The Death of group play? (Open tapping/contribution discussion)

[European1000]

Ok. I tried it yesterday, and I must say that open tapping is absolutely MADE for hunters, which is my main. Lots of fun, do ranged aoe to get points for everything within 40 m and sit back and enjoy while the melee classes takes care of the rest, right? Well. This is how it works now, but even how enjoyable it feels for a hunter, i also see some serious problems here. It's a game for all classes ofc. And the problem of tanks tanking adds while the group is on the boss may lead to him actually not completing the quest, right? (I seriously hope I'm wrong here) Buffers get nothing! Also very serious problem. On another note, there's absolutely no incentive for anyone to kill things too quickly now, as it doesn't matter if you let someone else hit it or not. You get all loot anyway, so there's a simple matter of friendliness and decency to allow someone nearby to tap your target too, so both of you can get the rewards. So why not let them? It gains you nothing not to let them hit your target! This part is, in my oppinion, a good thing, which encourages ppl to share. The problems I mentioned first have to be resolved though, since we really want our LM's to level too, and not having to raid twice because half the group hit the adds instead of the boss.

[JaironKalach]

. Groupers dislike this because certain classes (especially support/single target) are severely disadvantaged and don't get full credit from combat despite doing what they are supposed to do.

Although I've quoted Moonwalk, this is just a well worded distillation of the complaint we all have. I should say, though, "We all have had." I honestly no longer have this complaint. The time I spent last night was entirely within a fellowship. Yes, my fellows and I had to make some adjustments. But those adjustments were minor and they didn't ruin the fun at all. So, here comes a long-winded post of why I went from disliking this "bug" enough to want to step away (No, really... My kinship is the only reason I stayed) to not having a problem with it at all.

Although we are all coming at this from the perspective of how we have previously grouped, I think we should start, when talking about the "death of grouping" with the solo experience. After all, the entirety of PVE content in Rohan was designed for the casual solo player to be successful.

Solo
As a solo player, my experience is pretty much consistently this: "Beat monster to death, gain rewards." Rinse and repeat. This is my baseline, then. Since I'll have a mathematical comparison of effort to reward, my baseline average will be: For 10 swings of my sword, I get 1 kill towards my slayer deed.

Casual Grouping
The next level of play to talk about is Casual grouping, meaning not in a fellowship. So, someone else shows up in the area and we cooperate to kill mobs. Keep in mind that this person was out there expecting to do solo content as well. So, if they're an LM, they're not traited full CC. If they're a mini, they're likely to be in WS, etc.... In other words, they're in a balanced build expecting to do at least some damage. So now we're both out there doing damage and we decide to cooperate. Assuming that we are of equal skill level and cooperating well, the rate is now for 5 swings of my sword, I get 1 kill towards my slayer deed. Maybe, though, we're not really cooperating well and sometimes we're on the same mob, sometimes we're not, sometimes the other person AoEs and gets 3 kills to my 1... We can say that in this case, for 7 swings of my sword, I get 1 kill towards my slayer deed. In the end, though, I'm still getting gained efficiency, and I'm getting better efficiency if I'm working cooperatively.

Formal grouping, but not cooperating
Taking this to the next level, I might want to grab a friend and go out and kill things. We have a lot of fun together. However, in the past Lotro fashion, we each stay on our own mobs, and we just kind of chatter away. My efficiency doesn't improve at all. I'm still at 10 swings=1 kill towards my slayer deed. But, it is odd to me that we define this as grouping anyway. Honestly, neither is doing anything to aid the other in terms of game activity. It's just been a design assumption that people in a fellowship are working cooperatively. That assumption has been removed and in Rohan the rules are: the game doesn't assume you're working cooperatively unless you tap the same monster. This makes sense to me. But we still have the complaint about the yellow traited LM, etc... So lets move on to the next category....

Formal grouping, strictly holding to your roles.
Here's where it seems to be getting really painful for some folks. This is where I really was upset to be honest. I was even frustrated at the start of the evening yesterday. See, as a guard in group content I may never do a single piece of damage. I spend most of my time throwing taunts to maintain aggro. Imagine my annoyance when I used my single target shout (Fray) to pull a mob and my friend annihilated it and I didn't get any credit. But, over the course of the night, I adjusted. At the end of the evening there were 5 of us in fellow: 1 guard, 1 cappy, 1 burg, 1 mini, and 1 RK. Again, keep in mind, we were out there doing solo content. The group was for convenience, not necessity. Noone was traited full CC. There was no reason to be. So, the five of us marched into Dwalung hole. Now in dwalung hole, there is a room with about 8 of the buggers and a reasonably fast respawn rate. As soon as we hit that room, I charge in and grab the mass up and ball them together. The group just annihilates the critters, green goo flying everywhere!!! I'm laughing pretty hard at this point, so I run out to get more. Quickly I hear over TS "They're all respawning.... They're ALL respawing.... They're ALL RESPAWNING...." So I hurry my butt back in there and round them up and we splatter another point. Now at this point, of course, we've annihilated the quest, but suddenly we've got our eye on the slayer deed. Soon folks are running out into the halls, bringing back trains of the critters, and then we tap 'em and mow them down. What was my effort rate? About 2 swings of the sword and I'm getting 5 kills towards my quest/deed. If I position right, I can raise that number by ensuring my 2 AoEs touch more mobs. The burg likely wasn't having as much success. He probably was at a 1:1 ratio. (1 swing = 1 kill) Although, in terms of time spent he was ahead.

Okay.... I tend to ramble, so I'd better sum this up. Despite going in to this with dismay over this particular aspect of the open-tapping design, my opinion is now this:

In Rohan solo content (the only content we have with these rules right now), fellowship play is different from what we've learned. It requires more cooperation and coordination. We will have to make adjustments to play under these rules. However, I believe that this does not mean the death of grouping at all. By increasing cooperation, coordination, interaction, I believe that this makes grouping more meaningful than it has ever been in the past.

I'd rather have thoughtful responses based on experience than flames or wailing, but people will do what they will do.

[JaironKalach]

Turbine needs to say whether they intend to aim the game at being solo only, in which case open tapping works but support classes are no longer needed and fellowships are discouraged. Or if they made a mistake and will be looking to rectify it, in which case fellowships will be given full credit to each member, as was the case before RoR and we can sit back and wait (with various degrees of patience).

This might be a TL;DR of my previous post so I'll go ahead and respond here:

Turbine stated fairly clearly clearly during beta that the entirety of Rohan content, with the exception of certain warbands, should be able to be completed by a casual solo player.

[Thorgrum]

I'd rather have thoughtful responses based on experience than flames or wailing, but people will do what they will do.

Its a bad idea, but not a bug (at least when I checked the known issues thread it wasnt on it). This feature was talked about a lot on the forums as well as in beta, im certain this issue came up.

So the thoughtful thing to do is start a petition for a change to the feature, not have a pissing match over specifics in a thread titled "the death of group play?". The open tapping rule shouldnt apply to fellows, Ive done several slayer deeds in groups and it worked just fine as is.

The open tapping rule should apply to solo toons only.

[Bezmer]

This might be a TL;DR of my previous post so I'll go ahead and respond here:

Turbine stated fairly clearly clearly during beta that the entirety of Rohan content, with the exception of certain warbands, should be able to be completed by a casual solo player.

There is a difference between being able to complete something solo and discouraging group play my making it difficult to obtain corresponding XP when in a fellowship.

[JaironKalach]

There is a difference between being able to complete something solo and discouraging group play my making it difficult to obtain corresponding XP when in a fellowship.

Yeah, I knew I shouldn't have posted a TL;DR.... Now go read the big post.

[JaironKalach]

Its a bad idea, but not a bug (at least when I checked the known issues thread it wasnt on it). This feature was talked about a lot on the forums as well as in beta, im certain this issue came up.

It was. As far as I know, though, it was all in hypothetics, not in practical usage.

There is a difference between being able to complete something solo and discouraging group play my making it difficult to obtain corresponding XP when in a fellowship.

I can't think of a single piece of Rohan content where you get less XP by being in a fellowship. I can't think of a single piece of Rohan content where you would ever not being doing DPS or healing. I can only think of a few pieces of landscape content in the whole game where you would not be kitted out for balanced play, and therefore doing damage.

[podgie_bear]

Yeah, I knew I shouldn't have posted a TL;DR.... Now go read the big post.

Instead of picking just half my post and misunderstanding the meaning, you could have read it properly. My post is not about whether Rohan can be soloed, but about discrimination against fellowships. At no time did Turbine mention that they would be positively discrimintaing against group play by only rewarding certain types of play within the group and punishing (not awarding xp/loot) to classes that play AS THEY WERE INTENDED TO BE PLAYED, namely using CC, buffs, debuffs etc. So Turbine do need to say whether this is intentional and whether this is what we can expect in the future. Because what will be the point of developing a support class for group play if it is going to lose out by being denied equal shares because it was doing what it was designed to do? We might as well delete our support classes and all roll DPS ones if that is the case, because group play really will be dead as regards working together as a team. All that will be left is a group of individuals trying to share rewards rather than helping each other.

[podgie_bear]

I can't think of a single piece of Rohan content where you get less XP by being in a fellowship. I can't think of a single piece of Rohan content where you would ever not being doing DPS or healing. I can only think of a few pieces of landscape content in the whole game where you would not be kitted out for balanced play, and therefore doing damage.

Then I suggest you look at different classes and their skills to see what support classes actually do! Unless you thinik that all those players who specialise in CC, Buffs and debuffs are useless and not wanted? It's like watching how a soccer team works, each position does its bit to help the team, they can't all be goal-hangers waiting to score, or the team would lose every week.

[Bezmer]

Yeah, I knew I shouldn't have posted a TL;DR.... Now go read the big post.

I've read the long post and it has nothing to do with the issue. The goal of a MMO group is always the same: to tackle a task with efficiency that amounts for more than the sum of its parts.

If you want to exchange witty banter or hang out, that's not an issue that's related to grouping. Fellowships and chat channels exist for a reason. I am (and so I believe was the other poster) strictly talking about how you handle game content here.

[Bezmer]

Then I suggest you look at different classes and their skills to see what support classes actually do! Unless you thinik that all those players who specialise in CC, Buffs and debuffs are useless and not wanted? It's like watching how a soccer team works, each position does its bit to help the team, they can't all be goal-hangers waiting to score, or the team would lose every week.

Not to mention off-healers and/or off-tanks that may be pinned on a single mob all battle, while clearly maximizing the ability of the rest of the fellowship to tackle the remaining crowd.

This is just not a smart MMO feature in any form or shape.

[Kerin_Eldar]

That was from the dev diary, what was your contribution to killing the monster?

In a group everyone should get credit, it's been like that since day 1, 'open tapping' should make no difference. In any case, the text you quoted was entirely alluding to soloing, and given that groups always got credit for a kill even if players in the fellowship didn't actually do damage, there was no reason to believe this new mechanic would destroy the whole basis of fellowship world play.

You're simply arguing for arguing's sake, and trying to make the OP look a 'whiner', fact is this is entirely hostile to grouping if the mechanic is WAI.

[JaironKalach]

Then I suggest you look at different classes and their skills to see what support classes actually do! Unless you thinik that all those players who specialise in CC, Buffs and debuffs are useless and not wanted? It's like watching how a soccer team works, each position does its bit to help the team, they can't all be goal-hangers waiting to score, or the team would lose every week.

Yeah, you don't get my point yet. I've been raiding and running group instances every week for the past 6 months. Noone loves having a cappy along on a run more than I do. I don't run ToO without two CC. I understand as much as anyone the vital role that these classes play in group content.

Currently, the only form of group content in Rohan are certain warbands. Period.

If I, as a guard, go into the rest of the content, expecting to tank only, I'm wasting everybodies time.
If someone, as a cappy, goes into the content expecting to focus on buffs only, they're wasting everybodies time.
If someone, as an LM, goes into the content expecting to focus on CC only, they're wasting everybodies time.

There is NO group content. I LIKE group content. I would ENJOY group content. But it's not there.

So, this scenario where you are trying to play the solo quests as if they are group content strikes me as completely nonsensical. Maybe you have a good reason to expect it. In my time playing, though, I've never seen it happen in other areas, and I don't know why we are trying to make a case to support it in Rohan.

[Kerin_Eldar]

So, this scenario where you are trying to play the solo quests as if they are group content strikes me as completely nonsensical. Maybe you have a good reason to expect it. In my time playing, though, I've never seen it happen in other areas, and I don't know why we are trying to make a case to support it in Rohan.

You're relative newness to the game is why you don't understand the issue here.

[Embolo]

So, this scenario where you are trying to play the solo quests as if they are group content strikes me as completely nonsensical.

This is the point!
Also +rep for your long post about your experience with open tapping.

[JaironKalach]

You're relative newness to the game is why you don't understand the issue here.

Appreciate the gently worded response. Could be. I think I get the problem, I just think it's a different problem than y'all think it is. I think the first problem to address is to put together content on landscape that is actually worth taking a diverse fellowship into. Then we can make the argument that the current open tapping implementation leaves players out.

[Thorgrum]

In a group everyone should get credit, it's been like that since day 1, 'open tapping' should make no difference. In any case, the text you quoted was entirely alluding to soloing, and given that groups always got credit for a kill even if players in the fellowship didn't actually do damage, there was no reason to believe this new mechanic would destroy the whole basis of fellowship world play.

You're simply arguing for arguing's sake, and trying to make the OP look a 'whiner', fact is this is entirely hostile to grouping if the mechanic is WAI.

Yes everyone in the group should get credit, like its been since day 1. Open tapping does make a difference, it did a month ago when it was announced, discussed and vetted in beta. Im not arguing to make the op look like a whiner he's accomplished that all by himself.

I pointed out facts, if they dont suit your position I get it. It's never a wise idea to proclaim someone's intent without first asking them. You look pompass (which isnt new for you anyway) and rather silly. As I said I dont need to make the OP look like a whiner, he accomplished that all by himself. I posted, reposted, and posted again the relevant dev diary items that pertain to this issue.

I do understand how the LOTRO forums work though, its analogist to putting your fingers in your ears and go LALALALALALALALALALALALALA!!! while someone is telling you something you dont want to hear, truthful or not.

[Bezmer]

So, this scenario where you are trying to play the solo quests as if they are group content strikes me as completely nonsensical. Maybe you have a good reason to expect it. In my time playing, though, I've never seen it happen in other areas, and I don't know why we are trying to make a case to support it in Rohan.

This is a discussion in principle, not a discussion about Rohan. Which is precisely why we need to know whether Turbine plans to continue with open tapping from here on, effectively turning the gameplay into a bastardized Diablo clone.

[JaironKalach]

This is a discussion in principle, not a discussion about Rohan. Which is precisely why we need to know whether Turbine plans to continue with open tapping from here on, effectively turning the game into a bastardized Diablo clone.

Then, in principle, I think, we agree. Although I would say it thus: any activity affecting a mob or affecting a player who is performing activities affecting a mob, should be considered a contribution. This doesn't matter if they are in fellowship or out of fellowship.

[Neumi]

I think the first problem to address is to put together content on landscape that is actually worth taking a diverse fellowship into. Then we can make the argument that the current open tapping implementation leaves players out.

Isn't it worth your time to play with your friends in a fellowship? Do you prefer that everyone of your friends plays on his own? Isn't FUN the one thing that's worth to have a fellowship?
I don't care about the landscape, I play with friends and my girlfriend as often as possible for the fun.

the new tapping system makes this a pain, espescially if you have ranged DDs in your group who can kill before you can reach the mob. You can't split up and kill everything around, but need to focus all on the same targets.

Yes the current open tapping implementation leaves players out.

[Trusilver]

Then, in principle, I think, we agree. Although I would say it thus: any activity affecting a mob or affecting a player who is performing activities affecting a mob, should be considered a contribution. This doesn't matter if they are in fellowship or out of fellowship.

I think it's humorous that most everyone here DOES feel this way and yet they are arguing about it. Such is the nature of the internet though... "we are all right, but I am RIGHTER than you so nyaaaaah!!!!1111one"

[Bezmer]

Then, in principle, I think, we agree. Although I would say it thus: any activity affecting a mob or affecting a player who is performing activities affecting a mob, should be considered a contribution. This doesn't matter if they are in fellowship or out of fellowship.

Right, except unfortunately it's not so black and white. My captain is off-tanking an elite, allowing the minstrel to concentrate on healing the rest of the group that's taking down the boss. You better believe I'm contributing to how effectively this boss is being taken down without landing a single hit or heal.

Ultimately, the tapping system was something that (wasn't) really broken. In any case, I'm hard-pressed to point to what they were trying to "fix" with this particular change.

[JaironKalach]

"we are all right, but I am RIGHTER than you so nyaaaaah!!!!1111one"

Well, it's true, you know... Well, about me, anyway. In fact, I'm the only one who's completely 100% right. ;-)

[koifishkid]

Its a bad idea, but not a bug (at least when I checked the known issues thread it wasnt on it). This feature was talked about a lot on the forums as well as in beta, im certain this issue came up.

So the thoughtful thing to do is start a petition for a change to the feature, not have a pissing match over specifics in a thread titled "the death of group play?". The open tapping rule shouldnt apply to fellows, Ive done several slayer deeds in groups and it worked just fine as is.

The open tapping rule should apply to solo toons only.

This basically sums up my feelings on the issue.

[JaironKalach]

Right, except unfortunately it's not so black and white. My captain is off-tanking an elite, allowing the minstrel to concentrate on healing the rest of the group that's taking down the boss. You better believe I'm contributing to how effectively this boss is being taken down without landing a single hit or heal.

Good point. Although I do struggle with the idea of this scenario being on landscape, I will grant you that should that eventuallity ever occur, the entire fellowship should get credit.... But.... If this is on a landscape, and someone not in the FP does the same work they should still get credit. So, that leaves a bit of a mess to sort out. Eventually, someone will have to pick an arbitrary rule. I imagine that right now, Turbine is using the threat table to sort out contributions. The activities that we think should be included are all activities that do not generate threat, I believe. This is likely why it wasn't fixed when we complained about it during Beta.