traits that are just as effective.

In Acid wing you need very high and controllabe dps on the troll/avancs/dragons wich makes fire useless without burst damage.

Exactly! So trait Lightning! Lightning DPS is really high. Not sure why it would need to be controllable, other than aggro issues. If that's the case, then the tank isn't doing something right. Still not good enough? Fire skills have pretty good AOE, and it is getting better with U6. Isn't AOE a good thing when you have multiple mobs? Oh, still not good enough? Lemme check...yep, you can still use EC and Shocking Words for big hits on big mobs, and if you DON'T want AOE for some strange reason, you can still unslot Conflagration of Runes for Fiery Ridicule.

On bosses themselves fire would be much more efficient!

Not really. Lightning is more efficient than its ever been. To a point where Fire really isn't much more efficient. And with Update 6, power changes to EC are going to make it even easier to maintain very good lightning DPS for a long period of time. You'll use more power pots than a fire build, but not many. And you probably won't be screaming for a LM.

If Wrath of Flame gets more burst DPS, I'd like to see some DoT's in the Fury of Storm line.

[Phoss]

Not really. Lightning is more efficient than its ever been. To a point where Fire really isn't much more efficient. And with Update 6, power changes to EC are going to make it even easier to maintain very good lightning DPS for a long period of time. You'll use more power pots than a fire build, but not many. And you probably won't be screaming for a LM.[/CENTER]

So, trait lightning for ToO, Draig, small group instances, solo, and use fire for... what? Ok.

Without burst, fire becomes obsolete to either lightning spec or other classes who kill enemies faster. What is the compensation for lower burst dps? Power efficiency? Don't care. Threat management? Maybe useful. Area affects dps? Champs and LMs do it better.

I bring a dps RK to a group/raid instead of that burglar/champion/hunter because: - (insert reason) ?

[Therubor]

Please keep it on topic, peeps.

While power efficiency of healing is being reduced, lightning is gaining a few number of benefits in that area. EC loses it's -50% power penalty. CV can be used right before EC for even more savings. Self-Motivation changing to a % of max power will benefit the two traitlines that don't get ranks in Healing greatly. If lightning is not preforming up to snuff, I'm considering changing Sustaining Bolt to a % of max power as well.

So...yeah. If Lightning gets a buff in sustained DPS, then Fire needs just a smidge more burst that's added in such a way that it'd be detrimental to use it without a really, really good reason.

If Wrath of Flame gets more burst DPS, I'd like to see some DoT's in the Fury of Storm line.

We're at the point where SS and CA are kinda sorta DoTs when spammed.

Thought I'd offer another potential solution to the fire burstiness: what if IEoF offered insta-cast fire skills for less than 5s? Like 2-3s. Having only the next fire skill be insta-cast feels a bit rough on the nerf-end, especially so soon after fire became viable. I understand your desire to have fire and lightning be very separate as far as how they do damage ZC, but I'd be fine with having only the next 2 or 3 fire skills be instant. Just one seems kinda meh on paper, though I admittedly haven't spent much time with the fire changes on BR.

Thank you for offering a suggestion instead of just saying something about DoTs over multiple threads. This'd work, but the thing is that the burst implemented has to be a bad choice when used on bosses. This...not so much. But thank you for the constructive criticism.

So, trait lightning for ToO, Draig, small group instances, solo, and use fire for... what? Ok.

Without burst, fire becomes obsolete to either lightning spec or other classes who kill enemies faster. What is the compensation for lower burst dps? Power efficiency? Don't care. Threat management? Maybe useful. Area affects dps? Champs and LMs do it better.

I bring a dps RK to a group/raid instead of that burglar/champion/hunter because: - (insert reason) ?

Please read the first post. This isn't a rage thread.

Thanks all for your (mostly) kind criticisms and suggestion. Once again, if you need a rage thread, start one yourself.

[PerfectApproach]

So, trait lightning for ToO, Draig, small group instances, solo, and use fire for... what? Ok.

I bring a dps RK to a group/raid instead of that burglar/champion/hunter because: - (insert reason) ?

Good questions, both. The problem isn't that Fire needs burst. The problem is that steady Fire dps isn't high enough. Zombie Columbus's solution was to make Fire more like lightning, and give it some burst. That's why Mystifying Flame is now instant, Essence of Flame is now a one-shot, and Smouldering Wrath channels for 2 seconds less time than it used to.

I have said many times that making Fire work like Lightning wasn't the correct way to "fix" the problem of "why bother with fire." This problem has existed since the RK was created. Now, dps RK's are a hodge-podge of skills with no unifying themes. Making Fire more bursty only contributes to the hodge-podge-ness.

Here's the solution:

1) Bring back all the inductions, except for Fiery Rid. Make Fiery Rid usable on the move, with a tiny DoT, and NO initial damage. Stackable to 5. No longer AOE (Leave it on Essence). 1s cooldown. Effectively, a PtH-style DoT instead of a HoT.
B) Make Essence of Flame a DoT again, instead of "Epic Conclusion with an induction." AOE is still nice though.
4) Raise Fire DPS above all other DPS in the game. Not by much, but just enough to be consistent. Why?

• Requirement to stand still.
• Inductions can be set back.
• Paper-thin armor.

Hunters whining? Remind them that they wear medium armor, have much higher evade/parry, can root targets for a much longer time, and have the longest range in the game. Champs whining? Remind them that they wear heavy armor, they can CBR to avoid stuns/roots/dazes/snares, and they have about 5k morale more than a RK. Creeps always whine, ignore them. Remind them all that no, despite what they claim on the forums, RK's cannot heal themselves when DPS'ing.

[Chris91]

Hunters whining? Remind them that they wear medium armor, have much higher evade/parry, can root targets for a much longer time, and have the longest range in the game. Champs whining? Remind them that they wear heavy armor, they can CBR to avoid stuns/roots/dazes/snares, and they have about 5k morale more than a RK. Creeps always whine, ignore them. Remind them all that no, despite what they claim on the forums, RK's cannot heal themselves when DPS'ing.

Neither Hunters nor Champs have more morale than we do on BR, we reach 7k even without focusing on Morale at all

We can heal ourselves while DPSing (WoH and Prelude), that´s often enough to outheal the pityful DPS of a Creep, who hits you once every 3-5 seconds due to kiting

[PerfectApproach]

...kiting

Not while using fire skills, which is what this whole thread is about.

And as to healing, PtH is almost pitiful. Case in point: We can still use PtH on Live while DPS'ing. I don't see anyone miraculously surviving anything because of it. Even with the PtH heal, we're REALLY squishy. PtH doesn't even come anywhere near making up for medium/heavy armor, avoidances, mitigations, crit resistance, and stun-resistances. Basically, the #1 thing that RK's are complaining about on live is survivability (yes, there are statistics that are NOT fabricated). And we have PtH. 'Nuff said, I think.

And in my universe, I'd take away the "use any writ anytime you want" too. I'd gladly suffer a healing nerf WHILE DPS'ING if Fire DPS were the highest in the game. Even with all the inductions put back.

[Theophilos]

I think that as RKs, it's easy to get into the mindset that each trait-line is entirely independent. This is understandable due to the attunement system - healing and dealing damage are all but mutually exclusive by design.

However, I just want to remind you that fire and lightning are by no means mutually exclusive. Damage attunement is damage attunement. Obviously, there are significant buffs to one or the other type of damage through traiting, but that doesn't mean that the other type is completely inaccessible or useless by any means. If you're at 9 damage attunement and want that burst damage, throw out an EC. It's not going to crit for 10k+ (without one of Saruman's rings at least :P) but that's some significant burst damage while fire traited. Or hit 'em with an Essence of Storm; at 9 attunement, and even with a conservative 15% base crit chance, you'll crit 78% of the time for 100% of base damage. Hard to complain about that.

So don't be afraid to use your lightning skills while fire-traited.

Now real quick, to the issue of the trait-lines' nature:

Hypothetically, if you stick your hand in a fire for a split second and pull it back, there's no real harm done, right? Wayyyyy more hypothetically, if you stick your hand in a lightning bolt for a split second, you're going to be making an appointment with a prosthetist. Stick your hand in a fire for 10 seconds, and you accomplish pretty much the same thing. As much as I've loved IEoF for the past few months (talk about NUKING!), it makes sense to me to keep lightning damage burst-y and keep fire damage burn-y. That is, until some RK scholar finally works out that whole nuclear fission thing...

[Therubor]

Good questions, both. The problem isn't that Fire needs burst. The problem is that steady Fire dps isn't high enough. Zombie Columbus's solution was to make Fire more like lightning, and give it some burst. That's why Mystifying Flame is now instant, Essence of Flame is now a one-shot, and Smouldering Wrath channels for 2 seconds less time than it used to.

I have said many times that making Fire work like Lightning wasn't the correct way to "fix" the problem of "why bother with fire." This problem has existed since the RK was created. Now, dps RK's are a hodge-podge of skills with no unifying themes. Making Fire more bursty only contributes to the hodge-podge-ness.

Here's the solution:

1) Bring back all the inductions, except for Fiery Rid. Make Fiery Rid usable on the move, with a tiny DoT, and NO initial damage. Stackable to 5. No longer AOE (Leave it on Essence). 1s cooldown. Effectively, a PtH-style DoT instead of a HoT.
B) Make Essence of Flame a DoT again, instead of "Epic Conclusion with an induction." AOE is still nice though.
4) Raise Fire DPS above all other DPS in the game. Not by much, but just enough to be consistent. Why?

• Requirement to stand still.
• Inductions can be set back.
• Paper-thin armor.

Hunters whining? Remind them that they wear medium armor, have much higher evade/parry, can root targets for a much longer time, and have the longest range in the game. Champs whining? Remind them that they wear heavy armor, they can CBR to avoid stuns/roots/dazes/snares, and they have about 5k morale more than a RK. Creeps always whine, ignore them. Remind them all that no, despite what they claim on the forums, RK's cannot heal themselves when DPS'ing.

Erm, reworking FR like that would absolutely kill Fire RKs. You seem to be rather stuck on the near-complete elimination of direct damage for the Fire line. Additionally, I'm pretty sure Hunters can do both burst and sustained damage to an extent in the same traitline. Of course, I've never rolled a Hunter, but it'd seem that way. Same for Champs, I think. Raising our steady damage to the point that we constantly put out what other classes only do in short times would be way too overpowered.

All I'm asking for is a mechanic that discourages using burst damage in spots where it's unecessary, while at the same time allowing Fire RKs to use a skill that's already improved by their leg wep in tough spots. It'd be nowhere near the levels of Lightning's consistent critting, but still valuable. No need for nastiness. You haven't really adressed my point about CA being somewhat like a channeled DoT, either.

Hypothetically, if you stick your hand in a fire for a split second and pull it back, there's no real harm done, right? Wayyyyy more hypothetically, if you stick your hand in a lightning bolt for a split second, you're going to be making an appointment with a prosthetist. Stick your hand in a fire for 10 seconds, and you accomplish pretty much the same thing. As much as I've loved IEoF for the past few months (talk about NUKING!), it makes sense to me to keep lightning damage burst-y and keep fire damage burn-y. That is, until some RK scholar finally works out that whole nuclear fission thing...

Thank you for keeping it civil. But not all explosions need nuclear fission, you know...

[Jarusador]

I've been toying around with my undergeared RK on Bullroarer and I have come away with this conclusion. Smouldering Wrath is the skill that fire mages want to use for their burst damage. So, how do we get to it quickly?

Having the legacy that maxs out Distracting Flame cooldown along with the legendary trait Mystifying flame gives us a new lower powered Bird flap. Basically you start your chain with IEoF, then FR, then a fast lighting spell to attune distracting flame. Once distracting flame hits, then you spam it to gain attunement to Smouldering Wrath (which deals good damage when traited). Use Smouldering Wrath and you generally have a dead mob. I am not saying that this chain is great, or solves many issues for people, but try it out. By spamming distracting flame, it can get you to 9 attunement in a sec or two which is the fastest way to gain damage attunement. I am currently traiting 6 Fire and 1 Lightning (I have Closing remarks traited to use Epic Conclusion more frequently.) using this chain, and I am mowing down mobs right and left.

I am not saying that this tactic is going to please everyone, but try it out. I feel it is quite effective and although it doesn't deal as much damage as our current IEoF, it may be the best we can hope for fire burst damage.

Just my two cents.

[Forgotten_Legend]

Hunters whining? Remind them that they wear medium armor, have much higher evade/parry, can root targets for a much longer time, and have the longest range in the game. Champs whining? Remind them that they wear heavy armor, they can CBR to avoid stuns/roots/dazes/snares, and they have about 5k morale more than a RK. Creeps always whine, ignore them. Remind them all that no, despite what they claim on the forums, RK's cannot heal themselves when DPS'ing.

and i'll remind you that RKs can switch to healing attune in the middle of a fight, so to be fair, to give fire RKs the best DPS over hunters (who happen to have to trait legendary trait to get root, and the only utility for the group is poison removal), all RK heals and neutral attunement skills must be deactivated when fire capstone is traited., period, regardless of attunement. yes, that would include calming verse and self-motivate, and affinty skills. and that would defeat the purpose of making RK the way RK was made.

why am i fine with champs and RKs having a slightly lower place on the DPS ladder than hunters? becasue hunters only do one thing, no matter how they are traited: DPS. their CC is laughable compared to LMs or Burgs, especially considering that when LMs and Burgs are traited for CC, they ALSO provide group uility (like mob debuffs, fellowship buffs, battery, CJs) while hunters can only DPS. and the devs have already stated that hunters will never gain the utility that burgs, LMs or cappys have, so hunters will only ever always be able to DPS. and as such, should always remain the top damage dealer.

and yes, i know i subbed the term "DPS" for "damage dealer"

and yes, i DO play a fire RK. level 75. in everything except tower of orthanc alt runs, where the kin needs my RK to heal instead :/ come to think of it, i end up healing on the RK more than DPSing. ugh

[PerfectApproach]

Erm, reworking FR like that would absolutely kill Fire RKs.

Doesn't have to. If you allow FR to stack 3 - 5 times on 3 targets, it would put out some decent dps. Besides, a 0 attunement skill really shouldn't do much DPS by itself. Traits should boost it, but for something that I envision as a spammable DoT, I wouldn't really want it to be very powerful. I'd rather shift the massive proportion of DPS that FR currently does over to other skills that require more attunement. Just as Prelude to Hope is a pathetically weak HoT, it is usable on the move and has 0 attunement. It's not the linch-pin of my healing rotation, but when I put it on everyone in my group, and I combine it with other stuff, it's passable. I imagine FR being the same. Definitely not something to depend on, but can be used while running for your life, and does ok when placed on multiple targets. If any overall DPS was lost from this change, it could be shifted to, say, Mystifying Flame, or Essence of Flame, or Smouldering Wrath, or oooh even Scathing Mockery! Of course, my hypothetical FR's pathetic DPS could be boosted with traits/trait-bonuses and armor bonuses too.

You seem to be rather stuck on the near-complete elimination of direct damage for the Fire line.

Yup. I sure am. Although I don't like the fact that DoT's don't trigger "on fire damage" effects. Lightning skills do direct damage, and very well. Let them do what they do best, and let Fire work differently.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure Hunters can do both burst and sustained damage to an extent in the same traitline. Of course, I've never rolled a Hunter, but it'd seem that way. Same for Champs, I think.

Yes, I believe they can. But RK's are not Hunters, nor are they Champs. I wouldn't want them to be anything like Hunters or Champs.

1) Hunters and Champs don't have the luxury of being able to trait separately for sustained damage vs. burst to the same magnitude RK's do. Being able to arbitrarily switch between burst/sustained damage on the fly is nice, but it comes with a price. RK's can trait specifically for those different roles, and there are benefits to doing so. Power efficiency comes to mind, as well as being able to also fill the role of Healer if necessary. We could argue ad infinitum about the pros/cons of being Hunters/Champs vs. RK's, but the simple truth is that Hunters/Champs can do both at the same time, at the cost of something else... something else that RK's can do that Hunters/Champs CAN'T do.
2) I've stated before, RK's CAN BURST WHILE FIRE TRAITED. Essence of Flame, Epic Conclusion, Shocking Words, and (as someone else mentioned) Essence of Storm are all very good at this, even when fire-traited.
3) Nobody is preventing an RK from hybrid-traiting for Cleansing Fires AND Solitary Thunder.

Raising our steady damage to the point that we constantly put out what other classes only do in short times would be way too overpowered.

Not if we have to stand still, risk an interrupted induction, wait until the target is within 30m, and wear paper-thin armor. I think these 4 factors are EXACTLY why we should be able to DPS higher (when fire-traited) than any other class. I'm all for Lightning skills performing on par with Champs and Hunters both in DPS and in big crits. But Fire is different. It's very risky to stand still and wait with an induction for medium-range skills while wearing light armor. In fact, it's possibly the most risky way to DPS. No other class has the option of DPS'ing with all 4 of those risk factors. Doing so, despite the risks, should carry a nice reward: High DPS. I'm not saying it should be A TON higher, but definitely noticeable. Maybe 5% - 10% higher than everyone else.

You haven't really adressed my point about CA being somewhat like a channeled DoT, either.

Sorry, I missed it, but here goes. CA isn't anything like a channeled DoT. Why?

1a) You don't have to stand still, thereby risking interruption that will reduce DPS.
1b) You don't have to stand still, thereby risking being stunned and eaten.
2) CA can devastate.
3) CA increases attunement at each press of the button; channeled DoT's do not.
4) As it is currently implemented, CA requires 0 attunement, and Smouldering Wrath requires 9 attunement.
5) CA requires the RK to constantly click a skill. Channeled DoT's do not require such attention.

The only thing that makes it remotely resemble a DoT is that it repeatedly does damage. If that were the only criteria, every lightning skill would be a "DoT." For that matter, everything that hunters and champs do would be "DoT's" too.

[Valiant_Turtle]

My RK is only lvl 36, but I've been following RK developments closely. Let me try to state my understanding of the problem and throw out a few possible solutions.

The problem as I understand it is that there are a whole lot of times when you really need burst DPS, which is bad for Fire RKs. Even worse, that burst is often needed on new targets (adds) that you aren't going to have stacked dots on yet, so something that does massive damage if you've already got stacked dots isn't really that useful. Fire's sustained DPS is awesome, but it's burst just doesn't cut it. Lightning's sustained DPS is generally "good enough" so everyone is going to trait lightning because that's the only way to reach the necessary burst level.

I think the revamped traitlines hint at one way to fix this. I noticed how all 3 lines give a bonus to frost damage and it's actually one of my favorite changes. I rarely use frost when I'm soloing, but I really enjoy tossing it out when I can. What I would suggest is to change this so that you always get the damage bonus to lightning instead. This might mean completely eliminating the Solitary Thunder trait-set and creating a frost-set. Frost would probably need to offer less sustained DPS than fire but add continual debuffs or it could be more of an AOE DPS line. I think either approach would work. A simpler option would be to just put a solid amount of burst dps into the frost skills and allow the revamped bonuses to do their thing.

But what I would really like to see are traitlines that embrace the dynamic RK role between dps and healing and truly allow for either. We could have a single-target trait-line, which applies bonuses to single-target dps or single-target healing, an AOE trait-line for AOE damage or AOE healing and then a buff/debuff traitline. We would probably still need separate LIs for DPS/healing, but I think that's acceptable.

[PerfectApproach]

I think the revamped traitlines hint at one way to fix this. I noticed how all 3 lines give a bonus to frost damage and it's actually one of my favorite changes. I rarely use frost when I'm soloing, but I really enjoy tossing it out when I can. What I would suggest is to change this so that you always get the damage bonus to lightning instead. This might mean completely eliminating the Solitary Thunder trait-set and creating a frost-set. Frost would probably need to offer less sustained DPS than fire but add continual debuffs or it could be more of an AOE DPS line.

But what I would really like to see are traitlines that embrace the dynamic RK role between dps and healing and truly allow for either. We could have a single-target trait-line, which applies bonuses to single-target dps or single-target healing, an AOE trait-line for AOE damage or AOE healing and then a buff/debuff traitline. We would probably still need separate LIs for DPS/healing, but I think that's acceptable.

Yeah, one of the emerging problems I see with RK's is that the class is trying to balance too many things. DPS vs. heals, burst dps vs. steady dps, power efficiency vs. high damage, mobility vs. functionality (dps and heals), survivability vs. functionality, single-target vs. AOE, etc, etc. Sometimes it feels like there are 7 or 8 ropes pulling on RK's in different directions, and everyone with a rope thinks they have the most important rope. And all the other DPS classes and Healing classes have ropes too, pulling yet other directions, and Creeps still other directions. It can be frustrating. Watching your RK drift away from you because someone else is pulling their rope harder is even more frustrating.

Switching the roles of Chill of Winter and Fury of Storm is an interesting proposal. I've also bounced an idea around the forums that if we removed all damage from Chill of Winter skills, the attunement could be switched, and an RK could potentially Heal and Debuff at the same time. Nobody else does that, and RK's are in a perfect position to be able to do that. The idea never met with much success.

[Therubor]

@PerfectApproach

Okay, let's see what sort of stuff from your post I can handle.

First off, I was wrong about CA. Sorry.

Second off, about the damage increase you propose, well, it's not really balanced, is it? Hunters and Champs would go into neglect, and people would simply kick them and add more tanks in an attempt to make up for their new DPSers' squishiness.

Thirdly, about hybrids, well, the thing is that both playstyles begin to suffer.

Fourth, about your FR revision...that'd make Fire RKs impossible to play at low levels.

Fifth, making Fire all sustained DPS and Lightning all burst is kinda sorta counterintuitive to the whole 'RKs are the most flexible class' idea that we were sort of envisioned around.

And lastly, I'd like to finally make an up-front statement about why Fire needs some more burst capability:
I want to use skills that are thematically appropriate.

Simple as that. It's not as satisfying to use lightning when I want to be a Fire RK.

Edit: Aside from this, what do you think of my idea for Frost changes I added to the first post?

[Bradegor]

One thing to point out, is that new trait lines have been reworked so they only really go for "full" if they´re traited for it. We lose CV damage (10%) and we aren´t getting it back unless we trait DEEP (4 or even 5 for the capstone) on that traitline. This means:

1) Hybrid Fire/lightning doesn´t seem to work too well (you´re missin way lots of %damage off capstone and 4 set bonus)
2) If you add Lightning skills to your Fire rotation, assuming you trait for Fire, means that after Update 6 your Lightning skills will do 10% less damage than now.
3) itemization would be a ruin. In Fire gear, with Fire traits, with a Fire runestones and a Fire satchel, your Lightning damage is LOW. If you want burst you won´t have time to switch all your LIs/gear (that considering you have a Lightning 1st ager and a Fire 1st ager :P).

My question for you, ZC, is: i know you look for make different trait lines and so, but for raiding, which is supposedly the only place the Fire traits are on their place (soloing, Moors, and probably fellowships Lightning is better), you´re taking one part of the equation which is needed in some raid fights. My thought is, why should we go for Fire, if Lightning is getting lots of power conservation love, and will parse close to Fire DPS with much better burst damage, which is needed in several fights? Threat only?

Do you feel that with these changes, you aren´t nerfing RKs who play Fire and do it mainly for raiding, and who will see close to unable to perform certain roles they were able to perform before Update 6? Roles that still the other DPS classes will be able to do.

My opinion is that you´re simply buffing Lightning/Moors and healing RKs, who were inferior to their counterparts, while toning down the Fire RKs who were on the spot, always looking for the "balance". But maybe spoiling all the hard work RK players have done on getting their ToO sets and 1st ager Fire runestones, now for just check that they´re not good enough for the spot, and that they should have chosen the Lightning versions, and being able not only just to raid, but solo, Moors and fellowships better, effectively making us RKs return to pre RoI where Lightning was king and noone used Fire.

[Sizzling]

A very interesting idea. I don't want to have traits reference each other though, prefer something like "Scathing Retort - Added functionality. Calming Verse now reduces the channel time of Smouldering Wrath by 75%, and increases it's damage by 50%." There, burst if you want it.

However, I think the 6sec duration Smouldering Wrath that will be shipping will feel plenty bursty. IEoF into EF into Smouldering Wrath will be quite a bit of damage fast. I'm also all-right with the fire line having less burst, that is the preview of lightning. Fire has it's own advantages.

Great post!

So, you're alright with having the fire line with less burst DPS (which is fair, and I understand the reasoning behind it, though I respectfully disagree), but you're also alright with having lightning be more sustainable DPS? I don't understand the reasoning behind folks that argue that fire should not have burst damage, but then are perfectly willing to accept lightning get a sizable boost to sustainability. To better balance, it seems better to provide the sustainability boost to lightning but not at the expense of heavily nerfing fire burst (I.e. changing IEoF to only 2-3 seconds of non-inductions, like Warth suggested). That way, it truly does become a matter of player preference.

I think it was Therubor, in this same thread, that commented that fire needs a touch more burst DPS than what Update 6 will provide if lightning is given more sustainability, even if it comes at a cost. I would agree with that. That, or I would propose shortening IEoF to a 45 second CD to allow for consistent burst DPS (with Essence of Flame/SW) needed in fights where burst is needed every ~45 seconds or so, if not a bit shorter.
@ Perfect Approach - Yes, Shocking Words/Essence of Storm/EC are still relatively hard hitting (assuming a crit in particular) fire-spec'd, but Bradegor is right with his last post. They won't be as hard hitting with the Update 6 changes, and they're still largely crit dependent, which isn't the fire line's strong suit.
What I see happening is that lightning will become the stronger choice for most of ToO aside from Saruman and possibly Kalbak, which largely appeals to RKs that prefer lightning, but will become a sore spot for those RKs that prefer fire.
At the end of the day, I prefer fire, but will ultimately trait whatever is most effective for the situation, and provides a good combination of burst and sustained DPS, and it sounds like lightning will do that.
While I can respect Z.C.'s decision to make both dps trait lines viable for end-game, I agree with the sentiment that we may be back to having most RKs trait lightning, which means I may need to make my FA
into a lightning stone (because my next FA will be a healing satchel) and use all of the seals I've amassed to acquire the lightning set. /Sigh.