What are the LOTRO loot developer(s) doing?

[FundinStrongarm]

You should attempt harder modes if you want the challenge, not for the reward. At least, that's my view.

If there's no extra reward for attempting harder modes, they will be attempted with little frequency. If I can craft or solo to get the best bling with virtually guaranteed success on my own schedule, there's little incentive to join with others to do something much harder to get the same piece of bling. Trying to get a group under those circumstances would be very difficult. At least, that's my view.

[Cakellene]

If there's no extra reward for attempting harder modes, they will be attempted with little frequency. If I can craft or solo to get the best bling with virtually guaranteed success on my own schedule, there's little incentive to join with others to do something much harder to get the same piece of bling. Trying to get a group under those circumstances would be very difficult. At least, that's my view.

Assuming those conditions were true, that seems to indicate that most of the people don't care about the challenge and just want the new bling. Which is perfectly understandable, and most likely true.

[FundinStrongarm]

What is your definition of harder? Is doing a difficult 12 man raid many times, harder (require more effort) than grinding for a month and a half to get the Hy gear. I am guessing that you believe the upcoming instances should give better gear. (since you never answered my question, I am forced to guess) If you have specific examples other than this, I would like to hear them.

If you wish to continue on in the Olympiad analogy. The 100 meters gives the same medals as the marathon. The participants in the 100 meters are much more “guaranteed” to successfully finish than the marathon runners are and use much less effort in the process.

Many people don’t like to group up. Should we give marathoners, who will grind in the game way beyond your capacity to match them, better gear than the Raiders just because they might believe that grinding is the most difficult thing to do in the game?

I didn't mind the implementation of the Hytbold armour sets. I even would've liked to see a TSoC for the effort involved. However, crafted armour has pretty much gone the way of the dodo because of it. I'm not even that concerned if the new raids give better armour sets, although if they don't they likely won't get run much. Perhaps they'll have more of the improved Fate stat that will be helpful/required in doing group content. I will say that at least the lame 'how can I raid if I can't get the armour one gets during a raid' excuse ought to be diminished.

When I see people talk of gear, I look at all the available slots and not just armour. There are 8 jewelry slots plus shield/off-hand/(even bow) slots as well. The day all ~15 slots can be filled with best-in-slot solo (read daily grind) content is the day group PvE content will come to a screeching halt. Probably close to the same day non-consumable crafting gets finished off as well.

It all comes down to the path of least resistance. If you remove the extra reward for completing raid or even 6-man content, people won't bother doing it.

[forumnb]

I work 6 days a week, care for my grandmother and 4 orphans. I only have time for 20 minutes of Lotro a day. Why should the best loot be restricted to level 85 elitist soloers. It is no harder to kill a lvl 85 mob at 85 than it is to kill a lvl 6 mob on my lvl 6 guard. AND, I pay for the game (well actually I don't, but you know what I mean) so I should have access to gold end game gear via a pathway that suits my play style (which is just as valid as anyone else's). So, devs, start generating non level restricted loot tables for all level mobs and remove the level restrictions from that horse-lord gear so I can wear it. Because after all, the mixed doubles badminton players get the same gold medal as the 100m runners at the Olympiad.

[CroKat]

I work 6 days a week....

Apparently you dont or you wouldnt be cynical about people who do.
Some day when you do start working to pay your bills, do take care of your old Mother and try to financially support your unemployed children, you might grow some respect for those who did it all years before you.

[Damojo]

Apparently you dont or you wouldnt be cynical about people who do.
Some day when you do start working .......

Poster will need to complete puberty first

[forumnb]

Apparently you dont or you wouldnt be cynical about people who do.
Some day when you do start working to pay your bills, do take care of your old Mother and try to financially support your unemployed children, you might grow some respect for those who did it all years before you.

Well, I would have thought that it was obviously apparent that I didn't. The blatant satire was making a point about the relevance of our real lives to the loot drop of a virtual game. Maybe you think the game designers should cater for every walk of life - fair enough - But, why express that view when you can launch a personal attack instead - it always adds to the debate. <-sarcasm

[RKL]

I didn't mind the implementation of the Hytbold armour sets. I even would've liked to see a TSoC for the effort involved. However, crafted armour has pretty much gone the way of the dodo because of it. I'm not even that concerned if the new raids give better armour sets, although if they don't they likely won't get run much. Perhaps they'll have more of the improved Fate stat that will be helpful/required in doing group content. I will say that at least the lame 'how can I raid if I can't get the armour one gets during a raid' excuse ought to be diminished.

When I see people talk of gear, I look at all the available slots and not just armour. There are 8 jewelry slots plus shield/off-hand/(even bow) slots as well. The day all ~15 slots can be filled with best-in-slot solo (read daily grind) content is the day group PvE content will come to a screeching halt. Probably close to the same day non-consumable crafting gets finished off as well.

It all comes down to the path of least resistance. If you remove the extra reward for completing raid or even 6-man content, people won't bother doing it.

The jewelry and other stuff is another matter. I like the idea of it all being BOE so the soloers can buy it.

Yeah, I have not made crafted armor in a long time, although I know people (soloers) who use it.

I think the raid sets should have the same stats (will, might, etc.) as the hy/whatever sets, but that the class buffs on them be raid orientated. Soloers could not then go into a raid and function as well as a raider.

I still like my idea of increased stats on the items depending on how well the fellowship ran the raid. Maybe some system for the soloers to up their stats as well by excelling above the curve on what they do. Not going to happen though, I am pretty sure.

[Axil]

I come from a MMORPG background of V high end raiding - (I was the 2nd ranked Druid on my EQ Server (Karana) in the top ranked European Guild on there) though these days I don't have the time to do Raids (older , wiser and more RL responsibilities) so I solo play mainly. In my own opinion I think that solo players should always have a small (but miniscule) chance of getting the occasional raid level drop as it does spice up the experience.
Raiders of course should have a much higher chance of getting fat lewtz due to the 'extremely' high skill level that they play at (actually from having Raided for many years on various MMO's I have to argue that raiding requires a higher skill level as more of the time you follow strict procedures with very little chance for flair and initiative but I digress) and the time they can put in.

[BotLike]

This is another disappointment.

I couldn't care less about people who have the patience to farm 10k standard or swarm 85 mobs
to stand a chance of getting a bracelet recipe.In their own way , through patience and grind they
deserve the loot.
I am not one of them , and if i wanted a chinese-farmer-tutorial game , there are better ones out there.
Those recipes should drop elsewhere , but hey , lootwise i am sick of this game the last 4 months.
I am getting used to it.

Waiting for U10.

Another disappointment means googling "Top MMO's 2013" and freeing up 15G of HD space.

People do it all the time right ?

[Laerien]

Rock, you've got at least one player who appreciates multiple options for obtaining high-end gear. (That would be me if I wasn't clear)

Yep +rep

The market has changed, thats how modern mmos work now. Sadly it seems some Turbine devs still living in the past decade, they have done some efforts with Hytbold, these crafting recipes, but still it's not enough.

I mean if someone is thinking that writting another line in the loot table, with 1% drop chance, will solve the "fact" that different styles of playing, in one way or another, want to reach that abstract concept called "endgame", then "the game is over".

What the game needs is different OPTIONS to satisfy a wide portion of player styles. This is not about what content is harder or hardest.

[Ferthcott]

Which virtually guaranteed events/rewards are you speaking of?

There were cases with people who were putting significant effort to participate in Special Olympics even though their disability had little to do with performance in specific field - something like hiding behind letter of the law, while pissing on its spirit. So yeah, they were winning with relative ease - at least compared to the alternative they should be pursuing. Since it is "just the game", we could call other participants, who were often fuming, unreasonable - but should we? I am not a fan of modern "sportainment", which is why I see such analogies differently. Medals are indeed handed out "equally", but they are hardly a reward in current model - think of them as "27 silver" and 50k IXP pill from a raid chest. Real reward = real money (unless we treat modern sport with pink glasses on), it is distributed on "who is entertaining" basis - it has nothing to do with difficulty or overcoming obstacles. It has little to do with "obsolete" definition of sport - just as handing out same rewards with no regard to difficulty has little to do with a definition of a game (challenge as a component). As long as we already compare sports, what would you want from a chess tournament?

#1 - dividing players based on some "be considerate" criteria (age for example), but it's ability to climb the challenge ladder that is rewarded the most (ie. winning against objectively harder opponents or, if we go with age groups, winning in "adult" competition)
#2 - alternative paths - traditional one and the same reward for winning against a computer on Very Easy mode, 120 times in a row; oh and you can reset the game anytime. Yes, this is what LOTRO offers as "solo equivalent".

People argue they can't or they won't do specific content and give entire pile of reasons and yet most of "I want" I see on these forums relies on #2 version of tournament above. Then I usually hear (and I agree) we can have challenging content in solo LOTRO, we can have gradual difficulty upgrade etc. So how about we talk loot when we actually have those? Why effectively dismantle existing tournament, no matter how you hate its rules, if there is no alternative? Oh, right, Hytbold. See #2.

I know, challenge is not fun for everyone, difficult is not everything you want from a game. We can even switch to more convenient definition of a game, one that does not include challenge as a basic component, then add some vague analysis how "audience changes" - as if that meant change was independent from content designed and should be only be supported by devs. Why? We all saw devs can also easily induce changes in audiences' behavior (Durchest t1). Doesn't that tell you how silly being a slave to (conveniently murky) ideas about "casualisation" is?

Many games, related even slightly to wRPG core, rely on very simple, very basic rules, built partially on "common fantasy sense", partially on decades-long tradition: stronger monsters = shinier loot, stronger monster = fight is more complex, complexity = one of difficulty components. There were always games that were replacing difficulty with a grind or cheap skillspam - they sometimes had nothing else to offer - you could forgive baby VG industry, but it was rarely forgiven if we talked about eg. D&D. If a game does not promote challenge ladder to climb on, the only change between lv6 and lv76 character relies on placing more skill buttons on a toolbar and even that is neutered by "improved skills" later on. There is "I am new to MMO", then "I am new to RPG", then some class and loot rules and then it basically dies. Some people cheer, no idea why :/

It's like saying to your GM: "dude, I can't play for 3 hours straight any longer - just give us loot and xp for making pictures on our character sheet while at work". How about Mario rescuing princess via repeating lv1 120 times? If childish "rescuing princess" is not a goal for me (psh, let elitist Luigi do that), I can always do... um... something I like doing with Mario, probably involving jumping and spitting, de gustibus and all that. But poof! Audience changes and suddenly it is reasonable to demand princess after I play that way... long enough. How come this kind of demand feels absurd while demanding to dilute existing challenge ladder is not?

I have nothing against asking that specific game offers an opportunity to play the way I want. I have everything against asking for specific results, while disregarding existing structure and providing only some pathetic mockery of it in return.

[CroKat]

Well, I would have thought that it was obviously apparent that I didn't. The blatant satire was making a point about the relevance of our real lives to the loot drop of a virtual game. Maybe you think the game designers should cater for every walk of life - fair enough - But, why express that view when you can launch a personal attack instead - it always adds to the debate. <-sarcasm

Your "blatant satire" was offensive to people who work hard for living and I dont give a damn about relevance or irrelevance to any game. I dont care about the loot, find me one post where I whine about the loot drops?, and I certainly dont care who will developers cater to. If I dislike their catering I will take myself and my money to some other game without much notice. Simple as that.
What I will not tolerate though is someone berating people with serious life issues and obligations in a bratish manner.

[RKL]

There were cases with people who were putting significant effort to participate in Special Olympics even though their disability had little to do with performance in specific field - something like hiding behind letter of the law, while pissing on its spirit. So yeah, they were winning with relative ease - at least compared to the alternative they should be pursuing. Since it is "just the game", we could call other participants, who were often fuming, unreasonable - but should we? I am not a fan of modern "sportainment", which is why I see such analogies differently. Medals are indeed handed out "equally", but they are hardly a reward in current model - think of them as "27 silver" and 50k IXP pill from a raid chest. Real reward = real money (unless we treat modern sport with pink glasses on), it is distributed on "who is entertaining" basis - it has nothing to do with difficulty or overcoming obstacles. It has little to do with "obsolete" definition of sport - just as handing out same rewards with no regard to difficulty has little to do with a definition of a game (challenge as a component). As long as we already compare sports, what would you want from a chess tournament?

#1 - dividing players based on some "be considerate" criteria (age for example), but it's ability to climb the challenge ladder that is rewarded the most (ie. winning against objectively harder opponents or, if we go with age groups, winning in "adult" competition)
#2 - alternative paths - traditional one and the same reward for winning against a computer on Very Easy mode, 120 times in a row; oh and you can reset the game anytime. Yes, this is what LOTRO offers as "solo equivalent".

People argue they can't or they won't do specific content and give entire pile of reasons and yet most of "I want" I see on these forums relies on #2 version of tournament above. Then I usually hear (and I agree) we can have challenging content in solo LOTRO, we can have gradual difficulty upgrade etc. So how about we talk loot when we actually have those? Why effectively dismantle existing tournament, no matter how you hate its rules, if there is no alternative? Oh, right, Hytbold. See #2.

I know, challenge is not fun for everyone, difficult is not everything you want from a game. We can even switch to more convenient definition of a game, one that does not include challenge as a basic component, then add some vague analysis how "audience changes" - as if that meant change was independent from content designed and should be only be supported by devs. Why? We all saw devs can also easily induce changes in audiences' behavior (Durchest t1). Doesn't that tell you how silly being a slave to (conveniently murky) ideas about "casualisation" is?

Many games, related even slightly to wRPG core, rely on very simple, very basic rules, built partially on "common fantasy sense", partially on decades-long tradition: stronger monsters = shinier loot, stronger monster = fight is more complex, complexity = one of difficulty components. There were always games that were replacing difficulty with a grind or cheap skillspam - they sometimes had nothing else to offer - you could forgive baby VG industry, but it was rarely forgiven if we talked about eg. D&D. If a game does not promote challenge ladder to climb on, the only change between lv6 and lv76 character relies on placing more skill buttons on a toolbar and even that is neutered by "improved skills" later on. There is "I am new to MMO", then "I am new to RPG", then some class and loot rules and then it basically dies. Some people cheer, no idea why :/

It's like saying to your GM: "dude, I can't play for 3 hours straight any longer - just give us loot and xp for making pictures on our character sheet while at work". How about Mario rescuing princess via repeating lv1 120 times? If childish "rescuing princess" is not a goal for me (psh, let elitist Luigi do that), I can always do... um... something I like doing with Mario, probably involving jumping and spitting, de gustibus and all that. But poof! Audience changes and suddenly it is reasonable to demand princess after I play that way... long enough. How come this kind of demand feels absurd while demanding to dilute existing challenge ladder is not?

I have nothing against asking that specific game offers an opportunity to play the way I want. I have everything against asking for specific results, while disregarding existing structure and providing only some pathetic mockery of it in return.

I am not trying to compare sports. I am trying to separate them. A chess tournament should be played one on one, one match at a time. If you wish to create a new form of fellowship chess, then it would be a separate sport altogether.

[Lestache]

I'm sorry i find this abit funny, RAIDERS QQing that people not of their Status are FARMING for loot, and its even funnier to me that theres so many so called LEET E raiders here in this thread. what am I getting at you ask? its the fact that FARMING Comms in the moors for what RAIDERS claimed was armour required to raid in for PvE, everyone had their holier than thou speach on how its Turbine fault and they were forced to do it, now that FARMING for leet gear is reversed, you expect Tubine to do someting? I know I dont speak for all folks who PvP, but get over yourselves, Turbine hasn't done a damn thing to stop blatant comm farming why expect them to do so now with your precious gold gear.

Most of the people complaining about it are not only complaining about other raiders doing it (not really a status difference) but also are not the same people who were farming for Comms for PvP gear. The same person who was farming for Comms and defending doing so is the same person who is defending macro farming for Horse Lords recipes.

I don't really care if someone wants to farm for hours, but if they do so they should suck it up and get carpal tunnel doing so rather than afk macro it. I understand that comm farming upsets some of the hardcore PvPers - even the ones who lootbox farmed with multiple accounts on a recent weekend (not you, afaik) - but farming an alt account in the Moors is apparently allowed, as Farmpaws so eloquently demonstrated. AFK macroing and botting supposedly isn't.

[Ferthcott]

I am not trying to compare sports. I am trying to separate them. A chess tournament should be played one on one, one match at a time. If you wish to create a new form of fellowship chess, then it would be a separate sport altogether.

But that has... nothing to do with the issue at hand*. This is all about chess - or LOTRO - as a game that can be designed (tournaments) differently. Either around already existing system (#1 from post above), with item value directly connected to both combat potency (stats) and environment that assures that this increased potency is countered with more and more demanding opposition, OR around new system (#2), where item value has no context aside from "it has nice stats on it" because your opposition is the same, pathetic 85lv landscape and next expansion is designed around leveling gear as usual.

We already have system that assures character becoming better suited to fight higher level mobs with very little effort required - it is called "leveling". It has been stripped of any challenge, so why exactly dilute gear acquisition as well? If it's character progression that counts, let's add 10 tiers for Hytbold sets, bartering for weaker and perhaps another rebuilding of that cursed town required to unlock stronger, each offering additional +3 stat upgrade. What, it's practically endless progression with nothing to hide that it is also only for the sake of progression, with capped content remaining the same faceroll. And yet I suspect if #1 question asked would be "is tier #10 as good as the best in the game?" instead.

Something tells me 10 tiers of Hytbold sets wouldn't be met with cheers even if it was better. I wonder why.


Sarcasm aside, as long as group stuff has the only ladder that provides objective, number - based context for gradually better gear (ie. 3-man drops => raid drops and so on), there is no reason to treat static solo content at cap equally seriously. When we get such 85lv content that is comparable to or, preferably, more challenging than T1=>T2=>T3 skirmishes, then loot tables should be discussed. Applying them to landscape trash beforehand, or worse - instead, is like chess tournament #2. Game turned into inconsistent nonsense for the sake of... what?

* In retrospect, that sentence should probably be less confusing: "As long as we are trying to compare sports with LOTRO...", it was only a reference to earlier olympic discussion. For better or worse, this is still one game, and even if you consider LOTRO a set of minigames (not really...), certain consistency is still required. Heck, if you WANT to separate various activities, consistent rules for all of them are the best way, as having the same rules for all would assure participation based only on preference. But having the same rules also mean providing mirrored challenge ladder - or the lack of it for every category. Lack of such consistency = issues like current one = constant drama.

[RKL]

But that has... nothing to do with the issue at hand*. This is all about chess - or LOTRO - as a game that can be designed (tournaments) differently. Either around already existing system (#1 from post above), with item value directly connected to both combat potency (stats) and environment that assures that this increased potency is countered with more and more demanding opposition, OR around new system (#2), where item value has no context aside from "it has nice stats on it" because your opposition is the same, pathetic 85lv landscape and next expansion is designed around leveling gear as usual.

We already have system that assures character becoming better suited to fight higher level mobs with very little effort required - it is called "leveling". It has been stripped of any challenge, so why exactly dilute gear acquisition as well? If it's character progression that counts, let's add 10 tiers for Hytbold sets, bartering for weaker required to unlock stronger, each offering additional +3 stat upgrade. What, it's practically endless progression with nothing to hide that it is also only for the sake of progression, with capped content remaining the same faceroll. And yet I suspect if #1 question asked would be "is tier #10 as good as the best in the game?" instead.

Something tells me 10 tiers of Hytbold sets wouldn't be met with cheers even if it was better. I wonder why.


Sarcasm aside, as long as group stuff has the only ladder that provides objective, number - based context for gradually better gear (ie. 3-man drops => raid drops and so on), there is no reason to treat static solo content at cap equally seriously. When we get such 85lv content that is comparable to or, preferably, more challenging than T1=>T2=>T3 skirmishes, then loot tables should be discussed. Applying them to landscape trash beforehand, or worse - instead, is like chess tournament #2. Game turned into inconsistent nonsense for the sake of... what?

* In retrospect, that sentence should probably be less confusing: "As long as we are trying to compare sports with LOTRO...", it was only a reference to earlier olympic discussion. For better or worse, this is still one game, and even if you consider LOTRO a set of minigames (not really...), certain consistency is still required. Heck, if you WANT to separate various activities, consistent rules for all of them are the best way, as having the same rules for all would assure participation based only on preference. But having the same rules also mean providing mirrored challenge ladder - or the lack of it for every category. Lack of such consistency = issues like current one = constant drama.

I’m glad you have an opinion on the subject. Counting the last post that makes 11 plus paragraphs you have written to explain yourself.

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Albert Einstein

Your self-proclaimed sarcasm is a way of distorting the facts so that you can ridicule the distortion as if another person had actually said those things. I do not agree with what you say or your style of writing.

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either.
Albert Einstein

It is impossible for me to take you seriously under these circumstances. All I have seen you post are a series of unproven opinions slanted toward one viewpoint. This is not sufficient to convince me of anything.

[Ferthcott]

If you were not too occupied with trying to label as many of those paragraphs as opinions, you might've noticed most of them dealt with different issues or explained different sides of specific problems. It's common when judging the message (or messenger) is being given a priority over actually reading.

I also wonder what facts am I distorting with sarcastic piece. The fact you can find multiple cases where "character progression" is used as a way of explaining why better and better gear is important on these forums? That for the lack of other arguments used and for the lack of content ladder it is progression for the sake of progression only? The fact you can find strong resistance against "too demanding" solo content (see: Death From Below) AND against solo path with strong "time" component (see: Galtrev 4/6)? Sarcasm is the best that open rejection of challenging content with simultaneous demands for better gear deserve. Einstein talks about truth - not about hypocrisy.

Finally, it is also common, more than applying quotes as if they could reinforce a claim without actual substance, to call arguments "barely an opinion" to devalue them when other solutions are not as convenient. Disparity between challenge across content is a fact - can't get any less factual in a game driven by numbers and scripts. Lack of global challenge ladder for capped solo content is also a fact - skirmishes are a glimpse of it and lack additional complexity. Even challenge as a basic component of many definitions of a "game" is a fact. Treating different difficulty levels and different level of effort equally means that game has basic consistency issues - you may find that across genre, perhaps even in broader sense, this has little to do with an opinion. Comparisons or conditions actually involve them. But hey, it is easier to use blanket statement to excuse the fact (oh...) you offer no valuable argument aside from attempting to review my post. I'd rather spend my time on "11 paragraphs" to provide both point of view and its foundation (or: opinion and supporting facts) so if there are flaws or errors to be found, they are already in the open. I'll leave hiding behind quotes and trading profound sentence for sentence to others.

[RKL]

If you were not too occupied with trying to label as many of those paragraphs as opinions, you might've noticed most of them dealt with different issues or explained different sides of specific problems. It's common when judging the message (or messenger) is being given a priority over actually reading.

I also wonder what facts am I distorting with sarcastic piece. The fact you can find multiple cases where "character progression" is used as a way of explaining why better and better gear is important on these forums? That for the lack of other arguments used and for the lack of content ladder it is progression for the sake of progression only? The fact you can find strong resistance against "too demanding" solo content (see: Death From Below) AND against solo path with strong "time" component (see: Galtrev 4/6)? Sarcasm is the best that open rejection of challenging content with simultaneous demands for better gear deserve. Einstein talks about truth - not about hypocrisy.

Finally, it is also common, more than applying quotes as if they could reinforce a claim without actual substance, to call arguments "barely an opinion" to devalue them when other solutions are not as convenient. Disparity between challenge across content is a fact - can't get any less factual in a game driven by numbers and scripts. Lack of global challenge ladder for capped solo content is also a fact - skirmishes are a glimpse of it and lack additional complexity. Even challenge as a basic component of many definitions of a "game" is a fact. Treating different difficulty levels and different level of effort equally means that game has basic consistency issues - you may find that across genre, perhaps even in broader sense, this has little to do with an opinion. Comparisons or conditions actually involve them. But hey, it is easier to use blanket statement to excuse the fact (oh...) you offer no valuable argument aside from attempting to review my post. I'd rather spend my time on "11 paragraphs" to provide both point of view and its foundation (or: opinion and supporting facts) so if there are flaws or errors to be found, they are already in the open. I'll leave hiding behind quotes and trading profound sentence for sentence to others.

I was just stating my opinion, same as you have been doing. No denigration intended.

[josh13333]

After reading through this thread, it seems to me that things have gotten a little bit off topic as old rivalries between the "LEET raiders" and the "soloers" in regards to loot acquisition have flared up once again. However, it seems that the root of the argument regarding gear such as the horse-lords is that for once, the gear seemingly isn't available in instances (though, even in this thread there has been mention of the recipes dropping in chests, any links?) while it is available to any player for a large amount of farming and/or luck. This is somewhat indicative of Turbine's more solo friendly loot policy as they advance LOTRO (example being the Hytbold armor). There is also the possibility that Turbine was worried that the easier T2 challenges could have been farmed for the increased chance of dropping the recipes (via either the chests in these challenges, or the 85 mobs inside of these areas), leading them to not allowing the recipes to drop in instances, while not predicting that the Hytbold dailies would be farmed to such an extent due to the density of level 85 humanoid mobs located here. With all of this being said (being only speculation on my part) I think that a fair compromise on the issue would be to allow the recipes a chance to drop in T2 chests, or possibly only T2 challenge chests (perhaps even only in areas such as BG, minus Durchest, to prevent farming of challenges such as Iorbar's Peak?) so that both the solo player and the raiding player has the change of acquiring the horse-lord gear in their prefered play-style?. (Personal note, isn't it time for many folks on the forums to stop using the terms "raider" and "soloer" derogatorily? A little respect in regards to one another's play-style from both sides can go a long way...)

Also, to Rock, thank you for once again interacting with the community at large on the forums. I know at times we can be a hostile bunch, but I'd like to think I speak for many of us when I say the forum goers appreciate the communication.

[Ryssadis]

To the OP, basically what the loot devs are doing is trolling the players.
LoTRO office: Guy 1: hey we don't have any meaningful content, how do we get people gear and keep them playing til the next real raids come out?
Guy 2: We could introduce craftable-only gear that has an obscenely low drop rate.

<insert dev troll face>


Seriously we had a full raid of people killing 85 mobs for 3 hours and got 2 scrolls. Biggest waste of time ever.
I really hope the new raids next month are freaking glorious to make up for this nonsense.

[Gernmalille_morth]

The first thing that came to my mind when I was reading through this thread was: It is realy amazing that when someone is comming up with an idea to solve the problem (recipes only drop from lvl 85 mobs which ends in multiple raids farming the northcroft riding instance the whole day) he will be ignored.

There were some who mentioned to upscale the chance for the drops out of 3-man, 6-man and raid chests. It was mentioned to barter those recipes from vendours in Hytbold. Create a solo instance where is a chest at the end which can drop a recipe. What's wrong with that? I realy can't believe that all you folks are happy with farming all over the day. If there are some players who prefer to farm all day - fine by me (althoug I think there are better china-farmer-games out there). But what about all the others?

And to the devs: You are working on loot for the next update? Thanks for sharing! But...maybe you could work on the loot mechanics because that's why many people are realy pissed off this game right at the moment!!!

[Faitha81]

Yeah mabay these scrolls should be added to raid loot chests.

[Elrantiri]

My main problem with the current loot setup is this:

The drop rate is the same among all level 85+ mobs.

When doing a full BG lvl85 T2HM you get to kill what, ~100 mobs? That easily takes a couple of hours. It takes far from 2 hours to do the same when farming Hytbold instances, I'd say killing 100 mobs takes 15-40 minutes depending on gear.

I know BG T2HM also drop other items, but in the end this means going chinese farmer mode for bracelet recipes is WAY more efficient than doing instances. The only other alternative I can think of is the skeleton spawners in SG but I'm not sure the skeletons can drop recipes.

Raids doesn't have to ensure phat lewt or be the only source, but it shouldn't be worse than soloing IMO.

[Southpa]

I think some of the best items should definitely be available via RNG landcape avenues. I also think all challenge chests should offer them as well, at an augmented chance dependent on group-size.

If the landscape has X chance to drop them off a given mob... and it takes 10 seconds to kill a mob (generous, no doubt)
We'll assume X is a (seemingly) rather generous 0.05%.

A 3-man challenge should offer at least 90X the chance (estimating that a 3-man takes an average of 15 minutes to complete) or 4.5% chance
A 6-man challenge should offer at least 180X the chance (taking 30 minutes to complete) - 9% chance.
A 12-man challenge should offer at least 360X the chance. (harder to get a large group together, generally a harder challenge and takes longer to execute successfully, more people in the loot mix) - 18% chance.

For each player.

To do otherwise reduces the incentive to repeatedly run group content.

If we assume the drop rate of bracelet recipes is even .05% (which I think is rather generous), that's still only an 18% chance you get one after completing a raid challenge.

Right now, once you get your piece from an instance, there is no reason to go back unless you want to help a pal or you need Marks for some reason - and in that case, there are best choices. There should be increased incentive that allows a player to think they have a legitimate shot at getting one of these from any level-cap instance.

Also, these recipes are not auto-crit. With an abyssmal drop rate such as what currently exists, it makes for a potentially postal experience...

The answers are right in front of your face, devs. Our incentive is currently not.
This is not even to mention that you implement fixes to keep people from wanting to farm public instances and then put a leet piece of gear in them with the very next update.

It's simply mind-buzzling.

The jewelry and other stuff is another matter. I like the idea of it all being BOE so the soloers can buy it.

Agree. All non-class specific items should be BoE always and forever. Again, it would provide incentive for people to keep doing things that have already been done.

I think the raid sets should have the same stats (will, might, etc.) as the hy/whatever sets, but that the class buffs on them be raid orientated. Soloers could not then go into a raid and function as well as a raider.

To be fair, this is a judgment call. What does it matter if the stats vary or you get a more "raid-appropriate" bonus? Honestly, the raid-appropriate bonus is going to be more OP than a whole lot of stats would be. This assumes the bonus is usable outside the raid, which it should be.

But if I think about ToO and what would be a "raid-appropriate" bonus and then try to divvy up 9 different raid-appropriate bonuses among the 9 classes... I don't know. I can say it would take more creativity than Turbine has shown in several years, unfortunately. And it would be very hard to balance on the landscape, smaller instances and PvP.