RoR pre-order FAQ ommision: Please explain

[Mark_J]

Thanks for posting.

The main question though is: you say the IC will be available in a MAJOR UPDATE after the expansion. Content updates are free to VIPs. Is major update a content update? Or has its own category?

+1 for catching that subtle terminology as well.

Discussing pricing is one thing, informing the VIPS if there is a 'new' type of update we won't get for free is an entirely different matter.

[Cindir]

Can someone explain this to me:

Digital River has a 30-day money back guarantee.

Look at this from Digital River/Turbine Store:
"What is your refund policy?
The Turbine store by Digital River offers a 30-day money back guarantee."
http://store.turbine.com/store?Actio...eID=turbine#q1

So how can you not be eligible for a refund? Is that not what a 30-day money back guarantee means? It is defined on Wikipedia as: "if a buyer is not satisfied with a product or service, a refund will be made."

How can they refuse a refund?

[PoeticNightmare]

Uh oh ..... She just said "major update" whereas sapience previously referred to it as a "regular content update"


lol i don't mean to nitpick but..... that doesn't mean it's different somehow, with regards to the terms of VIP, does it? I swear I'm not trying to drum up more conflict here but after all this chaos, it's all a bit confusing. We've had updates that were considered major before right? And those were free...I think?

[gildhur]

However, as I have said before and I will say again, we are just not currently discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at this time. When we can discuss the pricing of the instance cluster, we absolutely will start answering questions on it. Until then, the only information we have right now is that the instance cluster will be coming out in a major update after the expansion.

Why would you refuse to answer a question that no one has asked? We're not asking what the price of the cluster will be. We're only asking whether VIPs will have to pay for it. Why can't you answer that question very simply and plainly?

[Cabbus]

"Major update" would make it even more unlikely that it's free to VIP players in my opinion. But I think it will be the same for a regular update also for VIP. But that is just my opinion based on what they have done since the last $30 pay expansion.

[Cabbus]

I agree with all this. There is even far more than this that you get nickel and dimed for. Yet they have supporters on these forums who actually think the VIP points that people get each month, that is actually paid for out of their monthly fee, covers all this. What a joke.

I'm not really sure why anyone is surprised about this.

They overload us with a different barter token for every damned thing, which does not go into our "Barter Wallet", naturally, but instead eats up limited (and expensive) storage space in vaults. We expand our vaults with in game coin and then TP to support this, and then they "fix" the barter wallet... for a price, now it accepts barter tokens! Well that's brilliant, a TP price for something to do what its name has always implied. And people defended that decision tooth and nail.

Every event has tons of cosmetic items but your wardrobe holds what? 30? (Mine does, I don't recall if I've upgraded it or not) with each expansion to the wardrobe costing TP, Shared vault? TP, unless you're ok with never passing around those bind-on-account items that have been added since the only free option (mail) is not possible. Storage space in general is being used as a revenue stream pure and simple, this game has the most limited storage space of any game I've ever played. Knowing how MMO players can be with hoarding stuff, and especially how long term players tend to amass stuff they want to keep, Turbine knows very well what they're doing with this, and refuse to increase storage limits because then maybe we wouldn't pay so much to expand it.

They've removed the ability to skip the intros and slapped a price tag to it, they've removed the ability to unslot legendary items (as I've heard) and slapped a price tag on it, they have added Tomes as very rare drops that require the previous version to be applied first. Either you farm forever in the hopes of getting the one you need, or you shell out some cash to buy it from the store.

They have gated progression through festivals but allow you to unlock additional attempts through the store as well. Skill deeds can only advance by x per day... unless you pay up.

I have seen absolutely nothing added to this game since I've started playing that has been added without the apparent intent of driving us to the store to buy TP.

That's not to say I haven't participated somewhat. I understand they need money to keep afloat, it would just be nice if they'd be a little... well, significantly less tacky about it. Adding helpful bonuses (i.e. the acceleration deeds) is great, creating a problem and then selling the solution as in the barter wallets is just pure greed honestly. As a community we've accepted that up to this point, there's no point complaining about it now, they're behaving exactly as we've been allowing them to.

[shann81]

Can someone explain this to me:
Digital River has a 30-day money back guarantee.
...
So how can you not be eligible for a refund? Is that not what a 30-day money back guarantee means? It is defined on Wikipedia as: "if a buyer is not satisfied with a product or service, a refund will be made."
How can they refuse a refund?

There were several threads with refunding and how to do it. Problem is that they have been recently closed & removed without explanation. I won't write it here because I don't want this thread to be removed too..
Great eye sees everything..

[NukeTheLag]

That is completely untrue. I closed the FAQ thread because it was suppose to not originally be open. We'd rather have questions and discussion occur in the many other threads here in the forum rather than all being jumbled up in that single thread. I stated that in my closing post in that thread.

However, as I have said before and I will say again, we are just not currently discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at this time. When we can discuss the pricing of the instance cluster, we absolutely will start answering questions on it. Until then, the only information we have right now is that the instance cluster will be coming out in a major update after the expansion.

I'm sorry, but just who are you trying to kid here? When Ford Motor Co. produces a new car, McDonalds introduces a new hamburger or whatever, the pricing of the new product is built into the business model long before it is actually sold to the general public. It is simply preposterous that no one at Turbine/WB has any price in mind for what the instance cluster is going to cost. Quite obviously, you guys know what you are planning on charging the customer. So why can't you simply come out and say it?

Specifically, are VIP/Lifetime members going to have to pay additional money, on top of the expansion, to access the instance cluster? It is a simple yes or no question. It has been asked numerous times on these forums in the last 5 days or so since Turbine announced that its original advertising for the RoR expansion was essentially fraudulent. It should be clear that a major portion of the customer base is concerned that they are being sold a pig in poke. They want some clarification.

Given this, I see only two possibilities:

1) People are being paranoid. If this is case, the logical thing for Turbine/WB to do would be to quickly quash any rumours and make clear that VIP/Lifetime members will get the instance cluster for no additional charge so as to maintain goodwill.

2) Turbine/WB is in fact planning on charging VIP/Lifetime members additional money. In this case, it makes sense from a business (albeit, not a moral) perspective, why Turbine/WB would keep being cagey on this issue.

Perhaps there is a third possibility, but I simply am not seeing it. What is undeniable is that it is long past time for a straight answer to this simple question.

[AngeleDei]

I almost...almost.... paid the $70 as soon as I got the email though, but thankfully I was a little short of money so held back.

Now it appears that I would have bought a quest pack and some fluff. As a lifer I can get all that for free. Why did some muppet decide to release this early and unfinished? Why couldn't you wait until the instances were ready or was it because you want us to spend even more money on two "different" (not) things rather than one? Why else was the hurry?

For less than $70 I can get Guild Wars 2 which is a brand new, fresh and vibrant game, rather than just a new area with some poorly explained new combat and some hinted at "repeatable content" (and am I ever sick of repeatable content).

Been here since beta, bought every expansion to date. Will not be buying this. I'll mothball my account and play my old games and see what happens with this. I "had" hoped that Warner Brothers taking over might have breathed new life into the game, but it appears that its just breathed more greed.

Why no one thought to tie the game in with the forthcoming Hobbit movies by actually moving us through Mirkwood to the Lonely Mountain is beyond me... unless they dont see this game as their future. Which is probably true as the lack of advertising I see anywhere in stores (and lack of any hard copy expansions) means less and less people will join and they have to leech as much as they can out of us while they still have us. They could have done so much with this over the next two years with all the press the films are getting and going to get.

Well, I for one have had enough. I'm a devoted Lord of The Rings fan. Always have been. I am no longer sure if I am a Lord of the Rings Online fan. Mind you, I'm a lifer, so what do they care? They got their money out of me...they wont be getting anymore.

Oh and their "communications" sucks, as does locking threads that aren't that comfortable for them to see on the front page of their new "baby". I dont blame Sapience et al as they can only spout the party line, but they need to tell (as I am sure they do) their masters that they have some p*ssed off people and that they are losing or risking losing quite a lot of them. This game is 5 years old. Its past it. They "should" be looking after their remaining loyal customers more carefully, because why would more come now? But instead they appear to leeching all they can out of us before we leave...

[Koomaster]

Given this, I see only two possibilities:

1) People are being paranoid. If this is case, the logical thing for Turbine/WB to do would be to quickly quash any rumours and make clear that VIP/Lifetime members will get the instance cluster for no additional charge so as to maintain goodwill.

2) Turbine/WB is in fact planning on charging VIP/Lifetime members additional money. In this case, it makes sense from a business (albeit, not a moral) perspective, why Turbine/WB would keep being cagey on this issue.

This I feel is a pretty accurate scenario.
The fact they aren't doing #1 means they are definitely doing a #2 here.

The question has been asked numerous times. It's one thing to not include the IC in the price of the expansion for f2p/premium like myself, but you really should let your VIPs know they are getting access to it for free. And if you aren't giving it to them free... well I guess you do what you are doing now; silence.

[Sanlie]

""There are no plans to release an instance cluster simultaneously with the expansion. However, an instance cluster is planned for release in a following update."

We will be releasing an instance cluster after the update comes out. However, we have not discussed the pricing of the cluster at this time. The mention of the cluster being free to players who have purchased Rohan was incorrect, and that's what we have removed. There is no instance cluster coming out simultaneously with the expansion.

We will be discussing the pricing of the instance cluster at a later time.

Costs the new Instanz Cluster "Money" or "Turbine Points" ? And is this Cluster Free 4 VIP Players ?

[Jeffor]

Why would you refuse to answer a question that no one has asked? We're not asking what the price of the cluster will be. We're only asking whether VIPs will have to pay for it. Why can't you answer that question very simply and plainly?

This. Just answer the question already. :|

[LordVoronturEU]

As it currently stands, it looks like I'll be playing Rocksmith from October.
Especially if Turbine are going to start charging VIP/Lifers for regular content updates.
Since the coming Instance Cluster is not part of RoR, it's a regular content update.
Should we VIP/Lifers be charged TP for that, I think there will be a rather large backlash.

[nubcat]

As it currently stands, it looks like I'll be playing Rocksmith from October.
Especially if Turbine are going to start charging VIP/Lifers for regular content updates.
Since the coming Instance Cluster is not part of RoR, it's a regular content update.
Should we VIP/Lifers be charged TP for that, I think there will be a rather large backlash.

Not sure that ftp and premium players should be paying extra for it (the IC) if they pre-purchse RoR either, tbh (my opinion being that an instance cluster should be part of the expansion). The only logical explanation I can come up with for releasing the instances seperately is so they can get extra money from the freemiums. Although that sounds evil, and I don't want to think they'd stoop so low

[Thornglen]

Not sure that ftp and premium players should be paying extra for it (the IC) if they pre-purchse RoR, tbh (my opinion being that an instance cluster should be part of the expansion). The only logical explanation I can come up with for releasing the instances seperately is so they can get extra money from the freemiums. Although that sounds evil, and I don't want to think they'd stoop so low

Some of the problem I see are:

1. Turbine has something in RoR that takes the place of an instance cluster (new repeatable content), but they have provided no details on it yet. It might be the best thing since sliced lembas and we'd still have no way of comparing it to what we normally expect or judge its value for ourselves.
2. They told us about an instance cluster that is not part of RoR before they had finalized anything about it and before they had finished giving information about the expansion itself. Even without the FAQ slipup, this would have been very confusing.

Basically, I think RoR will be a good expansion. I think the artists and developers put tons of work into it and it will be a fine addition to LOTRO. Unfortunately, I can't support Turbine yet because buying any version of the expansion is, in my mind, supporting the current poor communication. I don't like doing things this way, since I do believe Turbine is a good company as a whole, but there is something rotten somewhere and they have to find it/fix it before it spreads.

[semjaza]

Some of the problem I see are:

1. Turbine has something in RoR that takes the place of an instance cluster (new repeatable content), but they have provided no details on it yet. It might be the best thing since sliced lembas and we'd still have no way of comparing it to what we normally expect or judge its value for ourselves.
2. They told us about an instance cluster that is not part of RoR before they had finalized anything about it and before they had finished giving information about the expansion itself. Even without the FAQ slipup, this would have been very confusing.

Basically, I think RoR will be a good expansion. I think the artists and developers put tons of work into it and it will be a fine addition to LOTRO. Unfortunately, I can't support Turbine yet because buying any version of the expansion is, in my mind, supporting the current poor communication. I don't like doing things this way, since I do believe Turbine is a good company as a whole, but there is something rotten somewhere and they have to find it/fix it before it spreads.

Very good way of putting all of it. I still like this game, I'm excited about the expansion overall... I'm just unhappy with the handling of all of this stuff right now. I don't know what's going on, but something was screwed up. No one can pretend this pre-purchase launch hasn't been far more confusing than it ever had to be.

I don't personally feel I need to know the TP prices of every last thing or else, but the lack of details and contradictions have been very difficult to wade through. I just went ahead and closed my dispute with Digital River. I don't even want to deal with it anymore. It's just been frustrating.

[frayedknot]

I have posted in another thread about my current feud with Turbine over the refund I feel is deserved due to a company error.

This is the response I received, and shows just how well Turbine values their fans.




"Greetings,

Thank you for your response.


Your help request has been escalated to a supervisor.


The Knowledge Base FAQ article that you referring to is not advertising for the product, and the instance cluster was not included in the list of features included with and agreed to at the point of sale for the expansion.


We do apologize for any confusion, but as previously stated, we are unable to assist you with a refund of your purchase as the product has already been applied and you have successfully received the benefits of your order.


Please note that if you do chose to dispute the charges that Turbine will take action against the account, which may include banning the account.


If you have any additional questions or concerns, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist further. Please do not update the default subject line in your reply.


Thank you for contacting the Turbine Account Management Team.


Turbine, powered by our fans."

[Podraig]

The Knowledge Base FAQ article that you referring to is not advertising for the product, and the instance cluster was not included in the list of features included with and agreed to at the point of sale for the expansion.

Thats interesting, kind of means that whatever was advertised when your purchased the product was what you payed for, so does that mean anything turbine changed since selling a product is grounds for a refund, because thats not what the player paid for when the purchase was made! kind of a double edged sword there.

Nearly sure my moria box set says on the back legendary weapons that grow in power as my hero advances..however I did find that stopped growing in power when I was level 56..so why did it not grow after that? box said it would grow in power as my hero advanced, my hero did not stop advancing at 56..can I get a refund pls not what I paid for.

[Ebyl]

Celestrata, there is something I think you should note about this thread (and so many others on the forum) and relay to those higher on the food chain at Turbine.

The players of this game no longer trust Turbine or anything Turbine says. I'm included in this group, and I've tried for a long time to keep some hope alive that Turbine would learn from its mistakes. But obviously those making the decisions have not, and I'm beginning to think never will.

Look at all the comments and tone they take. Turbine has completely lost the trust of a vast number of its players. And that is the real problem with the game - not so much the game itself (which does have issues, just like every other game out there), but what Turbine has done to lose the trust of its players. Or more to the point, that it has done nothing whatsoever to earn back the trust of the players.

There are several anticipated games on the horizon, and each of them are being developed by groups that appear to be making a much more obvious effort to communicate and keep the trust of their potential playerbase. And many of the already established games are doing a far better job than Turbine at keeping the trust of their current players.

This is why you're losing players and will continue to do so. We do not trust you anymore and you're doing nothing to earn back that trust. There are plenty of other options out there, and many of us will be more than happy to go play a game where the group in charge seems interested in earning and keeping the trust of the players.

[BigLotroFan]

An advantage to paying with credit cards is you can dispute the charges with them and let them do the fighting for you. Seems pretty shady on Turbines part. If the FAQ was a mistake then you either honor for those that already purchased or provide them a refund. That is the only FAIR thing to do.

[josh13333]

Celestrata, there is something I think you should note about this thread (and so many others on the forum) and relay to those higher on the food chain at Turbine.

The players of this game no longer trust Turbine or anything Turbine says. I'm included in this group, and I've tried for a long time to keep some hope alive that Turbine would learn from its mistakes. But obviously those making the decisions have not, and I'm beginning to think never will.

Look at all the comments and tone they take. Turbine has completely lost the trust of a vast number of its players. And that is the real problem with the game - not so much the game itself (which does have issues, just like every other game out there), but what Turbine has done to lose the trust of its players. Or more to the point, that it has done nothing whatsoever to earn back the trust of the players.

There are several anticipated games on the horizon, and each of them are being developed by groups that appear to be making a much more obvious effort to communicate and keep the trust of their potential playerbase. And many of the already established games are doing a far better job than Turbine at keeping the trust of their current players.

This is why you're losing players and will continue to do so. We do not trust you anymore and you're doing nothing to earn back that trust. There are plenty of other options out there, and many of us will be more than happy to go play a game where the group in charge seems interested in earning and keeping the trust of the players.

Absolutely.

I have zero problem with any game content. I loved RoI's content, and I bought the Great River and really enjoyed it to. Likewise with previous content. Except for those darn trollshaws.

Celestrata has also always been helpful in the past, and I realize that you are only relaying information given to you now. Don't shoot the messenger as they say.

But I, like others, lost trust in whoever is making the decisions behind the scenes. I'm sure I would enjoy the rohan content, but the price and lack of traditional mmo expansion features has made me decide not to purchase it.

[Murky_Majare]

...

"Greetings,

Thank you for your response.


Your help request has been escalated to a supervisor.


The Knowledge Base FAQ article that you referring to is not advertising for the product, and the instance cluster was not included in the list of features included with and agreed to at the point of sale for the expansion.


We do apologize for any confusion, but as previously stated, we are unable to assist you with a refund of your purchase as the product has already been applied and you have successfully received the benefits of your order.


Please note that if you do chose to dispute the charges that Turbine will take action against the account, which may include banning the account.


If you have any additional questions or concerns, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist further. Please do not update the default subject line in your reply.


Thank you for contacting the Turbine Account Management Team.


Turbine, powered by our fans."

So basically Turbine just threatened us with revenge if we try in any way to dispute our RoR purchase?

Nice to know.

[AngeleDei]

"Greetings,

Thank you for your response.


Your help request has been escalated to a supervisor.


The Knowledge Base FAQ article that you referring to is not advertising for the product, and the instance cluster was not included in the list of features included with and agreed to at the point of sale for the expansion.


We do apologize for any confusion, but as previously stated, we are unable to assist you with a refund of your purchase as the product has already been applied and you have successfully received the benefits of your order.


Please note that if you do chose to dispute the charges that Turbine will take action against the account, which may include banning the account.


If you have any additional questions or concerns, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist further. Please do not update the default subject line in your reply.


Thank you for contacting the Turbine Account Management Team.


Turbine, powered by our fans."

That line about "if you continue arguing, we will take your toys away from you", utterly, utterly sucks. You are entitled to request what you believe to be your statutory rights without receiving threats in return.

That is it for me and this game. I was doubtful (very) about buying RoR before this when a friend who I was talking to told me about the whole instance debacle, but with this, they can go and screw themselves. Oh and you can ban my account if you don't like my tone or whatever else you decide you dont quite care for. I'll go and play Guild Wars 2 when it comes out. I'm deleting LOTRO from my machine next.

Really, really poor customer service from Turbine and quite shocking. They will never get another cent from me.

[Elvenbeast]

Sorry to go off-topic, but I'm pretty sure I had a critical but light-hearted post in this thread and it now seems to have been erased. I guess Turbine can't handle criticism any better than they can handle communication.

"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

[DelgonTheWise]

Sorry to go off-topic, but I'm pretty sure I had a critical but light-hearted post in this thread and it now seems to have been erased. I guess Turbine can't handle criticism any better than they can handle communication.

"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

If you didn't get a PM from a mod, also could easily be the wonderful world of "Beta". Hard to distinguish between moderation (won't say censorship, it is their bat and ball, their forums) and a fairly buggy forum implementation.

That said, this letter is really pretty heinous. I suggest the poster (and anyone with a SERIOUS beef) try the BBB route, as BBB complaints seem to get resolved. Those who bought based on the FAQ have a real complaint. The FAQ was an official publication of Turbine, and it seems to me they are answerable for it...