I grow weary from all the negativity.

[Almagnus1]

It would appear you can write well without hyperbole. Why post an alternative. Why not simply state what you dislike, without hyperbole, negativity, or attacks as best you can?

For example, I don't like butternut squash. I can't tell you why, I'm not entirely sure. It might be a texture thing. But I do like Yellow and Italian Squash. So I don't dislike all squash, just butternut. Maybe I just haven't had Butternut prepared in a way that appeals to me? Maybe someone could make a recommendation. But I do wish more restaurants I go to would offer an option other than just butternut or at least prepare it differently.

Sometimes it's really difficult to separate out the negativity from the response, especially when you observe a dev doing something **really** stupid.

Case in point, back when the fate changes were occurring, captains had their power issues completely fixed, and to the point where Now for Wrath was an optional trait. Most everyone in the class was ecstatic because it meant that we could finally drop this trait tax and start experimenting with builds that would have most likely resulted in better tanking builds.

So what did Eg do? She maintained the status quo, and gave us all of our power problems back, after showing us what it would be like to live without them. The icing on the cake was when Focus (the most useless of all of our tactics) got nerfed because I guess it was giving too much ICPR.

Admittedly, I couldn't keep the frustration out of the posting, and said a couple of not nice things towards Eg. There was also a feeling of helplessness and the inability to stop something that I perceived to be a very bad thing for the captain class that was factoring into my response.

But the point I'm making, when we get mad and start behaving poorly, sometimes it's worth attempting to figure out exactly why.

[Frisco]

I see your point but it's not the reason to deny existence a lot of content in Lotro. Unfortunately we see such denials very often and it can't be called constructive in any way.

I didn't mean to defend whoever you were referring to, I was just commenting on what I see from many posters.

[Sapience]

Sometimes it's really difficult to separate out the negativity from the response, especially when you observe a dev doing something **really** stupid.

No idea what the rest of your post says. I stopped reading right there. For very obvious reasons.

[Cazthelm]

From what I'm reading, it looks like Sapience is kind of serious/angry... never see him like that.

Anyway, Sapience, if you could answer, any clue to how "soon" is "soon" when giving Helm's Deep info?

I'm not asking what info are you giving, or when, or how awesome it could be, just a little hint about how much time we should wait :P

[DarkCntry]

No idea what the rest of your post says. I stopped reading right there. For very obvious reasons.

And that outlines the overall issue, people who believe they are honestly giving constructive criticism despite it being littered with comments relating to a perceived notion that the X (Dev, Turbine, 'fanboy', etc) is incompetent.

What could've been said as "sometimes it's really difficult to separate out the negativity from the response, especially when you observe a dev doing something that I don't feel is the right course of action", goes from a constructive comment to nothing more than another in a long list of insulting criticism.

[Fredelas]

The Official discussions forum where we put official topics on every last discussion. There isn't a single quote I've posted here that I didn't pull from there.
http://forums.lotro.com/forumdisplay...al-Discussions

Perhaps as a part of the forum revamp next month, the Official Discussions forum could be changed. The way it works now, it only ever displays the most recently updated 12 topics. (Or perhaps it's based on time.)

Right now, that makes it impossible for me to see at a glance anything that might have been discussed earlier than April 26, 2013.

It's still possible to find earlier topics if you know beforehand exactly what to search for, and if the search function is working.

[Sapience]

From what I'm reading, it looks like Sapience is kind of serious/angry... never see him like that.

Anyway, Sapience, if you could answer, any clue to how "soon" is "soon" when giving Helm's Deep info?

I'm not asking what info are you giving, or when, or how awesome it could be, just a little hint about how much time we should wait :P

Not angry or upset in any way. Just being really honest. That may be coming across as blunt or terse, but it's really just 0 sugar coating. And calling a dev or their actions stupid, as I've said before, is just not going to get you anywhere. I just stop reading when the insults start.

I would love to give you guys some Helm's Deep info, but unfortunately I cannot. Not that I don't have any (I do know some juicy things!), only that we have a timetable for releasing info and we're just not there yet. I don't even want to give a "Soon" version because I know that just upsets a certain group (mostly those that haven't realized there is a method to that madness, but still). I will simply say that it will come later than you want it to.

[bohbashum]

AShed a customer? Im a economics major and in my 4 years at the university i have never learned anything about "costumer sheding".
What business does that? Purposefully loses customers? That must be one of the more ridiculous things i have heard.

music too.

most succesful bands don't try and make music for the masses. biggest example see how beatles changed over time, you can pin that down to lodes of things, but those guys wouldn't of made half as much fame if they completely listened to there manager and made "commercial" music. just look at britian in the eurovision song content, trying to make music that pleases everyone, but in the end it's dull next to metal from finland XD

games too.

kojima and MGS5 is making me wet my pants whenever I see a new trailer. is that trying to be a CoD 2.0? no. is that going to be like the original? no. is it going to be the like the last game? it'll have parts, but tons of new mechanics and gameplay. do I still hear fan boys go "still not as good as the first MSG (technically 3rd) on PS1"? all the time.

do you keep the guy who hasn't showed up 2 hours later for the past 2 weeks? ok you have a serious chat, but if he continues, he's a liability now, he has choosen his own fate... some customers will drag you down too, it might not be common practise, just common sense to not make them priority.

There is literally a post in front of their faces and they refuse to read it (launcher). But you'll see a dozen posts in general 5 minutes after the servers go down.

saying that, I do find it hard converting the time zones still at times. although I'm dyslexsic and just terrible with those things even though I did high level maths... herp derp...

however windows clocks, took me >5minities to make an additional "lotro time" clock I always check wonder who else will do that now

[Sapience]

saying that, I do find it hard converting the time zones still at times. although I'm dyslexsic and just terrible with those things even though I did high level maths... herp derp...

however windows clocks, took me >5minities to make an additional "lotro time" clock I always check wonder who else will do that now

Recently we've been including a link to a site that automatically adjusts for the local time where you are. Click the link and you see both our time and your local time displayed with start and end times.

This past maintenance we didn't do that because it had moving pieces that were going to be up and down at different times and multiple links would have been confusing.

[Cazthelm]

Not angry or upset in any way. Just being really honest. That may be coming across as blunt or terse, but it's really just 0 sugar coating. And calling a dev or their actions stupid, as I've said before, is just not going to get you anywhere. I just stop reading when the insults start.

I would love to give you guys some Helm's Deep info, but unfortunately I cannot. Not that I don't have any (I do know some juicy things!), only that we have a timetable for releasing info and we're just not there yet. I don't even want to give a "Soon" version because I know that just upsets a certain group (mostly those that haven't realized there is a method to that madness, but still). I will simply say that it will come later than you want it to.

Touché about the name calling.

And don't worry, even if you could say something today it would still be later than we want it lol :P
Glad to know about the "juicy things" at least

Thanks!

[Chunky_baby]

There are folks that are just plain nasty (on both sides I might add - those in favor of the game, and those who are not), folks that try to offer solutions and those that what ever is said - still think nothing is wrong (mostly because it's not wrong for THEM).

All of that doesn't matter though really... what matters is that in the years since I've started playing (2007) I have never seen as much unhappiness as I'm seeing now.

So much so that it's creating factions where once there were none, and forcing some folks to air their views in other places.

In my opinion we (collective we, Sapience, Turbine, us as the community) spend way too much time wondering if people are airing their views correctly - and less time on the real issue itself - the fact that people (a LOT of ppl) are unhappy and how to fix it.

I will no doubt get asked "you don't have figures... you don't know as you aren't an employee... etc.." but the simple truth for ME is that I am not playing as much as I used too. I just don't enjoy it. I know many, many others that feel the same way. I am an officer in one of the servers oldest and biggest kins. I know a drop off when I see it. I know that we used to have 5 raids running a week. We now have to pug to fill one.

The game has changed, and in my opinion - for the worse. It's too simple, it's too buggy, it's too solo, it's too cash driven and that's just scratching the surface. How do you fix that? I think at this point, it's time to realize that it is what it is, and is unlikely to change.

The engine is old, and cranky and frankly I think they've done a good job of using it to the extreme but anymore will cause it to collapse. Re the solo side, I think Turbine have realized that the older (not in age, I mean length of time playing) style of player is not the one that will make them money. They have attacked this sensibly, in multiple directions - by increasing the ease, dropping the grouping and adding cash banks at every point.

I commend them on this in a way - they are doing exactly what they need to do to survive. If this makes them money - then so be it.

I look at it this way. In the beginning, this was a small local, fee paying pool (stick with the analogy) and the game was perfect for me. I was new to the pool (MMO's), and scared to swim with friends and be a little competitive. (group). This game, and the positive community (both in game and in forum) made me dip my toe in and try it.

I am now able to swim, and love swimming with others.

Recently, due to hard times, it's a larger, less exclusive pool - and it's free. The management have made it so that the swim lanes are broken down, and it's a free for all. I'm trying to swim with my friends in a lane, but someone's in the way throwing a ball about that they paid money for. I can have a ball too, but have to pay separately for it.

That's all fine - I'm glad he/she is having fun. I'm looking for another pool though. It's just a shame that my opinions are not valued enough to solve with actions - just platitudes - all the while getting money from those that want balls.

Even if times get better, Turbine will not go back to the older model. Sure, the odd raid might be released, and the odd good instance - but frankly the heart won't be in it. It won't get as much love as the old "Rift" might have gotten. More will be added to the store, depending on what stats say is most popular.

If you love this game, then fair play to you. Carry on. I hope you see Mordor one day. I'm going to keep logging in, keep checking back - but until things change I'm unlikely to spend as much or play as much as I used too.

I spend hundreds on this game. It wasn't a waste - I loved every penny. But I won't spend any more, because, frankly - it's not my pool anymore and is not going to change. Sorry for the rant.

[bohbashum]

Recently we've been including a link to a site that automatically adjusts for the local time where you are. Click the link and you see both our time and your local time displayed with start and end times.

This past maintenance we didn't do that because it had moving pieces that were going to be up and down at different times and multiple links would have been confusing.

ahh yeah, forgot about that. works purfectly now with opening your setup browser instead of default IE too

[TheCrossbow]

Once a week is probably too often if I'm being honest. Frankly when we've done similar things on a weekly basis it quickly turns into the same small group of people and questions and then we get the "you only answer the same questions" complaints and something good becomes something bad. Once or twice a month seems to work out much better. For the record I'm already at work on the next 20 (at about 15 currently I think)

At the end of the day Turbine does not require any member of the dev team to post or even have a forum account. I think some devs would probably quit outright if we did. These people are hired to make games not be public speakers. So the only person on the LOTRO Team actually required to post on a regular basis, or really at all, is me. So that's why a lot of information is passed through me and not directly posted.

That doesn't mean they don't read. I can walk through the dev pit and there are very few devs who aren't reading the forums or have it open in a tab, or otherwise keeping an eye on your comments at some point during their day. If they're looking for something specific they'll usually ask me to point to a thread or reach out to someone directly. Sometimes I post things on their behalf. It all depends on the day and the dev.

In fact, when we created the player council nearly every member of the team and also QA and eCommerce asked for a forum account so they could read the council forums (because the feedback there is really good and very high quality - at least that's what the team keeps telling me ).

So yes, you're being heard. Probably more than you think. But being heard and "doing what I told you" aren't the same thing. Some think they're supposed to be.

Oh. I understand completely. It isn't the development team's job to respond to all of us much, if at all. I was mostly trying to offer a filtered version of what those in the vocal club were saying (without all the negative, rude attitude attached).

Honestly, I do like the 20 Questions. I think the initial set were informative (to me). I would agree with what someone else said about perhaps turning the 20 Questions into a massive "FAQ" especially concerning the generic questions that seem to always come up.

Sadly, though, none of these negative jokers will ever be satisfied with whatever you decide to do.

[bastiat1]

I fairness to Turbine their communications have improved dramatically. The Devs have been far more definitive in their answers over the last few months. In the past it was usually very wishy-washy and subject to interpretation and people would read whatever they wanted into the responses.

In the past someone would ask "So when are we getting improved PVP?" and the Devs would respond "It's something we are talking about, and working through priorities internally as a Dev team. There's nothing planned for Update 4.2, but possibly after." Now you get "Never. Don't expect any changes to PVP at all. Period. Not enough people play in the Moors to justify the effort."

You might not like their answers, but at least they aren't equivocating. If there is anyone that feels uncertain about the direction of the game they simply aren't paying attention. For all but the willfully ignorant, the direction of the game is crystal clear.

[Damojo]

There are folks that are just plain nasty (on both sides I might add - those in favor of the game, and those who are not), folks that try to offer solutions and those that what ever is said - still think nothing is wrong (mostly because it's not wrong for THEM).

All of that doesn't matter though really... what matters is that in the years since I've started playing (2007) I have never seen as much unhappiness as I'm seeing now.

So much so that it's creating factions where once there were none, and forcing some folks to air their views in other places.

In my opinion we (collective we, Sapience, Turbine, us as the community) spend way too much time wondering if people are airing their views correctly - and less time on the real issue itself - the fact that people (a LOT of ppl) are unhappy and how to fix it.

I will no doubt get asked "you don't have figures... you don't know as you aren't an employee... etc.." but the simple truth for ME is that I am not playing as much as I used too. I just don't enjoy it. I know many, many others that feel the same way. I am an officer in one of the servers oldest and biggest kins. I know a drop off when I see it. I know that we used to have 5 raids running a week. We now have to pug to fill one.

The game has changed, and in my opinion - for the worse. It's too simple, it's too buggy, it's too solo, it's too cash driven and that's just scratching the surface. How do you fix that? I think at this point, it's time to realize that it is what it is, and is unlikely to change.

The engine is old, and cranky and frankly I think they've done a good job of using it to the extreme but anymore will cause it to collapse. Re the solo side, I think Turbine have realized that the older (not in age, I mean length of time playing) style of player is not the one that will make them money. They have attacked this sensibly, in multiple directions - by increasing the ease, dropping the grouping and adding cash banks at every point.

I commend them on this in a way - they are doing exactly what they need to do to survive. If this makes them money - then so be it.

I look at it this way. In the beginning, this was a small local, fee paying pool (stick with the analogy) and the game was perfect for me. I was new to the pool (MMO's), and scared to swim with friends and be a little competitive. (group). This game, and the positive community (both in game and in forum) made me dip my toe in and try it.

I am now able to swim, and love swimming with others.

Recently, due to hard times, it's a larger, less exclusive pool - and it's free. The management have made it so that the swim lanes are broken down, and it's a free for all. I'm trying to swim with my friends in a lane, but someone's in the way throwing a ball about that they paid money for. I can have a ball too, but have to pay separately for it.

That's all fine - I'm glad he/she is having fun. I'm looking for another pool though. It's just a shame that my opinions are not valued enough to solve with actions - just platitudes - all the while getting money from those that want balls.

Even if times get better, Turbine will not go back to the older model. Sure, the odd raid might be released, and the odd good instance - but frankly the heart won't be in it. It won't get as much love as the old "Rift" might have gotten. More will be added to the store, depending on what stats say is most popular.

If you love this game, then fair play to you. Carry on. I hope you see Mordor one day. I'm going to keep logging in, keep checking back - but until things change I'm unlikely to spend as much or play as much as I used too.

I spend hundreds on this game. It wasn't a waste - I loved every penny. But I won't spend any more, because, frankly - it's not my pool anymore and is not going to change. Sorry for the rant.

Didn't see it as a rant, so I have no idea why you are apologising. Looks to me like a well-considered post, it's not pro-Turbine, it's not positive about the direction the game is taking, but it's still a good post.

I don't think "Fanbois" like me think "nothing is wrong", it's just a simple matter of perspective. Just as you obviously feel strongly about the specifics you have mentioned, others may be nonplussed, or positive. I don't understand, however, why there appears to be a convention that negative feedback is always important, and has a "right" to be heard, whereas positive feedback is just "fanboi-ism" and can be ignored. Are we expected to lie, to suddenly say we hate feature (a), change (b), quest (c) because someone else does? Surely if feedback is important then all perspectives should be welcomed, otherwise said feedback is IMHO useless as it is not representative.

As to players being "forced to air their views in other places", I don't see why anyone is forced. Unless the "considered feedback" is simply a string of swearing, abuse, and insults. If so, yes it will probably get removed from these forums, as it breaks the rules. It's not necessary to flame anyone to make your points, as you proved yourself.

[zagreb000]

Ahhh 4 yars of University and you've never been ejected from a club/pub?
"Im sorry sir you've had a bit to much to drink and im afraid im going to have to ask you to leave...yes it doesnt matter youve put $200 through the poker machine Im still going to have to ask you to leave. Would you like me to organise a taxi for you?"
Customer shredding popular practice in hospitality. Eject one noisey/aggresive/drunk for the sake of keeping your other customers happy.
We have a saying. although its not very flattering and we definatly dont use it in front of customers, "A dog doesn't miss one flea"

Congratz! You just won the worst analogy of the month award. A potentially violent, or actually violent drunk that can cause damage to property is a parallel to a forum personality that voices his judgment on the devs and the game.. A bar has rules! So do Lotro forums. Spreading negativity is not forbidden if it does not include insulting and trolling.

I hope Turbine never adopts your way of thinking. Comparing Lotro players to violent drunks....... You need to read it to believe it.

[DarkCntry]

Congratz! You just won the worst analogy of the month award. A potentially violent, or actually violent drunk that can cause damage to property is a parallel to a forum personality that voices his judgment on the devs and the game.. A bar has rules! So do Lotro forums. Spreading negativity is not forbidden if it does not include insulting and trolling.

I hope Turbine never adopts your way of thinking. Comparing Lotro players to violent drunks....... You need to read it to believe it.

You actually enforced one aspect of the analogy though, a highly negative person who makes it their sole purpose to degrade the image of the product (in this case, the game or the company) can be as equally damaging as a person creating a very visible scene (be it violent or non) and detracting from other's experience.

[Knapsack]

For whatever it may be worth, some of us are trickling back in, a few here and there, from where we went. Step back from your issues and look at them compared to other games. Things are not so bad here: indeed they are quite good. The world is deep and broad, and it glitters with treasure and promise. Look into the pool of memories and you will see that what we have only seems lesser because it is familiar. Had you left when I did you would see old things with new and more appreciative eyes. Have some faith.

[MullaramSullaram]

As a former-player (who still keeps an eye on the forum) with a lifetime subscription and a deep love for Tolkein and MMORPGs, I would like you to hear my perspective on this and why I vented my fury on the forums, before leaving the game (despite my lifetime sub).

I have to be frank and say that I'd actually now prefer to come onto the forum than login to the game - because I dislike what the game has become so much. I, like you, never posted on the forums until the last few months before I became inactive. I guess people tend to hit the forums when they are unhappy about things and want to let the community and the developers know - and rightly so. I have invested a lot of time and money into the game.

It's great that you still feel this is a good game. I believe it used to be a wonderful game, but find it's sad to see something that was so great wither away into mediocrity.

I have to say that I have no quarrel paying for something that is of high quality, but the lameness of the content that Turbine have put out doesn't even give me a reason to continue playing for free, let alone buying new expansions and spending in the Store.

I suppose the difference in our opinions may hinge on what you and I see as being 'enjoyable'.

Who gets mad about being given FREE stuff?

I hear, from many reliable sources, that logins are at an alltime low. Confidence is low. Many of us know that the license for LOTRO has not be renewed and that we can expect cheap and cheerful content in the immediate future. Free stuff is a bribe to get you to log on. Personally, I don't play games to be rewarded for doing nothing.

I get my enjoyment from completing challenging content. LOTRO used to have a good progression for challenge orientated players which has now disappeared - and I feel this is against the spirit of adventure which I think that MMOs should be based on.

So, whilst Middle Earth continues to exist online, in all it's glory, there is a major part of LOTRO which used to cater to players interested in challenging gaming, which has been removed. Of course you can still find challenge, you have to be creative, but Turbine have indicated they no longer wish LOTRO to be a game that offers performance content and scaled reward for it's completion.

Before I stopped playing, I took to the forums with my views and some found them negative. I understand you don't share these views, but people have a genuine concern for the game and have a right to air them, in the vain hope that Turbine will change direction, which it now seems, they won't.

In the last few months on Laurelin I have seen the disintegration of some of the oldest kins on the server and, whilst there are always disenters on forums, I can see that the disenchantment with LOTRO has grown.

My feeling is that, without the old communities, the group content and the PvP, this game will just fade away if it doesn't end sooner, due to the license expiring. The ingame chat channels are becoming quieter these days, and this will have a negative effect on the community, which was always one of LOTRO's strongest assets.

My advice would be not to sink another penny into this game until Turbine clarify what is going on with the license. I appreciate this is the opposite of what you are advocating, and I hope you continue to enjoy the game, despite the views of others.

[zagreb000]

You actually enforced one aspect of the analogy though, a highly negative person who makes it their sole purpose to degrade the image of the product (in this case, the game or the company) can be as equally damaging as a person creating a very visible scene (be it violent or non) and detracting from other's experience.

Ok so lets see. Name calling.... baseless assumptions about my purpose here.... insulting by calling me a violent drunk... Yep im the bad guy here.

You are right because the actual experience is on these forums and not in the game. And i like to shatter peoples dreams when i grab hold of glff.....Forums are for voicing opinion, sharing the experiences you experience in the game. Ingame.....

I repeat, please Turbine, do not adopt this kind of thinking.
Hmmm, maybe i should even start a thread: "Unsatisfied Lotro players are not violent drunks".....

[MullaramSullaram]

There are folks that are just plain nasty (on both sides I might add - those in favor of the game, and those who are not), folks that try to offer solutions and those that what ever is said - still think nothing is wrong (mostly because it's not wrong for THEM).

All of that doesn't matter though really... what matters is that in the years since I've started playing (2007) I have never seen as much unhappiness as I'm seeing now.

So much so that it's creating factions where once there were none, and forcing some folks to air their views in other places.

In my opinion we (collective we, Sapience, Turbine, us as the community) spend way too much time wondering if people are airing their views correctly - and less time on the real issue itself - the fact that people (a LOT of ppl) are unhappy and how to fix it.

I will no doubt get asked "you don't have figures... you don't know as you aren't an employee... etc.." but the simple truth for ME is that I am not playing as much as I used too. I just don't enjoy it. I know many, many others that feel the same way. I am an officer in one of the servers oldest and biggest kins. I know a drop off when I see it. I know that we used to have 5 raids running a week. We now have to pug to fill one.

The game has changed, and in my opinion - for the worse. It's too simple, it's too buggy, it's too solo, it's too cash driven and that's just scratching the surface. How do you fix that? I think at this point, it's time to realize that it is what it is, and is unlikely to change.

The engine is old, and cranky and frankly I think they've done a good job of using it to the extreme but anymore will cause it to collapse. Re the solo side, I think Turbine have realized that the older (not in age, I mean length of time playing) style of player is not the one that will make them money. They have attacked this sensibly, in multiple directions - by increasing the ease, dropping the grouping and adding cash banks at every point.

I commend them on this in a way - they are doing exactly what they need to do to survive. If this makes them money - then so be it.

I look at it this way. In the beginning, this was a small local, fee paying pool (stick with the analogy) and the game was perfect for me. I was new to the pool (MMO's), and scared to swim with friends and be a little competitive. (group). This game, and the positive community (both in game and in forum) made me dip my toe in and try it.

I am now able to swim, and love swimming with others.

Recently, due to hard times, it's a larger, less exclusive pool - and it's free. The management have made it so that the swim lanes are broken down, and it's a free for all. I'm trying to swim with my friends in a lane, but someone's in the way throwing a ball about that they paid money for. I can have a ball too, but have to pay separately for it.

That's all fine - I'm glad he/she is having fun. I'm looking for another pool though. It's just a shame that my opinions are not valued enough to solve with actions - just platitudes - all the while getting money from those that want balls.

Even if times get better, Turbine will not go back to the older model. Sure, the odd raid might be released, and the odd good instance - but frankly the heart won't be in it. It won't get as much love as the old "Rift" might have gotten. More will be added to the store, depending on what stats say is most popular.

If you love this game, then fair play to you. Carry on. I hope you see Mordor one day. I'm going to keep logging in, keep checking back - but until things change I'm unlikely to spend as much or play as much as I used too.

I spend hundreds on this game. It wasn't a waste - I loved every penny. But I won't spend any more, because, frankly - it's not my pool anymore and is not going to change. Sorry for the rant.

Ah, you said it. I completely agree.

For my part, if I could find a game I love half as much as I used to love this one, then I'd be happy to play if for a while.

[whheydt]

I look at it this way. In the beginning, this was a small local, fee paying pool (stick with the analogy) and the game was perfect for me. I was new to the pool (MMO's), and scared to swim with friends and be a little competitive. (group). This game, and the positive community (both in game and in forum) made me dip my toe in and try it.

I am now able to swim, and love swimming with others.

Recently, due to hard times, it's a larger, less exclusive pool - and it's free. The management have made it so that the swim lanes are broken down, and it's a free for all. I'm trying to swim with my friends in a lane, but someone's in the way throwing a ball about that they paid money for. I can have a ball too, but have to pay separately for it.

That's all fine - I'm glad he/she is having fun. I'm looking for another pool though. It's just a shame that my opinions are not valued enough to solve with actions - just platitudes - all the while getting money from those that want balls.

To extend the analogy a bit...

Many people observed that the running pools were making money, so a lot of people opened their own pools. That resulted in lots of pools, many of which were going to have to close if they couldn't find more people who liked to swim (there just weren't enough swimmers to support all the pools that opened). Therefore, the various pool owners looked for ways to make pools more attractive to less skilled or otherwise new swimmers. Pools became shorter, so laps weren't as tiring, or shallower so that weak swimmers could stop and just stand up. As a result, the original dedicated, strong swimmers started complaining about the short laps and shallow pools.

[Mystarr]

Originally Posted by NukeTheLag

To take one example: When FAs were dropping from t1 raids --- When this was finally fixed, it was announced that it was a bug. To compound matters this announcement was made in a "nothing to see here folks," manner which didn't exactly help matters.

Because the simple truth is... it was a bug. Fact. Simple. No grand explanations needed. Really as simple as that. I know many would like to see us address the conspiracy theories around it, but why? Why give them any credibility when they are pure flights of fancy. Also, or the most part, it wouldn't matter. Those who have decided that the conspiracy theories are the truth aren't interested in the facts or truth. They don't want to hear anything else. So any answer other than one that matches their opinion is going to be shouted down.

Simple truth. It was a bug. We fixed it. Done. The rest is just noise.

This exchange concerns me. Not all bugs are equal and your last statement leads me to believe that maybe you dont realize how big a deal a bug like this is to your player base. This issue was was reported and talked about before the raids went live which suggests that it was noted as a bug but it wasn't considered important enough to delay release of the content. If that is true, then please consider re-evaluating the threshold for items like this (loot) to be considered important enough to delay release. I would argue that frustration over the 2nd age Durchest farm yo-yo and 1st age Battle for Erebor farm yo-yo has damaged the game in a very real sense.

My personal experience has been that player frustration with the loot yo-yo and random gold loot system has resulted in lots of people I normally play with not logging in. Before these issues, it was easy to login and get 6 or 12 online kinmates together for an impromptu 6man or 12man. Now most of the people that were in game most nights are taking a break from lotro and playing other games. Its even hard to get 6 people to login to lotro to run something if I advertise it in advance on our kin message board for a week. When I talk to people about why they arent logging in the answer I get always seems to boil down to: They are frustrated with LOTRO.

Truth be told, player frustration is probably a decent metric to judge whether or not ANY change/bug should be allowed to go live. You obviously delay updates if they are going to do something like crash the service. Crashing the service frustrates LOTS of players and you know this, so you treat issues like these as a big deal. Please consider that other issues (like poor loot distribution and/or buggy loot distribution) cause more player frustration than you may realize and should possibly be elevated to a level of response closer to issues/bugs that would crash the service. Just because an item doesn't bring the service to its knees doesn't mean it isn't causing your players MAJOR frustration and thus damaging your relationship with your playerbase.

[Farandhir]

I rarely post on the forums either but, I must admit, I read all of this because I couldn't have explained how I feel as eloquently as the OP put it for me.

I rarely read the forums due to the topics posted about either - it has got a lot worse - while I seem to play the game just as much - odd no? I used to think the "negative" element came from lapsed players who couldn't quite let go - like a girlfriend you used to go out with and still contact even though you shouldn't. Sapience's post about banning lapsed accounts now being manual might explain this.

However I know exactly how I would like to constructively criticize the only game I really play these days:

- Please add some more 6-man instances (very simply I really enjoy doing these and there can never be enough; also tweak the T2/challenge difficulty up - I want to spend a week learning it like I did with SG first time around).
- Secondly please scale all of the moria instances (very simply I think they are all really good and its too well made to leave
at 60-ish)

For me personally, I can handle everything else and enjoy it

[DarkCntry]

Ok so lets see. Name calling.... baseless assumptions about my purpose here.... insulting by calling me a violent drunk... Yep im the bad guy here.

You are right because the actual experience is on these forums and not in the game. And i like to shatter peoples dreams when i grab hold of glff.....Forums are for voicing opinion, sharing the experiences you experience in the game. Ingame.....

I repeat, please Turbine, do not adopt this kind of thinking.
Hmmm, maybe i should even start a thread: "Unsatisfied Lotro players are not violent drunks".....

I'm sorry, but I really cannot make heads nor tails of what you tried to say there...are you trying to say that I called you a violent drunk?

What I said was that people just badmouthing a product can be as equally damaging as a person creating a negative scene in a public place. Not once did I equate unsatisfied LOTRO players with violent drunks, nor did I see any other person equate that outside of yourself, what did take place was that myself and the one who originally posted the analogy attempted to state that there are cases where customers are lost without a detriment to the company and how those customers can be a source of damage on the products.