20 Questions – Big Battles

[Gardhik]

Hi,


A little concerned about tanking in this "Big battles". What could be the meaning to grab a tank as we need to be in different places, probably at the same time. If we have to split in 3 or 4 groups in a 12 mans set up and that battle can be done by level 10 people, I don't see the use of a tank, tank don't exist at level 10. As a whole, if there are no boss, what do I do with my Guard' ? I fear I will have a lesser role in this.

[Feraxks]

Hi,


A little concerned about tanking in this "Big battles". What could be the meaning to grab a tank as we need to be in different place. If we have to split in 3 or 4 groups in a 12 mans set up and that battle can be done by level 10 people, I don't see the use of a tank, tank don't exist at level 10. As a whole, if there are no boss, what do I do with my Guard' ? I fear I will have a lesser role in this.

Battle can be done by a level 10 that has been scaled up to 95...just to be clear. In all honesty, its way too early to even guess how these Big Battles might play out. Iwould suspect (at least I hope) that the battles are designed in such a way that all classes will be useful. Turbine certainly has no reason to minimize anyone's fun, be they tank, healer, DPS or support.

[Cefely]

Just curious as to why so many people are entirely committed to the standard MMO group content (the holy trinity, tank/healer/dps) that has been used for over a decade now (yawn, yea, yea we all know our roles by now I would hope: know your taunt skills & use them accordingly; heal the tank as lightly as you can, ignoring the rest in order; shut off your dps if you get aggro & run to the tank, etc, it's really not that hard of a concept after all these years) and why so many people are completely writing off, dismissing, rejecting any effort to inject a different concept for end-game MMO gaming? I may eat my words & be completely let down, but can we just give it a chance before we all judge it?

I realize new ideas & changes to the normal routine at first can incite a riot or whatever, but come on, guys.

If you want yet another IC based on the same old boring combat tactics, I get it, it's your comfort zone. But maybe this new mechanic they are trying to come up with will be OK, and (far-fetched i know, but I'm trying to remain hopeful) it might even be innovative & challenging, who knows?

I personally have issues with how they are handling the lore issue with HD (completely ignoring it, so it seems) and that bothers me more than the mechanics of the actual battle, tbh.

One more thought....everyone saying level 10's will be thrown into battle without their proper skills, remember we are getting a completely revamped skill-tree system as well (bleh), so you have no idea what tanking, healing, etc skills anyone will have to utilize at level 10.

[Feraxks]

Sigh... So Turbine did go ahead and screw the pooch and is setting up the Battle of the Hornburg to allow bunches of random non-Rohirrim appear.

How about changing the the game to "LotR Inspired" since it is clearly no long actually based on LotR?

Were you really expecting the Battle of the Hornburg to be done as a session play? That would be wholly unsatisifying to most everyone else.

[Cefely]

Were you really expecting the Battle of the Hornburg to be done as a session play? That would be wholly unsatisifying to most everyone else.

/agreed. No way they could have done this as a session play, it's way too big for that (lore-wise and logistics-wise)

[Ragekiss]

So no traditional instance cluster in HD. I am not surprised - but this is a bad thing. More players will leave the game. It is like with the Battles, you decided because those are instanced, you don't even need to bother working on an Instance Cluster.

I am sure some players would be happy if you just put out good PVE content and zones, and good traditional instances including good raids. I will have to wait and see - but want to give the feedback that this doesn't sound so great to me, and it sounds like another small expansion because you don't have enough money to spend creating good group content. A full expansion would have 1) the Battles, 2) good PVE content, 3) good raid and group content. #3 is missing.

Yes I know the Battles are group content, but this is like if you decided to give mounted combat in RoR and then said "we have this great new thing, so we are deciding not to offer you any group content in the expansion this time".

[Khafar]

I think Sap said there will be no IC, because the "IC system" has been replaced by the "big battle" system.

Only for the expansion. jwbarry said this doesn't mean they won't do any more ICs or skirmishes in the future, just that Helm's Deep will feature "Big Battles" instead.

Were you really expecting the Battle of the Hornburg to be done as a session play? That would be wholly unsatisifying to most everyone else.

Agreed. There are some things that are simply going to have to bend for the sake of providing satisfying entertainment to their paying customers, and one of them is that people's own characters (where all of their emotional and time investment is) cannot be sidelined for iconic battles. Session play is fine for telling stories from times past, for example... participating in a memory of the Battle of the Five Armies would obviously need to be some sort of Session Play. But the very center of this expansion is "Helm's Deep". They cannot very well tell us to park our characters in the database for the key moments of the expansion.

Khafar

[usernamealreadyinuse]

I read the blue posts in this thread but totally skipped over everything else, I apologise if anyone has covered this already.


I have a question regarding this technology.

Not too long ago, I spent some time in LM seeing what it would be like to survive without killing anything. I found that it was not possible. Not because the mobs were too difficult to deal with, but because the game turned into a powerpoint by about the 6-7th minute. My PC is well above the minimum requirements. I play on very high dx11 and usually experience a very solid framerate. Its always been a thing with lotro that the performance takes a massive hit when there is a lot of stuff going on. Ivar was pretty bad for that, so was fire/frost a bit and the moors has always chugged a little bit with large groups around.

Beyond just raising the minimum requirements, I feel like this is going to need to come with significant engine optimisation. So yeah. Is that a thing?

[Elemiire]

Were you really expecting the Battle of the Hornburg to be done as a session play? That would be wholly unsatisifying to most everyone else.

Actually, lore-wise, yes.

None of our characters should be there AT ALL. I hate to be the Lore Police but that IS lore breaking in its finest.

But then again, we're having level 10 characters, fresh out of the intro, fighting in Rohan.... that doesn't make any sense either, but it's being done.

[Aedfrith]

As for how well it will work with a lvl 10 playing with a bunch of lvl 85 to 95, we will have to wait and see.

Don't forget that the whole skills system is being revamped. Level 10s may be able to make more meaningful contributions, though if this means that ALL your skills are available from the outset, it would be a bit sad to have no new skills to look forward to as one advances. Example - my 44 Loremaster is about to pick up his 2nd legendary (Ents go to War) and is looking forward to tree-stompin' AOE action.

Would be interesting to hear feedback about this very issue - what skills can an upscaled level 10 toon use?

[Hostet617]

[QUOTE=jwbarry;6868935

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.[/QUOTE]

Not going to lie, this sounds so amazing. I can't wait.

[Grimdi]

Don't forget that the whole skills system is being revamped. Level 10s may be able to make more meaningful contributions, though if this means that ALL your skills are available from the outset, it would be a bit sad to have no new skills to look forward to as one advances. Example - my 44 Loremaster is about to pick up his 2nd legendary (Ents go to War) and is looking forward to tree-stompin' AOE action.

Would be interesting to hear feedback about this very issue - what skills can an upscaled level 10 toon use?

My random guess is that all classes will have basic versions of their core skills by level 10. Higher levels will then mostly unlock more specialized and/or powerful versions of those skills or allows people to add additional effects (like some of the current class-traits). The tree system will probably used to limit the number of "active" Skills available. Just speculation though, I'd too appreciate real infos

[CroVoid]

Hmmm at the first lok, it sounds kinda awsome. But what about drops? Will low lvl players be able to get lvl95 drops? More Big Battles? I am quite certain that ppl will again do only the shortest, will harder/longer get better prize?

[phobossion]

Just curious as to why so many people are entirely committed to the standard MMO group content (the holy trinity, tank/healer/dps) that has been used for over a decade now (yawn, yea, yea we all know our roles by now I would hope: know your taunt skills & use them accordingly; heal the tank as lightly as you can, ignoring the rest in order; shut off your dps if you get aggro & run to the tank, etc, it's really not that hard of a concept after all these years) and why so many people are completely writing off, dismissing, rejecting any effort to inject a different concept for end-game MMO gaming? I may eat my words & be completely let down, but can we just give it a chance before we all judge it?

I realize new ideas & changes to the normal routine at first can incite a riot or whatever, but come on, guys.

If you want yet another IC based on the same old boring combat tactics, I get it, it's your comfort zone. But maybe this new mechanic they are trying to come up with will be OK, and (far-fetched i know, but I'm trying to remain hopeful) it might even be innovative & challenging, who knows?

I personally have issues with how they are handling the lore issue with HD (completely ignoring it, so it seems) and that bothers me more than the mechanics of the actual battle, tbh.

One more thought....everyone saying level 10's will be thrown into battle without their proper skills, remember we are getting a completely revamped skill-tree system as well (bleh), so you have no idea what tanking, healing, etc skills anyone will have to utilize at level 10.

Hmm, for one, I do not want any "new" ideas just because any implementation I've seen that has boasted about "no trinity", "versatile roles" etc turned to be just a mindless DPS fest with little player cooperation. GW2 actually turned me into a huge trinity defender

[Silmelin]

The things I have always found boring in games/books/movies are war and fighting, but the skirmishes, instances and raids have as far as I've leveled had nice story and quests so I actually like them a lot in this game. Which is why I'm looking forward to this new Big Battles thing. It's great that it can be soloed because people always rush through things and don't give me time to follow the story, and now I'll be able to go through it alone first, and can group up later

Also looking forward to be able to join up with my level 20+ friend

It's not just that you're still standing then when the wall blows up. It's how many Rohirrim are still standing with you, how many banners and flags of Rohan still fly, how many injured soldiers were you able to protect, how long did it take to dam up the culvert and how many workers were lost doing it, did your catapults survive the battle, how many pieces are the gatehouse doors in, how many supplies did the enemy burn, etc etc etc. Each of those events and more contribute to your overall grade in any given Big Battle. Being able to coordinate and communicate effectively handling them all across a battlefield while your group is spread out and working on separate parts and pieces to the same overall problem and goal we believe will create a large degree of challenge.

That sounds awesome! I can't wait!

[GrimbleGrumble]

Sigh... So Turbine did go ahead and screw the pooch and is setting up the Battle of the Hornburg to allow bunches of random non-Rohirrim appear.

How about changing the the game to "LotR Inspired" since it is clearly no long actually based on LotR?

If you are such a stickler for canon, I would have figured that by now you would have either:

quit, because they have been breaking canon since day 1; or

quit complaining, because they have been breaking canon since day 1.

I believe that I am in the vast majority when I say that I'm happy that my Dwarf/Hobbit/Elf/Dale-man will be allowed to participate in the Battle for Helm's Deep. I can't imagine that people really exist who only think that Race of Man characters from the appropriate locations (what Rohan and maybe Gondor?) should get to enjoy this iconic battle. Why would they even bother making this expansion if only a minority of characters could participate?

On Topic, I am excited to give Big Battles a try, it sounds like it could be really fun, as long as the difficulty level is appropriate at cap.

[Saniko]

Sigh... So Turbine did go ahead and screw the pooch and is setting up the Battle of the Hornburg to allow bunches of random non-Rohirrim appear.

How about changing the the game to "LotR Inspired" since it is clearly no long actually based on LotR?

Limit yourself to participating on a man toon? Or pretend your hobbit/dwarf/Elf is having a very vivid dream. :P

Just curious as to why so many people are entirely committed to the standard MMO group content (the holy trinity, tank/healer/dps) that has been used for over a decade now [...snip...] and why so many people are completely writing off, dismissing, rejecting any effort to inject a different concept for end-game MMO gaming? I may eat my words & be completely let down, but can we just give it a chance before we all judge it?

I realize new ideas & changes to the normal routine at first can incite a riot or whatever, but come on, guys.

Hear hear! I feel like I'm the only one who thought the Erebor raids were a nice change from the kill-trash-then-kill-boss-then-loot scenario, which was getting stale to me. The "Big Battle" concept is pretty intriguing, and it sounds like a good fit for this particular chaotic battle. (Got a PS2 LOTR game that involves tipping ladders, running all over the place, dodging various projectiles, destroying catapults, and defending the door to the refugee cave, all while fighting Uruks + trolls.)

So no traditional instance cluster in HD. I am not surprised - but this is a bad thing. More players will leave the game. It is like with the Battles, you decided because those are instanced, you don't even need to bother working on an Instance Cluster. [...snip...] Yes I know the Battles are group content, but this is like if you decided to give mounted combat in RoR and then said "we have this great new thing, so we are deciding not to offer you any group content in the expansion this time".

Considering that they have x people developing a new system (not to mention class/housing revamps), I can't imagine they'd have the time and resources to also develop new, traditional instances simultaneously.

Beyond just raising the minimum requirements, I feel like this is going to need to come with significant engine optimisation. So yeah. Is that a thing?

Sapience commented on that on the first page, post #5 and beyond.

[Asterotg]

Maybe I overread something, then im sorry, but is there a definitiv number of players for this new contend, like 12 players for a raid, or will it allow x-y players with scaled difficulty and rewards according to numbers? I know, that il will be soloable. I am talking about the eqivalent of the new raidcontent.

I do not want to sound antisocial, but I woud hate to have to try to find 50 people with top skill and gear for the difficult parts of those battles. As far as I know, there woud not be 50 T2 raiders left on my server.

[Grimdi]

Maybe I overread something, then im sorry, but is there a definitiv number of players for this new contend, like 12 players for a raid, or will it allow x-y players with scaled difficulty and rewards according to numbers? I know, that il will be soloable. I am talking about the eqivalent of the new raidcontent.

Each BB instance will have a solo version (which allows up to two players inside). Some of them will also have options for 3, 6 or 12 player versions (like skirmishes). The instances will always be level 95 (or current level cap?), and low-level players will have their stats upscaled accordingly. The difficulty, as I understand it, is only determined by the selected group-option (again, like skirmishes), with the larger group versions adding extra mechanics. The type of rewards depend on how good you finish as a group, and the actual reward you get is scaled to your real character-level (so e.g. if you get a 100% victory on a level 65 upscaled char you'd get a level 65 symbol of the elder king, while a real 95 char would get the level 95 version). I assume like all instances you can underman BB instances if you want.

[Jureon]

Hey, Sapience can you give us some kind of example of a big battle ? Like what are the possible objectives during it (destroy siege ladders, hold points, repair gate) ? thanks.

[Hiritier]

Beside SA, FA... the 20 QA talked about some kind of "medalion". I guess it would be like the medalion of Moria. So what is it used for? To barter set like medalion of Moria? Or we still have to unlock some "big battle" then use medalions + seals to barter for the end-game set like now?

Another thing concern me is: Will there be a motivation to run big battle? Can the reward encourage players? Example atm, many people feel like they have no motivation to farm the Wildermore dailies, to run instances and raids. The reward is too random, and most of the time not worth.

[Kongas]

So... will this be the killing blow to the few remaining raiding kins and raid focused players?


I am honestly extremely disappointed, but can't say I'm surprised.

As an officer of a small but growing Kin I'm quite excited by the idea of all of us being able to go into iconic battles together. Maybe the upscaled characters will 'drag down' the quality of rewards we earn by limiting objectives achieved but it sounds like it'll be fun.

[Arwen1793]

I'm not sure if I like these changes. What is the point of leveling a character to 95 if a bunch of level 10s and such can join the Battle? What happens when a level 10 gets a gold 95 Armour from the loot while a true 95 can use it? Not sure how that all works I guess, but I don't think I'll be buying the expansion nor play the game anymore if this happens. I like the challenge and scaled teirs, not babying new players to make it easier on them. Being level cap was supposed to be what most people strived for, to do the big raids, the challenges and beat bosses as a group and get nice rewards. Just seems like you guys are throwing that all out the window here. Us long time players are getting laughed at and becoming more frustrated with the game. Ask any 85 and you will see how frustrated the people are. I know creating Helms Deep would be a challenge since it is a huge battle, but I think you guys could of made it a little better by not making level cap players look useless.

[Aisolon]

Wh-what is this strange and unusual sensation? Excitement for future LOTRO content? I... I don't know how to deal with this.

Exactly my thoughts at first.

A good "20 questions thread" for my part. Finally some real answers on the new expansion.

It certainly made me curious.

Now all I hope is that it's delivered in a good way and bug free.

Better make it take 2 months longer, than early with lots of problems to it.

This thread certainly got me interested.

[Solien]

If by "traditional instances", you mean "dungeon crawls" (tower crawls?), it would seem there are no plans for such. Setups where you have a set roster of trash, then a boss that drops cool lewt, then more trash, then another boss, and so on to the Big Instance Boss would, based on Sapience's comments, be gone the way of the dodo.

I'm not sure how you can come to this conclusion when both the Q&A answers and posts by Sapience and Jdub have said this isn't the case.

Also, as a general point, not in response to the post above but to other posts in this thread: we've heard and heard and heard about how the game is dumbed down and people aren't forced to learn their class roles in a group while leveling anymore, and that's resulted in poor quality of players at the level cap. Now there's a mechanic which seems to be perfect for helping newer players learn how to play in a group...and people are complaining about it. NIMBY much?

I'll say it again: elitist players complain about the bads, elite players help other players get better.