We’re very pleased to announce the LOTRO Player Council!

[Lilka]

I have begun to think along the same lines as a few others. In that, I was not nominated, there for my chances would seem to be slim to none.

Did you apply? Applying is your best shot at being selected, not sitting and hoping someone nominates you

So if we are among the hundreds (thousands?) of disappointed applicants not chosen for this year's Players Council, where can we look to see the list of successful applicants when it's announced?

I think it's on Twitter that they're putting up the list on Friday.

[Thorwyn99]

Not sure I am saying this clearly - but if you made a list of the people who have been critical on the forums in the last few years - and who you think would be good representatives of this side of the debates - almost none of them could be on the council - by choice or because they don't play enough. BY choice because some just don't want to spend the time. So I think for that reason we will not see almost anyone recognizable who is outspoken and critical on the council. And it will not be anyone's fault.

I wouldn't want to be on the council either way too. Speaking out against turbine and the game for a long time/very often,
and then if they'd reach out to you to ,maybe , make a change flat out refuse it is extremely cynical and somewhat bigoted.

Not speaking for you personally but the general mentality.

[Mord420]

Or perhaps they....... And then some.

What he said. Why I didn't apply.

That, and also because many of use, while we lurk we don't play anymore. Simple explanation... we do have friends in LOTRO still, and well.... it's Tolkien!

So, if this council IS formed with the intent of getting the game back to where it feels like an extension of JRRT's literature instead of , the software itself getting a much needed overhaul to say the least, et hoc genus omnes... Then yeah I'd be glad to crack out my credit card to keep my Elves and dat rogue Hobbit looking snazzy in the latest expansion.

In fact, most of us cynics would LOVE to do a full return to LOTRO but... well you know the arguments and their respective counterarguments =P

If you want a good example to follow as a company, Turbine, check out Jagex and how they handle Runescape. Yes, they do have their blunders and end up catching their fair share of hate and outrage here and there but ... you know. As for LOTRO itself as a game, follow your own example. Roll an alt with 75% of the time on an exp disabler and bring back the Shadows of Angmar quality, and Moria (maybe darken it back a bit pl0x?).... then play one same class same race without, should speak volumes.

Anyhoo, my 3 cents.

As parting words for the evening, there may be lot of bad blood between Turbine and "the other forums", but end of the day we'd be much happier if Turbine gave us enough reasons to be LOTRO enthusiasts again.

[Kerin_Eldar]

I personally was disappointed that some of those who had the most negative opinions about who would and wouldn't be accepted didn't even apply.

Possibly because the forums' history teaches us anyone not expressing admiration for what Turbine present us with and the direction you're going in was highly unlikely to be accepted, because for years criticism was simply ignored (Radiance being but one of the most obvious): being critical of Turbine isn't exactly a great 'career move' for the prospective 'council' member it seems to me.

[Sezneg]

Possibly because the forums' history teaches us anyone not expressing admiration for what Turbine present us with and the direction you're going in was highly unlikely to be accepted, because for years criticism was simply ignored (Radiance being but one of the most obvious): being critical of Turbine isn't exactly a great 'career move' for the prospective 'council' member it seems to me.

I've found that when I maintain a polite conversational tone, that I can flat out disagree completely with the devs/mods on this forum and still at least have a conversation.

Tone and disposition carry a lot more water than agreeing with everything that comes down the pipe.

[Thorwyn99]

I've found that when I maintain a polite conversational tone, that I can flat out disagree completely with the devs/mods on this forum and still at least have a conversation.

Tone and disposition carry a lot more water than agreeing with everything that comes down the pipe.

You know even though you're a spider i'll +rep you for that statement :P

[Takekaze]

I have yet to see such a council that works longer than 5 minutes. Because whenever this is tried, it quickly devolves into people being controlled by their egos. Why would this suddenly be any different? It's how human nature works. Such things only work in very small groups, but then they're not really councils anyway. The more people such a council supposedly "represents", the quicker it devolves into chaos.

That said, I still think it's a horrible idea and knowing how people work I'm absolutely convinced that most applied only for ego purposes to flaunt the "I'm on the council" into other people's faces. It's already apparent by just reading through this thread. How many people are in here who are "anxious" and "nervous" to see if they got on it? Yeah, that screams "ego-trip!" 10 miles against the wind.

There's also no way that the council will ever be representative for the player population. The simplest reason for that is that nobody voted for anyone on the council (nominations don't really count as a vote.) Plus given the entire player population I doubt that we're past 50% of that population in regards to applications and nominations, thus making this entire thing pretty much a farce to begin with. Another issue is that nobody on the council can speak for anybody else but themselves and maybe a few friends. None of these people actually represents the community as a whole, or heck, even just a faction. They only represent minor fractions. That alone makes it a remarkably horrible idea.

Though, as long as the council has absolutely no power over anything it might actually work for 10 minutes rather then 5. But even then egos will still flare eventually. It's inevitable. I wonder how long it'll take until the first person will be removed from this council. Or how long it takes for the white-knighting, which is plaguing the forums already, finally leads to some hefty quarrel. It will happen.

The same could be achieved by sending polls via email to random account holders instead of wasting a lot of time and money (flying them all to the HQ instead of fixing issues, reminds me a lot of Tabula Rasa, instead of fixing issues they focused on getting Garriott into space, we didn't get any patches or improvements, we got a Soyuz model in game instead, yay, we all know how that worked out in the end) on something that will turn out to be a very bad idea.

I've wanted to say this ever since I saw the idea. This is all I'm going to say about it. The council doesn't exist for me. And no, I didn't apply for it, simply because I don't support this idea. Also, before you call me a pessimist, no... I'm a realist. I know how people function, I see it every day and based on that I know this will fail.

[monteeburns]

Tone and disposition....

That works both ways. I've seen perfectly polite criticism labelled as 'attention seeking' and 'tin-foil' hattery by our dear leader.

[SavinDwarf]

I have yet to see such a council that works longer than 5 minutes. Because whenever this is tried, it quickly devolves into people being controlled by their egos. Why would this suddenly be any different? It's how human nature works. Such things only work in very small groups, but then they're not really councils anyway. The more people such a council supposedly "represents", the quicker it devolves into chaos.

That said, I still think it's a horrible idea and knowing how people work I'm absolutely convinced that most applied only for ego purposes to flaunt the "I'm on the council" into other people's faces. It's already apparent by just reading through this thread. How many people are in here who are "anxious" and "nervous" to see if they got on it? Yeah, that screams "ego-trip!" 10 miles against the wind.

There's also no way that the council will ever be representative for the player population. The simplest reason for that is that nobody voted for anyone on the council (nominations don't really count as a vote.) Plus given the entire player population I doubt that we're past 50% of that population in regards to applications and nominations, thus making this entire thing pretty much a farce to begin with. .

Hmm. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the general tone in your post is that the idea is stupid, it will never work and the main reason is that all people are selfish ego-maniacs (or maybe just the ones who applied??)

Just because things have not worked in the past does not mean we should stop trying. Stupidity would be doing the same thing, but hopefully LOTRO/Turbine thinks they have an approach that will make this be a benefit to the game and the community.

I also don't think that "voting" is the solution either. In my mind we just need to answer the following questions to know if this is a good idea:

1) Are there at least 50-100 players in all of LOTRO that if selected could add real value to game design and the community. If the answer is no then the council is doomed. I'm an optimist so I choose to believe that there are at least 100 people that could be found that could make a positive difference. The 50-100 have to be both capable and WILLING to be on the council.

2) Is there are process by which 50-100 people could be selected so as to minimize the chances of the wrong type of people being put on the council. Of course there is. How much it will costs and how effective Turbine is at the process remains to be seen. But I'm an optimist.

3) Is there a format/structure by which the large number of council members can be made effective. Again the answer is yes, it done by many organizations all around the world. The effort is organized in a lot of small sub groups of 3-6 members and the sub groups/working groups prepare reports and recommendations to the council for consideration.

4) Are there gamer personality types that are more suited to being on the council than others? Are there ways to define the mission/vision of the council to mitigate some of the problems? Again, the answer is yes and Yes. For example, the type of people who get most of their fun out of hurting others are probably going to be a disruptive members of the council. At first glance Achievers might be a bad fit, but set the council targets such as increased number of players, better survey results etc. and suddenly they can be great members of the council.

But as I said, I'm an optimist. I prefer to have my dreams shattered than live in fear and have no dreams at all. Low expectations are the death of most ideas.

High expectations don't ensure success, but it gives it a chance.

Respectfully,

Savin
The unrealistic dwarf.

[Wolfhousen]

[QUOTE=Lilka;6760750]Did you apply? Applying is your best shot at being selected, not sitting and hoping someone nominates you



I did indeed apply. The day they announced the Council in fact. =)

[Sapience]

That works both ways. I've seen perfectly polite criticism labelled as 'attention seeking' and 'tin-foil' hattery by our dear leader.

Sezneg' points are very valid. This is a pefect example of something we see often. Someone making a seemingly innocuous post. Until the end. Anyone remotely familiary with current events, world history, or international politics understand that the last two words of this quote are designed to convey a clear message. Sadly, this is exactly the type of thing that often times occurs when people try to 'send a message' and run afoul of the rules in the process.

And yes, those who come into the forums with a clear agenda, post clearly false information or, at times, post complete fabrications with the hope of causing some sort of outsized response do fall under the 'provoking/trolling' provision of the community guidelines.

To be as blunt as possible, no one ever got a speeding ticket for obeying the posted limits.

[Cindir]

Speaking out against turbine and the game for a long time/very often, and then if they'd reach out to you to ,maybe , make a change flat out refuse it is extremely cynical and somewhat bigoted.

Not speaking for you personally but the general mentality.

1) No one who has been outspoken against game development decisions was asked to be on the council. So who is refusing?
This did not happen at all.
2) Sapience only yesterday said he wanted players who have been outspoken against Turbine to apply. But it is past the deadline. There was no reaching out to these players when the applications were still being accepted.
3) No one refused. Many players who have been critical do not qualify because they do not play the game regularly enough to qualify.

I just don't get your post. Who is being bigoted? It's sounds kind of extreme to me.

On a different note:
I applaud the CMs (including Sapience) on their efforts to create this and to be open to players will different views being on it. I expect much good to come out of the council - even if in small ways. I have no complaints about the process or the intent as best as I can understand it.

[monteeburns]

Sezneg' points are very valid. This is a pefect example of something we see often. Someone making a seemingly innocuous post. Until the end. Anyone remotely familiary with current events, world history, or international politics understand that the last two words of this quote are designed to convey a clear message. Sadly, this is exactly the type of thing that often times occurs when people try to 'send a message' and run afoul of the rules in the process.

Now who's wearing the tin foil hat I was infact referring to some people's blind devotion rather than anything personal to you. But let me be as blunt as possible in return, it's the same story on many other MMO forums, I've never seen any other mods stoop to insulting their customers. Each to their own I guess. Your house, your rules, just bear that it mind when it's time to pay the rent.

[Crell_1]

Someone making a seemingly innocuous post.

As someone with autism, I'd like to remind everyone that the post you read may not necessarily be someone trying to be crafty and send veiled messages. Some of us, just don't see how things are likely to be misunderstood. That's part of why you'll often see me write my questions two-fold, hoping that any misgivings or lack of clarity that the first-may present, the second will rectify.

I'm not saying that as an excuse to justify any specific statement, simply sharing it as an example of the reality I live in every day.

[Thorwyn99]

1) No one who has been outspoken against game development decisions was asked to be on the council. So who is refusing?
This did not happen at all.
2) Sapience only yesterday said he wanted players who have been outspoken against Turbine to apply. But it is past the deadline. There was no reaching out to these players when the applications were still being accepted.
3) No one refused. Many players who have been critical do not qualify because they do not play the game regularly enough to qualify.

I just don't get your post. Who is being bigoted? It's sounds kind of extreme to me.

On a different note:
I applaud the CMs (including Sapience) on their efforts to create this and to be open to players will different views being on it. I expect much good to come out of the council - even if in small ways. I have no complaints about the process or the intent as best as I can understand it.

Maybe bigoted was uncalled for.
Still, I know that they didn't reach out to someone, but your post sounded like even if Turbine reached out to the people complaining alot on the forums they might refuse to join.
Which is their absolute right but on one hand complaining alot and on the other hand refusing to try to change things is at least very cynical.
And even if they didn't get invited by turbine if they really cared they could have applied, even if they didn't play enough the worst that could happen is that they wouldn't be chosen for the council.

[Sapience]

Emails to those selected should go out in the next 90 minutes (give or take).

To those selected, let me say congratulations! To those who were not chosen, let me just say there were a huge number of applicants, more than we expected to be very honest.

Not everyone could be chosen and no one should take the fact that they were not selected as any kind of statement about your qualifications, worthiness, or perceived value to us as a customer. We just simply couldn't take everyone. I hope all of you will apply again in the future.

The final list of those who were accepted will be posted tomorrow. We'll be listing the character name they gave as their 'primary', the server they play on, and their country. The format will look something like this...


Server Name

• Character Name - Country

[Thorwyn99]

Sezneg' points are very valid. This is a pefect example of something we see often. Someone making a seemingly innocuous post. Until the end. Anyone remotely familiary with current events, world history, or international politics understand that the last two words of this quote are designed to convey a clear message. Sadly, this is exactly the type of thing that often times occurs when people try to 'send a message' and run afoul of the rules in the process.

And yes, those who come into the forums with a clear agenda, post clearly false information or, at times, post complete fabrications with the hope of causing some sort of outsized response do fall under the 'provoking/trolling' provision of the community guidelines.

To be as blunt as possible, no one ever got a speeding ticket for obeying the posted limits.

While that is all true even i agree your tinfoil hat post was somewhat uncalled for.
As community rep you will always be held to higher standards than the average poster, but i guess you know that lol.

[Burio]

Not everyone could be chosen and no one should take the fact that they were not selected as any kind of statement about your qualifications, worthiness, or perceived value to us as a customer. We just simply couldn't take everyone. I hope all of you will apply again in the future.

For your next Application it would be nice to receiver a automated message that you receive a application. Because most people will never know if their application where submitted succesfully. I will never know if my Application was received by you.

For those are choosen i wish the best!

[Sapience]

All emails have been sent. Some have replied.

Tomorrow we'll post the full list. We're giving a little time just in case someone chooses to decline and we have to pick someone else.

[taikitty]

I guess I was not chosen.

[Burio]

I guess I was not chosen.

that will be the majority. No New Mails too

[Nasty8]

that will be the majority. No New Mails too

Yep. Just keep your chins up and remind yourselves that it's the Council's loss that you aren't participating.

[Rucagorn]

Gz all ''selected'', hope you guys can make a difference

[Darlgon]

Bummer. (Keep checking mailbox in case it got hung up somewhere.) :X

Oh, wait..

Gratz to those chosen.. Yeah. thats how I should handle it. :P

[LordVoronturEU]

All emails have been sent. Some have replied.

Tomorrow we'll post the full list. We're giving a little time just in case someone chooses to decline and we have to pick someone else.

*goes to check inbox*

Good luck to all!

And congratulations to those who's already replied, accepting!