What are the LOTRO loot developer(s) doing?

[Nymphonic]

stop trolling plz, develop something ...

Ok Undying, explain how he is trolling. Didn't he just say that they are? I for one am glad that the blue names are responding in the threads again.

[Nymphonic]

This is going to sound like a stupid question because I am not a raider, and it probably is, but what gear are you guys talking about? I'm guessing maybe you're talking about 1st age LIs?

If someone could post a link or image of top gear so I can see the stats it would help a lot.

[wasteland]

Ok Undying, explain how he is trolling. Didn't he just say that they are? I for one am glad that the blue names are responding in the threads again.

He may have been a bit tongue in cheek re trolling. I'm glad RockX is as visible as he is. He has been handballed a bit of a sinking ship, but I wish him well in finding the mythical loot balance that we all seek.

[PureEvil-Lotro]

I'm sorry i find this abit funny, RAIDERS QQing that people not of their Status are FARMING for loot, and its even funnier to me that theres so many so called LEET E raiders here in this thread. what am I getting at you ask? its the fact that FARMING Comms in the moors for what RAIDERS claimed was armour required to raid in for PvE, everyone had their holier than thou speach on how its Turbine fault and they were forced to do it, now that FARMING for leet gear is reversed, you expect Tubine to do someting? I know I dont speak for all folks who PvP, but get over yourselves, Turbine hasn't done a damn thing to stop blatant comm farming why expect them to do so now with your precious gold gear.

[Pluck]

Rock, you've got at least one player who appreciates multiple options for obtaining high-end gear. (That would be me if I wasn't clear)

Myself as well, and Im willing to bet thousands and thousands of others. Multiple paths for gearing up is absolutely essential. While I DO have plenty of time to play the game, I do not have long, uninterrupted stretches of said time to invest in all the time consuming minutiae that go along with raiding. Ive been playing MMOs since the 90s and have completely burned out on raiding, on 5 hour raids, on multiple raids a week, etc. I just have no desire or interest in doing that anymore. I prefer small groups, duo and solo activities, and believe those things should give me a path to getting decently geared and equipped. And no, I dont NEED the very top tier of gear that might give me 2% more dps or survivability, but it would also be nice to have a few pleasant surprises in my loot drops now and then.

[ShireDweller]

This is going to sound like a stupid question because I am not a raider, and it probably is, but what gear are you guys talking about? I'm guessing maybe you're talking about 1st age LIs?

If someone could post a link or image of top gear so I can see the stats it would help a lot.

It's for Ancient Riddermark crafting scrolls. I think they are called Helmet of the Horse Lords, and Bracelet of the Horse Lords. Single-use recipes, very rare. Sorry, I don't have a link to post with the gear stats.

[Link64]

As someone who has played LOTRO since SOA open beta, here is my take on the whole loot situation. Loot rewards for any content in the game should be based on the following factors: relative time to complete the content, difficulty of completing the content, and the size of the group required to complete the content (the added challenge of group dynamics and teamwork). Those activities that require the longest time, the largest group size, and have the highest level of difficulty should reward players better or more than any other content.

Why? Because if a player can get better rewards for something that is short in duration as opposed to something lengthy, they will more often do the shorter content. If players can get better rewards from doing something on their own as opposed to the rewards from finding a group and running an instance, they will play solo (as in the type of content, not necessarily playing alone). If easy content gives better rewards than challenging content, the easy content will see more action. In short, because of the grind involved in so many aspects of this game, players will more than likely take the path of least resistance when it comes to gearing up their characters. Content that fails to have the proper time/challenge/incentive ratio will become underused.

When Moria was new, people ran all the instances to get the radiance gear they needed for raiding. When Turbine introduced the Moria Medallion system, it no longer mattered what instance you ran as they all gave the same kind (but not the same amount) of medallions. So predictably, people started to shy away from Dark Delving (the hardest instance) and 16th Hall (the longest instance) and instead started farming the one instance that gave the most amount of medallions in the shortest amount of time. Those that might have enjoyed the variety and challenge of the other instances had more trouble finding groups to run them.

You saw the same behavior at work with Durchest in the scaled BG raid prior to the last update. The segment of the raid that gave the most reward in the least amount of time saw the most play. The difficulty in defeating him on tier 1 was so laughable that half or more of the raid group could be completely incompetent and you were still likely to pull off a win with decent leadership. The more skilled players were getting Durchest down in 10 minutes or less, including the whole gauntlet fight.

If something is more challenging, it should be an accomplishment when you succeed. We’re not talking about epeen here. It’s about taking pride in an achievement. Of course luck was always a factor when you were rolling against 11 other members of your raid for a coveted piece of loot (or rolling against the RNG in today’s system) but having a piece of high-end gear that only came from a raid instance was a badge of honor. Much like having the balrog’s sword in your front yard back in the day, it showed others who saw it that you completed the raid. You beat the most challenging content in the game. It is no different than displaying the Undying title or for that matter wearing a Superbowl ring. There was a time when people congratulated other players when they announced they had defeated {insert raid boss here} for the first time.

Judging from some of the posts here, now it seems like completing a challenging raid and expecting a better reward has become a cardinal sin. How dare you expect a reward for putting in time and effort to do something many others can’t or won’t do. Raiders get lumped in with the rejects who put people down in glff and go on about how leet they are (a sub-species of troll that while possessing the ability to raid is completely different from raiders that just want rewarding challenges).

It’s inconceivable to me that people in this thread have actually advocated for having the exact same rewards come from any kind of content whether it be grouped, solo, or RP. It’s as if this was some PC Little League and everyone needs a trophy even if they didn’t win because otherwise their feelings get hurt. It’s like we can’t acknowledge that some people excel at playing their characters because we need to maintain the illusion that everyone is equally special (identical to saying nobody is special).

Let me be clear, I am in no way opposed to people crafting, soloing, skirmishing, or whatever to get good level cap gear. Those are legitimate ways to play the game and they too should have proper rewards for the time and difficulty of completing such content. That said, the current end game raid should always have the better loot in general, even if the difference from the next set down is small. It doesn’t necessarily need to have a better version of every single piece of gear worn by all classes (indeed I have yet to ever have a character that wore nothing but gear obtained from one raid instance) but it should have at least something for everyone that is better than another item in existence: a better agility bracelet, a better heavy shield, a better will necklace, etc. It’s incentive to spend time running the new content instead of farming the old. It rewards those who try and succeed at doing something difficult.

Before I end this novel (and thanks for reading btw) my last point is this. Obtaining a piece of gear should never rely heavily on probability. It’s one thing to say “everyone has an independant chance of something dropping and that something will be a random item usable by your class” (changed from a random something will drop and if it’s something you want you have a random chance of winning the roll). It’s entirely different to say “go kill hundreds of mobs in the landscape and you’ll have a miniscule chance to get a random item that may not be usable by your class/profession”. If something is gonna be soloable, make it soloable. Don’t make it a freaking lottery. We have lotteries as it is and we have lootboxes as well. I’d prefer something be a grind to obtain rather than it having the same odds of occurring as me getting stung by a bee, attacked by a shark, and struck by lightning while having the winning lottery ticket in my pocket even after I’ve accumulated a virtual body-count higher than most wars.

[Osolep]

So at the time these recipes were added to the game there was no raid to put them in. Obviously we all need something to look forward to loot wise while questing so they essentially added these recipes to the crafting and hytbold instances. Sure when the raid comes out there will be a hole slew of gear and jewelery which can only be obtained from the raid. Just because these are the best right now doesn't mean they will be in a month or two.

+ rep to the post above for well written thoughtful post.

[BroadwayBlueshirt]

Comparable Incomparables. Solo instances, crafting, small groups, and large groups each have their own set of class gear with different cosmetic appearances, a minor variation in stats, and different set bonuses. To make things interesting include a set bonus for wearing a piece from each set. Please and thank you.

[RKL]

As someone who has played LOTRO since SOA open beta, here is my take on the whole loot situation. Loot rewards for any content in the game should be based on the following factors: relative time to complete the content, difficulty of completing the content, and the size of the group required to complete the content (the added challenge of group dynamics and teamwork). Those activities that require the longest time, the largest group size, and have the highest level of difficulty should reward players better or more than any other content.

Why? Because if a player can get better rewards for something that is short in duration as opposed to something lengthy, they will more often do the shorter content. If players can get better rewards from doing something on their own as opposed to the rewards from finding a group and running an instance, they will play solo (as in the type of content, not necessarily playing alone). If easy content gives better rewards than challenging content, the easy content will see more action. In short, because of the grind involved in so many aspects of this game, players will more than likely take the path of least resistance when it comes to gearing up their characters. Content that fails to have the proper time/challenge/incentive ratio will become underused.

When Moria was new, people ran all the instances to get the radiance gear they needed for raiding. When Turbine introduced the Moria Medallion system, it no longer mattered what instance you ran as they all gave the same kind (but not the same amount) of medallions. So predictably, people started to shy away from Dark Delving (the hardest instance) and 16th Hall (the longest instance) and instead started farming the one instance that gave the most amount of medallions in the shortest amount of time. Those that might have enjoyed the variety and challenge of the other instances had more trouble finding groups to run them.

You saw the same behavior at work with Durchest in the scaled BG raid prior to the last update. The segment of the raid that gave the most reward in the least amount of time saw the most play. The difficulty in defeating him on tier 1 was so laughable that half or more of the raid group could be completely incompetent and you were still likely to pull off a win with decent leadership. The more skilled players were getting Durchest down in 10 minutes or less, including the whole gauntlet fight.

If something is more challenging, it should be an accomplishment when you succeed. We’re not talking about epeen here. It’s about taking pride in an achievement. Of course luck was always a factor when you were rolling against 11 other members of your raid for a coveted piece of loot (or rolling against the RNG in today’s system) but having a piece of high-end gear that only came from a raid instance was a badge of honor. Much like having the balrog’s sword in your front yard back in the day, it showed others who saw it that you completed the raid. You beat the most challenging content in the game. It is no different than displaying the Undying title or for that matter wearing a Superbowl ring. There was a time when people congratulated other players when they announced they had defeated {insert raid boss here} for the first time.

Judging from some of the posts here, now it seems like completing a challenging raid and expecting a better reward has become a cardinal sin. How dare you expect a reward for putting in time and effort to do something many others can’t or won’t do. Raiders get lumped in with the rejects who put people down in glff and go on about how leet they are (a sub-species of troll that while possessing the ability to raid is completely different from raiders that just want rewarding challenges).

It’s inconceivable to me that people in this thread have actually advocated for having the exact same rewards come from any kind of content whether it be grouped, solo, or RP. It’s as if this was some PC Little League and everyone needs a trophy even if they didn’t win because otherwise their feelings get hurt. It’s like we can’t acknowledge that some people excel at playing their characters because we need to maintain the illusion that everyone is equally special (identical to saying nobody is special).

Let me be clear, I am in no way opposed to people crafting, soloing, skirmishing, or whatever to get good level cap gear. Those are legitimate ways to play the game and they too should have proper rewards for the time and difficulty of completing such content. That said, the current end game raid should always have the better loot in general, even if the difference from the next set down is small. It doesn’t necessarily need to have a better version of every single piece of gear worn by all classes (indeed I have yet to ever have a character that wore nothing but gear obtained from one raid instance) but it should have at least something for everyone that is better than another item in existence: a better agility bracelet, a better heavy shield, a better will necklace, etc. It’s incentive to spend time running the new content instead of farming the old. It rewards those who try and succeed at doing something difficult.

Before I end this novel (and thanks for reading btw) my last point is this. Obtaining a piece of gear should never rely heavily on probability. It’s one thing to say “everyone has an independant chance of something dropping and that something will be a random item usable by your class” (changed from a random something will drop and if it’s something you want you have a random chance of winning the roll). It’s entirely different to say “go kill hundreds of mobs in the landscape and you’ll have a miniscule chance to get a random item that may not be usable by your class/profession”. If something is gonna be soloable, make it soloable. Don’t make it a freaking lottery. We have lotteries as it is and we have lootboxes as well. I’d prefer something be a grind to obtain rather than it having the same odds of occurring as me getting stung by a bee, attacked by a shark, and struck by lightning while having the winning lottery ticket in my pocket even after I’ve accumulated a virtual body-count higher than most wars.

Lots here to disagree and agree with. You are making a lot of analogies. Super bowl ring. PC Little League. Your focus seems to be that group play deserves better rewards than solo play. The bigger the group, the better the reward.

This game is more like an Olympiad. Lots of different events. Some team play, others solo events. In the end the winners get the same medals.

If you really like the team concept, then compete against other teams. Let’s make the rewards of fellowship play be dependent upon how well the team scores. Let the drops be scaled upon how fast the instance is run. How many deaths occurred. Etc. There would be your badge of honor. Not the fact that you completed the same instance as 10,000 other fellowship groups.

[Link64]

If you really like the team concept, then compete against other teams. Let’s make the rewards of fellowship play be dependent upon how well the team scores. Let the drops be scaled upon how fast the instance is run. How many deaths occurred. Etc. There would be your badge of honor. Not the fact that you completed the same instance as 10,000 other fellowship groups.

That actually is a rather interesting idea and if it were implemented properly I would welcome such a feature. You just reminded me of something Turbine tried a while back but never pursued further. They had some contest linked with the myLOTRO site where people on each server competed to have the fastest clear time on a skirmish. Round one was a tier 1 6-man Amon Sul. The next round was a tier 2 3-man of something and the final round was a solo tier 3. I remember my fellowship got the top time on our server for round 1 (being a 6-hunter group) but the results on the site got bugged when someone finished the instance like 50 seconds after midnight so the site listed their time as 50 seconds (presumably why we never saw this event again). That would be cool if they found a way to bring that back and have it actually work.

[FundinStrongarm]

Awesome post by Link64. I agree with the approach to loot it presented.

[RKL]

That actually is a rather interesting idea and if it were implemented properly I would welcome such a feature. You just reminded me of something Turbine tried a while back but never pursued further. They had some contest linked with the myLOTRO site where people on each server competed to have the fastest clear time on a skirmish. Round one was a tier 1 6-man Amon Sul. The next round was a tier 2 3-man of something and the final round was a solo tier 3. I remember my fellowship got the top time on our server for round 1 (being a 6-hunter group) but the results on the site got bugged when someone finished the instance like 50 seconds after midnight so the site listed their time as 50 seconds (presumably why we never saw this event again). That would be cool if they found a way to bring that back and have it actually work.

I don’t know what the Turbine personnel hours/problems involved would be.

People who are fully geared might also be more interested in rerunning instances, so that they could slightly bump up their stats.

Edit: of course this is going to be a more stressful group situation. There is likely to be more anger and finger pointing among fellowship members.

There will also have to be a set standard, like the current value of items as a default for just completing the instance.

[FundinStrongarm]

Lots here to disagree and agree with. You are making a lot of analogies. Super bowl ring. PC Little League. Your focus seems to be that group play deserves better rewards than solo play. The bigger the group, the better the reward.

This game is more like an Olympiad. Lots of different events. Some team play, others solo events. In the end the winners get the same medals.

If you really like the team concept, then compete against other teams. Let’s make the rewards of fellowship play be dependent upon how well the team scores. Let the drops be scaled upon how fast the instance is run. How many deaths occurred. Etc. There would be your badge of honor. Not the fact that you completed the same instance as 10,000 other fellowship groups.

In your Olympiad analogy, certain events are virtually guaranteed success while others take much more effort to achieve. If the same medals are handed out, people will take the path of least resistance. I, personally, don't think the easiest path should be rewarded the same as a more difficult path. YMMV.

[RKL]

In your Olympiad analogy, certain events are virtually guaranteed success while others take much more effort to achieve. If the same medals are handed out, people will take the path of least resistance. I, personally, don't think the easiest path should be rewarded the same as a more difficult path. YMMV.

Which virtually guaranteed events/rewards are you speaking of?

[FundinStrongarm]

Which virtually guaranteed events/rewards are you speaking of?

There are very few, if any, solo 'events' where success isn't guaranteed in the 'Olympiad' of LotRO.

[Nymphonic]

It's for Ancient Riddermark crafting scrolls. I think they are called Helmet of the Horse Lords, and Bracelet of the Horse Lords. Single-use recipes, very rare. Sorry, I don't have a link to post with the gear stats.

Got it. Thanks for answering!

[RKL]

There are very few, if any, solo 'events' where success isn't guaranteed in the 'Olympiad' of LotRO.

We are talking about rewards, are we not?

I, personally, don't think the easiest path should be rewarded the same as a more difficult path. YMMV.

So, I ask again.

Which virtually guaranteed events/rewards are you speaking of?

[FundinStrongarm]

We are talking about rewards, are we not?



So, I ask again.

Which virtually guaranteed events/rewards are you speaking of?

You spoke of LotRO being like an Olympiad, with both team and solo events but where the medal (reward) is the same. Perhaps I misunderstood your analogy or what you were trying to say. Were you saying team and solo 'events' ought to get the same medal (reward)? It seems to me the solo 'events' in LotRO are virtually guaranteed to succeed and are relatively easy to achieve. To 'reward' the same 'medal' to easily achieved goals compared to harder to achieve goals doesn't seem right to me - there's no incentive to try the harder goals.

[Cakellene]

You spoke of LotRO being like an Olympiad, with both team and solo events but where the medal (reward) is the same. Perhaps I misunderstood your analogy or what you were trying to say. Were you saying team and solo 'events' ought to get the same medal (reward)? It seems to me the solo 'events' in LotRO are virtually guaranteed to succeed and are relatively easy to achieve. To 'reward' the same 'medal' to easily achieved goals compared to harder to achieve goals doesn't seem right to me - there's no incentive to try the harder goals.

You should attempt harder modes if you want the challenge, not for the reward. At least, that's my view.

[Whatevaplz]

The sad fact is that the epic loots now are luck-base not completing hard and time-consuming raids. Been doing BG T2C before update 9.1 and get what BOUNTIES lots of them since you get 2 per challenge. Now they added some relics which now I get when I finish a BG t2c. YEY?!?!? Relics that anyone can get in like 5 minutes finishing a crafting instance... 1 T5 relic in 5 minutes or 12 -/+ (Possible T5 relics) in 2++ hours finishing a raid instance. SERIOUSLY!?!?!? Rewards are HORRIBLE mind as well sit in a hytbold instance, tag a mob, press 1-2-3 and just hope for a horselords recipe.

[Frisco]

I don't care if they leave the .01% drop rate for recipes on normal L85 mobs, but they also need to be dropping somewhere less random with a higher drop rate for either a larger time commitment or a harder challenge. This totally random BS is no way to distribute loot and keep people coming back for more.

Give them a 5% drop chance from T2 chests, or start lower and get progressively higher for later bosses. Maybe 2 or 3% for T2 skirmish chests.

And there's no reason some of the best gold armour pieces should be only dropping from old, recycled content. Hopefully, they'll drop from the new stuff as well come update 10. BG was fun to run back when the loot was ridiculous (or in 2009), but nothing but the urge to play with my raid group once a week will get me back in there otherwise. Scaled content is flat out boring. I dread the day they ruin the Rift.

[Frisco]

You should attempt harder modes if you want the challenge, not for the reward. At least, that's my view.

I don't care if harder modes get me better loot, but at the very least, it had better get me the same loot in larger quantities. Challenge is fine motivation until you master it, but for replayability, it needs appropriate rewards.

[RKL]

You spoke of LotRO being like an Olympiad, with both team and solo events but where the medal (reward) is the same. Perhaps I misunderstood your analogy or what you were trying to say. Were you saying team and solo 'events' ought to get the same medal (reward)? It seems to me the solo 'events' in LotRO are virtually guaranteed to succeed and are relatively easy to achieve. To 'reward' the same 'medal' to easily achieved goals compared to harder to achieve goals doesn't seem right to me - there's no incentive to try the harder goals.

What is your definition of harder? Is doing a difficult 12 man raid many times, harder (require more effort) than grinding for a month and a half to get the Hy gear. I am guessing that you believe the upcoming instances should give better gear. (since you never answered my question, I am forced to guess) If you have specific examples other than this, I would like to hear them.

If you wish to continue on in the Olympiad analogy. The 100 meters gives the same medals as the marathon. The participants in the 100 meters are much more “guaranteed” to successfully finish than the marathon runners are and use much less effort in the process.

Many people don’t like to group up. Should we give marathoners, who will grind in the game way beyond your capacity to match them, better gear than the Raiders just because they might believe that grinding is the most difficult thing to do in the game?

[BobbyK45238]

Not everyone raids. I like the idea that something of value drops outside of an instance/raid. It gives the people not in a big guild or who don't want to grind raids/instances the chance to obtain something worthwhile.

Far too many MMO's put everything good into the instances and raids and leave the world drops less than desirable.