Sapience, could you clarify something please?

[Bhorn_EU]

You originally posted this on a thread you closed (which I'm NOT discussing as I am aware you, that's the generic Turbine you, not you personally, frown upon the raising of closed threads)

"Performance issues are a consideration in every patch, fix, and update. It is not called out explicitly in every patch, fix, and update. It is a constant effort that is an incremental process. A process often confounded by the fact that a large number of players do not report useful information or ofter report client performance issues as server issues. I appreciate that will be considered 'blaming the player', but it does not change the reality of the situation.
As for other changes, some were clearly called out as known issues after Update 9. Issues that were clearly stated as being changed in the next update. They have been."

Hopefully the boys in the backroom are working on the lag issues that were introduced with Update 6, some time ago, so I'm going to leave that paragraph well alone, however......

Can you please direct me to the thread, known issue, or conversation which states that enabling many many people to have 2nd age items at a comparatively reasonable price is a known problem to be redressed at a future patch. And that the reversal of this behaviour and once again forcing the price up to over 300G is a good thing for the game and it's virtual economy.

Also I see there has been no mention of the ettens loot which has been spawning in PvE chests, which the devs/Gm's are aware and will be addressed "in a future patch".

Addendum, I have found this is the known issues list :-
"Certain instances are currently dropping incorrect loot. While some are overly generous, others are overly conservative. This will be addressed in a future update."
As it can be inferred Durchie was being overly generous, something that is ENTIRELY a matter of opinion, can you please tell us which instances where not dropping enough loot and have had the droprates increased, thank you.

[bastiat1]

"Certain instances are currently dropping incorrect loot. While some are overly generous, others are overly conservative. This will be addressed in a future update."

I'm 60% certain that was a quote by RockX and was specifically referencing Marks, Medallions, and Seals rather than incomparable, rare, and epic quality loot, or symbols, relics, etc.

[GithlithMonaghan]

I'm 60% certain that was a quote by RockX and was specifically referencing Marks, Medallions, and Seals rather than incomparable, rare, and epic quality loot, or symbols, relics, etc.

Yeah I remember it in that particular context too. However, you can argue now that some changes have been announced. Yet again this quote is absolutely not precise at all. So if players are pissed off about hardly getting any symbols anymore, this quote can not be brought up as a clarification. Nobody ever said there wouldn't be any symbols no more except in very very rare situations. And nobody thought this would seriously be Turbine's solution for the Durchest-Farming-"problem". So I find it unfair to just close all of the threads with pissed off opinions about that nerf.

It's a shame that they have tried to improve something which turned out to be considered a nerf by most anyone. That's the turbine-view. The player's view is that it's a shame they nerfed something they should have improved and that we have to wait for weeks until this may or may not be changed again for the better. And until then we're stuck in a bloody dead-end of - again - no content that's worth being played.

[Hurin]

Can you please direct me to the thread, known issue, or conversation which states that enabling many many people to have 2nd age items at a comparatively reasonable price is a known problem to be redressed at a future patch. And that the reversal of this behaviour and once again forcing the price up to over 300G is a good thing for the game and it's virtual economy.

Replace "2nd age items" with anything strongly desired by the average player and you begin to see why you can't always have what you want. At least, not as easily as you might like to have it.

If they screw up the loot tables for 1st age items next, someone will make post after post decrying how they shouldn't even be difficult to obtain anyways.

We don't have a constitutional right to Tarnished Symbols of Celebrimbor. Nor is Turbine required to leave issues in place merely because some folks became accustomed to them, and now feel entitled to their results.

[GithlithMonaghan]

We don't have a constitutional right to Tarnished Symbols of Celebrimbor. Nor is Turbine required to leave issues in place merely because some folks became accustomed to them, and now feel entitled to their results.

Well loot defines content. If they take out loot without bringing in adequately other loot content will stop existing. That's what happened now. They never said the symbols were an issue though. That's news that I learned when it was already fixed.

If content depends on just one single item - symbols that is - it's a very stupid decision to take those pretty much out of the game. You're getting better gear at higher drop chances out of skraids. So all that's left is the LI-grind - which now nobody will do because what you get is useless without symbols which are out of reach.

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

Well loot defines content. If they take out loot without bringing in adequately other loot content will stop existing.

They didn't 'take out loot'. They made it so that Durchest/Twins T1 doesn't drop the symbols anymore.
Are you saying that thereby abolishing stupid 10 Minute Farmruns over and over is a bad thing? This way, at least the whole instance gets run.

Seems a good idea to me.

SNy

[TCMiller]

They didn't 'take out loot'. They made it so that Durchest/Twins T1 doesn't drop the symbols anymore.
Are you saying that thereby abolishing stupid 10 Minute Farmruns over and over is a bad thing? This way, at least the whole instance gets run.

Seems a good idea to me.

SNy

That sounds great in theory, but lets face it a BG full run takes around 1.5 hours for a good group of players. A full run PUG just isn't likely to ever succeed. Then you get to the end and you still only have a 3-5% chance of getting a symbol and only on the last boss. I don't think ending one of the few raids actively being run is a brilliant idea without having something ready to go to replace it.

Please, let me run some more skirm raids to kill time. I mean that content hasn't been farmed for 2+ years after every level cap increase.

[Hurin]

They never said the symbols were an issue though. That's news that I learned when it was already fixed.

I can only speak from my own experience. . . nobody I know in the game truly believed that the Durchest loot was working as intended. It was, essentially, too good to be true and nearly everyone knew it. Loot of that nature is generally not that easy to get this early in the release cycle (post-expansion).

Now, did some people (imo, foolishly) believe that Turbine intended to do this? Possibly. Did more people engage in wishful thinking and hoped that farming multiple symbols per run was by design? Certainly. Did both of those groups then develop a sense of entitlement to easy symbols? Unquestionably.

But, they did all but say that the loot in BG was being changed and the 20-minute symbol runs were going to be a thing of the past. The dev posts are still there. When they say that "legendary item related" loot was being "looked" at in that very instance within the context of people complaining about the 20-minute symbol runs. . . what exactly did you honestly expect to happen?

Most saw the handwriting on the wall. And most appreciate that Turbine can't spell these things out lest they encourage even more farming and undesirable behavior (damage to the economy, etc.).

Hell, even now people are asking for more information on the loot tables and exactly what has changed. So that they can plan their next "path of least resistance" to the epic loot they crave. It never seems to occur to them that there might be a valid reason why Turbine doesn't provide this information. . . or comment more transparently on things like the Durchest runs.

--H

[Gandie2]

I can only speak from my own experience. . . nobody I know in the game truly believed that the Durchest loot was working as intended. It was, essentially, too good to be true and nearly everyone knew it. Loot of that nature is generally not that easy to get this early in the release cycle (post-expansion).

Now, did some people (imo, foolishly) believe that Turbine intended to do this? Possibly. Did more people engage in wishful thinking and hoped that farming multiple symbols per run was by design? Certainly. Did both of those groups then develop a sense of entitlement to easy symbols? Unquestionably.

But, they did all but say that the loot in BG was being changed and the 20-minute symbol runs were going to be a thing of the past. The dev posts are still there. When they say that "legendary item related" loot was being "looked" at in that very instance within the context of people complaining about the 20-minute symbol runs. . . what exactly did you honestly expect to happen?

Most saw the handwriting on the wall. And most appreciate that Turbine can't spell these things out lest they encourage even more farming and undesirable behavior (damage to the economy, etc.).

Hell, even now people are asking for more information on the loot tables and exactly what has changed. So that they can plan their next "path of least resistance" to the epic loot they crave. It never seems to occur to them that there might be a valid reason why Turbine doesn't provide this information. . . or comment more transparently on things like the Durchest runs.

--H

What you are saying to me here is that for all the people that read every post that every dev ever makes, and hang on every word of turbine, and are basically good little fan boys, for them the 'code' was plain. That the symbol runs would be taken away so "farm them while you can boys."

This is what pisses me off about the whole thing. Either people farming durchest for symbols is ok or it is not. If not it should have been closed and fixed the first night.

To leave it up for a month just rewards the people in the know. There are dozens if not hundreds of folks with 20 plus symbols and riddle mark crystals in their vault. And these are the people that are cheering this change. People that farmed it none stop for 2 weeks knowing that any day it would be nerfed, then started to wonder as it was not nerfed. Now they feel rewarded.

This type of behavior is inexcusable for a company running an online game. The same with the Hytbold instance farming. It should never have gone on as long as it did. Should never have gone on for more then the 2 days it took for people to start making posts bragging about the amount of gold and other items they where farming daily with no effort.

However, unlike the Hytbold quests, I see no reason to take durchest down. It was something that a lot of poeple were enjoying. People that otherwise would never see this content where running it and enjoying it. Many a person that otherwise would never have stepped foot in BG got a taste doing the farm runs and then ended up doing full runs.

How is this something that Turbine wants to change. People enjoying raiding in 12 man groups. Inclusive 12 man groups. The last couple weeks groups where not that picky who they would take. So anyone that really wanted to go could. Unlike most 12 man raids where if you are unknown or less then ideally geared you have a snowballs chance in the lower areas of getting a group.

I repeat. Durchest was fun and many people that normally can not, because of time constraints or gear, or what not, got to go and enjoy it. Now that is gone. How can this be desirable?


I really do wonder why the other thread that mentioned this got closed. This is a forum for discussing game, general discussion. A thread that touched on 5 or 6 topics some with positive and negative views on all the topics gets close for what reason??

Only thing I can think is someone at turbine had a hangover and just said screw it I'm closing this instead of reading it.

[Lestache]

However, unlike the Hytbold quests, I see no reason to take durchest down. It was something that a lot of poeple were enjoying. People that otherwise would never see this content where running it and enjoying it. Many a person that otherwise would never have stepped foot in BG got a taste doing the farm runs and then ended up doing full runs.

How is this something that Turbine wants to change. People enjoying raiding in 12 man groups. Inclusive 12 man groups. The last couple weeks groups where not that picky who they would take. So anyone that really wanted to go could. Unlike most 12 man raids where if you are unknown or less then ideally geared you have a snowballs chance in the lower areas of getting a group.

I repeat. Durchest was fun and many people that normally can not, because of time constraints or gear, or what not, got to go and enjoy it. Now that is gone. How can this be desirable?

At the risk of being slightly pedantic, all those same people can still go and enjoy Durchest T1. It still exists, it just doesn't have the most desirable loot anymore.

However, I do agree that it seems a bit silly to change it at this point. We're allegedly getting three new single-boss raids in about a month - why adjust the loot for an instance that has maybe five weeks of relevance left?

As for the rest of your post that I snipped, welcome to Turbine, where problems get fixed long after most everyone has squeezed as much benefit out of them as they can. (Moria doors providing immunity, Hytbold instance raid farming, documents of mount ownership being sold at 1/10 the price... oh wait - that last one actually was fixed almost immediately when they removed the NPC from the game for the entirety of the festival. Thank goodness they jump on the important things right away.)

[Hurin]

What you are saying to me here is that for all the people that read every post that every dev ever makes, and hang on every word of turbine, and are basically good little fan boys, for them the 'code' was plain.

No, I'm saying that it was common sense that this was a bug and not working as intended. And then if you persisted in believing --contrary to common sense-- that the best loot currently in the game was intended to drop from the sky like rain, you could spend five minutes on the dev tracker and see that it wasn't going to stay that way.

See the difference there? If not, I suspect you're not allowing yourself to see it.

That the symbol runs would be taken away so "farm them while you can boys."

Once again, parsing as uncharitably as possible. The "code" was: "We don't want to draw any more attention to things that we wish weren't currently in the game. But yeah, what you're talking about, we're fixing it."

This is what pisses me off about the whole thing. Either people farming durchest for symbols is ok or it is not. If not it should have been closed and fixed the first night.

Ummmm, that's not how things work. They can't fix these things in "one night." And, though I'm sure turning off the instance was considered, they probably decided that was too drastic. After all, what's the harm? Oh. . . wait. . .

To leave it up for a month just rewards the people in the know. There are dozens if not hundreds of folks with 20 plus symbols and riddle mark crystals in their vault. And these are the people that are cheering this change. People that farmed it none stop for 2 weeks knowing that any day it would be nerfed, then started to wonder as it was not nerfed. Now they feel rewarded.

. . . there's the harm. Anger and resentment on the part of those who feel that if the bank finds an error in your favor, you should get to keep the money.

Symbols are some of the most desirable loot in game. That you actually think it's in Turbine's (or the game's) long-term best interest to devalue them as they have just because a bug got into the loot tables. . . and to leave it there just because some people have become accustomed to it. . . well, I can't really argue with you here. You either see the problem with that, or you don't. But out of two people, one who sees the issue there and one who doesn't, guess which one is likely to be hired as a designer for an MMO. . .

This type of behavior is inexcusable for a company running an online game. The same with the Hytbold instance farming. It should never have gone on as long as it did. Should never have gone on for more then the 2 days it took for people to start making posts bragging about the amount of gold and other items they where farming daily with no effort.

You're comparing apples and aircraft carriers. People completing content and obtaining the loot vs people forming raids, most of them going afk, and gaining immense wealth for doing nothing.

But hey, if you think fixing a bug is "inexcusable" because you liked the bug. . . I can't stop you from being upset. . . apparently.

However, unlike the Hytbold quests, I see no reason to take durchest down. It was something that a lot of poeple were enjoying.

So, wait, it should have been taken down the first night. . . but if not the first night. . . then never? That's an interesting perspective on managing bugs in an MMO. You get one night. . . then whatever damage you've inadvertently done to your game, its design, or its economy needs to be permanent? That's seriously your stance?

People that otherwise would never see this content where running it and enjoying it. Many a person that otherwise would never have stepped foot in BG got a taste doing the farm runs and then ended up doing full runs.

But not if you had your way. They either needed to let this bug go on forever, or nip all your happiness in the bud on day one.

. . . skipping over some stuff here since it's more of the same. . .

Only thing I can think is someone at turbine had a hangover and just said screw it I'm closing this instead of reading it.

Maybe it's because of poor attitudes like this?

--H

[Eartholloth]

When they found out about this, they should have closed the instance until they had a fix. Sure there would have been people upset but things like this should not go on as long as this one did. Things like this have happened before & they waited to do something & seen how upset people were. Looks to me Turbine has a hard time learning from there past mistakes.

[Hurin]

. . . or people could have just accepted the obvious (that it was temporary), enjoyed it while it lasted, prepared for it to end, and not gotten upset when it inevitably did.

But that's expecting way too much. Too many people believe what they want to believe and want what they want with minimal effort. When confronted with the fact that --according to long-standing precedent-- what they're getting is coming way too easily and will likely stop being so easy in the future, they instead choose to believe that they're entitled to these easy rewards and will freak out when those easy rewards are no longer forthcoming.

[MithrielWielder]

Every "expansion" it has been the same-- easy loot for the elite players for a month or so, then when the commoners start to get some they take it away and make it impossible for them to get it. They did the same thing with Moria, Mirkwood, Isen. they seem to be sold on the idea that catering to this small group of people is needed to run a successful MMO. To reserve the best items to a group of exclusionary players offends a sense of fairness, and is a strong disincentive to level up alt characters. But we've had this conversation so many times. They won't change.

[Rasimir]

. . . or people could have just accepted the obvious (that it was temporary), enjoyed it while it lasted, prepared for it to end, and not gotten upset when it inevitably did.

While that's true, you can lokk at it somewhat different: People were enjoying these fram runs. Other content was less attractive for a lot of people. Now the farm runs are gone, and what do those people do now? Being forced to do something they didn't want a few days ago doesn't please people, and avoiding this 'force' means not to play at all. To put it short: where is the replacement??? Even announcements (or teasers) for the upcoming raids are missing.

[Neumi]

I was never much of a loot grinder , I think that's the worst a MMO can offer.
2nd agers for everyone? Sure, I'm all for it. Running a mindless grind over and over for it? Not so much.

On the one side I am happy now that I will see full BG runs now, maybe also a few other instances, maybe some people think that other instances might be fun as well.
But there is the damage, Turbine has done over the past months.

First they allow farmers to get a LOT of gold, they could earn in one day what other people consider a good income over 2 years, so the market for rare things is now more expensive than it ever was (with Isengard it was ok, one symbol for everyone, the 2nd one for reasonable prices)
Then they remove the one rare item which everyone wants from the market again. I logged in to check, and the prices were tripled instantly.

I thought Turbine's goal is to keep us grinding, they have proven that with the last winter festival. Now I am not so sure.

[Hurin]

Every "expansion" it has been the same-- easy loot for the elite players for a month or so, then when the commoners start to get some they take it away and make it impossible for them to get it. They did the same thing with Moria, Mirkwood, Isen.

Do tell! Examples please! With every expansion, Turbine has nerfed legitimate/non-bugged/non-exploit means of gaining loot every time? I've been playing since beta, and I'm wracking my brain, but I can't come up with a single instance of Turbine yanking content just because they felt the "commoners" were doing too well with it. Any example I can think of, there was obviously something amiss or a bug being exploited (grand stair is a good example).

they seem to be sold on the idea that catering to this small group of people is needed to run a successful MMO. To reserve the best items to a group of exclusionary players offends a sense of fairness, and is a strong disincentive to level up alt characters. But we've had this conversation so many times. They won't change.

Indeed, the constant refrain that people who play more, or play at a high skill level are somehow "elitist" is indeed tired and smacks of needless "classism" that I assure you most "elite" players don't actually recognize (they aren't thinking of you nearly as much as you are thinking about them). I am neither highly skilled nor in possession of a lot of leisure time, but I know people who play at a very high level and play all day long. . . and they're not elitist. But then again, I don't choose to resent people for their playstyles or even their lifestyles that allow them to play so much more than I can.

So thanks for not bringing that up again.

While that's true, you can lokk at it somewhat different: People were enjoying these fram runs. Other content was less attractive for a lot of people. Now the farm runs are gone, and what do those people do now? Being forced to do something they didn't want a few days ago doesn't please people, and avoiding this 'force' means not to play at all. To put it short: where is the replacement??? Even announcements (or teasers) for the upcoming raids are missing.

That's not an argument for not fixing the BG loot. That's an argument for finishing the content that was delayed or making the loot for other content more compelling. Leaving bad loot tables in place to compensate for other issues in the game doesn't sound like a sound design decision to me.

[Rainothon]

Let's face it. People were farming Durchest, a small part of an instance, like there was no tomorrow. What do you expect? That the devs will just sit back and let it continue?

He, don't get me wrong, I was more than happy that I could buy a Tarnished Symbol of Celebrimbor for a measly 95 G at the AH last weekend. It was out of my reach (read: 800 G) for a long time.

But when the player behaviour shows these obvious signs that the loottables are wrong: some content is overplayed, some content is underplayed, the devs take action. And rightfully so. You can still farm Durchest, but the loot will not be as before, because before it was unintentionally profitable.

Besides, I expect FA symbols will find their way to the loottable in a few months. That's sooner than you think. And when that happens Durchest will be Durwho?

[Fralin]

some content is overplayed, some content is underplayed, the devs take action. And rightfully so. You can still farm Durchest, but the loot will not be as before, because before it was unintentionally profitable.

Yep, they did an awesome job scaling rewards in Fornost so people run it . Seriously though, there won't be any more Durchest farms. Marks -40%, no symbols/crystals and an extremely low chance of getting gear. Welcome to 9.1

[Grimdi]

Given how out of scale the Durchest loot was compared to other instances it was obvious that something would be done about it. Unfortunately instead of adding proper upper/lower bounds on the lootsystem for items per group they took the easy option of adjusting the chances in some loottables while keeping the general flaw in the system (going by patchnotes).
Of course the situation should have been solved earlier, but keeping the problem because it has existed for a few weeks wasn't an option. I guess the delay was a combination of bad timing (holidays), resources being bound for update 10 and experimenting with different options to solve the issue (though I wish that would have resulted in a better solution).

[Rasimir]

That's not an argument for not fixing the BG loot. That's an argument for finishing the content that was delayed or making the loot for other content more compelling. Leaving bad loot tables in place to compensate for other issues in the game doesn't sound like a sound design decision to me.

I totally agree, and I never meant they shouldn't fix it. But the timing is extremely bad: They let it run for over a month (while the hytbolt instances were closed rather soon after they became aware of the problem there), and now they fix the tables without any replacement. It was even hinted in the known issues that there was something wrong with loot. The way Turbine dealt with the symbol drop problem is frustrating for the players. They should have stopped / fixed the problem early, or they should have let it run until they have something to offer as a replacement. It is not only a technical (or design) problem, but a psychological one as well.

Edit: That should lead us back to the original question: please clarify your plans, Turbine.

[Egilric]

I can only speak from my own experience. . . nobody I know in the game truly believed that the Durchest loot was working as intended. It was, essentially, too good to be true and nearly everyone knew it. Loot of that nature is generally not that easy to get this early in the release cycle (post-expansion).

Now, did some people (imo, foolishly) believe that Turbine intended to do this? Possibly. Did more people engage in wishful thinking and hoped that farming multiple symbols per run was by design? Certainly. Did both of those groups then develop a sense of entitlement to easy symbols? Unquestionably.

Ah, but Sapience, specifically stated that Durchy was WAI.

So as he is the community liaison and shouldn't knowingly lie to us we took that statement at face value.

If players have a sense of entitlement to Durchy/Symbols then the only people to blame for that is Turbine.

They told us that it was WAI.

All The Best

[FundinStrongarm]

Ah, but Sapience, specifically stated that Durchy was WAI.

So as he is the community liaison and shouldn't knowingly lie to us we took that statement at face value.

If players have a sense of entitlement to Durchy/Symbols then the only people to blame for that is Turbine.

They told us that it was WAI.

All The Best

I understood the part that was WAI was the part where there weren't any locks on BG. The loot drops were a separate issue and, at least to me, weren't WAI and acknowledged by Turbine.

[Hurin]

they should have let it run until they have something to offer as a replacement. It is not only a technical (or design) problem, but a psychological one as well.

Since the artificially high number of people running BG/Durchest was the result of a bug in the loot tables, it would seem odd from their perspective that they should be expected to let it stay or "replace" it. . . it's a bug. It should be removed. From that perspective, the game is now functioning as it should, even if they wish they had more content ready for us than they do.

But leaving a bug that is generating "artificial" exuberance about a small slice of content (and having undesireable side-effects where endgame loot and wealth distribution are concerned) merely because people like all the (essentially) free loot and will be mad about the state of the game without it? Maybe a PR person would argue for that. . . but as a game designer, that would fairly seem like madness.

They do, after all, have plans for endgame loot like the symbols. They have plans for the future about how available they should be (and therefore how valuable and sought after). . . it doesn't seem like a credible argument to say that they should just throw things like that out the windows because a bug got into the game and there was nobody around the holidays to either "fix it up or shut it down."

And, again, this wouldn't be a problem if people would have just been realistic from the beginning, and not expected to keep the results of a "bank error" in perpetuity.

Ah, but Sapience, specifically stated that Durchy was WAI.

So as he is the community liaison and shouldn't knowingly lie to us we took that statement at face value.

If players have a sense of entitlement to Durchy/Symbols then the only people to blame for that is Turbine.

They told us that it was WAI.

All The Best

Except, as others pointed out, this never happened (except where the lack of "locks" were concerned). The opposite happened, in fact. We were told both in the "known issues" thread, and in more than one dev post that loot (and BG loot in particular) were not working as intended, were being "looked at," and would be changed. If you can't read that writing on the wall, I'm sorry. But that's not Turbine's fault. And, even though this is "just the internet," you really should have your facts straight before you accuse a person of "knowingly lying". . . that's someone's integrity (even, dare I say "honor") that you are besmirching while it seems that you yourself are not stating the truth.

And with that, I'm spent. You can't stop people from being angry if they've decided to be angry. I learned that long ago. And I awoke this morning to a sick wife, a sick preschooler (though she's now on the mend), and a sick infant. I'm the last one standing. So I best stay off the computer.

--H

[Rippentuck]

. . . or people could have just accepted the obvious (that it was temporary), enjoyed it while it lasted, prepared for it to end, and not gotten upset when it inevitably did.

But that's expecting way too much. Too many people believe what they want to believe and want what they want with minimal effort. When confronted with the fact that --according to long-standing precedent-- what they're getting is coming way too easily and will likely stop being so easy in the future, they instead choose to believe that they're entitled to these easy rewards and will freak out when those easy rewards are no longer forthcoming.

Excellent insights here, and yet you're only scratching the surface of the fact that this is how so many people expect the real world to be, and their reactions are the same when it isn't.


Rip