Forced emotes - worse than ever

[whheydt]

I've said it very, very, clearly....as of now Turbine considers it a fun part of the game.

That assumes facts not in evidence.

It doesn't matter what you feel or what I feel. It's all up to Turbine and ToS are dictated by them and the violations come from that.

Yes...and Turbine also provides a way to report harassment/griefing. Use of forced emotes can be reported as such. If Turbine gets enough tickets saying so, the word may filter up the food chain vigorously enough for changes to be made. (And in the mean time, if the same people keep getting reported, just maybe they'll be pulled aside and told to stick to the willing as targets and leave the unwilling strictly alone.)

Rule 1 of the CoC can be applied to anything it is so woolly. I could decide that a warden's shout ruins my enjoyment of the game, or the colour purple, or trees, and apply rule 1.

You can report those things if you think they violate rules. If enough people agree with you--and add their reports to yours--you may get Turbine's attention for a change.

Yes and no. I'd be happy with this as a first step in the right direction (assuming they greatly expanded the number of people who could be put on the list), but would still much prefer the opt-out toggle. The one situation not addressed by the /ignore option would be a character that you've never encountered before: that character could still target you with an FE before you have an opportunity to /ignore. In a group performance, three out of four band members may have that person /ignored but the 4th may never have encountered him, and the performance can therefore still be disrupted by the emote.

There is a work-around. It's an ugly one, on some levels, and it's one Turbine probably wouldn't like, but it's there.

Start a list of "known forced emote users" and circulate it. Anyone who wishes to pre-emptively put those people on ignore could use such a list to do so. What I would expect though, is that if anyone posted such a list in *these* Forums, the thread would be black holed very quickly.

Such lists would also be a source of abuse by maliciously adding people for reasons other than forced emote use.

If blocking forced emotes were to be added to /ignore, I would expect there to be immediate calls for a *greatly* expanded ignore list.

In terms of processor and database resources, I would expect an "opt out" toggle separate from the ignore list to be a better choice.

It does matter. Pranks are not part of the fun part of the game for some. Unless and until Turbine aligns itself with that notion, those who want an opt out will continue to advocate for one. The only valid reason not to implement an opt out is "Too complex to program correctly without hosing up 8 zillion other things."

Hence my periodic note that, if Turbine can not (your point) or will not implement an "opt out", then (and only then) forced emotes should be removed from the game, root and branch. (Including, by the way, the class based forced emotes.)

I only wish that were true. I sent two PMs to Sapience concerning an earlier thread on forced emotes. They were polite PMs asking for clarification of Turbine's policy on the use of forced emotes. Sapience didn't deign to reply to either of them. I know he's a busy guy, but frankly I think that's downright rude.

I've just sent Sapience another PM concerning this thread. If he doesn't reply in a few days, I'll post my PM as an open letter.

You might try Celestrata, who doesn't appear to be as busy as Sapience.

As for publishing a PM you've sent...you'll probably be okay doing that (as the person who *sent* it), but there's no guarantee that you won't get dinged for it.

I imagine there are only 2 things keeping an opt out out of the game: technical ease implementation and "someone important enough at Turbine thinks festival pranks are a real hoot of a great idea and how dare those killjoys not see the truth of it."

On the technical side...see my remarks above about a less desirable alternative.

On the social problem... About the only levers the players have are to make so much noise about it someone even higher up decides that implementing an "opt out" is the only way to shut up those that want it, and using the power of the purse--hitting Turbine's income and making sure that they *know* that's why they're taking a financial hit.

There is more than one way to make that financial hit. One is, of course, not spending any actual cash on the game, or even dropping VIP status. The others are indirect. Every post in every thread has to be at least glanced at by Forum Mods as part of their job. Lots of posts--and, specifically, lots of posts in controversial threads--chews up the mods time, time that costs Turbine money. Likewise, if you feel that you have been harassed, whether by one use of a forced emote or many, by filing a ticket you are eating up GM time. Granted, very little on a simple ticket ("Harassment by use of forced emotes"), but if enough people are doing that, it costs Turbine money. Unless Turbine is different from any other company that has a customer support group, there is analysis done on what types of tickets they get and what those ticket were submitted about. If there are *enough* such tickets, the word will flow up the food chain and the support department will start demanding a fix. In the mean time, the powers that be will understand that players are NOT HAPPY about the present situation.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Abiyah]

- a healthy dose of seeing the others side might help everyone.

It would seem to me that those of us who are asking for an opt-out toggle have seen the other side, and we didn't like it. To give the player base it's due as an intelligent one, I really doubt anyone is asking for something they have no negative experience about.

As far as founding common ground between players and it being as hard as threading a needle in the dark, the opt-out toggle overcomes that scenario. Do you have any, any at all, viable reasons for not allowing players to have a choice here?

[Isilmacil]

Well, i'm not advocating that these items/skills are meant to be griefing tools. I was merely saying not everyone uses them to harass others.
I personally wouldn't care if there was an opt out for these or not. If there is and it helps people who enjoy the game enjoy it more, good for them. If anything, my post was directed at what appears to me to be a huge over reaction from some. Perhaps its from my own experiences on my server, but when people use these items I never see anyone start to complain/get offended. And if it happens, the issue is resolved. So when it comes to those servers who have the events they do, I do understand how you can be annoyed.

Plus I'm sure some people do use these to grief, but not everyone. For me, I guess I just don't see how an action that causes a few seconds of delay can be seen as such a huge debate.
However, if there is an opt out that helps people cope with it, that's cool in my books.

[ShinryuLOTR]

I must admit I love to see when someone cuts all the hysteria and hyperbole and waffle and just cuts to the chase with some common sense +rep sir

Others have already covered it, but the issue with expansion of the ignore feature is that it doesn't really solve all that much of the FE problem. Sure it could potentially work okay if you're talking about well known repeat offenders and organized events where those involved create a pre developed list to ensure the likely offenders are ignored, but in any other case an expansion of the ignore function just isn't going to cut it. /ignore working on FEs won't work on first time FE users/abusers, low level/newly created alts, random deed grinders, random festival area visitors, etc. It will only actually work if you know ahead of time who's going to FE you or if someone uses an FE on you once and then sticks around to do it again (and you're not too busy actually playing the game to take the time to /ignore them after the first use).

Basically, I don't think anyone would really mind if the /ignore function did block FEs but the fact is it doesn't really address the FE issue at all. If you believe it does, then I'd say it's likely you're not actually understanding the problem.

[Dworin]

Thanks for proving the last point so well *shrug*

You're welcome. And yes, maybe it does push my buttons....for a few seconds....then that player is forgotten and I'm back to doing what I was doing.

Like that dwarf that griefed us at the BBB concert. I had my say, then he went on ignore, and the stuff that happened after, I didn't see. He did manage to make himself persona non gratis with a lot of folks who were there.

And when he BSG'd me again in Galtrev, I had my say, then went on with business as usual and him back on ignore. But he's one of the few people I even bother to say anything to. Ignore them and move on. I sincerely doubt he cares what I think of him, but I told him, anyway. Most importantly, I don't think about him very much at all. *shrug*

[gcpate]

Please give us an opt-out. Please.

[Damojo]

Finding it hard to believe that people would advocate hitting Turbine in the purse, over something like an emote, on a day like today.

Score 1, yet again for the "anything goes for me, but don't you dare use an FE on my pixels" crew.

[Dworin]

Finding it hard to believe that people would advocate hitting Turbine in the purse, over something like an emote, on a day like today.

Score 1, yet again for the "anything goes for me, but don't you dare use an FE on my pixels" crew.

Do you pay for products you are not happy with?

[manstan]

"Plus I'm sure some people do use these to grief, but not everyone. For me, I guess I just don't see how an action that causes a few seconds of delay can be seen as such a huge debate." Isilmacil

I consider being attacked a a regular bases in a nonPvP game a big deal. And how can some one running up to your character and slapping them down not be considered an attack on your character?

[Isilmacil]

I consider being attacked a a regular bases in a nonPvP game a big deal. And how can some one running up to your character and slapping them down not be considered an attack on your character?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khsN1iNaeCE Thats how!

But in all seriousness, I know the items are meant to be practical jokes, so I just chuckle.

[SalionOfBrothers]

Finding it hard to believe that people would advocate hitting Turbine in the purse, over something like an emote, on a day like today.

Score 1, yet again for the "anything goes for me, but don't you dare use an FE on my pixels" crew.

I highly doubt that the handfull of us that stopped giving money to Turbine over forced emotes had anything to do with the layoffs there (in just four weeks it will be one year for me). A lot more people stopped with the bad RoI release which still after a year has major bugs with some of the instances and the raid. I would be thrilled if I thought my humble effort to reduce Turbine's revenue over the forced emotes had an effect.

I got RoR with my turbine points earned ingame, so I am set at least until the next update and I think I already have nearly enough TP for that. Perhaps they should not sell expansions in the store for TP.

[manstan]

Sorry, I don't consider being slapped down a joke.

[Damojo]

I would be thrilled if I thought my humble effort to reduce Turbine's revenue over the forced emotes had an effect.

You'd be thrilled if your actions led to someone losing their job? Wow.

[Dworin]

Sorry, I don't consider being slapped down a joke.

Agreed. I do not, either.

[Dworin]

If you think someone losing their job is a worthwhile casualty of a campaign to remove something as earth-shatteringly irrelevant as a forced emote, you need to learn some proportion. That it's OK for your actions to cost someone their job, in fact more than OK you'd be "thrilled", but it's inconsiderate and rude to make a few pixels in a virtual world faint - such rank hypocrisy. I'm glad I don't know you in RL and never will.

I ask you again: Do you buy products you are unhappy with? If so, why? If not, then who, exactly, is being the hypocrite?

[SalionOfBrothers]

If you think someone losing their job is a worthwhile casualty of a campaign to remove something as earth-shatteringly irrelevant as a forced emote, you need to learn some proportion. That it's OK for your actions to cost someone their job, in fact more than OK you'd be "thrilled", but it's inconsiderate and rude to make a few pixels in a virtual world faint - such rank hypocrisy. I'm glad I don't know you in RL and never will.

If you knew me in real life or even in game, you would think I was the niceset person you ever met (at least all my friends and neighbors think so). As you can see I do not think of myself that way. Why? one may wonder. Somone needs help with something, no problem I will give you and hand. You need some mats, sure I got extra take em for free. My neighbor heeds help with a dead animal in thier yard and are over 70, sure I will take care of it.

Seems strange does it not. Things go that way until you screw me over, then all the "nice" goes away. I follow the rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, util they do something that really pisses me off, then treat em like ...

Why would I be thrilled, becuase corprate America has made it so that the only thing is money for them, and only money or the lack thereof can change anything. They made the rules. I am only following them.

[manstan]

"then we can move on to the next earth shattering non issue that's got panties in a bunch"

IN YOUR OPINION.

You opinion is nothing more then your opinion, it is moist certainly not a fact.

[Lestache]

"then we can move on to the next earth shattering non issue that's got panties in a bunch"

IN YOUR OPINION.

You opinion is nothing more then your opinion, it is moist certainly not a fact.

Underlined/italicized emphasis mine.

That may be favorite typo in quite some time.

[Dworin]

Yes of course they would, heaping a massive amount of financial misery on someone and their family is nothing compared to the rising tower of grief that having their pixels fall over causes, collateral damage I do believe they call it when someone hits a school with a missile.

Yeah, it totally sucks but that is exactly correct. Any business selling a product that people do not want does not stay in business long. We're supposed to buy products we are not happy with just so people can keep their jobs? I don't think so. And I'm fairly certain you do not, either. I'm reasonably confident that if you see a product you are not happy with, you don't buy it.

Some time back I went from VIP to premium, then changed my mind due to social reasons. Recent events over the past couple of months, however, changed my mind, and if Turbine wants player "A" to use my character as a target dummy, then Turbine can get its money from player "A".

I'll be more than happy to pay for the product. Re-up to VIP and go back to buying points. When the product becomes something I want to buy. Not until.

[manstan]

Underlinded/italicized emphasis mine.

That may be favorite typo in quite some time.

L if it's spelled right, I don't know. I've never seen words as the letters that make them up.

[SalionOfBrothers]

Yeah, it totally sucks but that is exactly correct. Any business selling a product that people do not want does not stay in business long. We're supposed to buy products we are not happy with just so people can keep their jobs? I don't think so. And I'm fairly certain you do not, either. I'm reasonably confident that if you see a product you are not happy with, you don't buy it.

Some time back I went from VIP to premium, then changed my mind due to social reasons. Recent events over the past couple of months, however, changed my mind, and if Turbine wants player "A" to use my character as a target dummy, then Turbine can get its money from player "A".

I'll be more than happy to pay for the product. Re-up to VIP and go back to buying points. When the product becomes something I want to buy. Not until.

The best thing about LOTRO, is I can use Turbine's servers for only the cost of the electrical power ot run my computer, while I play. As soon as Turbine makes is so I do not have to put up with the forced emotes, or at least lets me know they are working on it, I will be willing to throw some of the meager dollars I was spending on the game once again. Until then, nope, no way.

[Dworin]

Underlinded/italicized emphasis mine.

That may be favorite typo in quite some time.

The fact that you spelled *underlined* as *underlinded* is also classic. *smile*

[Rampagingdeath]

"then we can move on to the next earth shattering non issue that's got panties in a bunch"

IN YOUR OPINION.

You opinion is nothing more then your opinion, it is moist certainly not a fact.

Thank you so much /hug for taking the bait on that one and walking right into it - that's right, it is my opinion and nothing more - as is everyone elses that do exactly the same ALL the time and expect it to be taken as the word of god almighty himself.

Underlinded/italicized emphasis mine.

That may be favorite typo in quite some time.

I must admit it was a welcome moment of hilarity, I lol'd for real.

Yeah, it totally sucks but that is exactly correct. Any business selling a product that people do not want does not stay in business long. Wer'e supposed to buy products we are not happy with just so people can keep their jobs? I don't think so. And I'm fairly certain you do not, either. I'm reasonably confident that if you see a product you are not happy with, you don't buy it.

Some time back I went from VIP to premium, then changed my mind due to social reasons. Recent events over the past couple of months, however, changed my mind, and if Turbine wants player "A" to use my character as a target dummy, then Turbine can get its money from player "A".

I'll be more than happy to pay for the product. Re-up to VIP and go back to buying points. When the product becomes something I want to buy. Not until.

Well with people being laid off at Turbine this very day that attitude shows a stunning lack of compassion for your fellow man/woman, so very well done, I really hope everyone - especially the good folks at Turbine - see this and realise just what you're like, and with that you are going on forum ignore, anyone that can display that level of unpleasantness and justify it because his pixels fall over or get toasted now and again isn't worthy of my time, I hope you get your toggle, and if you do get it take a moment to look back at this thread and re-read it and pat yourself on the back with what you had to do to achieve it.

[manstan]

This may be off topic a bit but these companies have done it to them selves. They got this attitude of "get it out the door now, fix it later" and people are just fed with it. I and I am sure I am not the only one, wont buy any app or expansion till the .1 or even the .5 version. I've done far too much beta testing to pay for the privilege. These companies don't want to loose customers, listen to QA and quit releasing broken products with the expectation of fixing it later.
Personally I would rather wait 3-6 months for a good product, then buy a broken one now.

And I will absolutely never preorder again; $180 for a product that wasn't finished when released, then the company folded.

[Lestache]

The fact that you spelled *underlined* as *underlinded* is also classic. *smile*

Bugger. Good catch, thank you. Fixed.

(Sadly, my typo didn't make anything funny.)