20 Questions – Big Battles

[Roberto_the_First]

I'm sort of disappointed to see that Turbine is throwing all their eggs into the new basket of Big Battles. It could be the coolest feature ever, but it could also be a flop leaving us 6+ mos. without new content in the instance/raid system we all know and (mostly) love. It would've been nice had they done some sort of split with a big battle and then a few regular 6 mans and then followed up with another iteration of some sort of split later. It just seems like once again turbine is innovating or fixing something that just doesn't need it. Like I said, might be the sweetest thing ever once we see it but I can't help but worry and be disappointed at this point with no 'standard' instance/raid (which the game DESPERATELY needs ATM).

Replace "big battles" with "mounted combat", and you have the same requests made when Rohan was discussed. I'm pretty sure if you replaced it with "legendary items", you'd have the same thing from when Moria was discussed.

I for one am going to reserve judgement until I see these big battles in action, whenever that may be.

[PKCrichton]

Conversely. I'd like to see Orthanc untouched. It will be different enough with the vast class skill changes. Every instance I've seen scaled has been a shadow of its former on-level self.

We were told back when RoI came out that all instance content moving forward had scaling built into it. So that said if Orthanc could simply have this enabled to let us change its level and thus have the rewards scale leaving the rest of it untouched I would love it. Now that said we know that you can no longer have any locs placed on content so they would have to break it up similar to how they did OD. Given only those changes personally I'd love it so it would still have the same challenges associated with it.

[Caernach]

Going to keep this short and simple.

WOOHOO!! This sounds fun and exciting, and I can't wait!

[Crell_1]

We were told back when RoI came out that all instance content moving forward had scaling built into it. So that said if Orthanc could simply have this enabled to let us change its level and thus have the rewards scale leaving the rest of it untouched I would love it. Now that said we know that you can no longer have any locs placed on content

Splitting it up means you can no longer accomplish the 'All of the instance in one sitting' deed or title.

This means locks or something else has to give.

Best to leave it be until such time as this can be resolved without a loss of functionality.

[bigsix66]

I for one am going to reserve judgement until I see these big battles in action, whenever that may be.

WHAT?! You don't want to wail and beat your breast and rend your garments before actually seeing it in action? What kind of weirdo are you, anyway?

[SNy-lotrolinux-EU]

Replace "big battles" with "mounted combat", and you have the same requests made when Rohan was discussed. I'm pretty sure if you replaced it with "legendary items", you'd have the same thing from when Moria was discussed.

I for one am going to reserve judgement until I see these big battles in action, whenever that may be.

Uhm, so. I don't know about you, but legendary items are widely considered fail, mounted combat is mostly, as well. So... that doesn't leave too much room for reserving judgement, now, does it?
I mean, like, level 10, untouched wrt. to skills, traits, etc.? Yeah, I can totally see how that will work out (not!).

SNy

[Lohi]

2) The medal system sounds intriguing; how will the medal that is rewarded be calculated? Hopefully it will be more sensitive in comparison to Guild Wars 2's medal system by which a gold medal means you only need to do one hit to an enemy.

This all sounds vaguely like the "open quests" in some games like champions online or star trek online. Since anyone could join there just by being present, the rewards were based on each individual player's participation. Number of enemies you killed or significantly damaged, number of people you rescued, etc. So I could see this system work that way; if we defeat 30 enemies and player A the level 95 champion killed 20 of them with no help from others, and player B the level 10 champion only managed to assist with 10 of them, then player A gets the most rewards. Where it fell down in those other games is in how you reward non-DPS actions like healing, debuffing, mezzing, tanking, etc. Would be bad to insist that everyone be strongly DPS traited just to get worthwhile rewards.

[Lohi]

I do like the sound of this, and I hope the final implementation encourages groups to try for the harder objectives rather than finding an easy mode or fast run way to get what you want.

Unless it means that fast runs with medium rewards are better than a slow run with the best rewards, because you can do many more of the fast runs. Sort of like Sambrog; sure the better drops are rare compared to other instances, but you get so many medallions when you can run it 5 to 10 times quickly in a row.

[TheStormKing]

I am quite optimistic about the Big Battle technology. Here's to hoping my face melts.

[Lohi]

Hopefully prior to, or concurrently with the Pre-order announcement these 'revisited requirements' can be published.

Pre-purchasing is optional remember, and you don't need to buy it the first day. You can wait a long time and still get the minor pre-order bonuses; and if you don't want the pre-order stuff you can wait even longer (too many people confused the normal extras in the three packages as pre-order only, which was not true; ie, the 6th bag was not a pre-order bonus and yet I still run into people that believe it was). Of just skip pre-order altogether and use TP to get the expansion free if you're VIP.

[cossieuk]

This all sounds vaguely like the "open quests" in some games like champions online or star trek online. Since anyone could join there just by being present, the rewards were based on each individual player's participation. Number of enemies you killed or significantly damaged, number of people you rescued, etc. So I could see this system work that way; if we defeat 30 enemies and player A the level 95 champion killed 20 of them with no help from others, and player B the level 10 champion only managed to assist with 10 of them, then player A gets the most rewards. Where it fell down in those other games is in how you reward non-DPS actions like healing, debuffing, mezzing, tanking, etc. Would be bad to insist that everyone be strongly DPS traited just to get worthwhile rewards.

Surely this also encourages selfish game play, why do something to help others if it reduces your overall reward.

[Crell_1]

Pre-purchasing is optional remember, and you don't need to buy it the first day. You can wait a long time and still get the minor pre-order bonuses.

Yes. Purchasing ahead of time is optional, but if I continue to play long term after Helms deep, I will likely want the pre-order perks. Just like lots of players who levelsmultiple characters routinely benefits from the +XP pocket. However if the games requirements change, I may not play long term as a result.

Short of acquiring access to the beta, there is no way to guarantee Helms Deep performances in these spaces apart from testing metrics given by Turbine, and waiting until launch means not getting any pre-order bonuses.

Some of us still use our actual pre-order bonuses. The exclusive Skirmish Soldier Appearance. The cloaks from Rise of Isengard.

Just because others do not pay attention to what is included in each bundle doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to determine as best we can what our enjoyment of the product will be before acquiring it.

Perhaps they'll do a 'Can You Run it' style plugin. or perhaps a limited frame-rate test-animation app. Who knows. Hopefully they'll have something.

[Elemiire]

No. There are no plans to do so. Big Battles are our new instanced content.

So... will this be the killing blow to the few remaining raiding kins and raid focused players?


I am honestly extremely disappointed, but can't say I'm surprised.

[Enfiladed]

Replace "big battles" with "mounted combat", and you have the same requests made when Rohan was discussed. I'm pretty sure if you replaced it with "legendary items", you'd have the same thing from when Moria was discussed.

I for one am going to reserve judgement until I see these big battles in action, whenever that may be.

I disagree that I'm pre-judging the the content, simply disappointed in the announcement that they have committed to 'all-in' on Big Battles instead of doing some sort of split between 'standard' instances and Big Battles. Big Battles could be amazing, it certainly sounds like it has potential. Big Battles might be awesome if say my small kin can do a 'raid' with only 8 people for instance, but it doesn't remove my disappointment that there are not going to be any traditional 6 and 12-mans after a year very light on 6 and 12-man content. I think had they dropped a 6-man or 2 and a full 12-man multi-boss raid (or even scaled some stuff) with Farlow or if they announced Moria 6-mans/Driagoch/ToO/Rift were scaling with HD (still a possibility as this announcement was focused on BB of course) then my perspective on this announcement would be total different. Again not saying "content will SUCK! GAME IS DOOMED!!!!!!11" just expressing reasonable disappointment that there will be no 'standard/traditional' style instances concurrent with the Big Battles (which I will say again have potential and I hope are awesome).

To the point of replacing Big Battles with mounted combat and legendary items, I feel that even if a person did not like those 2 additions to the game they weren't the some total of "endgame" with their respective expansions. Mounted combat was especially a sort of side diversion from the end game. A person could have mostly ignored their war-steed/MC and still do all the 6 and 12 man instances without any impedance. Big Battles are the things that those people who enjoy "endgame" will be doing for the next 6-12 mos. No judgement on if that will be good or bad, but it will be the only thing to do for the 'raider.' Even when they added skirmishes they still added some regular instances too and look at how under supported skirmishes are now. I'm just saying 'why not both at once?'

[Lohi]

Okay 1st thing wrong here, anyone NOT at their level cap won't know how to play their class to the full extent therefore this auto scale is horrible idea.

So just don't group with those players, problem solved. I don't see what the big deal is, everyone has to learn sometime and discriminating and shunning them from the start will just discourage them. Most high end raids already are highly selective and keep people out who don't match gear checks or trait checks (though not as much as in some other games), so nothing will be changing in that regard.

What's the worst thing that can possibly happen if you get a noob joining you for one run?

And from the sound of it I don't think knowing your class will be a big factor compared to just doing DPS.

[Lohi]

One thing I'm very worried about with these instances being useable by lvl 10 characters, is how little functionality a lvl 10 character has, and what that means can be included in the instances. a level 10 character will have no way to deal with corruptions, or interrupts, and most will not have 'bread and butter' skills for the class that are earned at higher levels and shape what they are capable of.

Yes, true. But they already said that these character won't be as good as if they were level 95. That is, they won't be the perfect team mates. Not a big deal unless you demand perfection. Ok, so they can't interrupt or remove corruptions, which means some things might be a bit harder. This is not like a standard boss fight where you must interrupt at 10K or the group wipes or that sort of thing. It's more like a skirmish. I've been in plenty of skirmish raids where a large chunk of the players really don't know how to use all these skills to their advantage and yet we succeeded just fine with a few hiccups.

The difference from skirmishes I presume is that you have the ability to do better than just succeed. The better you do the more medals you get. If you do average you only get average stuff. Thus if you must have the best stuff always, then never invite someone who's not been personally vetted by you. If you just want to have fun with some friends who are low level then you are allowed to do this as well.

[spelunker]

Yes, true. But they already said that these character won't be as good as if they were level 95. That is, they won't be the perfect team mates. Not a big deal unless you demand perfection. Ok, so they can't interrupt or remove corruptions, which means some things might be a bit harder. This is not like a standard boss fight where you must interrupt at 10K or the group wipes or that sort of thing. It's more like a skirmish. I've been in plenty of skirmish raids where a large chunk of the players really don't know how to use all these skills to their advantage and yet we succeeded just fine with a few hiccups.

The difference from skirmishes I presume is that you have the ability to do better than just succeed. The better you do the more medals you get. If you do average you only get average stuff. Thus if you must have the best stuff always, then never invite someone who's not been personally vetted by you. If you just want to have fun with some friends who are low level then you are allowed to do this as well.

Well, if everything available at end-game can be completed by groups where "a large chunk of the players really don't know how to use all these skills to their advantage" I'll be VERY dissapointed. The Erebor raids might lack imagination or depth on t2c, but at least 2/3 are a challenge. Skraiding and the vast majority of scaled instances are complete garbage for anyone in the instance who cares about more than the loot, or simply socializing.

Obviously a lot of things could be different with class revamps, but if these instances can be completed when the healer you brought is level 10 and has 1 healing skill, why bother with an instance at all? And if they can't be completed with a lvl 10 healer, why let lvl 10s in in the first place? Hopefully the class revamps take care of this issue.


Skirmishes have optional encounters too...

[Valamar]

That might be able to be done with something like http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/cyri. It's a pretty useful tool to see if you can run it.

It's a cute idea, however System Requirements Lab does NOT support Mac in any way shape or form.

[Egervor]

So... will this be the killing blow to the few remaining raiding kins and raid focused players?


I am honestly extremely disappointed, but can't say I'm surprised.

First I would like to apologize for my bad english. I've given my best

This will be the end of every raiding kin. where is the challenge when lvl 10 characters with 6-8 skills and no plan about their class can do this instance?
why should I grind this "great battle" for great armour sets when i dont need them so master the t2 challenge/endgame content? for what i need first ages?!
because they look golden?! for the pvp where everybody now makes the rankes with rangcheating because turbine has no interesting in good pvp and close the dailystats/pvp-forums/altfinder to make it impossible for the community to see who is a rangcheater ?
this makes the whole "best in slot equipment" pointless. how shall I more excited about a game if I can do everything at once.

I remember a game which has interesting quests (not kill 10 monsters and take 10 coats), great really CHALLENGING raids like Dâr Narbugud, The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu, The Vile Maw, Barad Guldur (not this scaled s***), Ost Dunhoth, The Tower of Orthanc.
not the best but a sound pvp and with the best community i ever has seen in a game. The game I know is death. now it's lord of the easymodegrindandpaytowincasual online. great work guys.
my whole kinship will cease to play lotro.

greetings from germany

[Valamar]

If I'm level 10 and I'm talking to Gandalf in the prancing pony, how can I in an eyeblink be fighting in Helm's Deep? Its bad enough we have no conception of space anymore, just instance joining to and fro. Now we have no tether to time either?

Lol: Can you say T.A.R.D.I.S boys and girls...?

[Lohi]

My understanding from all of this is that there is no difference between the two since they are all lvl 95 battles. The only 'difference' is that your rewards are scaled appropriately for your level.

The other difference is that the group may get lesser rewards also since the lower level players are not as adaptable. There is no indication that adding a level 10 player will allow you to run the battles at top performance. It also implies that if you have level 95 players who play as if they were a scaled up level 10 player, you will also not get the max rewards. I don't see much difference here from the currentl grouping style: everyone will pre-form their groups then start instance finder, the best groups will only accept the best players, and the players who just want to have fun will invite whoever wants to come only now there is a larger pool to choose from.

[jwbarry]

Well, if everything available at end-game can be completed by groups where "a large chunk of the players really don't know how to use all these skills to their advantage" I'll be VERY dissapointed. The Erebor raids might lack imagination or depth on t2c, but at least 2/3 are a challenge. Skraiding and the vast majority of scaled instances are complete garbage for anyone in the instance who cares about more than the loot, or simply socializing.

Obviously a lot of things could be different with class revamps, but if these instances can be completed when the healer you brought is level 10 and has 1 healing skill, why bother with an instance at all? And if they can't be completed with a lvl 10 healer, why let lvl 10s in in the first place? Hopefully the class revamps take care of this issue.


Skirmishes have optional encounters too...

It is true that to allow level 10s in and for them to have a fun and satisfying experience and want to play more that success in a Big Battle won't be an overly difficult thing to achieve.

It won't be all that hard to 'win'.

That's why we're introducing the medal system. What we're doing is basically grading you and your group every time you play the space. Each action you take, or don't take, thing you defend or don't, objective you succeed at or fail will add or remove points from your score. I would expect most level 10s, on their own without having many Promotions, to get a grade of D, a bronze medal. Enough to pass and get some measure of reward but not really anything to brag about. While the top end level 95 players who are kitted out and have a lot of Promotions are pushing the boundaries and attempting to get As, platinum medals and the best rewards the system has to offer.

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.

[spelunker]

First I would like to apologize for my bad english. I've given my best

This will be the end of every raiding kin. where is the challenge when lvl 10 characters with 6-8 skills and no plan about their class can do this instance?
why should I grind this "great battle" for great armour sets when i dont need them so master the t2 challenge/endgame content? for what i need first ages?!
because they look golden?! for the pvp where everybody now makes the rankes with rangcheating because turbine has no interesting in good pvp and close the dailystats/pvp-forums/altfinder to make it impossible for the community to see who is a rangcheater ?
this makes the whole "best in slot equipment" pointless. how shall I more excited about a game if I can do everything at once.

I remember a game which has interesting quests (not kill 10 monsters and take 10 coats), great really CHALLENGING raids like Dâr Narbugud, The Rift of Nûrz Ghâshu, The Vile Maw, Barad Guldur (not this scaled s***), Ost Dunhoth, The Tower of Orthanc.
not the best but a sound pvp and with the best community i ever has seen in a game. The game I know is death. now it's lord of the easymodegrindandpaytowincasual online. great work guys.
my whole kinship will cease to play lotro.

greetings from germany

Plenty good English, and a great post.

It is true that to allow level 10s in and for them to have a fun and satisfying experience and want to play more that success in a Big Battle won't be an overly difficult thing to achieve.

It won't be all that hard to 'win'.

That's why we're introducing the medal system. What we're doing is basically grading you and your group every time you play the space. Each action you take, or don't take, thing you defend or don't, objective you succeed at or fail will add or remove points from your score. I would expect most level 10s, on their own without having many Promotions, to get a grade of D, a bronze medal. Enough to pass and get some measure of reward but not really anything to brag about. While the top end level 95 players who are kitted out and have a lot of Promotions are pushing the boundaries and attempting to get As, platinum medals and the best rewards the system has to offer.

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.

I can't say this removes my concerns, but it alleviates this one somewhat, thank you for clarifying.

[Lohi]

This will be the end of every raiding kin. where is the challenge when lvl 10 characters with 6-8 skills and no plan about their class can do this instance?

Because this is not how it will work. Yes the level 10s will be able to complete it; however the level 95s will be able to complete it with a higher grade and more rewards! The better level 95 players will do even better with even better rewards! That is, they will keep score as you do the instance and this score is denoted by the medals you get. If you slack off and only play half heartedly then you only get half hearted rewards. If you do your best then you get better rewards. Presumably there will always be the opportunity to do even better than you did last time, and never a maximum score.

Consider how it is today. People run Sambrog with the challenge becuase it's easy. There is no built in encouragement to do even better than you did before. Once you've figured out what to do then you just repeat those same actions next time. Eventually it gets easy enough for some players that the challenge isn't challenging anymore; they've memorized what to do, they've got gold gear, etc.

Now imagine if it was open ended. Forges of Khazad Dum challenge had a 30 minute time to get to the last boss and defeat him. What if you got better loot at the end if you could defeat him in only 25 minutes, or 20 minutes, or 15? Ie, always encouraging the players to do better than they did the last time.

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you,

Skirmishes tried something like this. The marks you get at the end do depend on how many NPCs you have left alive. However most Skirmish raids I've been on basically ignored that. They didn't care about marks or medallions, they wanted a good dice roll at the final chest. So they'd let the bounders in Tuckborough die.

Now if the final reward is based on this other stuff then I think it will be very interesting. No longer a race to get to the final chest fast so that you can rerun it again.

[Eomon]

It is true that to allow level 10s in and for them to have a fun and satisfying experience and want to play more that success in a Big Battle won't be an overly difficult thing to achieve.

It won't be all that hard to 'win'.

That's why we're introducing the medal system. What we're doing is basically grading you and your group every time you play the space. Each action you take, or don't take, thing you defend or don't, objective you succeed at or fail will add or remove points from your score. I would expect most level 10s, on their own without having many Promotions, to get a grade of D, a bronze medal. Enough to pass and get some measure of reward but not really anything to brag about. While the top end level 95 players who are kitted out and have a lot of Promotions are pushing the boundaries and attempting to get As, platinum medals and the best rewards the system has to offer.

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.

Best thing I've read today imo. Hopefully we get more of these "better items", rather than just getting the same items achievable at lower difficulty more quickly. Looking much more hopeful now after that though