20 Questions – Big Battles

[phobossion]

Each quest has a medal rating given to you upon completion. All quests support all levels of medal (bronze, silver, gold, platinum). Each Big Battle instance has multiple quests associated with it (1 primary, several randomized secondaries). The quests in a solo/duo version of a space and the quests in each of the various group versions of a space are different and unique quests, even though they may share common elements. So platinums are available in solo, and bronzes are available in raids.

Think of medals like a letter grade (A - Platinum, B - Gold, C - Silver, D - Bronze). Each time you do that quests you get a grade. When you do that same quest again, you get a new grade based on how well you did that time.

The primary reward system does have a method for 'trading up' where we allow you to choose whether you're going to get a random bronze medal quality class specific item or instead get a little more progress towards getting a silver item. So you can either cash out or turn your pennies into dollars, in a manner of speaking. As of now you can turn bronze into silver progress, and silver into gold, but you cannot turn gold into platinum. The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up a lot of the easier ones.

Also as of now, a platinum is a platinum is a platinum, doesn't matter where you got it for it all counts the same. Numbers are being watched through playtest and iteration to see if that needs to have a slide based on group size but at the moment it doesn't feel like it does.



Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

Like this! Thanks for info.

[DanteIL]

Soooo... after mulling all this over I think I've decided there is one aspect of this that I definitely don't like........


..



..



...


and that's the name: "Big Battles"

Really? In the 20Q it said that this name was provisional. I really hope it changes!

So here's my suggestion: Hold a naming contest -- allow people to submit names, pick the 10 or so ones that you guys would approve of, and then let the community vote for the favorite, with some appropriate prize. There's got to be enough creativity around here to come up with something better than Big Battles.

[Frisco]

Definitely looks like a bit of fun for new and casual players (though new mechanics always sound cooler than they actually are). It's also pretty explicit confirmation that Turbine is shutting the door on traditional end-game group content that many of us have come to know and love over the last 6+ years. While they may intend to revive the concept in the future, having to regrow the entire raid community from scratch will not be cost effective.

Big Battles will be a critical success, since it will be the proverbial "only game in town". But I foresee yet another grouping ghost town come Spring 2014, like RoR has been since June (except Sambrog, of course).

Again, though, I'm glad they finally cut ties with endgame grouping and decided to put all their limited resources into making one playstyle happy instead of making all of them equally unhappy. I hope you all have a blast!

[Gladr]

Each quest has a medal rating given to you upon completion. All quests support all levels of medal (bronze, silver, gold, platinum). Each Big Battle instance has multiple quests associated with it (1 primary, several randomized secondaries). The quests in a solo/duo version of a space and the quests in each of the various group versions of a space are different and unique quests, even though they may share common elements. So platinums are available in solo, and bronzes are available in raids.

Think of medals like a letter grade (A - Platinum, B - Gold, C - Silver, D - Bronze). Each time you do that quests you get a grade. When you do that same quest again, you get a new grade based on how well you did that time.

The primary reward system does have a method for 'trading up' where we allow you to choose whether you're going to get a random bronze medal quality class specific item or instead get a little more progress towards getting a silver item. So you can either cash out or turn your pennies into dollars, in a manner of speaking. As of now you can turn bronze into silver progress, and silver into gold, but you cannot turn gold into platinum. The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up a lot of the easier ones.

Also as of now, a platinum is a platinum is a platinum, doesn't matter where you got it for it all counts the same. Numbers are being watched through playtest and iteration to see if that needs to have a slide based on group size but at the moment it doesn't feel like it does.



Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

This sounds awesome! It also sounds like Turbine is listening to the community and trying to give them what they want.

[TheREALify]

Good Morning, Mr. Barry. Thank you for your most informative response. I appreciate the time you've taken to provide it.

Each quest has a medal rating given to you upon completion. All quests support all levels of medal (bronze, silver, gold, platinum). Each Big Battle instance has multiple quests associated with it (1 primary, several randomized secondaries). The quests in a solo/duo version of a space and the quests in each of the various group versions of a space are different and unique quests, even though they may share common elements. So platinums are available in solo, and bronzes are available in raids.

Think of medals like a letter grade (A - Platinum, B - Gold, C - Silver, D - Bronze). Each time you do that quests you get a grade. When you do that same quest again, you get a new grade based on how well you did that time.

The primary reward system does have a method for 'trading up' where we allow you to choose whether you're going to get a random bronze medal quality class specific item or instead get a little more progress towards getting a silver item. So you can either cash out or turn your pennies into dollars, in a manner of speaking. As of now you can turn bronze into silver progress, and silver into gold, but you cannot turn gold into platinum. The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up a lot of the easier ones.

Also as of now, a platinum is a platinum is a platinum, doesn't matter where you got it for it all counts the same. Numbers are being watched through playtest and iteration to see if that needs to have a slide based on group size but at the moment it doesn't feel like it does.



Promotions are the advancement system of Big Battles. We look at only the highest medal earned for each Big Battle quest and give you a certain amount of points to spend in a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances. A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

You've laid out quite a few new items here which bring up additional questions.

In regards to the Medals players will receive you said:

we allow you to choose whether you're going to get a random bronze medal quality class specific item

I assume by this you're talking about Legendary Items? If you're talking about armor can I further assume there is some mechanism in place that would prevent players from randomly being given the same item twice.

You went on to say:

As of now you can turn bronze into silver progress, and silver into gold, but you cannot turn gold into platinum. The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up a lot of the easier ones.

I like the idea of upgrading rewards but the key will be in the conversion rates. If it's 25 Bronze to 1 Silver I would consider the system more lip-service than a functional means of obtaining greater rewards. However I do not like that I cannot upgrade to Platinum. This seems like nothing more than a means to exclude solo players from the "greatest rewards".

In regards to the grading system you mentioned:

a new tree related to the new mechanics and gameplay within Big Battle instances.

So Big Battles comes with a new 'skill' tree in addition to the Class Skill tree that all classes will be getting? And Promotions are the currency we spend on this new tree?

A platinum medal gets you more points to spend than a bronze medal. Given that we only look at the highest earned, and not lifetime earn, doing the group spaces in addition to solo will provide more points available to specialize and improve.

It sounds like there will be a variety of scoring 'categories' on which players will be graded A - D (Platinum - Bronze). If a player scored a D in a particular category they would be able to obtain a higher score by attempting the same content and 'doing better'. This seems very much like the 'achievements' system in Portal, though I'm sure it's analogous to systems in many games.

However, it sounds like there will be 'categories' that will be exclusive to group content. Which is to say that a purely solo player will never have an opportunity to obtain points to spend in the new tree from those 'categories' gated by group content. As such a solo player will never be able to max-out their new tree or obtain as much progress or improvement to their character as will a grouped player. Would you characterize this as a fair assessment?

[Mirnir]

Soooo... after mulling all this over I think I've decided there is one aspect of this that I definitely don't like........
...
and that's the name: "Big Battles"
...
So here's my suggestion: Hold a naming contest

Hmm... Sizable Scuffles?

[andracy]

So after 11 pages we learned that ... we need to go back to ToO and OD and finish all the deeds there since in one way or another will be the last true raid.
There is not anything more to say:
- the server freeze when we start Flight T2. Not even thinking about more players in big battles.
- scaling lvl 10 ppl up to 95, lacking experience and gear, i am sure that will be the next type of challenges in Turbine's version?!?
- no new old type content aka 3-6-12 man instances after we waited one year and we got the worst EVER raids and 6 man instance in Lotro's history (not gonna say anything about 3 man who was pretty decent except Webs's bugs who make CH almost impossible for some of us)

Obvious Turbine want to encourage the casual and new players to get imersed in the new universe. That will make:
1. lag - impossible to play
2. old players will be gone. I keep saying this and no one listen. Old players left or will leave soon since U9 the content have been seriously damaged.
Also not an word about RESCALING the actual instances so that they will not be able to be finished with 5 champs and an cappy? So at lvl 95 i will have 20k morale and the mobs will still put an dot on me of 100 damage (Sambrog for example)?

I am curious about big battles stuff. I am sure will be nice for a few days. No locks stuff will make it grindfest and Turbine will make another huge mistake after Durchest and BfE T1.

Not the things i wanted to hear though, i was really hoping that HD will make/be Lotro 2.0.

[GundamPilot018]

Thank you for answering some really great questions! I can't wait to hear more about "Big Battles".

[SvenNiscadae]

Definitely looks like a bit of fun for new and casual players (though new mechanics always sound cooler than they actually are). It's also pretty explicit confirmation that Turbine is shutting the door on traditional end-game group content that many of us have come to know and love over the last 6+ years. While they may intend to revive the concept in the future, having to regrow the entire raid community from scratch will not be cost effective.

I don't believe they said that there won't ever be anymore development of instances. Sapience said this system is just another way to present instance content. Honestly I don't think they could have created 3/6/12 mans for Western Rohan, just like they didn't do it explicitly for the Eastemnet. There aren't any 'bad guy hq's' so to speak in this region. The instanced content we got with RoR weren't in the region. Aside from the obvious Hobbit movie tie-in, it makes sense. (Though I would have loved an instance based on draugs or lathbears)

I wouldn't worry about not ever getting classic instance content again. This looks like a big undertaking and they need their instance staff to work on this for quality rather than spreading it out for quantity.

[Ferthcott]

Big Battles will be a critical success, since it will be the proverbial "only game in town". But I foresee yet another grouping ghost town come Spring 2014, like RoR has been since June (except Sambrog, of course).

Now, now, there will be a lot of grouping!

I mean, duoing.

In a solo version. Which will have to be completable on platinum level for any class, which means it will be a platinum faceroll for some classes, unless "2013 class revamp" is in fact "2013 class homogenization". I doubt BB will detect your class and adjust accordingly...

I mean, it's not like a choice between easy, short and lock-free "duo-in-solo" instances and a raid version that can take about an hour is anything new. We've already seen it in scaled BG t1, in Hytbold Trains, in Sambrog etc etc etc. That duo-in-solo is actually half-legalized Farms of Norcroft

If Platinum is unavailable for duoing-solo, then it's at least one issue less. But that "Platinum task for class A offering only Silver difficulty for class B" is still a problem.




On unrelated note, I really, really hope one extremely annoying thing from Flight is improved for Big Battles. If eg. 10+ mobs are spawning/running together give them separate boss-like portraits or something else that makes them actually possible to select by other means than frantically tabbing through or clicking at that mess of limbs, hoping it will stick. Sure, it adds to challenge, forces to look at the actual mobs and generally to pay attention - but only when they are not a cluster... mess of limbs occupying the same square meter. When that happens - and it happens, seeing how mobs are not familiar with a concept of a personal space - and there's little time to carefully tab through, it's not really challenging. It's just random quirk of a limited engine. There's a lot of other means to keep player's attention glued to the field, that do not require to involve human centipede.

[Milithion]

Shouldn't that be an effective level 72 sword, as the player was upgraded 9.5 times higher from 10 to 95?

you just add the levels missing.

char was level 10 befor, so add 85 levels to the item levels
so you get a level 92 item if the item was level 7 before.

[Frisco]

I don't believe they said that there won't ever be anymore development of instances. Sapience said this system is just another way to present instance content. Honestly I don't think they could have created 3/6/12 mans for Western Rohan, just like they didn't do it explicitly for the Eastemnet. There aren't any 'bad guy hq's' so to speak in this region. The instanced content we got with RoR weren't in the region. Aside from the obvious Hobbit movie tie-in, it makes sense. (Though I would have loved an instance based on draugs or lathbears)

I wouldn't worry about not ever getting classic instance content again. This looks like a big undertaking and they need their instance staff to work on this for quality rather than spreading it out for quantity.

I don't doubt that they may *intend* to do it again, but the game has been bleeding endgame grouping-centric folk since shortly after the Erebor raids launched. Turbine has stated that these players make up a single-digit percentage of the population. Since that number is certain to go down in the next 1.5 years without a new instance cluster, I can't imagine they will get the green light to spend money (they've also said that the traditional instance cluster is some of the most expensive content to create, outside new mechanics) producing something that *might* bring back the type of player they've lost over the last 2 years.

If there ever was a time to reverse the trend we've been seeing with RoR, it would be *in* HD, not after.

[Hiritier]

So after 11 pages we learned that ... we need to go back to ToO and OD and finish all the deeds there since in one way or another will be the last true raid.
There is not anything more to say:
- the server freeze when we start Flight T2. Not even thinking about more players in big battles.
- scaling lvl 10 ppl up to 95, lacking experience and gear, i am sure that will be the next type of challenges in Turbine's version?!?
- no new old type content aka 3-6-12 man instances after we waited one year and we got the worst EVER raids and 6 man instance in Lotro's history (not gonna say anything about 3 man who was pretty decent except Webs's bugs who make CH almost impossible for some of us)

Obvious Turbine want to encourage the casual and new players to get imersed in the new universe. That will make:
1. lag - impossible to play
2. old players will be gone. I keep saying this and no one listen. Old players left or will leave soon since U9 the content have been seriously damaged.
Also not an word about RESCALING the actual instances so that they will not be able to be finished with 5 champs and an cappy? So at lvl 95 i will have 20k morale and the mobs will still put an dot on me of 100 damage (Sambrog for example)?

I am curious about big battles stuff. I am sure will be nice for a few days. No locks stuff will make it grindfest and Turbine will make another huge mistake after Durchest and BfE T1.

Not the things i wanted to hear though, i was really hoping that HD will make/be Lotro 2.0.

Idk why people feel so serious about level 10 joining the big battle. Guys, if you dont want them to join, then dont invite them. Its THAT simple. In the other hand, if you want to train your newbie kinnies, or friends, introduce them to group contents, teach them how to play their class, then this is a great chance because both of the newbies were helped and the veterans that help have the reward they want/need for their level. Turbine give you a system that could encourage high level help training the newbies AND progress their own gear (with medalion and drop scale by player level) the same time. At least they've listened some of suggest in the suggestion box.

We didnt know anything about the new big battle yet, so i wouldnt too desperate. The "instance cluster" is just a way to call a "co-operate activity", where you need team work and understand the mechanic to win. The new big battle was said has both. You can do it in duo, in group of 3-6 or 12 man. They have mechanic depend on group scale... Actually, from what they said I think about something like FoS (Ex: "The way the player interacts with the objects and environment in meaningful ways." -> remind me about the valves. Or "the group will have to split up and be in several locations"). It's just like a different type of "instance cluster". Maybe there is a little difference in the code, but the main point i think they call it "big battle" is... promotion. They want a new name, make people curious...

However, if that's all about the mechanic, if you only need to click on object at the right time, i think this will fell many raiders, just like the FoS did. It's too easy. Hopefully not.

[Silmelin]

Suggestion for a name for "Big Battles":


Please make it one word instead of two so people won't shorten it to a pair of letters. There's enough of those around as it is Besides, in Sweden, "BB" is the part of the hospital where babies are born

Anyway, a one word name would be awesome. Like Skirmish, Instance, and Raid

Maybe just "Battle" would work?

[Aronas31]

I like the concept, but without locks and sounding as if rare items can be gotten by seals this really sucks since it will be a grind effort to get anything worthwhile. I feel as if Middle Earth has been run over by a bunch of people who think everyone on the team should get a trophy no matter the effort they put into something. Real raiders are in a league like the NFL and Turbine has come in and said we need High School teams to compete with them so we are changing all the rules so they can also get a chance at the Superbowl.

[Hiritier]

Oh, and i do think we need lock, not instance - oh sorry - battle lock, but loot/medalion lock so people dont just farm the easiest one.

[zalladi]

If you say there will be multiple 'Big Battles' that detail the important parts of the Hornburg battle, then perhaps call it a 'Campaign'?

'Big Battle' just seems too colloquial.

[Elderban]

After mulling it over this morning, I can understand why Turbine is going in this direction and understand their frustrations.

It all comes down to farming. After the last set of instances came out, people ran them, but then gravitated towards the easiest content to run. It happens every single time, with every single expansion. With Riders of Rohan, the latest instance being farmed is Sambrog. Before that is was the School/Library. Before that..well, I don't know, because I wasn't really paying attention. BUT, all I ever see now in GLFF as of late is "X/12 Sambrog farm". Don't see many calls for any other instances, not even the newer ones - except for the occasional School/Library farms.

So, why create new instances if people are only going to go where the path of least resistance is?

The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up [Sambrog?]* a lot of the easier ones.

See, farming. I'm actually happy to see this statement.

Of course, I am sure there are players/kins that will find "workarounds", but...what can you do.

* Sambrog added on my part.

[ColorSpecs]

Agreed. I would have been extremely disappointed to have to play a session play character during the Battle of the Hornburg rather than the character(s) I have spent years playing. It may not exactly fit in with the lore, but at the end of the day this is a game with the primary purpose of providing entertainment, not providing a literal rendition of Tolkien's works. I am very thankful that gameplay considerations have triumphed here rather than a dogmatic adherence to lore.

If it weren't for that pesky professor and those little fur-footed bastiches of his, then I could do whatever I want!

The truth is, without the lore, this game isn't even a tier 2 MMO. Dance with the gal that brung ya.

[andracy]

Idk why people feel so serious about level 10 joining the big battle. Guys, if you dont want them to join, then dont invite them. Its THAT simple. In the other hand, if you want to train your newbie kinnies, or friends, introduce them to group contents, teach them how to play their class, then this is a great chance because both of the newbies were helped and the veterans that help have the reward they want/need for their level. Turbine give you a system that could encourage high level help training the newbies AND progress their own gear (with medalion and drop scale by player level) the same time. At least they've listened some of suggest in the suggestion box......

Mate, at level 10 you just learn to use map and where is quest log. To join an lvl 10 new player with a lv95 hardcore raider will not be fun for each one since one have no clue about anything and the veteran is ... veteran, also lack of skills and experience. No one will take them to learn. YOu want to learn? You do lvl 20 Sambrog, great for started. How many skills you have at lvl 10?

WE NEED LOCKS. If not, will be an farm farm farm like you see since U9. And all will get bored in one month. Farm and grind, new Lotro words since U9. Who the hell invented golden stuff anyway was verrrrrrrry smart indeed.

And WE NEED RAIDS. This is not raiding, is ... experiment, hybrid, i dont care. But we need raids. With out raids, lotro will die. And it seem we will not have raids for long time.

SO when HD will be lauched, what we will have at begining? Leveling until 95 and than? Skirmishes? Old raids? If battles will not be launched from start, (anyone remember Rohan launch?), than Turbine will really pay for these experiments.

Combined with skill tree ... all these ... pandas anyone? We are only missing instant aggro and instant healing like WoW and we are good to go mates.

[TheNightAngel]

@The Blues

Will we see Big Battle game play before release?

[Elderban]

I like the idea of upgrading rewards but the key will be in the conversion rates. If it's 25 Bronze to 1 Silver I would consider the system more lip-service than a functional means of obtaining greater rewards. However I do not like that I cannot upgrade to Platinum. This seems like nothing more than a means to exclude solo players from the "greatest rewards".

JWBarry answered this in his statement. "The best rewards must be earned by doing the hardest tasks, not grinding and saving up a lot of the easier ones."

This will eliminate the farming the "easiest" instances (like people do now - *cough*Sambrog*cough*) and players entering the instance with multiple characters and reaping the rewards while one character does all of the work (multi-box farming).

You can still earn the platinum tokens solo, you just can't sit back and expect them to come to you.

I think this is something that the hard-core players have screamed about for years. Now the ones that actually do the work will reap the rewards.

[Crell_1]

Will promotions [NOT TO be confused with Battlefield Promotions], like audacity ONLY affect our characters while engaged in Big Battles?

[MrWarg]

If it weren't for that pesky professor and those little fur-footed bastiches of his, then I could do whatever I want!

The truth is, without the lore, this game isn't even a tier 2 MMO. Dance with the gal that brung ya.

I didn't say that we should be able to do whatever we want. You are taking my point to an extreme to make your own point. I was simply saying that in this particular case gameplay won out over a dogmatic approach to lore observation. I happen to think that was the right decision in this circumstance. Each situation will be different and should be taken on its own merits. You are within your rights to disagree of course, but I still hold to the position that it was the correct decision and I am glad Turbine decided to go in that direction.

[Hiritier]

Mate, at level 10 you just learn to use map and where is quest log. To join an lvl 10 new player with a lv95 hardcore raider will not be fun for each one since one have no clue about anything and the veteran is ... veteran, also lack of skills and experience. No one will take them to learn. YOu want to learn? You do lvl 20 Sambrog, great for started. How many skills you have at lvl 10?

Look like your kinship does not offen to help newbie. This is still a much better way for veterans to train newbies than level 85 doing Samborg level 20, 1 shot everything while the level 20 follow him, doing nothing. The veteran get loot for his level, and the newbie too. Yes you dont have many skill at level 10, but this is not just about level 10, its about a group content for all level range, from 10-95, where you can improve your skills by time. Where maybe a level 30 but have run it 10 time could do better a level 60 but have no idea about the mechanic if the battle. They have alot more chance to find a group with this new mechanic. Example, I am a hunter level 24. I cannot find enough people for Samborg level 24, but someone on GLFF is looking for ANYONE for a Samborg level 40. Atm I cannot join them. But with this new mechanic, I could. A duo level 10, a group of 6 level 20-24 (this is not much different than a Samborg level 20 as you suggest), or even a group of level 28-56 together. Definitely more chance.

Again, if you dont want to group and teach them, then dont do that. But there will be other who willing to, just like someone posted above, an activity which all kinship can enjoy and get loot together.

PS: A battle for newbie to learn their role is nice, however, we also need a battle that could satisfy the raiders. A battle like FoS is good for practise. You dont need many (class) skills for it. Its all about pull the valves and dps the fire. Its simple, BUT, in there you learn how to follow the lead, dont stand in the fire, dont kill yourself while mob's reflecting, control your dps, dont stand infront of the warriors... I do agree that we NEED a difficult group content for raiders. It could be called "raid" or "big battle" or anything, but in sum, it's a "group content". I hope the devs can make it.