[Turbine,Devs,Sapience] - Just a quick question and answer about false info on Update

[chulic]

Dear Turbine

I think you should explain to majority of people that play pvmp in LOTR Online that there is no such thing as massive ban toward people who used multiboxing, or have been 'maybe' sparing-clubbing in lotro pre-Update11. There is more then few people on many servers on both freep and creep OOC Channels saying missleading information about HOW SAPIENCE said Turbine will ban everyone who got reported for past-present usage of multiboxing, clubing or massive kin-tribe sparings.

Now please, since i have noticed more then 500 people talking non-stop about how it will happen on May 13th, and i know and we all know Sapience never said so, neither did anyone else from Turbine stated so, can you do all of us pvmp players a big favour and just type it in here or somehwere on forum that IT WILL NOT HAPPEN in Update11.

I' am asking you this because i have seen many people talking about how they will group and send group tickets to turbine about anyone they dislike on oposite pvmp site in hope turbine will ban him because on May 13th there will be active baning of people who got reported. Now this is just wrong, and i know it's also LAUGHABLE since there is no way turbine would ban anyone judging on past activity or even ban someone because random person press f7 and sent ticket multiple times just because he dislike that person.

There is crazy amount of people who miss-read what Sapience once said, and they are now spreading fals info all over lotro world, and they even sending mass IMS tells how people should report this and that.

It's wrong, it's false and it's missleading to also new players.

Stop it and just say it - Update 11 will not bring nothing like that, or say something about this subject so at least all of this people stop dreaming and stop talking nonsence 24/7.

Cheers!

[Tyene]

You could send them to his original posts or to the thread I already made to keep his statements together and easily findable ^_^ He clearly states that they are only looking into it and that as of right now there is no change in policy.

First post by Sapience: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...92#post6754792
Clarification post: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...59#post6755059
Thread made for easy viewing: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-from-Sapience

[Sapience]

You could send them to his original posts or to the thread I already made to keep his statements together and easily findable ^_^ He clearly states that they are only looking into it and that as of right now there is no change in policy.

First post by Sapience: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...92#post6754792
Clarification post: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...59#post6755059
Thread made for easy viewing: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...-from-Sapience

All of that.

It's wrong, it's false and it's missleading to also new players.

Stop it and just say it - Update 11 will not bring nothing like that, or say something about this subject so at least all of this people stop dreaming and stop talking nonsence 24/7.

Cheers!

Since you asked...

No, nothing like this is coming with update 11.

I'm sorry if some people took my comments out of context or if they read something into them that wasn't there but ,as Tyene's links show, neither I nor anyone else here has said anything about mass banning or the implementation of changes that would prevent this behavior coming with U11.

[TellinItAsItIsLately]

All of that.



Since you asked...

No, nothing like this is coming with update 11.

I'm sorry if some people took my comments out of context or if they read something into them that wasn't there but ,as Tyene's links show, neither I nor anyone else here has said anything about mass banning or the implementation of changes that would prevent this behavior coming with U11.

The question is why are you still doing nothing about farmers/multi-boxers.

[Zanishi]

If what your saying is true, those players mindset is so over the top I can't imagine any of that happening simply because of their attitude. GM's are not people personal griefing tool, in fact they are there to make sure everyone gets to play in a harassment free environment.

It has been proven that there are too many factors involved to ban farming or multi boxing that could harm innocent players or allow people like mentioned above to use methods of simply getting their enemies banned, not the issue that was originally thought of.

Over the years this play style has been made more accessible. If people want to help eliminate farming here is some advice.

Don't harass the players doing it, especially with a bunch of false reports we have been told won't work. Believe it or not this makes you are the violator of the COC.

Help find constructive ways to protect innocent t players and the possibility to frame innocent players.

[TellinItAsItIsLately]

If what your saying is true, those players mindset is so over the top I can't imagine any of that happening simply because of their attitude. GM's are not people personal griefing tool, in fact they are there to make sure everyone gets to play in a harassment free environment.

It has been proven that there are too many factors involved to ban farming or multi boxing that could harm innocent players or allow people like mentioned above to use methods of simply getting their enemies banned, not the issue that was originally thought of.

Over the years this play style has been made more accessible. If people want to help eliminate farming here is some advice.

Don't harass the players doing it, especially with a bunch of false reports we have been told won't work. Believe it or not this makes you are the violator of the COC.

Help find constructive ways to protect innocent t players and the possibility to frame innocent players.

I laughed so hard at this post, seeing as you are on the Player Council and a farmer yourself.

The entire time I read this post, one thing kept on becoming more resonant.

PvMP Devs Do Not PvMP

[Zanishi]

Well look at it like this. Until there is a change what I do is a part of the game. So many people voice their opinions against it, but their methods do more harm then it does help their cause. As long as players take that approach you can expect more of the same.

[Tyene]

Zanishi- If it had been proven that there were too many factors, Sapience would not have said that they are looking into it. Please don't spread misinformation, especially in a thread about stopping misinformation.

TellinIt - The only official source that has spoken recently on the subject of Devs playing LOTRO, as far as I know, is Sapience, and he has stated that the Devs do play. To be fair, I don't recall if he specifically stated PvMP devs, but that is still a pretty hefty supposition on your part. Reading that along with your forum signature gave me a good laugh.

[doug01]

Well look at it like this. Until there is a change what I do is a part of the game.

Simply put, you're part of the problem. Just because you can cheat doesn't mean you should, understand?

Gratz. Council member + farmer.....LOLOLOLOL

Virtual community=RL politics, those that are supposed to be working to fix issues are, in fact, proliferating them.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Well look at it like this. Until there is a change what I do is a part of the game. So many people voice their opinions against it, but their methods do more harm then it does help their cause. As long as players take that approach you can expect more of the same.

I am truly amazed that you would flaunt the fact that you do this, especially when considering how farming was never the intention of the developers when they added PvMP to this game. What you do isn't part of the game - its a method of exploiting it, in the same way that people can escape the map (but this got prevented), or farm recipes in the Hytbold dailies (which was remedied). Your time will come Zanishi, and then lets see how you cope playing real PvMP once more.

[FangtheLucky]

If what your saying is true, those players mindset is so over the top I can't imagine any of that happening simply because of their attitude. GM's are not people personal griefing tool, in fact they are there to make sure everyone gets to play in a harassment free environment.

It has been proven that there are too many factors involved to ban farming or multi boxing that could harm innocent players or allow people like mentioned above to use methods of simply getting their enemies banned, not the issue that was originally thought of.

Over the years this play style has been made more accessible. If people want to help eliminate farming here is some advice.

Don't harass the players doing it, especially with a bunch of false reports we have been told won't work. Believe it or not this makes you are the violator of the COC.

Help find constructive ways to protect innocent t players and the possibility to frame innocent players.

This is a representative example of the players Turbine chose to be on the Council?

Sincerely,
Lou de Torres

[Zanishi]

Zanishi- If it had been proven that there were too many factors, Sapience would not have said that they are looking into it. Please don't spread misinformation, especially in a thread about stopping misinformation.

its not misinformation..... sapience even gave a clear example of what can be misunderstood as farming... and what "we're looking into it" says to one says a whole lot different to someone else....

Consider this.... farming is a play style that effects no one but the participants... in fact in every other pvp-like game it exists and on the same field has been declared by turbine that it is not cheating... it is a part of the games mechanics.... if it wasn't supposed to be the diminishing returns on death would still be 30 minutes rather then 30 seconds as it is today....

To say everyone should be banned for doing so is also saying you can determine the motivation someone uses behind their character and therefore dictate how someone should play it....

Just these few things says to me that "looking into it" is a lot more then just waving the ban hammer.... it says there's a lot of complex issues and they all have to be determined carefully.

[ColorSpecs]

its not misinformation..... sapience even gave a clear example of what can be misunderstood as farming... and what "we're looking into it" says to one says a whole lot different to someone else....

Consider this.... farming is a play style that effects no one but the participants... in fact in every other pvp-like game it exists and on the same field has been declared by turbine that it is not cheating... it is a part of the games mechanics.... if it wasn't supposed to be the diminishing returns on death would still be 30 minutes rather then 30 seconds as it is today....

To say everyone should be banned for doing so is also saying you can determine the motivation someone uses behind their character and therefore dictate how someone should play it....

Just these few things says to me that "looking into it" is a lot more then just waving the ban hammer.... it says there's a lot of complex issues and they all have to be determined carefully.

Oh please.

As I have had it explained to me, what you did was decide that you wanted to play a defiler with your higher ranked tribemates. So you started to farm your account and you got caught. After getting caught you started trolling your server by openly farming all of your accounts and created a tribe specifically for this activity, ironically leaving the tribe you had originally "farmed to help". As I understand it you have multiple accounts, even in the days before F2P. Once you farmed up a defiler you farmed up a BA as well and then dual boxed them.

As it's been related to me by people who played back then on your server, you were not very successful at it and quit the game not long after you finished farming. It was ironic to them because you explained to everyone that you were doing what you were doing for the benefit of the server. But then once you were finished and died lots you quit.

In the interim the tribe you originally had been farming your rank for, disbanded so when you returned to the game you didn't have them as a reason to farm up a high ranked toon anymore. But you continued farming, this time a spider and a warg. It was the same result where after gaining the ranks you believed to be high enough to be competitive, you found you still couldn't compete and again quit the game for a period, returning recently.

That's the story on you, I believe. Feel free to fill in the blanks and adjust as deemed necessary.

[Tyene]

What you said:

SNIP
It has been proven that there are too many factors involved to ban farming or multi boxing that could harm innocent players or allow people like mentioned above to use methods of simply getting their enemies banned, not the issue that was originally thought of. SNIP

What Sapience said: "But to your current qestion, and that thread, we are looking at ways to track those who are taking advantage of this system in ways we did not intend." He also goes on to mention that POSSIBLE penalties could be up to and including banning, not that banning was, is, and will be the only way these things are handled, IF they change their current policies.

I'm not disagreeing that it is a complex situation. In fact, if you go to the thread where I gathered his two posts on the subject, I even say that. What I'm contending as misinformation is you stating that it has been "proven" it can't be stopped. Again, if it had been proven, they wouldn't be looking into it. If you choose to read subtext behind Sapience's post, I can't stop you, but it doesn't make your assumption correct.

[doug01]

its not misinformation..... sapience even gave a clear example of what can be misunderstood as farming... and what "we're looking into it" says to one says a whole lot different to someone else....

I think when you see 100K+ renown a day by a player or a character signature that proclaims they're a farmer there really is no "misunderstanding" as to whether or not they are rank framers.

Consider this.... farming is a play style that effects no one but the participants...

The same is true for just about any exploit in the game. If I decide to glitch sword halls so that I can repeatedly loot chest how does that affect you on another server? It doesn't. Yet, its still an exploit and still punishable. When marks were first introduced to LOTRO there was an instance that you could farm 1000s of them in a few minutes by exploiting a chest. That particular exploit cause several bans to be issued and the instance to be shut down for a short while, yet it "effect(ed) no one but the participants".

in fact in every other pvp-like game it exists and on the same field has been declared by turbine that it is not cheating

First, every other pvp-like game is very different than LOTRO. In fact, so much so that a popular MMO site wrote an article about Turbine an their unique approach to tolerating farming. So using "every other game" isn't viable. Second, in a recent post by Sapience he most definitely equated rank farming to cheating.

... it is a part of the games mechanics....

As are most exploits until they are fixed. The question is: Is farming "intended game play"?...Frankly, I'll LOL at anyone who tries to argue it is. Turbine has never said farming is "intended", in fact, the opposite is true.

if it wasn't supposed to be the diminishing returns on death would still be 30 minutes rather then 30 seconds as it is today....

It's very common to kill a player more than once in a few minutes while engage in actual "PvP" (IE not farming). RvR, it happens all the time. Reducing renown/infamy in those situations is very debatable. To deduce the change as an endorsement of farming is ridiculous.

To say everyone should be banned for doing so is also saying you can determine the motivation someone uses behind their character and therefore dictate how someone should play it....

As I noted above, in some cases there is no question as to "motivation".

Just these few things says to me that "looking into it" is a lot more then just waving the ban hammer.... it says there's a lot of complex issues and they all have to be determined carefully.

Agreed, last thing I would want is a player who is actually ranking through PvP to get banned for farming, hence I agree with Sapience's statements about "look into it" and moving forward cautiously.

[Aelonaith]

I think when you see 100K+ renown a day by a player or a character signature that proclaims they are a farmer there really is no "misunderstanding" as to whether or not they are rank framers.

What makes me sad is that Turbine removed my signature cause it was refering to 'raid babys' (at the warning Sapience said there was a lot of unproper things). When i see a signature like that, and see that a self declared exploiter (yes Turbine said they'll look at this because it really isn't intented) are at Players Council all of the hope i had at player council just go away.

PS: Just because i said a true (since himself said and have this at his signature) i'll get a warning or a ban i know, but a self declared exploiter will get in no problem with Turbine

Way to go...

[xmorzan]

Help find constructive ways to protect innocent t players and the possibility to frame innocent players.

Better a thousand innocent men be locked up than for one guilty man to walk free.

But seriously, your time most likely is limited. Your "playstyle" was not intended by the devs, much like the current kbs and the horrible decision their making regarding them. Except a reversal in policy towards farming will actually be something they do right in the moors.

[Zanishi]

I am reading very little of this thread as I have not seen anyone try to find peaceful resolutions to what they consider s problem...

As for that so called bibliography of me.... well completely false.... I have been farming since 08 and completely open about it.... there was no being caught... I made a decision to play for my enjoyment and not what others dictate.... it has served me many years of fun since....

Bugs are bugs and exploits are exploits they take advantage of something that wasn't intended.... using 2 characters and fighting them repeatedly is apart of the game its your ideal that you should determined the motivation that is not.... don't tell me how to play I won't tell you not to do the things I don't like... aka camp one shots, grief greenies, and other such h non competitive actions....

As for my time being limited that's not for any player to determine.... I have a clean record and I do my best to enjoy lotro .... if turbine decides to stop farming I will help them by any means... until then I will embrace the play style just like any other that is in lotro...

[Tyene]

I'm not asking you to change anything about your playstyle. I'm merely asking you not to say that it's been proven that farming/clubbing/multi-boxing can't be stopped when that is clearly not the case. The OP's point was to clear up any misinformation out there on what is now and what will be punishable as of U11. Farming/clubbing/multi-boxing is not now punishable, nor will it be as of U11. You stating that it can't be controlled and won't ever be punished simply isn't true. Turbine may or may not change their policy, you were saying they can't.

[Okni]

has been declared by turbine that it is not cheating... it is a part of the games mechanics....

Simply not true
The Answer from Sapience is an indication that is not part of the game mechanics,otherwise there would be 0 need to look into the issue,and once a safe system is developed he also said possible lifetime bans arent out of the question for people that get cought exploiting like this.

And now,one last time,i thought council members would know these things :
Kelsan (PvMP Dev) clearly stated that farming freavers (the basic rankfarming method) is an EXPLOIT of the system/game mechanics. And as i said before,if it was intended then they would have no reason to look into ways to catch such behavior (if that that answer from sapience wasnt just a bone thrown to the community ofc,wich is what it feels like now..)

There are 100% clear cases (such as yours for example,you admit to be exploiting this system,IF turbine meant what they said serious,you`d be clearly not on the council) This is no offense against you personally,its just a nice example since you admitted to be farming. There are other cases where there is no chance of doubt wether or not it is a rankfarming exploit or not (30 r0 rvrs running into 2-3 freeps over and over,all on follow on eachother etc.)
A GM that witnesses such a event doesnt need to be a rocket scientist to know whats going on and take appropriate action.
No one demands that every reported "clubber" gets instabanned w/o investigation/proof,but clear cases like people making r15 in less then a week(or 300k a day etc) are simply not up for discussion,everyone that plays pvmp knows that is NOT doable w/o exploiting like this.

[Aelonaith]

As for that so called bibliography of me.... well completely false.... I have been farming since 08 and completely open about it.... there was no being caught... .

Well, i remember when you came back from a hiatus, and you said at Vilya underground exactly what Colorspec said....you was already banned for rank farm when Turbine was banning this kind of exploit. At least that is what YOU said at Vilya underground.

[Aelonaith]

Simply not true
The Answer from Sapience is an indication that is not part of the game mechanics,otherwise there would be 0 need to look into the issue,and once a safe system is developed he also said possible lifetime bans arent out of the question for people that get cought exploiting like this.

Kelsan (PvMP Dev) clearly stated that farming freavers (the basic rankfarming method) is an EXPLOIT of the system/game mechanics.

There are 100% clear cases (such as yours for example,you admit to be exploiting this system,IF turbine meant what they said serious,you`d be clearly not on the council) This is no offense against you personally,its just a nice example since you admitted to be farming. There are other cases where there is no chance of doubt wether or not it is a rankfarming exploit or not (30 r0 rvrs running into 2-3 freeps over and over,all on follow on eachother etc.)
A GM that witnesses such a event doesnt need to be a rocket scientist to know whats going on and take appropriate action.
No one demands that every reported "clubber" gets instabanned w/o investigation/proof,but clear cases like people making r15 in less then a week(or 300k a day etc) are simply not up for discussion,everyone that plays pvmp knows that is NOT doable w/o exploiting like this.

^this
+ rep