Update 9 Loot

[twittfounder]

There's more to this thread than people complaining -- not mentioned yet are the addition of marks, medallions, and seals.

In an SG T2CM run yesterday, they seemed quite plentiful. We were suprised at how many of those were dropped in a run into BG last night. Plus, mobs are dropping coin and other random trash loots -- the silver and rewards seemed ok. People may be wanting teals/golds/etc. but there are addtional loots that may be more subtle.

Where things seem a bit light are in the expected bounties, relics, IXP runes. Let's look at a skraid for comparison: previously when an LT dropped something, or the final box/body/etc. everyone gets something "bounty on the blood rook" etc. Now, it seems much more thinned. MAYBE, more LT's overall have the chance to drop loots...but the data set is too small yet, and the expectations are definately not being met. The same seems true for SG and BG and the 3mans.

In other words: as players, the loot and the methods for distributing loots have changed. So we should be providing feedback on what we are expecting and what makes an experience worthwhile (or not worthwhile) for us. But there is more to it than appears on the surface. Plus: instances / situations change. Foundery had a guarenteed teal in the challenge box. The instance in Limlight Gorge did not. The new SG should probably be compared with Barrows / Fornost and other examples of scaling content...

Rockx has been doing a very good job communicating changes, thoughts, development. Lets provide him feedback that he can use!

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

2) It's a brand new system, so I'm exceedingly interested in player's feedback to help find that sweet spot between "we got nothing" and "we got everything". We all knew going into using Remote Looting in instances there'd be some kinks to work out.

This is mind-boggling.

I thought you at least had some vague idea of that "sweet spot" when you set all loot drops to 100% in Bullroarer. It was a nice way to showcase the new stuff. Abysmal way to prepare for launch when you have no clue where to start with loot drop chances.

You had Bullroarer for the testing and preview. For final pre-release adjustments. You could have started collecting your feedback three weeks ago. You could have prevented the instances launching with rubbish for loot. We could have helped prevent this "we got nothing" scenario.

Instead, we are supposed to do the testing from square one, on the actual servers. Until who knows when, for sufficient feedback to be collected and then applied to change the drop rates. 9.1? 9.2? Heck, Update 10?

I don't even know if the readjustment would hit the sweet spot. Maybe it will still miss the mark by a long shot. Maybe we'll end up having to wait for yet another update. How many iterations until we reach that sweet spot? And who knows whether the player bases idea of "sweet spot" will match up with yours or not.

I just don't know anymore. No expectations.

[Zerric]

I'm sorry but alot of thought and work did not go into this new looting system and reward items. You want better relics then solo NCF t1 or t2. It takes 15mins to solo now and you walk out with 10 t4 relics and 10 50k runes. You do a scaled SG t2C which is crazy hard and takes over an hour and you walk out with 4 bounties that you can get from solo skirms and 1 t4 relic if your lucky. I'm sorry Rock, your replies are nice an all it shows that least someone i reading about your messed up system, but in reality people play and pay for MMOs because of the reward gains from hard work. People do not pay to play to sit in bree or snowborn and watch glff. If the rewards are not worth it and Turbine isnt gonna fix it like always then people need to leave and find a new game to play.

I opened goblin T2C chest and got 1 bounty, finished SGt2C and for 4 bounties and a purple pocket that was worst then lvl 75 crafted. Which is odd because you can not do these scaled instances with 75 armor so why make the reward armor less then 75?

[ElricM]

I did all ofthe instances now. And all we got from them (all group members) was skirmish bounty and 2 or three relics. That's absolutely disappointing. And what i have seen from the loot, wich could be dropping, so far, is that almost all items are complete &&&&. Completely useless stuff.

[Kapt_Kaos]

Well, I had a nice, detailed feedback reply all typed up, but when I hit 'submit', the wonderful beta forums were nice enough to log me out. Upon logging back in and hitting the 'restore auto-saved content' button, it happily restored only the first 3 lines. /facepalm

So, here's the Cliff's Notes version of what I had to say:

All the way back to Moria, it's been a loot philosophy that instance boss chests drop enough runes/relics so that everyone in the group can have some, and then the other miscellaneous and rare drops in addition to that. During Mirkwood, it was even taken a step farther, and coded so that the runes/relics would simply be in the chest already flagged for every member of the group, and not have to be rolled on or distributed by the master looter. One of the better changes to loot distribution, IMO. This loot philosophy held true for instances, scaling instances, raids, scaling raids, and even skirmish raids.

Suddenly, in these new instances, we are no longer getting runes/relics for everyone. As a matter of fact, they seem to have been placed into the category of "rare drops". In one of the 3-mans I ran yesterday, we saw one relic for the entire instance. Other than that, it was bounties and maybe a purple item or two.

I'd like to see the philosophy of runes/relics for everyone put back into this new loot system.

[Wartober]

2) It's a brand new system, so I'm exceedingly interested in player's feedback to help find that sweet spot between "we got nothing" and "we got everything". We all knew going into using Remote Looting in instances there'd be some kinks to work out.

My suggestion is do not put vendor trash or LI Trash (low level relics, any runes) in the challenge chest class specifc loot tables. The system as you've designed it, assuming you don't want us to hate it, means we are going to have to run things less times to gain the gear we want. That's just something you'll have to accept, if you want to implement class specific looting.

Doing otherwise will just annoy us because then we've run challenge for "nothing". I completed three successful challenges last night and got what I considered absolutely nothing for it. Thought it was bugged, logged off.

[Neen_Eldar]

Are the teals randomly generated or are they from a loot table?

[DavadaOT]

Some results and then some comments

RESULTS

T1 Goblin King - So so Marks/Money. No items - Relics are MUCH worse than running lvl 65 Stoneheight

T2 Goblin King - So so Marks/Money. 2 purple items that none of us kept. Relics MUCH worse than running lvl 65 Stonehieght

T2C SG - LOTS of Marks/Medallions/Seals. Relics MUCH worse than running lvl 65 Stonehieght. 2 purple items that were worse than what we already had. The LM got the super rare Gold LM boots

COMMENTS
Completely random loot is NOT fun. Players say they like random drops but what they really mean is that they want to always walk away with something decent for their effort and then occasionally they want to get something awesome. (NOTE: Players don't really value marks that much)

Example of what players are expecting: You finish an instance on T2 challenge and

- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a nice teal
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a symbol
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets gold item
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a rare deco item
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a tier 9 relic
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a stat scroll
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a relic removal scroll
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a starlight crystal
- Everyone gets decent runes/relics/marks AND at least one person gets a rare recipe
- Etc

Players don't want COMPLETE Randomness.

Complete Randomness can be cruel.

Players want Random Niceness.

PS - You cant give this loot with no locks or players will just figure out the easiest instance and farm it to the exclusion of everything else. You have to give each instance a drop like this once a week (or twice a week etc) so players will have a reason to run all the instances (Like the current locks on skirmish teal drops)

Couldn't agree more.

The 'random' aspect of it could be moderated. For example, you could assign a value to various loot categories (say, 100 'credits' for a gold item, 60 for a symbol, 40 for a teal piece, 20 for a high-tier relic, etc, etc), and then make a rule that says, 'in a given boss fight, 120 credits' worth of loot will be distributed (the numbers are way off and subject to balance, of course: this is merely to demonstrate the idea).

Now take the same random distribution table you have now (which might mean that gold items are ten times rarer than teal, for example), and choose a single piece of loot out of this table. Most likely it'll be junk (purple or something), but junkier pieces tend to have lower value, so at least more of them would be distributed.

If a gold item is luckily chosen, it'll use up the majority of available 'credits' so that nothing else of high value could be selected. But it means that there's a well-defined set of rewards for the effort. Sure, sometimes people will get skunked with mostly relics and maybe only a single teal, but now there's a guaranteed set of rewards (kind of like the more regular rolled-on drops of old).

[interactii]

Two comments.

First the easy one. Why is some of the new gear identical to skirmish gear? I was all excited when I got a ring last night on Twins Challenge mode in BG, but it was the exact same ring I was wearing with a different name. That's not very cool. There are so many ring combos that are missing that I could list, I was really disappointed to see direct repeats.

Second, I dislike this new loot system, and let me try to convey why in an organized way. I ran SG last night T2 Challenge with my kin, and I got nothing besides marks and meds, which are really of almost no use to me. Other folks got symbols, relics, and some fair loot. No blue item drops for anyone. Later that night in BG, I got two symbols, the above earring and a star-lit, while others got literally nothing besides the bounty all night.

I still don't really understand all the goals of the new system, but it does eliminate the possibility of fair distribution of loot in a group. People are not going to give up their items for others. It makes people feel like they are wasting their time running things.

Everyone should get relics. The relics shouldn't be single T3 for 6 people, they should be T5 at least for 85 instances, and 5-6 per chest. Everyone should get IXP, because everyone needs it and its useful. One person should always get at least one blue item from a T2C run. Why is STH still being run? Because it had good loot. It was one of the last instances we had that did. Its an amazing grind to get relics up high now. How exactly are on level players who need IXP suposed to get it now? There's nothing on level that gives it. Bosses with no loot at all besides the bounty? No fun.

[Faitha81]

Good to see some interest from turbine in this thread!
Think I have done Nars peak T2 challenge + Goblin King T2 challenge before the quest got took down also did up to last boss in the scuttledells T2 , SG T2 challenge , Sword Hall T2 challenge , Dungeons T2 , have ahd seals skirmish stuff , a few ixp and couple settings and 1 ring from nars peak that wasnt up to much nobody i was with got anything to note either seems BG is the place to go we just need to get other lazy players out the moors fora couple hours !

[RockX]

Two comments.

First the easy one. Why is some of the new gear identical to skirmish gear? I was all excited when I got a ring last night on Twins Challenge mode in BG, but it was the exact same ring I was wearing with a different name. That's not very cool. There are so many ring combos that are missing that I could list, I was really disappointed to see direct repeats.

Getting a ring with identical stats from skraids would be an oversight on my part. Please feel free to bug it, if you haven't already.

[Southpa]

I think the disparity is a little off. You seem to either make bank or bust.
Twins challenge last night, I received a Tarnished Symbol and the earring Prudence. Some people got only bounties. It's not a big deal in the context of our kin since we're DKPing whatever people are interested in buying, but SG today as well - most of us got bounties while one person got an earring and a Crystal of Remembrance.

It seems like the roll is for a good chest or bad chest when it should be for each potential piece of loot independently. It could also be that my sample size is too low, but that's how it's played out over 4 or 5 chests from 3-man, 6-man and raid.

[ShotgunStalker]

But it's lacking a challenge, thought it was pretty fun the first time,

What??

Me, a captain healer and a Lore-Master failed 6 times in a row on the last boss/es. We figured out the tactic kinda, but they did just so insanely much damage.


In my opinion 3 mans should be for the casual folks. 6-man and raids can be hardcore...let us newbs have 3-mans

[4tesZeitalter]

When ever I ran the new instances on my captain I always got at maximum something with Vitality.
I even got an earring with 150 vitality that I donated to the guardian as it was better than what he had before.

Is this only my bad luck?

[RockX]

I think the disparity is a little off. You seem to either make bank or bust.
Twins challenge last night, I received a Tarnished Symbol and the earring Prudence. Some people got only bounties. It's not a big deal in the context of our kin since we're DKPing whatever people are interested in buying, but SG today as well - most of us got bounties while one person got an earring and a Crystal of Remembrance.

It seems like the roll is for a good chest or bad chest when it should be for each potential piece of loot independently. It could also be that my sample size is too low, but that's how it's played out over 4 or 5 chests from 3-man, 6-man and raid.

Most things have their own independent chance. Rare and Incomparable loot currently shares the same check, but just about everything else does its own.

[Southpa]

Most things have their own independent chance. Rare and Incomparable loot currently shares the same check, but just about everything else does its own.

So you're saying I'm a chosen one?
Well, was....

[Neen_Eldar]

Getting a ring with identical stats from skraids would be an oversight on my part. Please feel free to bug it, if you haven't already.

I hate to come across are really negative & non-constructive dude but comments like this hardly fill us with confidence, i understand there's obscene amounts of loot to deal with, with all manor of stats over different ranges.
But the issues with the latest items aren't exactly new, LOTRO itemization has been poor for a number of years now, i completely agree with my former kin mate's comments (MoonwalkingIntoMordor), a huge number of updates combined with beta after beta, complaint after complaint, what more do you want from the playerbase?

I really appreciate your attention to this thread but ugh

[corrakkas]

remind me to not run with anybody who gives up after not getting loot


sigh, there are still class items in all of these places that need to be grinded, this is the real reward, everything else is a bonus, espcialy the &&&&ton of marks meds that are given out here

[Thorondir]

The randomness is a little bit off .. dont know, how it will run out in the end.

But, today we ran BG (T2 CM) and our tank got 2 (!) Symbols and a star-lit from durchest, while other got nothing. This could be distributed a little bit better.

[DutchEZmoder]

What??

Me, a captain healer and a Lore-Master failed 6 times in a row on the last boss/es. We figured out the tactic kinda, but they did just so insanely much damage.


In my opinion 3 mans should be for the casual folks. 6-man and raids can be hardcore...let us newbs have 3-mans

Well to each it's own i guess, some people got better gear or are more skilled then others. I just happen to recruit 2 people i don't know and we face rolled through the instance. The champ died a lot during trash in the beginning, but then he decided to trait for tanking, then we had no problems. During the last boss we were like "is this really T2 CM?" Yes it was. Boss before the final boss was pretty funny with all the giants running around kicking you, but that was not really an issue, it just got a little annoying to run a lot.

You say you had a LM with you, we didn't even had 1 class to debuff and we had a cpt doing the heals, a champ tanking and the damage was not that great... :/

[RockX]

So you're saying I'm a chosen one?
Well, was....

Everyone's a chosen one sometimes

[JeauxLOTR]

I understand why loot was set to drop so well on BR, it was so people could comment on the loot quality.

But, it would have been a better idea to reset to the proposed drop/chance rate on the last build so people could report how much of what they got. It seems that would have helped get closer to that elusive 'sweet spot'.

[Wolfhardt]

Everyone's a chosen one sometimes

So when it comes to Loot in LotRO I´ve never been a chosen one.
I must say i like the idea of remote loot, so everyone got something and you don´t have to battle or check your luck on random rolls agaist any others.
But i must say equipping your char or alt is one of the MAIN interests in playing a game like this. Sure it is not the one thing, but if you do an instance or raid for a concrete amount of time you expect something like a reward.
It is kind of working or doing a job. If you go to work and do your work for 8+ hours a day you expect to be payed for it.
A veteran bounty is &&&&, as to say so. My kin and me are feeling mocked about this really bad loot.
As many posters said: why change the quality of loot as it was in previous instances?
If i run an instance i want fun + some loot. Not always the best in an instant, but i want the chance to get something useful and feel like beeing rewarded for my efforts...

[RJFerret]

Most things have their own independent chance. Rare and Incomparable loot currently shares the same check, but just about everything else does its own.

Yikes, that explains why so many people are dismayed at the results, both "good" and bad.

Instead, one roll, with appropriate chances of various qualities apportioned out, thereby guaranteeing a minimal reward, with perhaps an exceptional one. (Admittedly it makes changing the chances more work, as they impact each other.)

To put it another way, folks don't want to spend all that time for naught, it's also not fun (see the psychological concept of Flow) when the rewards are disproportionately greater than the challenge. An unknown reward corresponding to the effort maximizes fun. People enjoy it even more when they influence the result/have some control.

[RBHaNNiBaL]

If you want loot(symbols and crystals)+faceroll, run Durchest t1. Its a 15min run, and you can do it over and over and over

If you want challenge, do some DG HM's, one hour runs that give bounties. (and in come cases yellow items)