What's normal, what's an exploit - item swapping for bonuses

[UrsaMinor]

Blizzard? Wrong game my friend.

Eh, his confusion is understandable. Both games seem to be striving toward the same apex of ridiculousness. One has kung fu pandas, and the other has heroes prancing around on hobby horses. Gettin hard to tell them apart.

[RockX]

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

[Cloudie-wan]

The only armor swap I currently use is my 3-piece bonus from the Minstrel level 65 OD set. There is no comparable set at level 85 with the bonus (Call to Greatness applies to my whole Fellowship), or I'd use that and not bother swapping at all.

Other swaps that I've previously used involved +Outgoing Healing items, like the pocket piece from Thorog (level 50) or the jewellry set from Lothlorien (level 60), but they are not currently worth the effort to use them. I've also used the 6-piece bonus from the (level 50) Rift set as a non-combat buff swap (for the +% chance to absorb shadow damage for a certain amount of time before boss fights, like Ivar in OD). I know Captains that carry around an extra set of armor to give Motivating Speech a +tactical mitigation buff (along with them having to swap weapons for their buffs, too).

None of these are exploits, nor are any of these swaps game-breaking.

[Souku]

armor swapping is one of the few interesting aspects of combat in lotro. if they somehow restricted the ability to swap then i think the game would lose a lot of its depth. i also like that amor i earn continues to hold some value even after i outlevel it. for example i will probably continue to swap in Faron every thirty seconds to apply the improved fleetness buff for as long as i play my hunter. instead of throwing the set out i will get years of use out of it. i just dont see it as a bad thing as anyone can do it with simple keyboard or mouse macros.

[Crell_1]

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

A sad panda? No.

A sad Uruk, Goblin, or Troll? Perhaps.

A happy Ent, Beorning, or other member of the Free Peoples? Absolutely! =)

[furtim]

I'm a Captain, so I have to. Though I only swap for buffs, not for To Arms or Strength of Will like some others do. I can't afford the kind of keyboard that makes that kind of extreme swapping make sense.

[wasteland]

I swap gear for nearly everything. 3 out of 5 quickslots are taken up by gear and I've resorted to extensive tonicbar help to access the remainder of my skills. I'm constantly tweaking my layout to try and streamline it. I think the only set bonus I don't use is the OB reset chance on shadow lament and that is because I am lazy. It's a shame the level 75 command set 3 piece bonus doesn't stack with the level 85 command set bonus (0 CD on Rallying Cry FTW!).

[SabrielofLorien]

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

If you are a sad panda now then I guess you have not ever been out on the Ettenmoors...

Out there, Guardians swap out stuff all the time. I've been watching them and learning how they do it. I have a Guard and so I notice a few things when they switch. Some of the one's out there have been doing it for a long long time.

Guardian: Block<->OP stance and they used to have to change weapons. Now they don't. It was a clue when the 2 hander showed up and the shield vanished, that Stagger was in your creep's future. Now I see the debuffs flip back and forth. Snare, Stagger, Challenge, etc.

I don't think those are exactly exploits though.

For the OP:

When I'm solo, I often dismiss and recall my pet to reset their CDs. The lynx can do a lot of damage up front but if the skills are on CD, I dismiss and resummon.

I never thought of this as an exploit though, because if I mis-time my recall and dont have combat summoning traited and get snagged by a mob, I can be toast in a hurry.

[Ailedra]

Not bizarre when your old minstrel set bonus gives full fellowship call-to-greatness. The example of a hunter switching out gear sets according to which skill they're going to use seems a bit much, but not something to be of such great concern that everyone should be barred from switching.. in my opinon.

Oh, I totally get why it's worth swapping out for bonuses on long-cooldown skills.

Note that I'm not talking about switching armor sets before the fight; carrying an extra set or two of gear, to swap in dependent on the fight and the challenges it poses makes sense to me.

Also, swapping weapons, or anything hand-carried, makes decent sense.

Swapping out strapped-on, strapped-in pieces of armor mid-combat is where things get a little weird and illogical to me.

And yes, I'm aware that my suspension of disbelief is strained by the notion of swapping a breastplate mid-combat, but not by the idea that I can carry 3-4 full sets of armor (along with multiple full-sized weapons) on me in 6 knapsacks. I'm aware of the inconsistency

[stubing]

Blizzard? Wrong game my friend.

Lol, my bad. I've been playing SC2 a lot.

[xDementedx]

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

So Orthanc +600 tactical mitigation motivation from Captain would be one?

[Gilean-EU]

I am pretty much with RockX here. I have always thought that while it probably is not an exploit, in my point of view it is still a bit like cheating. You are supposed to get those equipment or LI buffs by wearing that item. I also find it a bit silly that people swap items all the time, for me it is too much of a hassle. Everyone is entitled to do that of course, if it is allowed (and seems to be it is, although it's not the intention of devs). Personally I have never done that, I like my bag space (and free LI slots) more.

[Laerien]

Some equipment that give buffs trigger cooldowns when are swapped, obviously swapping is not intended (at least not always). I used to have some of those, but the requirement is have them equiped before a fight, use them to get the buff, then swap for the main one. I always forget to swap them back

One thing is swapping for bonuses, or stats (a warden for example may want to carry a set with vit and other with might) clicking one by one but doing this with a macro is cheating and violates the CoC rule:

18. You may not create, post, use or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine (including, without limitation, macroing programs, botting programs, server emulators, client hacks, map hacks, and data gathering utilities).

[Lestache]

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

If you're going to look at anything, instead of trying to figure out how to remove buffs gained from out-of-combat switching, could you instead look into some method to eliminate or restrict in-combat switching of armor and weapons?

As others have pointed out, it's rather silly that someone can switch into and out of an entire set of armor in mere seconds in the middle of combat. Plus, have you seen how ridiculous Champs look when they switch between DW and 2-h for individual skills?

[RJFerret]

Huh?

Really??

It makes sense to not be able to swap armour but DOES make sense to be able to swap weapons???

How can that possibly make sense?

If you can't swap armour, you should only be able to swap weapons if you are back at the location the other weaponry is stored, or perhaps sacrifice your current weapon by discarding it on the ground?

Meanwhile, we only have one pocket, so any jewelry you want to swap should mean discarding the existing worn pieces if you happen to find a replacement alternative in hand.

Game design is a concession. Lotro is geared toward fun. The game is designed to require you swap certain items, it makes no sense that other arbitrary items can't be swapped, remember, they are all the exact same thing, pixels with a label and attributes in a database.

It would make no sense that you could swap a ring, offering mitigations and a set bonus but not a glove, when you'd have to take the gauntlet off to get to the ring underneath!

For all the folks suggesting "it doesn't make sense", how does it "make sense" to be able to swap a smaller quantity? If an entire set being swapped bothers you, change your perspective to consider they are only swapping five or six pieces of their set of their 18 pieces of gear, just a third of it!

Starting to pick nits and suggesting you can swap X but not Y enters a very slippery slope, and makes it harder for designers (as RockX pointed out, already designing around the premise), and harder to determine what is a bug versus what is not.

It's much easier for a company to make it clear, rather than the condition being "some". It's also much less confusing for the populace, which already is overwhelmed with aspects of this game (look at all the people who play up to the level of obtaining legendaries, then quit or make an alt to play from start to 45 again).

[AndiZ]

I hate item swapping during combat, but as a captain, you are forced to, when you want to use your class effectively.

So please please please get rid of buff weapons and emblems, but get rid of the Buff Legacies, too! (like the Legacy for Tactics: Relentless Attack and Motivating Speech)

[wolfaqua]

The only armor swap I currently use is my 3-piece bonus from the Minstrel level 65 OD set. There is no comparable set at level 85 with the bonus (Call to Greatness applies to my whole Fellowship), or I'd use that and not bother swapping at all.

Other swaps that I've previously used involved +Outgoing Healing items, like the pocket piece from Thorog (level 50) or the jewellry set from Lothlorien (level 60), but they are not currently worth the effort to use them. I've also used the 6-piece bonus from the (level 50) Rift set as a non-combat buff swap (for the +% chance to absorb shadow damage for a certain amount of time before boss fights, like Ivar in OD). I know Captains that carry around an extra set of armor to give Motivating Speech a +tactical mitigation buff (along with them having to swap weapons for their buffs, too).

None of these are exploits, nor are any of these swaps game-breaking.

Nar, I always suspected you wuz a swapper

[Galahadur]

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

Not really, but after some time with the bonus armour sets, some skills just don't feel "right" without the bonus.

As a guardian i can speak for the Bonus to Warrior's Fortitude, which by itself is a very weak skill but when you mix it with the 200% increase from the Draigoch Set with the decreased cooldown of the Orthanc/Hythbold Set's it becomes somethink you cannot just let go once you have it.

One suggestion: Create a new trait type for past armour bonuses. 2 Slots, one opens at level 60 (Watcher/DN bonuses allowed, if you unlocked the sets) and another at 75. When you complete a set, you finish a deed that turns that set's bonuses into a trait you can slot.

Not only do you take a hammerstrike at gear swaping, you can do that without upsetting the players Status Quo.

[AndiZ]

One suggestion: Create a new trait type for past armour bonuses.

I support this suggestion, but it wouldn't get rid of the legacy based necessity for item swapping. Sometimes I even swap my weapon for Make Haste (which is pretty important in the Ettenmoors). And I hate being forced to do all this micromanagement to survive. The game stops being fun and becomes stupid work, when you do this all the time (creating new buff weapons after each expansion becomes tedious, too).

So why don't I stop swapping? Because I'm supposed help my group survive and finish the content and this helps tremendously.
I love playing my captain as a supporting class, but much less in raids and instances than in the past, because all this stupid clicking becomes tedious.

[Kerin_Eldar]

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

Try having a word with your colleague that created a macro/add-on system that allows this, the root cause of your sadness:

I swap gear for nearly everything. 3 out of 5 quickslots are taken up by gear and I've resorted to extensive tonicbar help to access the remainder of my skills. I'm constantly tweaking my layout to try and streamline it. I think the only set bonus I don't use is the OB reset chance on shadow lament and that is because I am lazy. It's a shame the level 75 command set 3 piece bonus doesn't stack with the level 85 command set bonus (0 CD on Rallying Cry FTW!).

Without such officially support automation (add-ons like Tonicbar) this sort of thing would only be done by players prepared to use third-parry hacks.

[Acasta]

Mmm...

Switching gear during combat, for the betterment of the group as opposed to oneself would make it an obvious non-exploit. Gear switching while totally un-realistic is a game mechanic that the developers quite obviously put into the game, and continue to make improvements to gear pieces that makes the capability divide to pushes for the gear exchanges even more obvious.

Frankly, I don't see the point of this post. Does the OP have a problem with other players doing this? I also find it curious, the OP is making a point on PvE and not PvP, should the poster be as offended in either situation? I would, if I cared.

If I was Queen for a day, I would make the bonuses of gear more comprehensive so there would be no need for gear swapping all together, gear swapping is a result of poor game design practices by the developers.

Sue

[Raven-EU]

Been through this discussion before. My idea is still:

*) Place a swap-out cooldown on any gear changed in combat, say 10 seconds, i.e. each piece of gear can only be swapped every 10 seconds while in combat.
*) Give set bonuses a 0-10 second activation cooldown when swapping gear in-combat (time depends on the buff. stronger buffs have longer cooldowns.).

Done!

That takes care of:

*) Does not affect gear swapping done out of combat, e.g. while buffing.
*) Allows players to swap gear to be able to adopt to a secondary role while in combat without major penalty.
*) Gives a large enough penalty to make the most exploitive kinds of gear swapping ineffective.

Thoughts?

P.s. a skill that is "useless" or "under performing" without a set bonus is broken and should be fixed.

[Kevinbacon88]

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

I promise to not make you a sad panda if you promise to be our Hunter Dev.

[Saelyth.]

While it isn't an exploit per-se, I'm not hugely fond of the ability to swap out entire item sets. I feel it can have a negative impact on gameplay and eliminates an aspect of choice when one can simply swap in and out gear to maximize the effect of specific skills. On top of all of that, it leads to the effective loss of a great deal of bag space, which we all know is a huge premium in our game.

The most egregious set bonus offenders, ones which can potentially remain active outside of combat or for very long durations, I attempt to hook up in a manner where you lose the bonus when you unequip the set.

TL;DR: Nope, not an exploit, just creative use of game mechanics which leaves this dev a very sad panda.

P.S. You all don't want me to be a sad panda, now do you?

A workaround to disable the bonuses can easily be done to stop item-swapped because you already did that in some items. As example i'll tell you about OD Ivar's ancient herbs (That item that removes 3 Disease, Wound, Fear and Poisons from the entire fellowship), when you equip it, you can't use the item for the first 5 minutes. Now i always had to choose if wearing that in a hard fight where i'd need a lot of stats (and that item it's a sacrifice) or wear my precious stats. It always was fun and challenging.

Couldn't you add a 5minutes timer to get all bonuses of the items we are wearing?

P.S. OD ivar's item scaled to isengard, making us able to use it even in saruman to remove debuffs from all of us, but it didn't scaled to Rohan so now it's useless except for low level content, it's WAI or it's a bug? Getting that item was a high (reaaally high) motivation to run OD in my server even when isengard was already here.

[Rapunzel666]

Been through this discussion before. My idea is still:

*) Place a swap-out cooldown on any gear changed in combat, say 10 seconds, i.e. each piece of gear can only be swapped every 10 seconds while in combat.
*) Give set bonuses a 0-10 second activation cooldown when swapping gear in-combat (time depends on the buff. stronger buffs have longer cooldowns.).

Done!

That takes care of:

*) Does not affect gear swapping done out of combat, e.g. while buffing.
*) Allows players to swap gear to be able to adopt to a secondary role while in combat without major penalty.
*) Gives a large enough penalty to make the most exploitive kinds of gear swapping ineffective.

Thoughts?

P.s. a skill that is "useless" or "under performing" without a set bonus is broken and should be fixed.

full ack.. despite lotro not having a claim to being 'realistic', it still feels false that you can gain an advantage by macro usage to change more than one gear piece at a time.