What justifies calling this an "expansion"?

[Tarmas_Eldar]

At the same time, couldn't you argue that $10 to $15 a month you pay for VIP covers that? Unless you're Lifetime in which case I'm just jealous lol

I am a lifetimer, I said so in the quote you used

And yes, exactly the same argument applies to a monthly VIP subscription.

[UnlikelyBeing]

This happened after Moria. This didn't really take off until the Lone Lands revamp. The landscape quests for the most part did not vanish unless the zone was revamped, except for some few cases. Dol Dinen is still a fellowship area today.

You missed the point completely. My point was that Moria was a step away from having 6-man landscape content - none of my post was relevant to revamping old content.

I can't think of any explicit three man content from before Moria. Parts of Goblin Town were doable in a small fellowship as well as some other areas depending on your skill, but you weren't limited to three people max. The first 3 person instances were in Eregion which was released simultaneously with Moria.

The first 3-man content was actually introduced with the Epic line prior to Moria (I guess you could count Goblin Town, but since its open-world instance its open to interpretation). However my point was that Turbine made their first major step towards landscape 3-man content in favour of 6-man landscape content. I am of course referring to the original Moria and not the revamped version (which I haven't seen). For example, there was a Morrovail area that had several 3-man quests. As far as I can recall there was no open landscape 6-man content in Moria.

We actually had trait lines before Moria except that most players ignored them. Ie, there'd be something called "line bonus" as I recall.

The 'line bonus' you were referring to were a completely different concept to the trait lines introduced with Moria and in no way negate the point that an entire new trait system which was far more dynamic and diverse was introduced with the expansion.

Also note that much of the stuff you describe was available to all players even if they did not buy the expansion. All players had to use the new trait system. All players would start to lose access to landscape group quests. All players got access to Eregion and three person instances.

Everything I mention in my post was available only to players who bought the expansion except for the bit I described below where I state that it was part of a free content update which was released at the same time;

I would also like to note that at the same time as Moria's release Eregion was released as a free content update for subscribers which included some interesting daily instances and the 3-mans that have since been made classics as well as additional storage space (in game not store) and a complete revamp of the combat mechanics. If I remember correctly there were also changes to inventory introduced at this point to help us with bag space.

I also acknowledged that the trait lines were free and why I still included them as part of the paid Moria package;

*While the trait system was implemented (by necessity) across the game irrespective of whether the player had the Moria expansion I am still including it as part of the paid for product since players could not access the capstone traits or open up more than five trait slots without buying the expansion - so what they had access without purchasing was still very limited.

With free to play as well as change to the game style though this is all irrelevant. All players get their level cap raised, all players get access to all zones, all players get access to the epic quest line in all zones, all players get legendary items, all players get all new game systems. So what "expansion" means in this new model has changed quite a lot since nothing is gated behind expansions anymore.

I disagree. Yes, the F2P has changed the game style, however this does not impact on what those who purchased Moria at the time of its release got for their money *at the time*.

What expansion means in the new model is 'quest pack' and therein lies the problem. With Turbine's new model of F2P and giving so much free to all players, they have made genuine expansions as a product to be purchased impossible. If they are not gating anything other than quests (and even instances as plenty of quest packs include instances) then they need to accept that the expansions they release are free content updates and give the contents to VIPs as part of their subscription and allow premium players to purchase via the store (or with cash - I have no strong feelings on the 'how').

So really, it's more a question as to whether or not these instances will be free to VIPs... which I guess could be inferred, but no one knows yet. Even though I'm not a VIP, I would hope they were at the very least included for VIP subscribers. It only seems fair.

They certainly should be free to VIPs but so long as Turbine are sitting on the fence and unwilling to confirm they will be free to VIPs I won't be counting on it. Turbine have done this before - they are just waiting to see what they think they can get away with and I find that really disturbing. There should be no question as to whether the instances will be free to VIPs.

[ostlix]

Hi,
Not sure I'm asking this in the right spot. I'm a new f2p player. How much money is it going to cost me to play in Rohan? I am thinking about playing a hobbit hunter if that makes any difference.
Thanks in advance.

[UnlikelyBeing]

Hi,
Not sure I'm asking this in the right spot. I'm a new f2p player. How much money is it going to cost me to play in Rohan? I am thinking about playing a hobbit hunter if that makes any difference.
Thanks in advance.

I am pretty sure this isn't the right spot You say you are a new F2P player, are you new to lotro as well? If so I would completely ignore the RoR expansion and just start out with exploring the game which is the original SoA content (and some of the best content in the game). The starter areas are completely free so by the time you hit the lonelands (also free) you will have a better idea of what you want from the game.

You may want to look into Steam as I hear they have some kind of starter pack. Otherwise I would recommend subscribing for a month just to get the perks such as extra bag space - you keep these on active characters after you drop your subscription.

I am sure someone can provide some suitable links to forum threads aimed at new players or websites with guides for those wanting to go the F2P route in the game

[ostlix]

Thanks. While new to this game, I'm not new to the f2p market. I'm just trying to estimate the cost before I make the time investment into this game. Don't get me wrong fighting in helm's deep is exciting, but I'm sure I can't get there for no money. I'll look into the steam game. Just seems like a lot of people complaining about money makes me weary to get invested in a game. From what I've heard about this game is that you basically run out of free content around level 20. So I need to know how much it costs to get from 20 to helms deep in Rohan. How many expansions do I have to get? What other things will I *need*?

[warriorpoetex]

Thanks. While new to this game, I'm not new to the f2p market. I'm just trying to estimate the cost before I make the time investment into this game. Don't get me wrong fighting in helm's deep is exciting, but I'm sure I can't get there for no money. I'll look into the steam game. Just seems like a lot of people complaining about money makes me weary to get invested in a game. From what I've heard about this game is that you basically run out of free content around level 20. So I need to know how much it costs to get from 20 to helms deep in Rohan. How many expansions do I have to get? What other things will I *need*?

You will not be able to play the whole of the game without spending some money or investing a monolithic amount of time grinding Deed after Deed on multiple characters. The level cap is free, the epic story line is free and does provide a tour through most of the current content, limited to quests involved in the epic quest lines. The starting zones are free, as well as the first zone above Lone-lands.

You can only really advance so far playing totally free. Virtue slots, etc will need to be unlocked via TP to further customize your character; even though virtues are nice little additions to a character and not really required to be successful at playing a class.

Even with Turbine's faults that do annoy me, they offer probably the best in-game method to earn points to unlock content either account wide or character based. Far as cost to get to Rohan from 20 to destination ... your best bet is going VIP, but if your time is limited; just purchase what you NEED as you go. The cost will vary depending on your ambition to grind TP. Some packs are roughly 595 or so TP, so 8 to 10 bucks per quest pack ... larger ones cost more, but they have sales all the time. If you play and really love the game, go for the 50 dollar expansion deal ... the free Path of the Fellowship quest pack will help lower the cost in the end for opening zones. Plus Rohan is included and the massive mounted combat which I believe will be the focus for end-game content ... more skirmish like or phased open world events vs the closed instanced ones which is an exciting change of pace to me.

If you just want a cheap quick rush to end-game to get goodies and shinies, then I'd just sub to Rift or WoW for a couple months; a lot of sparkling stuff in those games. (Even tho I will say Rift is my guilty pleasure and my 2nd MMO I play ... and Trion is one of the best Developers around).

The Instance Cluster will be free to VIPs, of this I have no doubts ... but won't be free to Free/Premium which is fine because when you elect to not subscribe, you accept the costs involved ... period. This isn't a browser game you play on Facebook.

If you really want the full experience, subscribe and buy the expansions as you reach them ... a 3 month VIP is only 10 bucks a month ... well worth it.

[ostlix]

So 10 bucks a month for sub and I'm good? I'll have to buy instances and expansions at 40 dollars a piece. So I'm still looking at couple hundred dollars to play this game to level cap. Thanks for your response.

[UnlikelyBeing]

So 10 bucks a month for sub and I'm good? I'll have to buy instances and expansions at 40 dollars a piece. So I'm still looking at couple hundred dollars to play this game to level cap. Thanks for your response.

It really depends how fast you level through to cap and how many alts you want to level through. It will also depend on how much you want from the store - most players find themselves needing a fair bit of storage, more so if they like to craft. If you take advantage of sales on TP and sales on store items that will cut the cost a fair bit. One point to note is that while VIP has its advantages you lose most of them the moment you drop your subscription as you are mostly 'renting' access to the content on this basis.

Anyways, have sent you a forum mail, happy to chat further, but I think this is very off-topic to this thread

[warriorpoetex]

So 10 bucks a month for sub and I'm good? I'll have to buy instances and expansions at 40 dollars a piece. So I'm still looking at couple hundred dollars to play this game to level cap. Thanks for your response.

No, if you sub you get all of SoA and update content free during the course of the VIP. Moria, Mirkwood, Isengard and Rohan you'll have to pay for but if you save the TP you earn while VIP including the free 500, by the time you get to Moria you can buy it with what you earned in-game or only have to drop maybe 10 bucks. Mirkwood is also very cheap ... Isengard and Rohan are the only two you'll have to shell out some coin for as you would with any expansion of a game you play. But that is later once you are at 65 which if you don't power play can be a lengthy and enjoyable trip.

[knowfere]

Turbine should be planning a FAQ update with new information.

Really? Because everything I see from them is wrong, misrepresented, vague, missing entirely, avoided, misleading, and/or confusing. They will not be forthright and truthful. I do not support nor condone that type of behavior, so they will not be getting the money I wish to be giving them.

[semjaza]

I am a lifetimer, I said so in the quote you used

And yes, exactly the same argument applies to a monthly VIP subscription.

Haha, oops. Sorry about that

[Maximilan]

While additional landmass for the game is an expansion, it is free for anyone to use. The RoR they are selling is a quest pack and any other name is misleading because it's still just access to do the quests in the 'expansion'. There are the freebies that come with pre-purchase, but the long term exclusivity of them is doubtful. The appearance may be exclusive but their purpose will be repackaged and sold at the Lotro Store. This is marketing and Turbine/WB intend to make the most out of it.

Last year this time I wondered what was going to happen with the RoI and whether I should purchase or not - had I spent additional dollars I would have the instances that came with it. I thought about dropping my VIP and just buying the 'expansion' but I decided since I was VIP that I'd just use my TP's and purchase it from the Store, which I did. What I bought for darn near 4000 pts was a quest pack for the areas, which included everything I can tell but the instances.

So here I am again and Turbine says we'll give you more area to run around in - but if you want to do anything but kill monsters you need to ante up. I can spend the TP's again for the quest pack since I'm still VIP. But I will stop my VIP status this fall, they have diluted it so much it's worthless now. In fact Turbine should end subscriptions all together and just let the player's income (spending) determine what area they can play, horse they can ride or character they can play. Maybe they already did that and I missed the memo! MMO games and more importantly gameplay should be fair to all the players, not based on what they can spend. It's unfortunate that this business model is deemed successful, unfortunately for me I see this as the beginning of the end. Too bad, cause I've spent about the last ten years playing Turbine's MMOs.

[josh13333]

Well, now I can call it an expansion. Thread over I guess

[Mark_J]

Well, now I can call it an expansion. Thread over I guess

I would agree albeit still very overpriced IMO.

Now if only they could get all aspects of the expansion together so they can be released at the same time and we don't have weeks/months to wait for the Instances we would almost be back to pre-F2P days...

[UnlikelyBeing]

Well, now I can call it an expansion. Thread over I guess

*laughs* I still call it a glorified quest pack. What are you paying for in this expansion that isn't included in the Enedwaith quest pack?

[josh13333]

*laughs* I still call it a glorified quest pack. What are you paying for in this expansion that isn't included in the Enedwaith quest pack?

Well, more quests for sure.

Enedwaith had something like 85, if the Rohan ads are accurate we should be looking at something like 300-400 quests.

Plus probably 5-6 instances. And mounted combat. And the new end-game stuff.

Wow, it feels good being a fanboy again

[Lohi]

So 10 bucks a month for sub and I'm good? I'll have to buy instances and expansions at 40 dollars a piece. So I'm still looking at couple hundred dollars to play this game to level cap. Thanks for your response.

You get all quest content up to level 30 or so for free. After that point you can buy with TP that you have earned (probably not enough to get a quest pack for free but enough to discount it by a lot). Or you can instead tr to make your way to level 40ish and then buy a quest pack. Some even manage to get from 30 to 40-50 and then buy Moria. You really don't need to buy everything.

You can play all of the epic quest line for free though. There is a very large number of quests all around level 50 and I really think you can easily get from 48-52 just from doing epic quests.

A good move is to purchase one month only of subscription at some point, which will unlock a lot of stuff for the active characters at that time (people used to purchase old boxed copies of Moria on ebay very cheaply to do this).

[Hrodberht]

*laughs* I still call it a glorified quest pack. What are you paying for in this expansion that isn't included in the Enedwaith quest pack?

Mounted combat. War steeds. 10 more levels. New skills. As you have pointed out, nothing is free, so these things are in fact part of the expansion.

[OldMadeOfLions]

You can play all of the epic quest line for free though.

It's true, and I like to think this is one of the things that makes our game special. But make no mistake: the Epic Story is still part of the expansion, even though you can play the Epic without buying it. The production values and the bells and whistles and the scope of the Epic all get to be bigger because it's associated with the expansion. If we weren't doing Rohan as an expansion, the Epic wouldn't be able to have as much in it.

MoL

[ostlix]

So no - help this town (hub) for a bit then move along epic quests?

[OldMadeOfLions]

So no - help this town (hub) for a bit then move along epic quests?

That was a design choice to try and interweave the Epic more thoroughly with the landscape content, but it turns out people seem to do that anyway. Calling attention to it just confused you guys, it seems, so you probably won't see that structure in Rohan.

MoL

[Thornglen]

That was a design choice to try and interweave the Epic more thoroughly with the landscape content, but it turns out people seem to do that anyway. Calling attention to it just confused you guys, it seems, so you probably won't see that structure in Rohan.

MoL

I'm sure it wasn't the case, but a big problem was the perception that the intent was to take content out of the free epic and put it into the paid quests. I know there was plenty later down the line, but hub after hub of "do these other quests, then move on" was, I think, more frustrating than it was confusing.

Confusing came later when the epic and the landscape quests suddenly went off in different directions and the story timing seemed to be off. That's another post, though. I am really looking forward to seeing how things are structured for Rohan quests.

[OldMadeOfLions]

I'm sure it wasn't the case, but a big problem was the perception that the intent was to take content out of the free epic and put it into the paid quests.

It wasn't the case. Since the previous expansion had been Mirkwood and that was before Free To Play, I had assumed that the Epic Story in Isengard wasn't going to be free either, and I designed it as I always would have. The 'do quests here and then move on!' structure was in there before I found out the Epic was supposed to be free; it definitely wasn't a calculated thing.

I like the Epic being free, since it means the maximum number of people get to see it. I just didn't know it was going to be before we were well into work on Isengard.

MoL

[Thornglen]

I like the Epic being free, since it means the maximum number of people get to see it.

Agreed. And glad the changeover to free did not affect the priority to tell a good story.

[Kerin_Eldar]

It wasn't the case. Since the previous expansion had been Mirkwood and that was before Free To Play, I had assumed that the Epic Story in Isengard wasn't going to be free either, and I designed it as I always would have. The 'do quests here and then move on!' structure was in there before I found out the Epic was supposed to be free; it definitely wasn't a calculated thing.

I like the Epic being free, since it means the maximum number of people get to see it. I just didn't know it was going to be before we were well into work on Isengard.

MoL

So Turbine's internal communication is as pitiful as it is with their customers.

Of course, this was the excuse given for the LI debacle, one group did communicate effectively with another and so what was created wasn't what the designers intended.

/sigh