Fire DPS Parses

[PerfectApproach]

I broke down and decided to do more fire DPS parses.

Update 6 is a nerf.

I was only able to reach ~ 1520 DPS across 3 parses on the test dummy in E&G, with a spread of no more than 6 dps. On the live servers, against the training dummies in Galtrev, I can currently reach an excess of 1900 dps, with no raid buffs. So yeah. 400 DPS nerf, for this guy. Not happy.

Edit: I did another parse, just to make sure I had my traits set correctly, and I had the correct weapons/gear equipped. I hadn't really equipped him with anything special other than what I have on live. It's the copy of my live toon, and I didn't do anything to him once I got to the E&G. 2x 2a lvl 75 stones and satchel, maxed legacies, good relics, all the good fire traits, accommodated for the changes in Linnods.

I took screenies of my setup, my legendary gear, my traits, and then I took screenies every minute as I hit the dummy for 5 minutes. Never topped 1600 DPS. Oh, and I discovered that Fall to Flame makes no appreciable difference.

I can provide the screenies for those who want to analyze them. So yes, this is not just a burst DPS nerf for you guys who think Fire needs burst... this is an overall sustained Fire DPS nerf.

Oh yeah, I did load in the latest Combat analysis plugin that's on the BR forums.

Edit 2: I should mention on my Bullroarer parse that I wasn't really using CV... it doesn't contribute to DPS anymore. I WAS using it on Brandywine. Noticeably missing also is Fall to Our Wrath. I'm gonna slot that and see how much of a difference it makes. It makes a TON of difference on Brandywine. Stay tuned.

Edit 3: Fall to Our Wrath is bugged. When Fall to Flame is applied to the target, the Fall to Our Wrath - Winter debuff is applied. Against the dummies in Galtrev (which hit back now!!!), I was barely able to top 1000 DPS.

===== Wrap-Up =====

Fire RK's have not only been nerfed, we've been MASSIVELY nerfed. On the order of 40% - 50% reduction in DPS. No, that is no exaggeration. I have screenshots of parses to prove it. Parses on almost identical builds on Brandywine and on Bullroarer yield an almost 50% decrease in Fire DPS (and a bug). Specifically, I averaged 1899 against the training dummies in Galtrev. On Bullroarer, against the exact same dummies, I averaged 976 DPS. Same build, traits optimized for the new changes.

Let that sink in, Zombie Columbus. 50% reduction in DPS. Not 5%. Not 10%. Fifty-percent reduction. Half the damage as before. For a "premium" class. Good luck getting people to pay for it now.

[Telcharan]

Which training dummy were you parsing on? All the ones I know of that are available on live reset DoTs every fifteen seconds regardless of what you're doing, meaning that a proper fire parse is impossible. This would affect a live parse less than a BR parse because upfront damage from FR, not DoT damage, would account for more of the total damage done.

[PerfectApproach]

Initially, I parsed against the test dummy in E&G for a "shoot-from-the-hip" estimate of what I could expect when it goes live. The loss of 400 DPS made me go back to live, trait up for fire DPS, and do some parsing against the test dummies to make sure I wasn't losing my mind. Then, just to make sure I parsed against under the EXACT conditions as I did on Brandywine, I logged into Bullroarer, made sure I had all the correct traits slotted, and went against the training dummies in Galtrev. 976 DPS averaged over 7 parses, versus the 1899 DPS averaged over 3 parses on Brandywine.

Now I REALLY want that lightning DoT, because there's no way I'm staying fire-traited. It's just hard for me to believe that the Rune-Keeper has fallen this far. Everytime the Rune-Keeper gets an update, I'm thinking OK, surely Zombie can't screw it up AGAIN. Surely, he's seen some of the changes that need to be done. Surely, he'll get it right this time. And then, AGAIN, he lets me down. And he keeps letting me down. And then he lets me down some more.

Zombie, I've tried my hardest to understand what you're doing with this class. REALLY hard. But it's screwed up beyond recognition now. You might as well scrap the fire line altogether; there's no point in having it. I REALLY hope that you've somehow miracled Wrath of Flame back to life between the Bullroarer build and the build that goes live Monday, but I don't have high hopes. You've let me down too much.

BTW, Zombie, let me help you out with your "grand scheme" to make both Lightning and Fire raid-friendly. It will never, ever work. Why? Because even if you manage to make the DPS, power consumption, threat, and every other quality of fire and lightning match each other so they can both be used in raids, and then match them both to all the other DPS of all the other classes so they don't whine, lightning will still always have 2 advantages: no inductions, and mobility. No one will choose to DPS with fire when they can get the exact same performance without inductions and without having to stand still. So good luck with that.

[Leonardan]

Which training dummy were you parsing on? All the ones I know of that are available on live reset DoTs every fifteen seconds regardless of what you're doing, meaning that a proper fire parse is impossible. This would affect a live parse less than a BR parse because upfront damage from FR, not DoT damage, would account for more of the total damage done.

Yeah, something is wrong, because dummies are reseting even on bullroarer. I can't even try the new scathing retort trait, because when Im applying writ of fire, Mf and fiery ridicule, it resets before I can use Smoldering Wrath.

The same is happening to me with moors' dummies.

Im gonna try E&G too!

[Idiotvillage]

The update 6 changes to rk seem to be reducing fire burst damage in favour of damage over time. Due to dummies wiping dots (which really ought to be fixed) burst dummy damage parses higher than dot. I think parses on mobs would be more informative. Your post contains massive exaggeration.

[Telcharan]

Initially, I parsed against the test dummy in E&G for a "shoot-from-the-hip" estimate of what I could expect when it goes live. The loss of 400 DPS made me go back to live, trait up for fire DPS, and do some parsing against the test dummies to make sure I wasn't losing my mind. Then, just to make sure I parsed against under the EXACT conditions as I did on Brandywine, I logged into Bullroarer, made sure I had all the correct traits slotted, and went against the training dummies in Galtrev. 976 DPS averaged over 7 parses, versus the 1899 DPS averaged over 3 parses on Brandywine.

Are there any dummies in the E&G that do not reset DoTs? If so, are those dummies equivalent in mitigations etc. to the dummies in Galtrev? I can't see how you could do a parse under the exact same conditions on both with DoT resets being the way they are on all the dummies I know of on live.

[PerfectApproach]

Your post contains massive exaggeration.

ORLY?

Here - My Bullroarer setup.

Here - 937 DPS on the dummy in Galtrev

Here - 1500-something DPS on the dummy in Eyes and Guard.

Due to dummies wiping dots (which really ought to be fixed) burst dummy damage parses higher than dot. I think parses on mobs would be more informative.

Dummies still give you 15 minutes of wipe-free goodness. Regardless, I was still unable to top 1600 against a test dummy with raid buffs, after 5 minutes. THAT dummy doesn't wipe DoT's. And parses against mobs would NOT be more informative. Live mobs have too many confounding variables. Normally, one-off parses on a training dummy wouldn't be meaningful either. But I seriously sat here, logged into Bullroarer, took a parse, logged into Brandywine, and took the same exact parse, exact same setup, exact same character, exact same training dummy.

The screenshots speak for themselves.

(I didn't screenshot my Brandywine Galtrev parses. Any RK can go to Galtrev and easily reproduce my results. If you STILL don't believe me, I'll go to Galtrev and screenshot it, but it won't be tonight.)

[PerfectApproach]

Are there any dummies in the E&G that do not reset DoTs? If so, are those dummies equivalent in mitigations etc. to the dummies in Galtrev? I can't see how you could do a parse under the exact same conditions on both with DoT resets being the way they are on all the dummies I know of on live.

I only parsed for 15 seconds on each Galtrev dummy... DoT's weren't wiped.

Besides, as I said before, I also did a 5 minute parse on the E&G dummy.

Edit: WTFever! DoT wipes shouldn't matter anyway, because they would be wiped equally on Bwine and Broarer! The DPS numbers should at least be in the ballpark of each other! C'mon, basic Scientific Theory....

[revoked]

Sure you reapplied all your points? I did parse once with lightning, got that kind of result, and was horrified...until I realized I had never reapplied my points to that weapon.

On the E&G dummy with my RK in pre-ToO gear, I was parsing 1400-1500 dps over an extended period of time in melee range. On the test dummy in Galtrev, I think I only managed around 1200. Very sad to see the loss of the initial 1800-2000 or more I can get on live during the 5-6 initial seconds on live. Of course, the Galtrev dummy is useless for a real parse of fire given the resets, but the comparison from live to BR does give an indication in the loss of burst we will experience with U6.

[PerfectApproach]

Sure you reapplied all your points? I did parse once with lightning, got that kind of result, and was horrified...until I realized I had never reapplied my points to that weapon.

On the E&G dummy with my RK in pre-ToO gear, I was parsing 1400-1500 dps over an extended period of time in melee range. On the test dummy in Galtrev, I think I only managed around 1200. Very sad to see the loss of the initial 1800-2000 or more I can get on live during the 5-6 initial seconds on live. Of course, the Galtrev dummy is useless for a real parse of fire given the resets, but the comparison from live to BR does give an indication in the loss of burst we will experience with U6.

Yup. I screenied the legacies on my weps too. All maxed.

[Telcharan]

I only parsed for 15 seconds on each Galtrev dummy... DoT's weren't wiped.

Besides, as I said before, I also did a 5 minute parse on the E&G dummy.

Edit: WTFever! DoT wipes shouldn't matter anyway, because they would be wiped equally on Bwine and Broarer! The DPS numbers should at least be in the ballpark of each other! C'mon, basic Scientific Theory....

If you're following the scientific method, you should be aware of confounding variables. Using different training dummies introduces them. And DoT wipes certainly introduces them. The main part of the DPS we're losing from fire with the changes are the multiple uses of FR all in a row, which output a large quantity of upfront damage that would not be subject to DoT wipes. The DPS we're gaining is from things like a change to smouldering wrath, which is buffed by DoTs that are subject to wipes, and a buffed MF, which is also subject to wipes. It's not apples and apples. A fair comparison of sustained DPS requires a static target, a long fight, and no DoT wipes.

[Raven-EU]

Dummies still give you 15 minutes of wipe-free goodness. Regardless, I was still unable to top 1600 against a test dummy with raid buffs, after 5 minutes. THAT dummy doesn't wipe DoT's.

On the E'n'G screenshot you have nine (9) fire related effects on the dummy after a 5 minute parse. If you look at your Galtrev screenie you see one (1) fire related effect on the dummy after a 17 second parse. Even after only 17 seconds you should definitely have more effects then that, at least Writ of Fire and Mystifying Flames and if you started the fight by pre-buffing with Fall to Flame you should still have had the You Shall Fall To Our Wrath buff on the dummy (30s duration).

The Galtrev dummies reset every 15 seconds and that makes them quite unusable for parsing anything that gets the majority of the DPS from DoTs. Wardens, Hunters and Lore-Masters also have the exact same problem. Given the change to iEoF I'd be surprised if you could match your cold start DPS from live, especially on the Galtrev dummies.

I've also noted when parsing in the E'n'G that if you initiate combat on the dummy you get a lot of buffs, like Oath Breakers. 10 seconds of +30% damage with the old iEoF nova start could give some really stupid DPS values. My parses start stabilizing after about 3-4 minutes (which is why your 5 minute parse from E'n'G is just right). Another option would be to have someone else trigger the dummy, you then wait for about 15 seconds for the Oathies to go away, then start parsing.

[nikosi]

would be nice if ZC could comment on that...
I think he parsed a lot while developing the new traits and skills.

[Anoir]

I did similar parses with my RK on Bullroarer, for around 5mins in EG Dummy (Doesnt reset dots, lvl 65 mob and raid buffs) and I got to an about 1500-1600 DPS. Now on live I can get more DPS then that on an training dummy in Galtrev that resets dots every 15secs and is an lvl 75 mob even.

OP is right, fire has been nerfed BIG TIME, not just in the burst damage section, but also in the overall DPS.

Just wait and see it yourself next Monday if you refuse to believe it in here.

[Raven-EU]

I seem to be doing about the same amount of damage on regular content (i.e. Foundry, landscape trash etc) but it's hard to meassure because things die really really fast. Perhaps it's the dummys that have been buffed rather than fire that has been nerfed? How do your lightning parses compare?

Or worse... Maybe there is a generic bug in mitigation calculations affecting all tactical damage?

[Markbjorn]

Would be nice if ZC can give an answer to OP's concern.
Is it true fire got big nerf? And why?

[Warth]

While I agree that fire is being nerfed in some capacity, did your parses take into account a new rotation for fire? Parsing would have to involve use of SW now instead of spamming FR, something you just can't do effectively on Galtrev dummies.

[Ellery01]

Look, whether or not fire's DPS has gone down or not isn't really known by us yet. This 'comparison' of DPS has so many flaws it makes any true number's person's soul die a little inside :P He parsed for 15s, comparing Galtrev to Eyes and Guard tavern. Old fire let you do a stupidly ridiculous essay of flame burst, so of course any parse you do with that that's only 15s (LOL) long is going to look super nice. Not to mention the dummies in the E&G tavern get cycling raid debuffs such as OB and what not.

It's okay fire RKs, the sky is NOT falling. At least not yet. Let's wait to draw our conclusions until Monday.

[Raven-EU]

I just did a very (like very very) quick check on lightning:

You should always parse (at least) 25% higher on the E'n'G dummy compared to the dummy in Galtrev simply due to having +25% damage on the E'n'G dummy (LM circle +10% tactical damage, RW +10% damage, cappy mark +5%).

I did a quick test using only CA and the parse on the Galtrev dummy was almost exactly 80% of that of the E'n'G parse. I also did some quick parsing using fire. However, since the Galtrev dummy reset every 15 seconds I could not get any good values at all. Extrapolating and guessing won't give any usable values.

[PerfectApproach]

On the E'n'G screenshot you have nine (9) fire related effects on the dummy after a 5 minute parse. If you look at your Galtrev screenie you see one (1) fire related effect on the dummy after a 17 second parse. Even after only 17 seconds you should definitely have more effects then that....

The dummy wipes it all at 15.3 seconds. It took me 1.5 seconds to realize my DoT's had been wiped and hit F11. My DPS reached 900+ at about the 11 second mark and stayed steady until dot's were wiped. I was able to top 1000 on a few parses, but I didn't catch the F11 key in time. I have other parses on that dummy that show my DPS ramping up to 900, with all the DoT's applied. My DPS didn't appreciably decrease in the short time it took me to actually reach the F11 button, after the DoT's wiped.

[PerfectApproach]

The main part of the DPS we're losing from fire with the changes are the multiple uses of FR all in a row, which output a large quantity of upfront damage that would not be subject to DoT wipes. The DPS we're gaining is from things like a change to smouldering wrath, which is buffed by DoTs that are subject to wipes, and a buffed MF, which is also subject to wipes.

Ok, I see some assumptions made here that shouldn't be, so I'll clear this up. The short story is that I don't use the IEoF > FR > FR > FR > FR > FR rotation that the facerollers are accustomed to.

Live Rotation (struggling to remember; it's been a while and I'm REALLY ill):
Fall to Flame, Fall to Wrath, Calming Verse, FR, FR, IEoF, FR, FR, MF, Essence, FR, FR, Smouldering.
Beta Rotation:
Fall to Flame, FR, IEoF, FR, MF, FR, FR, Essence, FR, FR, Smouldering.

I do understand that because I'm limited to 15 seconds of testable DPS on the Galtrev dummies, you might expect that it doesn't have time to "settle out." However, it should still be pretty close. I know the nerf was on the instant, burst damage; I was expecting that. What I WASN'T expecting was a 50% difference over 15 seconds. I could understand a 15% - 20% difference across 15 seconds if my DPS was going steadily up for 15 s. But it wasn't. It was settling at about 930 DPS and stopping. It did have time to settle. And it settled at the number you see in the screenshots.

As to the E&G dummy, that was originally just a one-off just to see approximately where we're gonna be on Monday. I was NOT expecting 1500 dps after 5 minutes. I was expecting more like 1700/1800, akin to what I was able to lay onto the Galtrev dummy on live.

I really really wish there was an E&G dummy on Brandywine!

[Raven-EU]

The dummy wipes it all at 15.3 seconds. It took me 1.5 seconds to realize my DoT's had been wiped and hit F11. My DPS reached 900+ at about the 11 second mark and stayed steady until dot's were wiped. I was able to top 1000 on a few parses, but I didn't catch the F11 key in time. I have other parses on that dummy that show my DPS ramping up to 900, with all the DoT's applied. My DPS didn't appreciably decrease in the short time it took me to actually reach the F11 button, after the DoT's wiped.

Yes, that was what I noticed too I now I understand the screenshot a lot better. My CombatAnalysis actually reset every 15 seconds so I couldn't even get a 1 minute total.

[ifreborn1]

I think they did this to prevent RK stacking and trivilizing ToO t2 saruman and Fire and frost.


Just my gut feeling.

[Rothdire]

15 second parses...really?

That's all you need to know to discount this entire thread. Seriously, 15 second parses aren't going to tell you ANYTHING.

Even if there was a major nerf (which I'm not convinced of yet), it's too late to change it now. Just wait til Monday and go test this out on live. And when I say test it out, that means no 15 second parses! If you're trying to parse burst dps, go for around a minute. If you're trying to parse sustained dps, go for around 5 minutes.

[PerfectApproach]

15 second parses...really?

That's all you need to know to discount this entire thread. Seriously, 15 second parses aren't going to tell you ANYTHING.

Even if there was a major nerf (which I'm not convinced of yet), it's too late to change it now. Just wait til Monday and go test this out on live. And when I say test it out, that means no 15 second parses! If you're trying to parse burst dps, go for around a minute. If you're trying to parse sustained dps, go for around 5 minutes.

Easy for a champ to say. The simple truth is that there is nothing on the live server that will live for longer than 1 minute that won't kill us. Parses on bosses in raids would work, except they all have different mitigations... hard to compare. And, there a wide variety of raid buffs/debuffs at work in raids too. Hard to get a meaningful parse in raids on live servers.

FWIW, I usually do testing on the last boss, T2 Rift Skirmish (Erebun). On live, I can reach about 1000 DPS against him with fire. I didn't have a chance to test against him on Bullroarer. You can bet come Monday, that's where I'll be.