The Death of group play? (Open tapping/contribution discussion)

[Crell_1]

Perhaps 'tapping' has been redefined to only include damaging attacks and heals on those who do damage, however. I can't be sure, but those would be easy things to test.

According to developer posts over the beta currently HEALING and DAMAGE are the only thing that should apply tapping.

If the mob is hitting on you, you've probably done a minimal amount of damage reactively or by auto-attack to get contribute status, but the taunt itself doesnt give you credit.

I hope that helps you make sense.

Yes. I know its not clear in the Dev diary. We raised this point in the Dev Diary thread at the time, but no one from Turbine felt the need to confirm our statements in public.

[podgie_bear]

Yeah...

What this thread is about - fellowship members not getting credit for kills - has nothing to do with the premature complaints that were raised weeks ago, most of which centered around, "I don't want people hitting my mobs."

I understand that you don't like open tapping and that it's a bit of a pet issue for you, but this thread isn't a complaint about what you want it to be a complaint about.

Hey, I pay to play this game, I get a voice on this forum, and just because you decide to cherrypick bits of my previous posts and ignore all that I said about what it would to to group play, that doesn't negate what I actually said about it destroying fellowship play. Go back and read them again to see for yourself. If you can't be truthful about my posts, don't mention them at all! I said this would be disastrous for fellowships and would make it no longer worthwhile even forming them if you get rewarded for solo effort only. Ok, so now we find out that healing may count, but what about all the CC and debuff skills our classes specialise in specifically for group play?

[Lurkerinthemist]

All this was brought up on the forum weeks ago and anyone who dared say that there would be problems with open tapping was shouted down and told not to be selfish as this would be great for everyone.

Everything I have read blends two equally important issues around open-tapping:

1) Shared credit and loot for contributing damage or heals on a mob - some don't like it, some do and most of the arguments are around this one point.

2) Loss of shared credit and loot for non-contributors within a fellowship - I've read forum posts in beta where people asked about it but I have never seen a response from a Turbine employee. This was not specifically highlighted in any official Turbine communication that I have seen - people can quibble that it was implied, but really a change as significant as this to a 5 year old base game mechanic should have been communicated differently. If anyone can point to a source where this was specifically addressed, please post it.

The point I'm trying to make is let's not blend the two discussions. Let point #1 stand on it's own and be argued, debated and for what it's worth, petitioned over separately. It is a highly contentious topic worth discussing further.

I think we need a blue name response to #2. WAI? Yes or no. Then the debate can continue separately about that response.

[Hikerdude2010]

I haven't gotten into the game yet, so I don't want to jump to conclusions...

However, if what the OP is describing is indeed happening in game, then I wholeheartedly agree with him. My LM will be my first toon to run the new content so I guess I'll find out soon enough.

As an LM I have no problem using DPS as much as possible along with my debuffs and cc... when running solo or in a 3-man. And as a mostly soloer I can certainly see the benefit of open-tapping, especially in areas where mob density is low or boss mobs are slow to respawn.

But if I'm in a 6-man or a raid, DPS is not my job. That's part of what being in a fellowship is supposed to be all about, everyone doing a specific job or set of jobs, to contribute to the success of the group. If open-tapping means that only dps or healing parts of the fellowship get the rewards, then it seems to me that open-tapping is NOT working as it should. It may be WAI, but not as it should, and I would certainly hope the devs would look at this again and consider revising how open-tapping works within a fellowship.

[podgie_bear]

Everything I have read blends two equally important issues around open-tapping:

1) Shared credit and loot for contributing damage or heals on a mob - some don't like it, some do and most of the arguments are around this one point.

2) Loss of shared credit and loot for non-contributors within a fellowship - I've read forum posts in beta where people asked about it but I have never seen a response from a Turbine employee. This was not specifically highlighted in any official Turbine communication that I have seen - people can quibble that it was implied, but really a change as significant as this to a 5 year old base game mechanic should have been communicated differently. If anyone can point to a source where this was specifically addressed, please post it.

The point I'm trying to make is let's not blend the two discussions. Let point #1 stand on it's own and be argued, debated and for what it's worth, petitioned over separately. It is a highly contentious topic worth discussing further.

I think we need a blue name response to #2. WAI? Yes or no. Then the debate can continue separately about that response.

I agree wholeheartedly. Point one is a pain in the butt for some players, (me included), but can be worked around.

Point 2 is a real big problem, either Turbine screwed up here big time and it needs fixing asap, or it is intended and Turbine is intentionally dismantling fellowship play and concentrating on solo play. Which really need to be confirmed one way or another even more urgently.

[Tailborn]

In my opinion, Open-tapping should work pretty much as described in the Dev diary. As long as you contribute in some way towards the kill, you should get rights to it.

If not then you shouldn't. Obviously this isn't how everyone else thinks and maybe Turbine don't either. So I would go ahead and guess that it's a bug.

However I have been grouping all night and I've barely noticed this, as a healer I can just throw out a shout when I have time and voila, I get xp!

Just my 2 cents for what they're worth.

-TailyB

[Hikerdude2010]

Everything I have read blends two equally important issues around open-tapping:

1) Shared credit and loot for contributing damage or heals on a mob - some don't like it, some do and most of the arguments are around this one point.

2) Loss of shared credit and loot for non-contributors within a fellowship - I've read forum posts in beta where people asked about it but I have never seen a response from a Turbine employee. This was not specifically highlighted in any official Turbine communication that I have seen - people can quibble that it was implied, but really a change as significant as this to a 5 year old base game mechanic should have been communicated differently. If anyone can point to a source where this was specifically addressed, please post it.

The point I'm trying to make is let's not blend the two discussions. Let point #1 stand on it's own and be argued, debated and for what it's worth, petitioned over separately. It is a highly contentious topic worth discussing further.

I think we need a blue name response to #2. WAI? Yes or no. Then the debate can continue separately about that response.

I would be completely happy with the point 1 if they would include other forms of contribution to the fellowship. For instance: include debuffs and any form of cc. Also does supplying power to other team members also count the same way that healing does?

[Anavalar]

Seems that many are still under the impression that not only buffs but heals are not given credit in this system. I can't imagine how anyone who has read any of the dev articles could think that.

It's going to change group strategy for sure. We're going to see red/blue running around the landscape rather than red/yellow. I'm for giving it a try before making alarmist "end of group play" type statements. Past experience of the aftermath similar QQing indicates to me that either we get tweaks in the next couple of patches or players will find a groove within the new parameters that works for them.

Am I mistaken or isn't open tapping something that takes place within the mounted combat zone?

[hucklebarry]

Seems that many are still under the impression ....

'

This is why I don't like the web, twitter, facebook and/or any other social networking for announcements. Use them, sure, but officially everything should be delivered to the customer. The launch menu and email (in game and external) should be notifying customers of changes like this. A great many people spend their time in game and don't use external sources. In game is where their information should be.

In another MMO, they flashed red billboard text in game announcing how an upcoming change would affect things so that people could make a planned decision. Emails were sent, the log in space was utilized, etc.

I suspect we will see lots and lots of complaints about mob tapping as the general population learns of the changes.

[Shrelana]

Whoa, I can't believe people are this dense...

The Champ/Burg example illustrates it perfectly. The Champ raging blades everything to death while the Burg is plinking away at one mob. Champ gets credit for all the mobs he hit, Burg only gets credit for the one mob he was able to attack. Or maybe it's two people taking on two different mobs. Again, what is the point of grouping now?

A terrible oversight that has no justification.

I will start this by saying I don't necessarily like this open - tapping system, however, shouldn't this burg be working on debuffing mobs while the champ is blendering?? I would think a burg could cycle through all the mobs debuffing all of them in the time it takes the champ to kill more than one or two (assuming a pull of 4 to 6)?

Edit: OK, I can see now that buffs are not giving you experience, but a few of the debuffs I have on my burg do damage (so dps the mob)...

I do think that someone buffing/debuffing/CCing need to get experience too, though...after all, you are helping to bring down the mob.

[Hikerdude2010]

Seems that many are still under the impression that not only buffs but heals are not given credit in this system. I can't imagine how anyone who has read any of the dev articles could think that.

I just reread the dev diary that talked about this. "Contributing is defined as having done damage to the monster or healed someone who has done damage to the monster." I didn't see where it mentioned anything about other forms of contribution, like buffs or debuffs.

As I'm still at work, I'm not able to get in game and check this out just yet. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

[Nefarioux]

This is extremely bad.

I'm a founder and never really say much on changes but this one is not WAI.

Tapping is for NON GROUP or NON FELLOWSHIP play.

If 2 people are in a fellowship and you have to kill 10 x whatever mob I can't believe they have changed it so each person in the FELLOWSHIP has to hit the mob to get the credit. As a champ I don't want to sit around wait for my fellowship friend to sit there puffing and panting hitting buttons like an overworked secretary while I hold back on raging blades until he has managed to tap all the mobs so we can both get credit while we are in a fellowship!!!

What sort of mishap is this?? Turbine get a grip and sort this one out.

I may as well not form a group and happily rage blade away on my own. Which dev had this great idea? Sack him or her.

This is ridiculous. It must be a bug if not then you seriously need to make it a bug.

[Pyroburn]

My biggest problem with it is the fact that say me and my wife play. She is a hunter, she can kill just about anything before it gets to melee range for my champ (I MIGHT get a bow shot in) or burg (no ranged attack at all)... Also on my champ, I could grab like 10 mobs and hope she hits them all before I kill them all, so I don't die...

Sorry, but I don't think as far as the group mechanic this should have changed...

And for the record, addle would not tag a mob, and neither would champions challenge..

[Iorothiel]

For all the people not seeing it:


Bob and Joe are in a group. Bob and Joe both have a quest to kill 17 Thingummys. Bob kills a thingummy. Joe does not get credit for his quest, because he didn't hit the Thingummy, even though they're in the same group.

This, as you may well know, is not how grouping works.

Now, I play a Loremaster. Most lormies questing tend to set everything around them on fire. This will not be a problem for my lormie. However, I also have a burg. Burgs have...about two aoe skills max?

Now, I don't like questing alone. Not for it being difficult, but because I'll get bored incredibly easy.

Definitely a bug, and a rather horrid one at that.

[Lestache]

According to developer posts over the beta currently HEALING and DAMAGE are the only thing that should apply tapping.

If the mob is hitting on you, you've probably done a minimal amount of damage reactively or by auto-attack to get contribute status, but the taunt itself doesnt give you credit.

I hope that helps you make sense.

Yes. I know its not clear in the Dev diary. We raised this point in the Dev Diary thread at the time, but no one from Turbine felt the need to confirm our statements in public.

That makes sense. Well, I mean that I understand what you're saying - whether or not it's "sensible" is another discussion.

Thank you.

(On a personal note, I can confirm that "Unspecified patch error." does not seem to constitute 'tapping' a mob.)

[FuzzyWabbit]

Still waiting to log in ... 9hrs later ...

Well from the sounds of everyones posts, the open tapping system is not welcomed. I too see a huge flaw in open tapping that is simalar to the 4 tanks and a healer approach of gaining xp - tap the mob and when the original tapper dies go and kill it yourself because it is almost dead (I really wish I had a chance at beta to see this stuff). Not that it will happen always, but there is that potential to happen that way. So a lazy player could simply tap mobs on the fly to get xp and credit - not my idea of fair at all.


*hackers can make time release viruses, but major corporations overload thier systems*

[Eliel]

I have to agree with the general sentiment here. I'm not even concerned about the buffing and the healing, I'm just concerned about AoE damage vs single-target damage. It's going to cause XP disparity in groups that try their hardest to avoid it. If this is still going on in an instance, you could wind up unable to complete the quest to kill 10 rats, because there were only 12 rats in the instance and you missed dropping shots on 3 of them because the Champ was anxious to go all AoE.

As has been said, whatever the dev diary said, it did not say there was going to be a change from the current fellowship tapping mechanic, even though everybody asked in the thread that immediately followed. Based on the way things have always worked in-game until now, it was not unreasonable for us to suspect that when it came to tapping, the same fellowship rules that had always applied would continue to apply: that fellowships are treated the same as single-players when it comes to tapping.

Yes, as long as players are aware of it, there are ways they can work around it. But do you really want players deciding their attack strategy based on this? Do I want my Burg focusing on debuffing and CC, or do I want him making sure to get a hit on every mob so he gets credit? Do I want my Guard focusing on tanking the big nasty boss while the rest of us kill adds, or do I want her kiting the boss around while trying to get tags on all the adds?

This needs to be corrected, please.

[paebrain]

The idea of a fellowship is that everyone can contribute. The idea of different classes is that people can contribute in different ways. This mechanic says that some contributions are more important than others.

Try this count: one boss, five adds. Tank takes the boss and mini heals the tank. Champ and hunter team up on the adds (champ AOEs and hits more than the hunter), then come back to finish the boss.

Champ: 5
Hunter: 4
Tank: 1
Mini: 1

Really?

If this is indeed WAI, it is the end of the game for me.

If anyone can contact a Blue Name, it would be lovely to have this clarified.

[Macroscian]

I'm sure this tapping/credit thing is different in a raid situation

I guess here ~

Because as a hunter, cappy, lm, mini, burg, guard sometimes you have a goal such as 'hold back your cooldowns and wait for one spawn to cc/kill or one corruption to appear that must be removed instantaneously' rather than standing still AOEing mobs.

I can AOE on hunter but it's not my job to grab random agro, to the contrary I need to focus attention to not overwork heals or use up someone's combat rezzes.

[Macroscian]

Do I want my Burg focusing on debuffing and CC, or do I want him making sure to get a hit on every mob so he gets credit? Do I want my Guard focusing on tanking the big nasty boss while the rest of us kill adds, or do I want her kiting the boss around while trying to get tags on all the adds?

Haha yes - thanks for the chuckle!

This is the main thing.

Already reports of useless gamers trying to get others to kill for them. Working on the assumption that 'everyone is playing nice' seems not so good. Rather, there's an exploit-hungry community waiting to see how this can be used - and they're actively experimenting with it.

[Thorgrum]

In my opinion, Open-tapping should work pretty much as described in the Dev diary. As long as you contribute in some way towards the kill, you should get rights to it.

From what I have read and a PM to a friend who tested, its working exactly as it was described in the dev diary. People choosing to ignore facts is nothing new on the lotro forums, and is possible the diary was wrong. However taken literally its working exactly as intended and vetted in a 12 page discussion.

In the end game region after RoR being in a group isnt enough to get credit you have to contribute to the kill (heals count).

Should it be that way? Thats a different discussion but I cant see how people proclaim this is a bug with any certainty at all. Words do have literal meanings.

[ArturSzT]

I play as LM with my main character. I have just recently hit lvl75 and experienced some hard instances. My fellows are expecting me to do my job, which is:
-anti-stun - boy you should hear the complaints if I miss 1 sec of protection...
-wound taking
-corruption removing
-mez critical adds like healers, running messengers

AND IF i have the time... throw in a little DPS but that's the least of my concerns.

Playing like that will grant me nothing further on. Most of the time it keeps me quite busy to do the stuff the fellows need from me.

Now I have two options:
-spam burning embers/sticky gourd and do the rest only after that, making all a lesser priority
or
-stop playing the LM

Since I am trying to get in the game for 7 hours (checking from time to time) I could not experience this personally, but if I understand the things right something is just screwed up very bad...

[Defiant1]

The idea of a fellowship is that everyone can contribute. The idea of different classes is that people can contribute in different ways. This mechanic says that some contributions are more important than others.

Try this count: one boss, five adds. Tank takes the boss and mini heals the tank. Champ and hunter team up on the adds (champ AOEs and hits more than the hunter), then come back to finish the boss.

Champ: 5
Hunter: 4
Tank: 1
Mini: 1

Really?

If this is indeed WAI, it is the end of the game for me.

If anyone can contact a Blue Name, it would be lovely to have this clarified.

If this is actually happening (haven't been in a fellowship to see), then I'm going to be up in arms as well. Can we please get a blue name to comment on this. Pretty please, I know it's a busy day but this is pretty important imo. As for now I'm going to chalk it up to being a bug that will eventually be fixed.

[CameronB1987]

There is a big problem with this tapping system. Most of us are just now seeing it, as we start to play the expansion. There are many who say, well, this is in the dev diaries, it's been posted, it's working as intended, why are you complaining now? We are complaining NOW, because most of us are people who have jobs, families, lives. We don't have time to peruse the forums and read every detail of an upcoming expansion. We experience it when it comes live, when we get a bit of free time to play. That is why there is Beta, feedback, and an opportunity for these implementations to be tested. And the tapping system, as it is implemented within a fellowship, is not a good idea. It's wrong. It needs fixed. And someone needs to address it to us common folk, who don't have the luxury of 24/7 to explore beta/diaries, etc.

[Vilost]

hrm

sounds like we may well be having to go through a couple more iterations of this idea - or simply, deal with the traditional idea of "group" being translated into "everyone in your area"

I would prefer to do the latter.

That is, however it's supposed to work in LOTRO, I'd rather see it as it worked in Tabula Rasa. You're simply grouped by default (in effect); everyone in an area got additional xp, credit for kills and loot (which admittedly was simply auto-delivered so it wasn't really that immersive). Overall it was a great idea because we were all on the same side. RoR seems a lot more like that. You don't officially 'group', you just run about with people in a lump (group). <shrugs>

Talking out of my hat since I can't really get in now, but just wanted to say: this doesn't sound like the end of grouping. Just the end of the 6 and under only group apparently. I love the idea in principle, but it will make a difference if open tapping means that a healer debuffer can't get correct credit as is being debated in this thread. But again, til I see it in action, I won't get too worked up yet...