To the Player Council, What are you all doing lately? Updates?

[Milithion]

What is a person doing wrong by farming? No one has given a solid answer to what farming is. When person "X" gives his definition of farming then person "Y" gives an example that will result in "X's" friends being farmers and receiving the same consequences as others and now person "X" no longer likes that definition of farming. Everyone has different play-styles. Why punish 1 over the other?

Rank-farming: Killing the same (one or multiple) enemys at nearly the same location over and over again by avoiding to be found by others (e.g: beeing at the border of the map), while the farmer nearly never dies, or taking (nearly) no damage by the "attackers". The attakes might recreate there chars to spend more points if there ratings are to low.

[Lohi]

We ran multiple tests and discoverd if we used the suggestions we found on the forums we could very quickly ban most of the honest pvmp players,

First rule of PvP is that if you lose it means someone else must have cheated.

[timmyloo22546]

Rank-farming: Killing the same (one or multiple) enemys at nearly the same location over and over again by avoiding to be found by others (e.g: beeing at the border of the map), while the farmer nearly never dies, or taking (nearly) no damage by the "attackers". The attakes might recreate there chars to spend more points if there ratings are to low.

1. In the past I farmed at EC/grams/OR/TR rez etc. It was much more effective farming in the open than going off to a secluded area. Because I farmed in the open then I wouldn't be a rank-farmer.

2. Ignore #1 and rez camps will often fall under this definition. Many 'innocent' players would be rank-farmers and this would create an outrage.

3. No need to recreate characters who died 40 times and haven't gotten a kill yet. DR is incredibly minimal when allowing enough time between deaths.

Classifying rank farmers is incredibly hard without having negative consequences on the "innocent"

[Mirnir]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

The difficulty in defining farming and systematically identifying and dealing with offenders is why I asked my question.
Can it not be made so that people would not want to farm? If the system discouraged farming, why would anyone bother? I had made a suggestion of that sort in reply to the first 20 questions last month, although looking back, it seems poorly written and probably confusing. I'm not particularly fond of a banning solution, or a system that relies on player reporting.

As for your example, since it has already been determined to be farming, could a notification not be sent (automatically or via a GM) to the character that their activity has been detected to be in breach of the code of conduct, and a penalty has been applied. (e.g.) Renown gained for the current day so far has been removed and renown gain will be disabled (or greatly reduced) for the rest of the day. Further breaches may result in loss of all Renown or a ban.

[Eartholloth]

I say get rid of the "no public shaming" policy. It's not the mere presence of rules that act as a deterrent, it's their visible enforcement. Let players sling the mud, too. Yes, there could be a lot of name-calling and internet insults, but if this community is as great as everyone says, the peer pressure will end up doing more good than harm. If players are passionate about something, let them get it all out in the open!

And if a player decides to publicly contest some disciplinary action, Turbine should feel free to publicly defend that disciplinary action. It's inevitable that Turbine will make a few mistakes, and it's not going to kill the company to occasionally be held publicly accountable, too. It's humanizing. And it will lead to Turbine making even better and more accurate decisions in the future. If Turbine is afraid of losing some popularity contest because of a well-known player, I'd wager that any players who cared about that would ignore the evidence anyway.

There's enough mud slinging, we don't need extra. Very bad idea...

[Crell_1]

I say get rid of the "no public shaming" policy. It's not the mere presence of rules that act as a deterrent, it's their visible enforcement.

If Turbine is afraid of losing some popularity contest because of a well-known player, I'd wager that any players who cared about that would ignore the evidence anyway.

I think the only thing to fear with being able to go public with all sides is an inherent potential for disagreement about motive.

If things are ambiguous is your tendency going to be as a player to side with your fellow Player, or with Turbine?

That said, I'd like the no public shaming policy done away with. It makes it much easier to see that everyone gets treated UNIFORMLY, and makes it much harder to appear as if action is being taken because of a personal view with a poster or the points of view they represent.

[TheCrossbow]

I would be very happy about this, even if i know the guy since 6 years, and i play with him every day.

There is no place for cheaters. Its that simple.

The cheating must be confirmed by an GM who observed him, and it should happen in 3 steps: first time warming, second 3 days ban, third lifetime ban.

The problem I see with many people's approach to this problem is... flat out... a huge misunderstanding of what the actual problem is.

Farming of anything is not wrong. People do it all the time for very legitimate reasons. In a very broad sense... farming is a part of everyday life... especially in any kind of game like LOTRO. You *must* go farm any number of things in order to advance certain aspects of your character. Want to advance your craft? Go "farm" the necessary materials.

In the area of PvP... you still *must* do some "farming" of other people in order to advance... in a broad sense... you must gain X-amount of rep to move up in the rankings. Therefore, you need to kill X-number of other players (or do whatever else).

Sapience is correct in saying that just nuking anyone who is "rank farming" is the wrong approach. Why? Because you would end up catching legitimate players in the same net.

What needs to be addressed more is the behavior of those who go about increasing their rank in ways that are... not considered legitimate... or otherwise "below the belt."

But, I contend that you will NEVER... EVER... fix that problem. There will ALWAYS be those who try to find the path of least resistance to get what they want.

And... so we have the potential for a whole lot of good, respected people who will end up getting "banned" because some people can't (or won't) separate their emotion (for lack of a better word) from logic.

[mr_toad]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

#1 All past rank-farming has to be forgiven, at least in the official eyes of Turbine.

#2 Turbine would need to clearly state in writing that rank farming would be a punishable offence.

#3 If, after Turbine took a public stance in writing against rank farming and a long grace period, and people still persisted to rank farm, first suspend their accounts for a few days for the first couple offences and if it kept up, ban them for a year or more across all servers and accounts.

In summary, no one who has rank-farmed up until this point should be punished because Turbine has not officially, explicitly said they would be. While I look at current rank farmers as displaying poor sportsmanship, that's it, community ostracizing is enough and I have no desire to ban them without fair warning.

Also, I'm very concerned because my hunter has inadvertently killed a decent amount of "freevers" in the moors just to try to stay alive and if someone took a video or SS they could accuse me of rank farming and even have "evidence" of it.

[Fortinobrand]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

It is frankly disturbing that you personally and Turbine in general think there is an ethical dilemma here which requires great thought. The situation you described above is very clear cut -- the player is cheating. His perceived status as "highly respected" is of no consequence. Step up and do what's right. There is a well-established pattern of warn-suspend-ban which has worked well in many virtual environments.

Also, take a intro level law enforcement or social psychology class at your local community college. You'll learn that rules themselves rarely mitigate the actions of those who desire to break them. It is the certain knowledge that doing X does indeed result in punishment Y, reinforced by example which mitigates. The certainty that it will become public knowledge is also a great deterrent -- It's all part of being a member of a society.

But you know all of that. I think what's really happening here is the fact that most players who cheat at PvMP are paying multiple subscriptions a month, and you fear that if you crack down they will move to a different game. You have repeatedly decided to protect the "rights" of rule breakers over those who pay and play in good faith, and that's unfortunate.

[DanteIL]

#1 All past rank-farming has to be forgiven, at least in the official eyes of Turbine.

#2 Turbine would need to clearly state in writing that rank farming would be a punishable offence.

#3 If, after Turbine took a public stance in writing against rank farming and a long grace period, and people still persisted to rank farm, first suspend their accounts for a few days for the first couple offences and if it kept up, ban them for a year or more across all servers and accounts.

In summary, no one who has rank-farmed up until this point should be punished because Turbine has not officially, explicitly said they would be. While I look at current rank farmers as displaying poor sportsmanship, that's it, community ostracizing is enough and I have no desire to ban them without fair warning.

This, and entirely this. To date, Turbine has had only muddled and unclear policies on the topic of Moors farming. Once a clear policy is determined (and that's no easy feat, I recognize), then MAKE THE POLICY PUBLIC AND MAKE IT CLEAR. Let players know that these behaviors will no longer be tolerated as they were before. Once this is done (and I agree that a grace period is also wise), thereafter you should be able to, in easy conscience, warn, and if necessary, ban any player who chooses to engage in rank farming in whatever form (different server, different secret character, etc.).

[ArcticAurora]

What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server?

Should the distance of the fall even be considered a factor in the discussion? Sure the splat of irony will be significantly larger, but a fall from grace should know no measure of restraining tether other than what naturally exists.

[Lilka]

What is 'rank farming'? I thought going on to the PvP to gain points and ranks was the intended point of the system (alongside things like 'fun'.) No one calls someone who does a lot of missons to gain exp 'a mission farmer' and calls for them to be banned. So is rank farming some sort of exploit? Then the ban is for exploiting. Why isn't it called 'rank exploiting'?

If it's not an exploit, why is it bad?

edit: Oh, right OK. Mutually killing one another for rank. Surely you should just stick a debuff on? If a player is killed by incoming damage from one player for, say, two or three times in the same hour (thus this is clearly not natural PvP, unless you're very bad at it and are being stalked and could do with a debuff anyway so your stalker can't farm you indefinately), their subsequent deaths for an hour will grant no experience.

How do other games solve the issue?

[Radbug]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

Their status as a player should mean nothing if they are found to be guilty of a 'crime' within whatever due process is decided upon. Just like it's supposed to work in RL. The 'law' should be published, as unambiguous as possible, and easily accessible. Players should be made aware that ignorance is not an adequate defence.

Whatever character a player chooses to use to indulge in these activities is meaningless if the above is found to be true. The player is guilty of the crime, not the character or the server. So the punishment should apply to the guilty party.

You don't have to publish your evidence or name and shame the player. If they are well known then the jungle grapevine (AKA glff) will accomplish that; if they are not then what's the difference? Personally I'd like a bit more transparency but not at the risk of compromising the rights of the individual. That's the sticking point here I guess. You would need a representative body, a council of players say, to act as a jury...

What happens when you ban the player? Well, if due process is met you will be short of one cheat regardless of how much they spend on the game and you will send a message, no matter how obliquely, that you cannot do this in LotRO with impunity. You will also make mistakes, just like every legal system has done. Those mistakes can be compensated. You will also go a long way IMO in reassuring the player base that you still care about this game.

My 2c.

[Radbug]

What is 'rank farming'? I thought going on to the PvP to gain points and ranks was the intended point of the system (alongside things like 'fun'.) No one calls someone who does a lot of missons to gain exp 'a mission farmer' and calls for them to be banned. So is rank farming some sort of exploit? Then the ban is for exploiting. Why isn't it called 'rank exploiting'?

If it's not an exploit, why is it bad?

edit: Oh, right OK. Mutually killing one another for rank. Surely you should just stick a debuff on? If a player is killed by incoming damage from one player for, say, two or three times in the same hour (thus this is clearly not natural PvP, unless you're very bad at it and are being stalked and could do with a debuff anyway so your stalker can't farm you indefinately), their subsequent deaths for an hour will grant no experience.

How do other games solve the issue?

You don't need two players to farm rank.

Other games solve it by banning the guilty.

[Fredelas]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

What happens when you ban a highly respected player for secretly exploiting skirmishes, instances, or raids?

What happens when you ban a highly respected player for secretly making a second account to harass someone?

What happens when you ban a highly respected player for secretly buying gold from a third party website?

What happens when you ban a highly respected player for secretly accessing another player's account?

What happens when "highly respected" is even a consideration in these kinds of discussions? Should the fact that someone who is highly respected is secretly doing these things make us second guess whether it's even wrong in the first place? If so, why is the player doing it "secretly"?

And what happens when "highly respected" is replaced with "high paying"?

It's starting to sound like a member of the Kennedy family plays LOTRO.

[Damojo]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

Ban their accounts, permanently. That's what cheats deserve. There isn't any other option, or the message that will be taken is that Lotro is a cheat's paradise, regardless of the message intended.

Without publishing the company's side of the story you'll leave yourself open to accusations of bias, wrongful punishment, victimisation etc. from the player and the usual sources, but I guess you're used to that by now. And in all honesty some of them would continue to protest their innocence even with the evidence published, and that would just turn into a "he-said, she said" catfight.

[Sezneg]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

I would certainly hope that being "highly respected" had NOTHING to do with disciplinary action taken on any account.

"Highly respected" players have been banned in the past for any number of reasons (instance/skirmish exploits, etc). If they break the rules, they break the rules.

As for multi-boxing in the moors; you guys are frankly blind as to the nature of what's going on. People running multiple toons in the moors without third party macro software are FREE POINTS. They have very basic control over their characters.

However, the multiboxers that gets your PvP population up in arms... are by and large running third party software that your own TOS considers illegal. They have MUCH higher control of all of their toons; when they are able to do complicated actions with multiple toons, with clear scripted behavior, we're in the realm of what by your own policy should be bannable.

I know this is an area that is not always easy for you guys to police, you're not running backround softare to check our processes a la Blizzard. And an unenforcable rule is hardly a rule at all... but it's sad to me that you don't even seem willing to try to enforce the bans on using 3rd party botting software.

[MessyR]

Short ban first time, perma ban second time. It makes no difference what rank they are, if they are 'respected' or not (hopefully not if people are aware they rank farm) or what character it's on.

This is perfect, its not a hard debate Sapience, its very easy and straight forward.

[Bragard]

Highly respected people are that becasue they influence people in a postive way, if their cheats then the player(s) in question are makeing fools of the people who respect them, and the longer it goes on the more fooloish people are going to feel. People deserve the right to have good role models.

As for the rank farming, cant they put a system of diminishing returns in, i can not run more then 10 instances and hour, so use that sytem for pvp rank on the same player and nobody gets banned lose face, feels foolish and the whole thing can be airbrushed from history.

[Milithion]

[...]

i'm talking about banning people who do rank farming like it was forbidden at the ages of codemasters.

Sapience is correct in saying that just nuking anyone who is "rank farming" is the wrong approach. Why? Because you would end up catching legitimate players in the same net.

if you do that by a scrip that would be definitely true. That's why there is manpower required to observe the reported players whether they are doing it or not.

As for the rank farming, cant they put a system of diminishing returns in, i can not run more then 10 instances and hour, so use that sytem for pvp rank on the same player and nobody gets banned lose face, feels foolish and the whole thing can be airbrushed from history.

that wont solve anything. simply recreate the char that is farmed.

[Schinderhannes]

It's hard for me to join the pvmp discussion, if we don't have a comprehensive list with all doubts concerning a anti-cheat (-farm) mechanic/policy.
Just guessing, what might be the reasons for this non offensive approach on pvmp problems and finding single statements from time to time about it in the dev tracker, is not engaging enough for me and propably for other players, who shifted their focus on other parts of the game, because of this uncontrolled player behavior.
Dealing with trolls in the global lff is enough inconvenience while playing the game.

I would love to read an official report about the current state of pvmp. A honest evaluation regarding problems, balance, the (theoretically) future and plans on what should change and how or why not now.

Sure, I'm not in the position to demand anything, it just feels appropiate because of all the inconsistencies in the pvmp community (and its reservist-lurkers).

So far, my Wort zum Sonntag.

[cossieuk]

The first time someone is caught rank farming, why not remove all the renown and infamy from all the characters on the account. The second time ban the account.

[Squelcher]

The discussions have been very broad. Everyting from "is it wrong" to "define it", to "how harsh should penalties be".

Here's a question for you. What if we discover that someone who is a highly respected PvMP player is secretly farming rank on another server? Or farms rank on a character other players might not know about? Because we are not, under any circumstances, going to publish a list or 'evidence' (there will be no public shaming, just like we don't allow you guys to do it).. what happens when we ban that player?

And no this is not a hypothetical question.

I'm amazed at the amount of attention this subject has been getting both on the forums and off the forums... Was this always on Turbine's agenda?

It seems to me that the answer to that question is simple; you punish them as you would any other player. Whatever rule you decide to be appropriate applies to all PVMP'ers, regardless of their rank or their standing in the community. When you ban that player, why would it be any different to him/her having been banned for any other offense?

[Schinderhannes]

...When you ban that player, why would it be any different to him/her having been banned for any other offense?

They propably consider the fact of some people filling in a crucial role in pvmp.

Sounds reasonable to me, but shouldn't prevent any player from beeing prosecuted by the law. ...

[Crell_1]

What happens when...

I'd like to point out that Fredelas's list isn't a hypothetical one. I had players openly admitting to ALL of these actions except the purchase of Gold as part of an RMT transaction, but as best I could tell, nothing happened when reports were made. (Ie, the problematic behavior continued for a period of weeks/months following. At least some of this behavior I know is still ongoing)