Fate and Update 10.1

[Nakiami]

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

[Pluck]

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Nice! Law Three, with a twist. =)

[Raffle]

Turbine wants money. It's that simple. Every time they make these changes people buy relics, scrolls, stat tomes, and tons of other junk from the store. And not surprisingly now that people have been given sufficient time to destroy their legendary items and grear that they now need turbine stands to cash in again. I'd also like to point out that the new single fight "raid" still isn't fixed. The reason, it's new content. There's no money in paying people to develop content. The money is made by cashing in on what you already have.

[TharbadThief]

Well, I finally was able to log in and I'm glad to see all my fears did not come true. With only 400 Fate my hunter can maintain normal DPS for several minutes before he has to drink a potion or use some power gain skills. But now I can run out of power and that makes DPSing more interesting again. On that particular character that Fate effect nerf seemed to bring more balance; I do not even have to re-trait or change legacies (thank Eru). Haven't tried other classes though..

[ChromiteSwiftpaw]

Well, I finally was able to log in and I'm glad to see all my fears did not come true. With only 400 Fate my hunter can maintain normal DPS for several minutes before he has to drink a potion or use some power gain skills. But now I can run out of power and that makes DPSing more interesting again. On that particular character that Fate effect nerf seemed to bring more balance; I do not even have to re-trait or change legacies (thank Eru). Haven't tried other classes though..

1) Do you have or use the Faron/Erebor Huntsman Set Bonus and run in Improved Fleetness?
2) Do you use a lot of Penetrating shots?
3) What legacies do you have on your bow? (Did you still have the Focus bow cost reduction legacy?)

Just curious as I'm at work and can't test.

[Gylve]

Does anyone want to work on figuring out the new formula? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out since they said they were going to keep the linear relationship between fate and ICPR (i.e. no diminishing returns, like someone mentioned above) so it's probably just some lower multiplier like 2 instead of 5.5.

All the crying in this thread is totally hilarious/sad to me. I suggested *multiple times* that they should fix things by adjusting power costs alone rather than nerf fate, which would inevitably annoy players who did things like spend TP or gold on fate tomes, spend gold/currency to replace valuable legacies with fate stat legs, use expensive/extremely rare 1-shot recipes to get fate boosts and so on. But nah, annoying customers and screwing with people's builds is much more fun, right?

[TinDragon]

Does anyone want to work on figuring out the new formula? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out since they said they were going to keep the linear relationship between fate and ICPR (i.e. no diminishing returns, like someone mentioned above) so it's probably just some lower multiplier like 2 instead of 5.5.

It's not linear, but the diminishing returns don't seem as bad as they were pre-fate revamp.
I compared my fate and fate ICPR contribution with two people from my kin (for your reference Gylve, it was Word and Voro). My fate to ICPR was roughly 2.26, Word, who had higher fate than me but lower than Voro was around 2.1, and Voro who had the highest of us three was at a conversion of 2.0something.

[Polymnie]

Does anyone want to work on figuring out the new formula? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out since they said they were going to keep the linear relationship between fate and ICPR (i.e. no diminishing returns, like someone mentioned above) so it's probably just some lower multiplier like 2 instead of 5.5.

ICPR from fate = 240 + fate * 1.71

[Gylve]

"You cannot give TinDragon any more reputation as you have given it all to Polymnie for his infinitely more useful reply."

Seriously though. 1.71? I can't even imagine the train of thought. "5.5 seems rather high. Let's shoot for, say, a third of that? That seems right. Hey, you in accounting, can you hand me that chainsaw over there? I need to do some brain surgery next."

Turbine, you need to get in touch with Walter White. His product is of a very fine quality and will definitely be better for your overall sanity levels than whatever it is you're smoking now.

[TinDragon]

"You cannot give TinDragon any more reputation as you have given it all to Polymnie for his infinitely more useful reply."

I will cut you.

[Souku]

5.5 to 1.71

well played devs, well played.

[Samsgaard]

A couple weeks ago, one of the devs said about (the then-upcoming) U10.1:

*Because I'm not entirely sure that this was clearly posted, our goals for this revamp were as follows:

- Players should be able to focus solely on dps/tanking/healing for 2 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate (In this case, about 400)
- Players should be able to last roughly 5 minutes in combat with a modest investment in fate, while relying on a mix of less costly skills, power restoration abilities, power-related traits, etc
- Player should be able to fight indefinitely with a substantial investment in Fate

So if that's what we see in actual practice, then the revamp is WAI. Of course, whether we like it is a separate question.

[Lestache]

5.5 to 1.71

well played devs, well played.

Hey now... 240 + 1.71x... this is totally a buff for people who had 50 Fate.

[Justanother]

thank you Turbine, well done.

the only thing you had to do - to release this patch on 1^st April. today - it's a bad joke.

ICPR = 240 + 242*1,71=653,82

nuff said

[TharbadThief]

1) Do you have or use the Faron/Erebor Huntsman Set Bonus and run in Improved Fleetness?
2) Do you use a lot of Penetrating shots?
3) What legacies do you have on your bow? (Did you still have the Focus bow cost reduction legacy?)

Just curious as I'm at work and can't test.

1) No to both.
2) Yes, at the moment he is traited for Focus building and Pen.Shot spamming.
3) Both crit multipliers, Quick Shot crit %, Vit, Agi, Fate, Barbed Arrow Bleed dmg. So no I don't have any Power Cost legacies anymore.

[Kongas]

It's the sheer ineptitude that gets me. There are hitherto undiscovered tribes in the New Guinea rain-forests that could have told them that a 5.5 Fate power multiplier would make power a redundant statistic. Just like you don't have to pick up red hot coals to test if they burn they simply did not need to 'try this out'. Computers aren't magic. Programs work on mathematics. The numbers were never going to somehow add up to something else even if we all wished really, really hard and clicked our heels together.

Cynical Cash grab or Epic Ineptitude?

Pick one.

[Kynlee]

On my hunter, I discarded all the power reduction legacies and used quite a many Emp.Scrolls on other legacies instead. Pre-U10.1 I could not run out of Power no matter what I did. Now, reading this thread I'm afraid to log in and see if I lost those ~100+ gold I spent on those Emp.Scrolls...

Ditto.! Not to mention that many relics were changed , ie, "True Setting of the Three Hunters". I had a several of these for the 147 icpr, which was changed to 35 fate with U10, these are STILL at 35 fate which povides less than half the icpr as the original version. Please change these back to 147 icpr or give us the option to get back what we put in them. Players are going to have limited patience with having things jerked out from under them after an enormous grind to get it. If I go after something with 147 ICP, please don't assume that you know better than I what I want/need on my character. Allow us the OPTION to make these changes. I now have use several useless relics that cost me thousands of shards to meld, relic removal scrolls to change out and thousands of marks for scrolls of empowerment ... that are now trash to me.

[PartyPlayer]

I am a lvl 85 hunter and I do not have any power issues at all. I run a pro-Focus build, but have zero legacy's that offer a power reduction. I simply maintain low power cost skills as my main 2, which I spam, leaves me with a lot of power to get involved with long fights. Currently I have 540 Fate. I see no power issues at all. Maybe all thats left for those with power issues that are hunters, is a shuffle of their attack bar. Open with fast attacks like Penetrating Shot and Quick Shot, and reserve power for other skills such as Heart Seeker on a finisher move basis, instead of opening up with Heart Seeker then switching around.

All in all there is much balance brought to power and basic regeneration values. Thanks again Turbine!

[Mildford]

Old: 550 Fate with > 3k ICPR.
New: 550 Fate with 1181 ICPR.

Well played, Turbine. Well played.

[The_Divine]

It's the sheer ineptitude that gets me. There are hitherto undiscovered tribes in the New Guinea rain-forests that could have told them that a 5.5 Fate power multiplier would make power a redundant statistic. Just like you don't have to pick up red hot coals to test if they burn they simply did not need to 'try this out'. Computers aren't magic. Programs work on mathematics. The numbers were never going to somehow add up to something else even if we all wished really, really hard and clicked our heels together.

Cynical Cash grab or Epic Ineptitude?

Pick one.

^ This!, LOL
/Facepalm to the Dev(s) that made Fate changes.

[Strikerin]

I am a lvl 85 hunter and I do not have any power issues at all. I run a pro-Focus build, but have zero legacy's that offer a power reduction. I simply maintain low power cost skills as my main 2, which I spam, leaves me with a lot of power to get involved with long fights. Currently I have 540 Fate. I see no power issues at all. Maybe all thats left for those with power issues that are hunters, is a shuffle of their attack bar. Open with fast attacks like Penetrating Shot and Quick Shot, and reserve power for other skills such as Heart Seeker on a finisher move basis, instead of opening up with Heart Seeker then switching around.

All in all there is much balance brought to power and basic regeneration values. Thanks again Turbine!

Totally irrelevant. In a solo situation hunters have not had power issues for YEARS, at least that could not be fixed by stop and regenerate.
If you are referring to raid situations, then keep in mind that a "Long Fight" is somewhere between 5-25 minutes. Your goal is maximum sustainable DPS.
With update 10, hunters sustained a near 100% increase in power pools, as well as a near-equivalent increase in power cost.
This was not really a big deal, because power regeneration was increased via fate to the point that more power was being regenerated as a percentage of use then before update 10. This is all well and good, however: With a 66% reduction in power regeneration from fate, and we can figure that is at least a 50% total regeneration reduction, were skill costs reduced by 50%?
No. Some power restore skills were un-nerfed... but just looking at hunters skills, there were 3 or more power restoration abilities significantly nerfed with update 10 and only one nerf was reverted with U10.1

Even if the goal is to simply equal the sustainability of pre update 10 hunters, the skill power cost reduction must be approximately 40%. Is that the case?

Even if hunters had the exact same sustainability, the 10.1 nerf to fate means that it is a much less valuable stat to invest in. This particularly hits hunters and burglars hard, because we took a damage hit with U10, when significant critical rating was moved to fate from agility.
With update 10 this was not a huge issue, because a slice of fate could replace 2 or 3 slices of icpr, and you could invest in high-crit items (Glinghant Bracelet anyone?) to make up the difference. Now? It is a significant nerf.

And yes, it is a ripoff! How many thousands of players now need to regrind legendary items? Rebuilding hunter legendaries to match the new reality? What is the worst-case scenario? You need to replace 2 major legacies on the bow (8 empowerments) as well as possibly replacing stat legacies on both bow and mainhand (4-8 empowerments depending on what you replace with)

That is potentially 16 empowerment scrolls just to re-optimize after a MINOR BUGFIX UPDATE.

Why was this not fixed in beta? The players called this out early, and often, and pointed at the very skill changes you are reverting as the reason! I understand the rush-to-market that pushed the update, and with good reason since the instances NEEDED to be released, but when the update makes a massive change to the game foundations, on fairly short notice, ignores the naysayers, and the REVERTS THE CHANGE after people have invested for a month? What kind of reaction do you suspect???

Combine the fate changes with some of the other stunts over the last 4 months? Hytbold instance farm.... Ooops, sorry! Second Age farm.... Ooops, sorry! First Age farm.... Ooops, sorry! Raid required for major deed and gear bugged and disabled.... Ooops, sorry!
I enjoy the game, but where are the developers and managers that should be saying "This sounds good, but here is a problem."
This is not an issue of quality control (except the bugged raid), this is a fundamental misunderstanding of their customers.

And I am quick to consider incompetence before design, because if all of these things were INTENTIONAL? That is grossly insulting to the player base. It displays a callous disregard for players effort, emotion, and intelligence. And it is a great way to get players to just say "screw this" and move on to another game.

What changed? Did WB fire everyone with a clue? Did they get moved to other projects? ROI was far from perfect, but those issues were bugs, code problems, and overtuning. That is far preferable to the current state!
It is not even a direct swap of problems! We still have all of the old issues! (See rubberbanding, bugged instances, etc)

[PartyPlayer]

Some of us hunters knew that Fate was the way to get to sustained fighting. I have zero problems....you need to perhaps adapt to the new changes?

[Vhivi]

TAnd yes, it is a ripoff! How many thousands of players now need to regrind legendary items? Rebuilding hunter legendaries to match the new reality? What is the worst-case scenario? You need to replace 2 major legacies on the bow (8 empowerments) as well as possibly replacing stat legacies on both bow and mainhand (4-8 empowerments depending on what you replace with)

It might get worse. How do you know that in 3 or 4 weeks another patch might reverse this yet again after the players adjust their gear to the new norm? Or what if something else just as vital is "fixed"? I consider myself lucky that I don't chase the carrots. But I sympathize with those players who do. I may not chase the changes and adjust my stats to accomodate, but that doesn't mean I don't get affected.

I'm still trying to refigure out my warden who I only play once every month or two. The skills I used to use that gave some morale back don't do it anymore. I'm still trying to figure out my minstrel after they changed how all the skills worked together. I'm in a daze trying to figure out what stats I need on my captain. One day I go through a fight and cream an opponent. Let her rest for a few weeks and fight the same opponent, and I barely survive. At least my guardian has been a rock of stability for the past year or so, but what about next month? Will she finally get hit like my other characters?

[TOOBxSOCKS]

i see a few hunters in here saying they cant keep their power up now..

not sure what kind aproblems youre having...my hunters power seems just as good as it was before the patch...

but to be fair, i stack nothing but agi and fate, and ignore everything else....i have like 980 fate or so...

[TOOBxSOCKS]

It might get worse. How do you know that in 3 or 4 weeks another patch might reverse this yet again after the players adjust their gear to the new norm? Or what if something else just as vital is "fixed"? I consider myself lucky that I don't chase the carrots. But I sympathize with those players who do. I may not chase the changes and adjust my stats to accomodate, but that doesn't mean I don't get affected.

I'm still trying to refigure out my warden who I only play once every month or two. The skills I used to use that gave some morale back don't do it anymore. I'm still trying to figure out my minstrel after they changed how all the skills worked together. I'm in a daze trying to figure out what stats I need on my captain. One day I go through a fight and cream an opponent. Let her rest for a few weeks and fight the same opponent, and I barely survive. At least my guardian has been a rock of stability for the past year or so, but what about next month? Will she finally get hit like my other characters?

i personally kind of enjoy the fact that they switch class skills up here and there...keep things a little fresh...after you have your class learned to a T it becomes nothing but button mashing...theres no experimenting with different things or trying other stuff than you would normally do...