What justifies calling this an "expansion"?

[josh13333]

So, the statement that said that the instance cluster would be included with RoR was incorrect. If we have to pay for it after, then it's clearly not part of the expansion at all.

What does this mean?

A. It means that Turbine has found a way to make a even worse situation than RoI! Not only are people angry about the price(as seen by the 20+ pages of discussion), the lack of instances at launch(didn't think they could pull that one again after RoI, I was wrong), but now we are probably going to have to pay thousands of turbine points for instances set in ROHAN(IE, the region of this so called expansion)

B. Since those instances will most likely not be free, they can't be classified as expansion content. They are seperate content. So what does that leave us with this "expansion"? Normal quests, daily quests that won't even be in at launch, and mounted combat. Does that sound like an expansion to you?

I know many of you remember when Moria launched. That expansion was AMAZING. So much content. Instances, classes, quests, atmosphere. That was the peak of this game. When SoM came out, there were rumbles of discontent. Yes, it was smaller, but it has quite a few instances and skirmishes, so that was still called a expansion by most people here. Then the fiasco of RoI hit. The anger was something I'd never seen before. Everything that could possibly be screwed up was. What manged to save it for many people was that we did get instances, and they did come with the expansion. But now? Nothing. And you'll be charging us later for what we do get. The anger and disgust now is greater than RoI by so large a margin.

We are paying 40 bucks for a quest pack! Who in the world over there thought in any way that it would be acceptable to launch an expansion with ZERO instances? Can you name any other serious mmo that has done that and been succesful with it? I can't.

I supported you through RoI. I thought you maybe would have learned some things from it. But in reality, all you've learned is how to give us less content for more money, and to enrage your playerbase in a way I never thought possible.

The past few days I've said yeah, I'm sure I'll buy it anyway. But no, no more. I will not pay 40 dollars for your quest pack and then pay 15-20 more bucks in turbine points that should have been included all along. I"m simply not doing it. Maybe if I see a 50% off sale I'll pick it up, but you can forget about that preorder I was going to do.

I don't know if any of you have heard of the MMO Troll on youtube, but he used to do weekly lotro coverage. After a while when the armor in the store thing hit, he stopped doing it as a protest at turbine's broken promises. I unsubbed him because I thought that turbine would never sink any lower, and I didn't feel the same way. But now I realize he was right. He was completely right. You did sink lower. Far lower than I thought possible.

And if you do decide to give it to us with the expansion, it won't matter. Because you've shown your intention by saying "Oh, we aren't completely sure yet".

Don't worry, this is the last rant I'll clog the forums with for a good long while. I've never been one to post negatively much, and I won't keep it going after this. Because I see now that it really doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't matter how much anger or frustration you get, because you really don't care. I'm sure the devs do, but I have a feeling that the corporate types overrule them quite often.

I'm perfectly open to people pointing out why I'm not justified in feeling this way if you feel the need.

Au revoir, Turbine.

~Josh

[Eltheanor]

Totally agree. I wonder though.

Maybe Turbine sees it like..MoM and SoM were before f2p. RoI and RoR are after f2p. I don't really know or understand it. How it got here is sad anyway. From MoM to RoR. Less quality less quantity and moar grind. Well we still get to see mounted combat so we'll see.

Not that I am going to buy lol. Will go inactive and will re install around Sepetember to see what RoR really is. Then wait for the in game store sales if it's worth it,that is.

[CGDrakken]

Turbine's definition of "expansion" is now we have increased the landmass, if you require anything else, ie: quests, instances, etc., please see the LOTRO store for all your needs.

I guess the new stuff they said they are trying in the Massively interview is everything that used to be part of an "expansion" is now being sold piece meal at top dollar. It's really quite a shame, I was hoping that this one would be the return to glory for Turbine after RoI. Guess not.

[josh13333]

Turbine's definition of "expansion" is now we have increased the landmass, if you require anything else, ie: quests, instances, etc., please see the LOTRO store for all your needs.

I guess the new stuff they said they are trying in the Massively interview is everything that used to be part of an "expansion" is now being sold piece meal at top dollar. It's really quite a shame, I was hoping that this one would be the return to glory for Turbine after RoI. Guess not.

Yeah, I had high hopes as well.

[Namesse]

An expansion is a landmass for which Turbine requires additional money from subscribers. It doesn't need to have anything else in it. Except for the fact that it fell during the Third Quarter of the Fiscal Year, this would normally be a new region and a quest pack.

[Catisa]

Expansions include a level cap increase. Quest packs do not.

[josh13333]

Expansions include a level cap increase. Quest packs do not.

I'm looking at it from a content point of view. It seems to me that all the quest packs could have easily had level cap increases. It's been a genre norm for the past decade to include instances with an expansion. It's not good to charge more than average and have less content than average.



Namesse, do you think it's fair we are being charged $40 dollars for what would usually be a quest pack?

[Vulcan583]

I thought if you own ROR you get the instances for free, its just that they don't have time to release it when ROR launches?

[Dawnsinger]

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...04#post6219804

Sorry confirmed that the instances are not part of the pre-order

[Ceremony]

There is going to be some very upset and pissed off customers this fall.

[donxavier]

Not sure if this will help you but I believe it's considered an expansion because it includes the following things: 10 more levels, supposedly more quests than RoI, a region that Turbine claims is twice as large as Moria, a new game mechanic (mounted combat), graphical upgrades to the environment and an instance cluster. Admittedly, the instance cluster is coming after the release of RoR, but if you purchase the xpac then the instance cluster is free. Not sure how it will work if you pay with TP's. Quest packs and updates , on the other hand, offer nothing beyond additional quests in a particular region.

[josh13333]

Not sure if this will help you but I believe it's considered an expansion because it includes the following things: 10 more levels, supposedly more quests than RoI, a region that Turbine claims is twice as large as Moria, a new game mechanic (mounted combat), graphical upgrades to the environment and an instance cluster. Admittedly, the instance cluster is coming after the release of RoR, but if you purchase the xpac then the instance cluster is free. Not sure how it will work if you pay with TP's. Quest packs and updates , on the other hand, offer nothing beyond additional quests in a particular region.

The instance cluster is not free. Turbine said that the original faq answer was incorrect. The link above confirms that.

I was slightly upset but ok with it before I learned that. But now you have to spend 40 bucks for the quests, and probably the equivalent of 15 more for the instances. Which I'm simply not going to do.

I think that since "This will be included with the cost of the expansion" was clearly there in the faq, and people paid for it because of that, in pretty much every state in the US atleast you are fully entitled to a refund if you ask for it.

Because if you bought something due to advertisement that they was later changed, and they refuse to give you a refund, then it's illegal in every way I can think of. Textbook false advertising, intentional or not.

[Solyrys]

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong because I'm VIp, but the packs are free for me, since i pay monthly and am buying the expansion.. Not 100% sure how it works for F2P in other games but its probably the same way?

[josh13333]

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong because I'm VIp, but the packs are free for me, since i pay monthly and am buying the expansion.. Not 100% sure how it works for F2P in other games but its probably the same way?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

You probably(I say probably because it's not confirmed) will get the instances free as a VIP.

But in all the past expansions, they have either had an instance cluster at launch or following but free to people who bought the expansion.

It just hits a nerve that they charge more for this than in the past and decide not to include instances.

[Grieyls]

Well I'm VIP too and so I get them for free too, well relatively speaking of course. In a way its about time we VIP customers got a bonus


Thats right, I'm the type of person who sees the glass half full

[Skigorn]

In the past I have fully supported this game by preordering the expansions and buying TP when needed. This "expansion" reeks of greed...we get less for more (more money, that is). Hopefully Turbine and more specifically WB will see the impact of a less-than-stellar preorder and the anger by their faithful customers. Don't buy it, let them know of our frustration. I for one have already decided to put my cash somewhere else.

No amount of complaining will matter unless the $$$ isn't what they forecast. That is the only way to get their attention.

[Mark_J]

I'm Lifetime, I received Instances in Updates as part of my subscription in the past.

The fact is I have absolutely no idea if that will be the case with the Instances coming out after RoR. It would have been a simple matter for Turbine to clarify that the Instances will be free to VIPs as they were in the past but they chose NOT to confirm this. Instead all that they confirmed is that they are discussing the price.

If there is a price it's not free...

[donxavier]

The instance cluster is not free. Turbine said that the original faq answer was incorrect. The link above confirms that.

I was slightly upset but ok with it before I learned that. But now you have to spend 40 bucks for the quests, and probably the equivalent of 15 more for the instances. Which I'm simply not going to do.

I think that since "This will be included with the cost of the expansion" was clearly there in the faq, and people paid for it because of that, in pretty much every state in the US atleast you are fully entitled to a refund if you ask for it.

Because if you bought something due to advertisement that they was later changed, and they refuse to give you a refund, then it's illegal in every way I can think of. Textbook false advertising, intentional or not.

Check the time stamp on my original post. Obviously, I was in the midst of writing mine when Dawnsinger submitted theirs, that is why I did not see the link. That aside, the whole instance not being included in the price of RoR doesn't affect me in the slightest. I've never had a mad on for doing them in the first place.

This whole pre-order debacle looks, to me, like someone at Turbine pulled the trigger too soon. They gave the OK to release the site before everything was ready. They probably did it so they would have something to talk about at E3.

[josh13333]

Check the time stamp on my original post. Obviously, I was in the midst of writing mine when Dawnsinger submitted theirs, that is why I did not see the link. That aside, the whole instance not being included in the price of RoR doesn't affect me in the slightest. I've never had a mad on for doing them in the first place.

This whole pre-order debacle looks, to me, like someone at Turbine pulled the trigger too soon. They gave the OK to release the site before everything was ready. They probably did it so they would have something to talk about at E3.

It wouldn't have mattered when they released the info honestly.

It's the principal of thinking they can charge more for less that reeks of greed. They can spin it any way they want, but we are getting a 40 dollar quest pack with mounted combat. That's really all there is too it.

And if they don't give the instances to VIP's free, then the other 50% of the playerbase is going to be up in arms.

[Vandervahn]

...

I'm perfectly open to people pointing out why I'm not justified in feeling this way if you feel the need.
...

I think you and many others are hanging themselves a bit too much on that instances thread. Having to pay extra for them, one way or the other, is s**t. The price of the whole expansion is worse.

But:
In the end what matters is the gameplay experience. Turbine says a new form of endgame is coming. Now, they´ve apparently spent considerable resources into this mounted combat, And Rohan is the only place you can do it... so my best guess at the moment is that there will be a considerable amount of endgame content focused on that. Not to mention, theyare confident enough in their new stuff to charge such a never-before seen premium for it. We can only hope that it will work out enjoyable. Because if it is not, its gonna be a boring time (probably less than the RoI delay though - though I, in fact, enjoyed the skirmish raid frenzy and hunt for worn symbols for a while).

My main problem with the current setup is: in this game that has packed 99% of its endgame activity into instances for the past 5 years, how could they bring this expansion and not be offensive in marketing their new instance-less endgame to the playerbase. Such a huge swing, and not a single bit of in-depth light shod on it. (bits and pieces are now appearing in some media releases - how about just one picture of the new trait system or the horse UI for a change?).

I cannot fathom this way to handle the matter. They are hurting their reputation, they are hurting their owners, they are hurting the community with the current style. People WILL leave over this matter, and some of them could be retained by a proper advertising. Every competing company I know or care about does this smarter, creating excitement through glimpses at the new game, and not through constant self-quoting that it will gonna be glorious. Hello? This expansion is due to come out in under 3 months- how can they act as if things are not ready to present yet?!? Sorry, but the only impression this creates is either that Turbine doesnt have much to present yet... or that they know its not enough. Please, start showing us how good it is.

Personally, i will not buy until I am convinced to have a good impression of mounted combat and the other stuff said to be coming. Only thing is, if that takes too long it will conflict with other game releases that are priced similarly. Because, love of Middle Earth aside, at the core has to be a game that is enjoyable and of decent value.

[Alex53]

Well I'm VIP too and so I get them for free too, well relatively speaking of course. In a way its about time we VIP customers got a bonus


Thats right, I'm the type of person who sees the glass half full

I wouldnt count on that just yet. Officially they are still discussing the pricing.

A precedent of sorts is that VIPs/Lifetimers that bought RoI with TP had to buy Draigoch separately for more TP, while those that used cash for RoI had Draigoch included. (Something they were conveniently quiet about while lots of people bought TP on a special offer they were planning to use for RoI).

Given that precedent and the current lack of concrete information, you can hardly assume the instance cluster will not cost everyone extra dosh or a ton of saved up TP if you have that.

[Gomar_Eldar]

Level cap increase to 85 is free.
Mounted combat is free.
Epic quests are free.

The only thing we get with purchase of this "expansion" is a quest pack. And 2 trait lines for war-steeds, which I don't think is enough to call RoR an expansion.

[Vandervahn]

I think you´re lumping things together a bit there. The things you name are, yes, free, but they still constitute expansion content. But Turbine chooses to make this available for free - which many other games dont. That was and still is commendable.

Again, the pricing/content relation is a different matter.

[StavroMuellerBeta]

A precedent of sorts is that VIPs/Lifetimers that bought RoI with TP had to buy Draigoch separately for more TP, while those that used cash for RoI had Draigoch included. (Something they were conveniently quiet about while lots of people bought TP on a special offer they were planning to use for RoI).

They made it very clear before RoI launch that the quest pack and the raid were two completely separate purchases. I'm not sure that an official announcement and multiple confirmations made more than two weeks before launch counts as "conveniently quiet".
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ine-Point-Cost

[Mark_J]

They made it very clear before RoI launch that the quest pack and the raid were two completely separate purchases. I'm not sure that an official announcement and multiple confirmations made more than two weeks before launch counts as "conveniently quiet".
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ine-Point-Cost

I wouldn't call it 'conveniently quiet' I would call it ambiguously convoluted. The subsequent 51 pages of confused (and irate) players in that thread you linked would tend to bear that out...

I think you and many others are hanging themselves a bit too much on that instances thread. Having to pay extra for them, one way or the other, is s**t. The price of the whole expansion is worse.

But:
In the end what matters is the gameplay experience. Turbine says a new form of endgame is coming. Now, they´ve apparently spent considerable resources into this mounted combat, And Rohan is the only place you can do it... so my best guess at the moment is that there will be a considerable amount of endgame content focused on that. Not to mention, theyare confident enough in their new stuff to charge such a never-before seen premium for it. We can only hope that it will work out enjoyable. Because if it is not, its gonna be a boring time (probably less than the RoI delay though - though I, in fact, enjoyed the skirmish raid frenzy and hunt for worn symbols for a while).<snip>

This is a good point.

Ironically enough Draigoch was Turbine's last attempt at a rather 'different' type of instance, they STILL haven't been able to fix that one. I have no confidence they can make mounted combat work well enough to be exciting and fun. At the very least with mounted combat being the only thing they are trying to sell for $40 they have to prove to me it's worth it. I certainly don't believe anything they say has crediblity anymore thus in my opinion as it stands today RoR is certainly not worth buying.

Remember Mirkwood? At the time most of the players thought that expansion was too small and Turbine agreed by charging a smaller price. Mirkwood had a nice group of Instances, new areas, quests AND a new gaming system in Skirmishes. Compare that to Rohan, well there really is no comparison the two are no where near each other...