Getting the Community back to where it needs to be

[Whart]

It goes back to my original thoughts in the thread. When I ask the community to get back to the one I remember when I first started playing it maybe hypocritical to then come back into the thread and say something that is remotely related to my original post should not be voiced. It is aggravating when everytime I go to post something I am logged out. So maybe that does contribute to the attitude we are seeing in the forums.

I will reiterate my original post for those just joining us on page 3. Some disturbing trends in the general forums have me worried about new players joining the game. When they see the following:

1. A page full of troll posts about 1st age weapons
That shows right there that there maybe a problem with how we are given loot in game. Even if there isn't
If I'm a player looking to start this game I google 1st age symbol right away and see why there are so many closed threads on it started by the same people.

2. Several threads that underlying are trying to start a flame war between different playstyles (words like forced grouping and faceroll, etc)
This shows that there may or may not be a problem with joining a group in the game. It also shows a trend that the game is taking a turn to solo play and group play may be eliminated. If I was a WOW player looking to switch games and saw this I would avoid this game. Wow is a game where solo player is for leveling and dailies only and most of the fun is done in groups. Content so easy that there is no challenge at all. When you play any game you want some type of challenge. Risk vs. Reward. Even PS3 games present some type of challenge on single player. Why should an MMO not suport this same type of behavior

3. Posters linking definitions from wiki when tearing someones opinion to shreds, condescending attitudes towards other players
If I'm a new player and I see this and I tell myself that I never want to ask a question in the forums that may be even remotely stupid. Since the community is only going to answer with trolls or try to make me look like an idiot I'll find a game that has more helpful players.

Hopefully this is more specific as to what I am asking of the community. There are more I could cover but we get the general basis of the thread.

Numbers 1 and 2 on your list are a result of recent game updates. Every time something is changed, two things happen: (a) the anticipation of a change brings hand-wringing, conspiracy theories, dire predictions, etc. from people who have been disappointed previously and can't possibly imagine that something could actually go well; and (b) the implementation of the change brings out the craziness in everyone who thinks they liked things better the old way, didn't get some perceived advantage from the change, or perceive others getting a bigger advantage than themselves due to the change. No matter what the change is, I guarantee that you will see those types of reactions to it (class trait trees coming up, wait for the hullaballoo about that one!). This does die down as the community adjusts to the new situation and moves on to the next topic to complain about (several upcoming festivals will be next, with the usual complaints about spending TP for daily resets). So things are fairly active and angry at the moment, but this will fade out as a lot of people get tired of participating in the same old argument, and the loudest shouters eventually realize that fewer and fewer people are engaging.

There are things about the game that people don't like, and the point of a forum is to allow players an opportunity to voice those concerns and pose suggestions for consideration. The issue at hand is how we do that in a way that respects other players and unites the community. The fact that there are two threads on this topic already shows a positive sign that some of us are getting tired of the flaming and want this forum to be a constructive venue for conversation.

[Sapience]

There are things about the game that people don't like, and the point of a forum is to allow players an opportunity to voice those concerns and pose suggestions for consideration. The issue at hand is how we do that in a way that respects other players and unites the community. The fact that there are two threads on this topic already shows a positive sign that some of us are getting tired of the flaming and want this forum to be a constructive venue for conversation.

This. In the most simple terms possible, as we have said many, many times before; It is not what you say, it is how you say it.

[Damojo]

<snip>
There are things about the game that people don't like, and the point of a forum is to allow players an opportunity to voice those concerns and pose suggestions for consideration. The issue at hand is how we do that in a way that respects other players and unites the community. The fact that there are two threads on this topic already shows a positive sign that some of us are getting tired of the flaming and want this forum to be a constructive venue for conversation.

With respect, one of the points of the forums is to voice complaints. They should also be the place to express satisfaction or, dare I say it, happiness about the game. But they aren't. Say anything positive on these forums and you're a fanboy; anything negative (no matter how phrased) is apparently "constructive criticism".

If constructive criticism is welcome, and I agree it should be, then it should be constructive, be criticism, and not just a rant full of expletives, insults, skewed guesses and judgmental language. Conspiracy theories are not criticism. Personal insults to others don't apply either. And the list could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I'll know the community has changed when I can state "I have no lag" and not be called a liar; when I can say "I like mounted combat" without being labelled a fanboy, or much much worse comparisons. When the fact i don't moan about issues which are either trivial (to me) or widely reported means 'I never complain, I'm a White Knight'.

And much as I applaud your sentiment, I'm not holding my breath, sadly.

[commodore1]

This. In the most simple terms possible, as we have said many, many times before; It is not what you say, it is how you say it.

Sorry, got logged off while trying to post this.



Everytime I read this it sounds like "kiss my bum or I won't fix anything." Shouldn't Turbine be wanting all the feedback they can get to fix their broken product? Not just the sugar sweetness, but the bad taste too! I mean you are getting paid to put out a working successful product right? I'm sure you're tired of "this game sux, fix the ol so many problems" but a comment like that tells me there are a great many problems and Turbine is sweeping it under the rug. Why not fix the problems while in test and not throw them into live? This community has bent over backwards for this game and still you need to be asked to do your jobs with sugary goodness, instead of because you were already paid to do so. So here goes Can you please fix the many many problems this game has so the product will be better and the community will support you again?


And when i say you i mean turbine.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I'll know the community has changed when I can state "I have no lag" and not be called a liar; when I can say "I like mounted combat" without being labelled a fanboy, or much much worse comparisons. When the fact i don't moan about issues which are either trivial (to me) or widely reported means 'I never complain, I'm a White Knight'.

Whilst I totally agree that it's wrong for you to be abused for posting comments such as those in threads where such problems are being discussed, you also have to admit that trolling works both ways and posting such comments in an already heated thread doesn't help.

Not saying you do, but the 'fanboi' epithet is often aimed at this sort of troll. When a thread is already 'warm' due to the [at times perfectly understandable] frustration/infuriation/whatever of someone having a problem, someone coming along and saying "it works fine for me" at times is clearly as bad a trolling and provocative as someone posting a deliberately negative view.

Sadly, while infractions are often handed out for those posting 'negative' trolls, far too many of the others don't seem similarly dealt with.

[Damojo]

Whilst I totally agree that it's wrong for you to be abused for posting comments such as those in threads where such problems are being discussed, you also have to admit that trolling works both ways and posting such comments in an already heated thread doesn't help.

Not saying you do, but the 'fanboi' epithet is often aimed at this sort of troll. When a thread is already 'warm' due to the [at times perfectly understandable] frustration/infuriation/whatever of someone having a problem, someone coming along and saying "it works fine for me" at times is clearly as bad a trolling and provocative as someone posting a deliberately negative view.

Sadly, while infractions are often handed out for those posting 'negative' trolls, far too many of the others don't seem similarly dealt with.

Sorry, but no, I don't agree. A "Troll" to me is someone who posts in a thread for no other reason than to cause a reaction. Posting a contrary opinion is not what i would call trolling. If we can't post opinions which differ from those of the thread originator, then there is no discussion or discourse possible.

For example, lag. If there was a lag thread where posters had decided that the lotro client was fatally bugged as they all had lag, the fact I don't is useful information. I do, after all, use the same client. Reverse the situation, and have a 'no lag' thread, responded to by someone who says 'I always get lag in Bree, Galtrev, and any time I'm using a warsteed' and again, the information is both relevant and useful. i wouldn't accuse either poster of trolling.

And being het-up about a problem is no excuse for hurling abuse at someone who disagrees; if i have a bad day at work and come home, only to rip into my wife because I didn't want fish for supper, is that OK? Trust me, she would say it isn't, and she'd be right. She doesn't run my workplace, or my job. She hasn't caused me any grief, why should she get a mouthful? And if I did it, and then apologised, that might work once. maybe twice. After that the patience would be gone.

[K'Arian]

[QUOTE=Damojo;6722446]Sorry, but no, I don't agree. A "Troll" to me is someone who posts In a thread for no other reason than to cause a reaction. Posting a contrary opinion is not what i would call trolling. If we can't post opinions which differ from those of the thread originator, then there is no discussion or discourse possible./QUOTE]

Totally agree with this, so +rep and I have to agree with what Sapience said earlier, Its not what we say, its how we say it. Now this doesnt mean we have to sugar coat everything, but it does lay a basic foundation of respect.

[Jennifern]

Wouldn't normally post as I'm no longer playing the game but this topic is an important one for all MMO designers so I'd like to share my opinion.


I believe the root of all evil (in general as well as on mmo forums) is lack of understanding. We fear what we dont understand and so we become aggressive rather than seek understanding. It is a primal human drive to eradicate things that we are afraid of and only through understanding can we remove fear.


So, when it comes to MMOs and building a brilliant community, setting expectations and explaining decisions is key to helping others understand and thus remove their fear / agression. Setting expectations and providing explanations should be done by developers and community managers but also by every single poster too.


Addressing specific lotro / mmo topics:

1) Soloers vs Groupers

A common arguement seen across most MMOs with both groups getting very angry. This stems from a lack of understanding, both about why the other group enjoys their respective activities but also a lack of understanding that there are no groups (solo/group) but it is a sliding scale with everyone enjoying both to varying degrees.

The core problem in modern MMOs is that the leveling process is now mostly solo but the endgame is mostly group. This is a classic case of developers not setting expectations correctly nor explaining their decisions. The people who prefer soloing feeling cheated at endgame whilst the groupers feel bored leveling and just try to rush.

Interestingly, this problem hardly existed at launch for lotro due to forced grouping: the developers set the expectation that you would have to group up whilst leveling otherwise you'd run out of quests. This worked great as by the time you reached cap, every single player was used to grouping up. The community in game was very strong. Ofc, forced grouping only works whilst you have a large enough community to support it and that failed in lotro with each expansion: previous zones didnt have enough people to group up. So began the revamping until we reach a point where leveling is almost 100% solo. It is a crude solution to a genuine problem, something more intelligent is required.

2) Hardcore vs Casual

When I play an MMO, I play it fairly hardcore. I min-max, I fully research everything, I like to kill every boss and beat every challenge. I do not understand the casual playstyle. What I do understand, however, is that casual players are just as important to an MMO as hardcore players.

In my experience, hardcore players are your community leaders. They are the ones who run guilds, lead raids, form pug groups, organise server events etc. Hardcore players are the catalyst for a good community because they have the time, energy and motivation to build it. However, without the casuals there would be no community at all! Casuals are more numerous than hardcore players, they spend more money that funds development. They are the ones who fill up spare raid spots, are happy to craft stuff for your alts etc. MMOs need both casuals and hardcore players to survive.

Again, to avoid arguements on forums, this level of understanding needs to permeate through the community. I would love to see some sort of epic data-mining effort that analysed MMO communities and started showing how relationships form between casuals and hardcores. I would expect to see small groups of hardcore members (endgame raiders typically) linked to a more numerous groups of intermidiates (standard / casual guild members) who are in turn linked to even more numerous groups of fully casual people.

3) My Content Should Be Developed First

Everyone has different playstyles and when someone runs out of content for their preferred playstyle they naturally want more to be developed. Someone earlier posted about the effects of scarcity and that is 100% true: when resources are scarce, fighting over resources becomes more intense.

To avoid these arguements we need the developers to set expectations correctly and then provide understanding of how the community works. Openness leading to understanding results in peace.

For example, I've recently quit SW:TOR. I went to TOR because of a love of Star Wars but also because one of their developers, Gabe, released a load of videos pre-launch that explicitly stated that PvP would be of equal importance to PvE at endgame. For me, those were the magic words. I love both aspects of gaming but am usually let down by one or the other. I have quit TOR basically because Gabe lied. PvP got little-to-no love in that game and was basically a side-part of the game, certainly not on equal footing. This made me angry because my expectations had been set by the devs, then let down, then not addressed at all.

I believe this is a symptom of deluded developers thinking they are going to be the next WoW. They try to make their games appeal to everyone and give out promises and set expectations that they just cant keep. In order to maintain a great community, it would be better to be honest in advance, set realistic expectations and accept your place as a niche game. It would probably result in slightly worse initial subscription figures but better long term fiscal rewards as a strong community of like minded players stays loyal for longer.

On top of that, being open with player metrics would help. For example, Turbine could release some metrics that say "The average player spends 90% of their time solo at endgame" which they could then justify to the community as a reason to further develop solo activities (crafting, fluff, rp, solo instances etc). If they released further details that showed "At endgame, those that group up regularly have completed 85% of the group activities and only repeat raids" this could be justification for developing more raids and less 3- and 6-mans because raiding is what people are doing most.

however, without metrics we, as a community, can only speculate and speculation is mostly wrong. Metrics provide facts, facts lead to understanding, understanding leads to peace




Sorry for very long post, friday afternoon boredom plus a growing obsession of mine regarding "what developers should do better" got the better of me! Good luck in trying to promote a better community, it is a worthy cause and definitely in the fiscal interests of Turbine!

[Kerin_Eldar]

Sorry, but no, I don't agree. A "Troll" to me is someone who posts in a thread for no other reason than to cause a reaction. Posting a contrary opinion is not what i would call trolling. If we can't post opinions which differ from those of the thread originator, then there is no discussion or discourse possible.

You may not want to call it trolling, but the kind of posts I am talking about certainly ARE posted purely to cause a reaction and deliberately inflame an already heated discussion; replying, in effect, "it works for me so it's not a problem" as this kind of post does can be described as nothing other than a 'troll'.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I have to agree with what Sapience said earlier, Its not what we say, its how we say it.

And you're both ignoring the aspect of CONTEXT, in which you can SAY something in whatever language is considered 'acceptable', but if the transparently obvious reason for its posting is to inflame a situation it is NOT accetpable: yours and Sapience's view of "how you say it" clearly misses the point here, which is probably why the person who reacts to the provocation gets infracted/baned and their post removed, while he who provokes is too often silently ignored I expect and their post not removed.

[LordVoronturEU]

There are ways of posting constructive criticisms without the need to resort to personal attacks on the Devs, the Community Staff, people aren't going to respond too well to constantly being criticized with nothing to offer as a suggestion as to how things could be improved, which is too often the case.

Also, the accusations of Turbine being greedy, etc etc.
They're in the business to make money from providing a service. Could the way Turbine do things be improved, sure it could. WE can all improve ourselves. No-one's perfect. I reckon the creation of the Player Council is a way for Turbine to get in-tune with the community more than they are now, so I applaud that as long as it's a genuine attempt to do just that.

And I'm so fed up of the words Troll and Fanboi. They are being used far too many times at the moment, often when people disagree with someone's opinion.
We are entitled to differ on things. It's what makes us humans, we're meant to question, we're meant to challenge what we deem wrong, we're not meant to just go along with every thing that "authority" tells us, that's how things have turned really bad in the history of mankind before today. I'm not mentioning names, as I'm not Godwinning the thread.

It's also unfair to equate Turbine to the great evils of the past century. They are not even on the same planet as those guys. That's the Banking Sector and their ridiculous bonuses.

[Eartholloth]

I'm so fed up of the words Troll and Fanboi. They are being used far too many times at the moment, often when people disagree with someone's opinion.

I agree, it's getting very tiresome.

[K'Arian]

And you're both ignoring the aspect of CONTEXT, in which you can SAY something in whatever language is considered 'acceptable', but if the transparently obvious reason for its posting is to inflame a situation it is NOT accetpable: yours and Sapience's view of "how you say it" clearly misses the point here, which is probably why the person who reacts to the provocation gets infracted/baned and their post removed, while he who provokes is too often silently ignored I expect and their post not removed.

Actually no, im not ignoring the aspect of context. Perhaps I should have elaborated more....I agree with you 100% that if the reason for posting a comment is soley to inflame or troll, then it IS unacceptable. What I obviously miscommunicated in my last post is that sometimes how we say things can be taken out of the context and can seem to some to inflame when actually that was not the original intention. So in these circumstances a little thought on how something is said (and at the same time how something is read) can save a lot of unnecessary reactions?

Apologies for not explaining myself better before

[Khafar]

Everytime I read this it sounds like "kiss my bum or I won't fix anything."

It's more like "if you want someone to listen to you, don't be a jerk". That applies when talking to most anyone, not just Turbine. They get plenty of feedback from people who aren't jerks about it, both inside and outside their NDA program. If I were in their shoes, I'd ignore the people spewing rants and insults too, applying moderation as fire prevention. These are people who want to start fires... it would be stupid to just let those rage.

Why not fix the problems while in test and not throw them into live?

Sometimes defects don't show up at all until they're on a system under the load that only live can provide. Sometimes they're simply not caught (or at least reported). But you can bet that most of the time, known defects which make it to live happen because developers are told that they must ship an expansion or update on a specific date. Developers don't get to make that decision - we just have to do our best to live within the constraints we're given.

Turbine did slip the launch of Rohan to improve quality last fall, but that hardly meant that it was bug-free. Just that it was "less buggy". A project of this complexity probably has many thousands of bugs reported each year, and there's never enough time to fix them all. They're prioritized, and the most critical ones tend to be fixed first (unless the fix is extremely risky or costly). Bugs which are trivial or zero risk will often get fixed too, simply to drive down the backlog.

Khafar

[maxjenius]

Everytime I read this it sounds like "kiss my bum or I won't fix anything."

You're creating a false dichotomy. There is a space in between "kissing bum" and "petulant, whiny, demanding, childish rant." What Sapience is suggesting is somewhere in that space.

[Sapience]

And you're both ignoring the aspect of CONTEXT, in which you can SAY something in whatever language is considered 'acceptable', but if the transparently obvious reason for its posting is to inflame a situation it is NOT accetpable: yours and Sapience's view of "how you say it" clearly misses the point here, which is probably why the person who reacts to the provocation gets infracted/baned and their post removed, while he who provokes is too often silently ignored I expect and their post not removed.

Sorry, got logged off while trying to post this.



Everytime I read this it sounds like "kiss my bum or I won't fix anything." Shouldn't Turbine be wanting all the feedback they can get to fix their broken product? Not just the sugar sweetness, but the bad taste too! I mean you are getting paid to put out a working successful product right? I'm sure you're tired of "this game sux, fix the ol so many problems" but a comment like that tells me there are a great many problems and Turbine is sweeping it under the rug. Why not fix the problems while in test and not throw them into live? This community has bent over backwards for this game and still you need to be asked to do your jobs with sugary goodness, instead of because you were already paid to do so. So here goes Can you please fix the many many problems this game has so the product will be better and the community will support you again?


And when i say you i mean turbine.

I quoted these two posts because one is an example of the other.

When I say, not what you say but how you say it. Sure, a thinly veiled threat or calling people liars or making false accusations with softer words could be construed as 'saying it nicely'. The fact is, when the post has the same context as if those words were used, there is no meaningful difference between the profane and proper wording of the wrong message.

"Screw You" and "Go attach yourself to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis." Say the exact same thing. Your problem is you're still choosing to use the worst possible way to express yourself.

Sarcasm and snark to thinly mask your condescension is another good example.

I suppose this is where I need to point out that the overwhelming majority of forum posters are adults. We simply expect you to act that way. Or put another way, if you wouldn't say it to your boss's face or your mother's face, we don't expect you to say it here. Understanding, of course, that you are free to do as you will, but the Community Guidelines make it very clear what happens if you choose a poor option.

[Whart]

With respect, one of the points of the forums is to voice complaints. They should also be the place to express satisfaction or, dare I say it, happiness about the game. But they aren't. Say anything positive on these forums and you're a fanboy; anything negative (no matter how phrased) is apparently "constructive criticism".

If constructive criticism is welcome, and I agree it should be, then it should be constructive, be criticism, and not just a rant full of expletives, insults, skewed guesses and judgmental language. Conspiracy theories are not criticism. Personal insults to others don't apply either. And the list could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I'll know the community has changed when I can state "I have no lag" and not be called a liar; when I can say "I like mounted combat" without being labelled a fanboy, or much much worse comparisons. When the fact i don't moan about issues which are either trivial (to me) or widely reported means 'I never complain, I'm a White Knight'.

And much as I applaud your sentiment, I'm not holding my breath, sadly.

All of this is absolutely correct. I oversimplified in making my point. People should not be insulted/ridiculed for their views whether they are expressing a complaint or expressing satisfaction (or expressing a thought about the lore, asking a question about a quest, or any of the spectrum of reasons one would use the forums).

You raise a very interesting point about positive feedback in complaint threads. I have to admit that when I read a thread about a concern that someone has, and somebody says 'that doesn't happen to me', I do stop and ask myself if that person is actually saying 'that doesn't happen to me...AND therefore it is not really a problem that Turbine should invest resources in investigating/fixing.' It's often my own personal projection rather than a reality, but the reason I'm skeptical of those types of posts is that I have seen so many of the 'I haven't seen it therefore it cannot possibly exist' posts, and the 'well maybe you care about that but I, speaking for the Majority of players, don't care' posts. Those kinds of comments make the posters who have experienced the problem or who are unhappy about something feel like they've just been told they don't matter. And that never leads to a good result. I'm not saying that is what you yourself do, just that I've seen problems on both the positive and negative sides of issues.

But if you're entering a complaint thread and trying to provide useful input ('I haven't seen that, can you tell us more about the situation so maybe we can pinpoint a pattern?' 'I can understand your frustration, but I was really happy with that change and here's why.' 'Here are some things that helped me adjust to that problem.' etc.), people should be open to the fact that you have a different perspective.

It's long overdue for us to drop the 'troll' and 'fanboy' labels, and start accepting that the things that people like or don't like about game functions aren't always going to be the same.

[Yulin-Gladden]

...."Screw You" and "Go attach yourself to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis." ......

Someone's been watching the Big Bang Theory....

[Wartober]

I quoted these two posts because one is an example of the other.

When I say, not what you say but how you say it. Sure, a thinly veiled threat or calling people liars or making false accusations with softer words could be construed as 'saying it nicely'. The fact is, when the post has the same context as if those words were used, there is no meaningful difference between the profane and proper wording of the wrong message.

"Screw You" and "Go attach yourself to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis." Say the exact same thing. Your problem is you're still choosing to use the worst possible way to express yourself.

Sarcasm and snark to thinly mask your condescension is another good example.

I suppose this is where I need to point out that the overwhelming majority of forum posters are adults. We simply expect you to act that way. Or put another way, if you wouldn't say it to your boss's face or your mother's face, we don't expect you to say it here. Understanding, of course, that you are free to do as you will, but the Community Guidelines make it very clear what happens if you choose a poor option.

Personally, my frustration with this isn't that you're wrong per se.. one would hope other people could be polite to one another all the time, but that you use this as a crutch to ignore feedback you don't care for or doesn't align with what you believe the game should be.

There's alot of us who've noticed this about you Sapience. We've seen alot of snarky comments from you aimed at posters with playstyles you (or turbine) don't particularly ascribe to while you allow others to continue in this vein indefinitely simply because they seem to play how you want them to.

You've also admitted freely to ignoring feedback you that's provided in a form you don't care for in the past, and as the gatekeeper of forum feedback, one would hope, speaking of maturity, that the pass-through of that information would be mature enough to recognize valuable feedback even if it wasn't presented in a format you found ideal.

[Elaida]

When I say, not what you say but how you say it. Sure, a thinly veiled threat or calling people liars or making false accusations with softer words could be construed as 'saying it nicely'. The fact is, when the post has the same context as if those words were used, there is no meaningful difference between the profane and proper wording of the wrong message.

"Screw You" and "Go attach yourself to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis." Say the exact same thing. Your problem is you're still choosing to use the worst possible way to express yourself.

I generally try to remain constructive as long as possible, but yes, no matter how constructive and peaceful my original intentions are, I won't stay that way if I'm being intentionally misunderstood and having my own words turned backwards and hurled straight back at me through spinning blades of a fan with some additional... uh, garbage added on them. What I'm saying is that even the most peaceful and constructive forum user does have his or her limits on how much of the general disrespect he or she can handle.

This is the reason why I have been quiet-ish at these forums compared to how active I was back at Codemasters a few years back. Back then, writing long suggestion thread with elaborated arguments about why it would be a good thing wasn't taken as licking the company's bottom by the other players, but as offering genuine feedback or ideas. I was told once that one of my posts regarding the communication between the company and playerbase was printed out and shown at a meeting somewhere to have people think about it. Back then, it felt worth posting.

As of today, at these forums, I don't really bother. I have had single sentences - or sometimes half a sentence - pulled out of a long post, out of context, and used against me through turning the whole point of the post upside down. I've had that happening to my posts way too many times. This is the main reason why I have "given up" with posting any feedback here. If you elaborate your thoughts and make the post longer three lines, someone will pick out a small part of it only to turn it against you.

Yes, I could resort to short posts, but they wouldn't help anyone. I see posts like "it sucks" or "it's great" in place of feedback as being pointless. In my opinion, being more elaborate and explaining why something sucks or is great is way more important. And, when someone does just that, as in tells the "why" behind his or her personal opinion, it should be responded to within it's full context instead of ripping it to small pieces.

I could even blow up your post, turn it upside down, crush it and attack you with the shrapnel that results from all of it, but no, I won't do that. It's not my way, and I wouldn't really want it to be chosen by anyone as the way to act. Doing that repeatedly here at the forums is pretty close to same as saying "screw you" to the person whose post is being blown up that way.

The thing is that quoting small parts of posts and replying to those quoted parts only isn't really against the rules, and the people who are acting this way obviously know it's perfectly legitimate way to provoke other forum users. They are not really breaking any rules, but they are still making me extremely annoyed. I'm not the only target of course, and I'm pretty sure there are many others who feel the same way.

We'll see where the discussion here leads, or whether you, Sapience, or anyone else, find anything valuable in this little wall of text or not. Over and out - for now.

(Note: I could have made this post very short by saying "Yes, you're absolutely right!" or something similar, but that, again, wouldn't be my way, as I think the "why" is more important than simply agreeing or disagreeing.)

[Sapience]

The thing is that quoting small parts of posts and replying to those quoted parts only isn't really against the rules, and the people who are acting this way obviously know it's perfectly legitimate way to provoke other forum users. They are not really breaking any rules, but they are still making me extremely annoyed. I'm not the only target of course, and I'm pretty sure there are many others who feel the same way.

When I was a kid I played football. My coach used to tell us, "it doesn't matter if he hit you first, or made you mad enough to hit him. Don't. Because the ref is going to see YOU every time."

When I got older, a friend of my father's gave me the best piece of advice I ever heard, "It's not bait unless you bite."

In other words, don't hit back. Don't 'defend' yourself. Let it go. Or if you prefer the 'internet' version, "Don't feed the trolls". Report it. Walk away. Be the bigger, and better person. Save yourself from an infraction (they're hoping your retaliation gets you banned before they do, it's the game they play).

No one is perfect and we all cave to it occasionally, but look at it this way..

• You have to read the post.
• The post has to cause an emotional reaction.
• You have to click REPLY.
• You have to type out your, probably lengthy, response.
• You have to click SUBMIT.

Five opportunities to not take the bait. Even if you exclude the first two, you still have three.

[maxjenius]

I'm sure you're tired of "this game sux, fix the ol so many problems" but a comment like that tells me there are a great many problems and Turbine is sweeping it under the rug.

That does not follow. The only thing such comments indicate is that there are players willing to make such comments. From my perspective, the game is mostly fine. It has some problems, but nothing I can't live with. If I couldn't live with the problems, I'd stop playing. I don't have to go very far out on a limb to confidently say that the vast majority of players are more like me than like the "This game sux!" ranters.

This community has bent over backwards for this game and still you need to be asked to do your jobs with sugary goodness, instead of because you were already paid to do so.

This kind of hyperbole accomplishes nothing other than weakening your position. Do you speak for "the community?" I don't feel I've participated in any over-backward-bending. Yet evidently you do.

So here goes Can you please fix the many many problems this game has so the product will be better and the community will support you again/

Unwarranted assumptions and hyperbole.

And re: others' posts making someone else annoyed (this is not directed at commodore1), there's only one person who can make you annoyed: you.

[t-town-colt]

When I was a kid I played football. My coach used to tell us, "it doesn't matter if he hit you first, or made you mad enough to hit him. Don't. Because the ref is going to see YOU every time."

When I got older, a friend of my father's gave me the best piece of advice I ever heard, "It's not bait unless you bite."

In other words, don't hit back. Don't 'defend' yourself. Let it go. Or if you prefer the 'internet' version, "Don't feed the trolls". Report it. Walk away. Be the bigger, and better person. Save yourself from an infraction (they're hoping your retaliation gets you banned before they do, it's the game they play).

No one is perfect and we all cave to it occasionally, but look at it this way..

• You have to read the post.
• The post has to cause an emotional reaction.
• You have to click REPLY.
• You have to type out your, probably lengthy, response.
• You have to click SUBMIT.

Five opportunities to not take the bait. Even if you exclude the first two, you still have three.

One time in middle school a kid pushed me and started making fun of me. My mom told me to tell the teacher, so i did. He got a slap on the wrist and continued. So next time i took my dads advice, and punched him in the mouth. Sure my hand hurt, but his mouth was all messed up and he didn't bother me again.

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

• You have to read the post.
• The post has to cause an emotional reaction.
• You have to click REPLY.
• You have to type out your, probably lengthy, response.
• You have to click SUBMIT.

You omitted a few steps, actually.

• You need to login again, because upon SUBMIT, you have been logged out.
• Before you do, you need to reload the login page from https so that you don't send your credentials to Boston, MA in plaintext.
• After logging in again, you need to get back to the post you were trying to reply to.
• You have to type your post, again (or, if you're used to the procedure and copied it, you paste it in).
• If unlucky, you have to repeat the above steps a number of times.

There, fixed it for you.

Five opportunities to not take the bait. Even if you exclude the first two, you still have three.

Oh, you were speaking of NOT taking the bait? Oops. My bad.

SNy

[K'Arian]

When I was a kid I played football. My coach used to tell us, "it doesn't matter if he hit you first, or made you mad enough to hit him. Don't. Because the ref is going to see YOU every time."

When I got older, a friend of my father's gave me the best piece of advice I ever heard, "It's not bait unless you bite."

In other words, don't hit back. Don't 'defend' yourself. Let it go. Or if you prefer the 'internet' version, "Don't feed the trolls". Report it. Walk away. Be the bigger, and better person. Save yourself from an infraction (they're hoping your retaliation gets you banned before they do, it's the game they play).

No one is perfect and we all cave to it occasionally, but look at it this way..

• You have to read the post.
• The post has to cause an emotional reaction.
• You have to click REPLY.
• You have to type out your, probably lengthy, response.
• You have to click SUBMIT.

Five opportunities to not take the bait. Even if you exclude the first two, you still have three.

Thanks Sapience, some very useful advice here I am currently studying for a degree and one of the first things we learned is about how to conduct yourself online and how to deal with "internet meanies". I found this article very useful as there are some nice tips on dealing with trolls and/or their posts, and perhaps others might find it intersting, so I thought I would share it

http://lifehacker.com/164222/geek-to...ag=softwaretop